Necromancer room for improvement

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>I do one of these posts every now and then on the state of the necro as I see 'em... necro's are doing pretty well now but there is still room for improvement.  This is all gonna be high level stuff (the final 14 levels) since I haven't been below 50 since we still had to contend with the pet dance.  We've can work around alot of stuff but we still aren't right.  I used to have some real problems with our utility vs. other classes but in general I think we're just about right with one exception (and it'll be noted).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1)  Level 48 Grim Terror:</STRONG>  What can I say?  This pet, as far as implementation of the necromancer is concerned, is still broken.  In the final tier our diseased servant can equal her damage single target.  In AoE she can do a bit more damage than the servant but the assassin/nighshade will outdamage her in all situations when owner buffed.  The grim embrace spell has a great secondary effect but it's not worth the 40-50% cut in damage compared to the assassins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note also our offensive buffs raise cast skills and focus of the pets and the defensive buff decreases intelligence.  Haste has no effect on the grim pet, the only benefit out pet buffs effectively have for the grim is the chance to proc clawing of the soul (at half the rate the assassin pet would).  If the cast skills do decrease the resist chance (and all my testing says the gain is too low to be statistically significant), it doesn't increase her hit rate to anywhere near the assassins damage against high yellow/orange mobs.  Most players try not to fight anything above yellow anyways since their personal hit rates are laughably low.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note also the grim still runs into melee range within three casts, she has to stay out of range to survive AoE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My solution would be to add something to the pet buffs that increase the warlock pets damage to a level greater than the current assassin pet.  Haste and DPS increases don't work since she doesn't melee.  My suggestion is a large proc that has a chance to go off on successful spellcasts (like dynamism)... that would increase her damage while being different than the conjuror intelligence increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>2)  Level 48 Revivication:</STRONG>  Spell still does not scale up with upgrades, it's always the same rez percentage no matter the upgrade level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>3)  Level 50 Torrential Plague:</STRONG>  Still not enough damage, needs another increase to somewhat make up for the loss in Lich damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>4)  Level 52 Drawing of Souls:</STRONG>  Lots of problems with this spell... 2 second cast time is too long, it should be a 1 second caster like its sister spell Horrific Mark, the resist rate seems to be very high, too.  I like the debuff and that's what I generally use it for but it's debuff is equivelent to the mark line so should have the same cast time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flayers Soul is a very, very bad buff.  I don't believe increases to cast skill really do much if anything but the biggie of that spell is the 14% increase to max power... problem is that spell has a 30 second duration, how long does it take to regen 14% power on a post 52 player (over 550 power)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unstoppable Soul is a bit better a buff than Flayers but it also has the same problems with that increase to max health that Flayers has for max power.  If this is cast and then an Exchange Life is cast on top of it you can get the benefit from the increased max but it has that pesky 30 second duration too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Servile Soul doesn't scale with level like all other dumbfire pets do (stays level 52 forever), this spell loses its effectiveness very quickly since dumbfires just can't hit stuff much higher than them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My solutions would be increase the buff durations by one minute (90 seconds total) since these spells are gated in use by the RNG.  I'd say change the Flayer's skill buffing but I think eventually what buffing those do will have to be addressed and given a larger benefit since it's hurting alot of classes.  Fix the Servile Soul so it levels with owner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>5)  Level 53 Voice of the Departed:</STRONG>  See #1, I love this spell but it just doesn't do our second DPS pet any good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>6)  Level 54 Rending Fury:</STRONG>  This spell hardly upgrades by spell quality and does nothing for the warlock pet (again, see post #1).  I suppose in theory it's a decent buff since it adds DPS as well as haste but upgrading from adept 1 to adept 3 should give you more than a 3% total gain (or thereabouts).  This buff should also be a targetable buff with benefits that don't step on the enchancer or bards toes.  Necromancers are the only mage without damage shields or targetable concentration buffs.  I don't know what I'd make this but it should certainly have an improved upgrade path and wider useage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>7)  Level 58 Consumption:</STRONG>  Two minute recast is way to long for a 15 second duration spell.  Again, see #1 and cast speed.  Grimmy can get this spell off maybe three times in its duration compared to either other pet hasted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drop the recast down to 45-60 seconds like the other pet quick buffs so we can use this more than once in a rare while.  Its use is gated in a long fight by the agro it'll generate anyways so let us use this ancient spell more often than every two minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Level 59 Deathly Coil:</STRONG>  The coil line still needs improvement, when we took the lich nerf many of us lost between 70 and 100 dps which was fine since it was going to be rolled into the other spells... problem is that deathly coil got around a 5 DPS increase, way too low.  There seems to be a fear of giving DoT's greater than 200 damage, in this case, the increase is warranted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My solution is to increase this spell by at least 100 damage per tic, it still wouldn't get us back to our old damage but it would keep our long duration DoT from being laughably weak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's all I can think of right now, if you have any issues that I didn't address or you flat out don't agree with me, post away!</DIV>

[Danter]

<P>Good post, thanks for taking the time to do it.</P> <P>Some things I've noticed, too:</P> <P>I've seen that the level 60 Adept 3 Nightshade fails to out-damage the Master 1 Assassin pet in some situations.  This should never be the case, so the Nightshade needs a boost.   (Master 1 46 spell should equal App 3 of 60 spell, not Adept 3)</P> <P>The warlock pet is worthless.  Your reasons sum it up completely.  I like the idea of adding a Dynamism type proc to our offensive stance.  That's a really good idea.</P> <P>Our buffs are kind of weak compared to other mages, maybe make the ones we have more effective to balance this out.</P> <P>DDs are always better than DoTs.  I'm not sure either why the Devs make DoTs so pathetic.  Half the time in fights, the DoTs never last their full duration.  Our DoTs need another boost across the board to make up for the lich nerf.</P> <P>Servile Soul needs to scale to be effective.  A level 52 dumbfire pet vs a level 60 mob = a pet doing nothing.</P> <P> </P>

[keikomon]

<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Once again, another great post El Chup!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I would love to see these spell's fixed and/or even looked at by the Dev's. Since the lich nerf, some of our other spells needs an adjustment.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Kikko</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Kithicor</FONT></DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>I haven't done any nightshade/shadowy assassin testing so don't really know.  The comparison gets a little tricky with pets since they scale with level and a master SA fighting a 59 mob compared to an ad3 nightshade fighting a 59 mob may justify the lower level pet doing a bit more damage than the higher one.  Pets always seem to do around what the one they replaced does for a few levels.</P> <P>I'd also like to see a bit more of an undead distribution, once you get control undeath there are really only two zones that you'd actually use this in (maybe less).  I don't mind not all zones having undead but a few that we level in post 55 would be nice.  Come to think of it, I can only think of Silent City as a place a necro would be xp'ing where there are undead post-55 so may be worse than I thought.</P>

[Eirgo]

<P>Great list.  </P> <P>I also find the Drawing of Souls heal spell Soothing Soul to be a bit weak.  When soloing, the 500pt heal over 16 secs doesnt even touch our tank pets massive hp, and in groups it is rarely going to go noticed.  While not all together useless, I think it could stand at least a 50% increase and maybe a reduction in the 2 sec cast time.</P> <DIV>Only other thing I  can think of off the top of my head is pet pathing.  I know it isnt necro specific, so may not belong in this post, but it frustrates me to no end and effects my dps.  Whether it is my pet pushing mobs into walls making them untargettable (any dungeon), or my pet pathing way out of the way to get to a mob standing right in front of him (Roost) - it is annoying and effects gameplay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>The only reason I didn't mention the drawing heal was because the devs were so adamant about our pet heals never being increased, figured that translated into our HoT staying at a comparable power.</P> <P>And that change to pet targeting with the pathing problems infuriates me, too.</P>

[ShadowedFlame]

<P>Nice post.... I'm only level 34, but its good to see where I'm headed.</P> <P>Regarding the concentration buffs, I've often wondered why Necros don't get a damage shield. I think a small lifetap damage shield would be quite in line with the necro way. Something like the hit for 14 heal for 4 pet damage shield. Would probably never fly though, as I think it would heal too much. Maybe a small damage shielf with a mini lifetap proc.</P> <P>Did 3 levels in Runnyeye last night with a good group and did pet comparisons between the app 1 Shadowy Stalker and Grim Thulian. Honestly, I can't see any reason to take the Thulian  beyond apprentice 1. It will probably be the last time I cast the spell. The stalker out dps'd  it by a long shot (nearly 50% if I am to believe eq companion) and didn't die quite as fast from the Evil Eye's nukes which would indicate quite a lot more hitpoint to me, I suppose I could get them murdered and find out the hitpoints. Pretty much the same story as the Grim Spellbinder. I'm not sure what the point is of this spell line, but they need serious work.</P> <P>Anyhow, thought I would post the point of view of someone below level 50. </P> <P>As a sidenote, I wish some spells would have been left scaling to level. Pet heals are sadly outdated by the time you get a new one. I'm glad I took transfer life master II, at least now I have a chance at stopping my pets death.</P>

[KBern]

Great post, lets hope they read it.

[XBr]

<P>I think you hit everything I'd want changed. PM'ed Raijinn to ask for sticky.</P> <P> </P>

[rusty00]

<P>Very nice post EL, I agree we are better but still much room for improvment. With our re-cast times I think our dmg scale is not keeping up with lvls. I really am doing that much more dmg at 53 than at 48 or so. Maybe a little. I think part of the soulution is our re-cast times. Drawing of Souls is a pain, too slow and resists too much. You would think with the complexity of the spell and the little affect the parent spell actually has, it would at least not resist. I frequently play with a Conj of my same lvl or within one, his pet owns, it does twice the dps as my adpt3. His personal dmg is close too. Its kinda emmbrassing. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Fighting grouped mobs with the Drawing of Souls AoE helps a bit but still lacking in dps. But...I still like my Necro.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Rusttin Blackheart</P> <P>Mistmoore</P>

[Za]

Great post El. I have to agree 100% with your solutions.But I fear that if they ever actually fixed everything you mention, they'd have to turn around and nerf some stuff. I'd be happy if they just:- Fixed the warlock pet to be as effective in AoE as our scout is vs single targets.- Fix Survile Soul to level up correctly.- Extend the duration on the DoS buffs to a full minute.- Reduce the consumption timer to 60-90 seconds. 60 prefered.- Change the Rending line to proc an encounter AoE instead of the DPS booster, and make it apply to all currently summoned pets.- & lastly I'd really love it if they changed the coil line to act like the old Splurt (or whatever the spelling was) spells, ie... they last for x number of tick, but do a growing amount of damage each time... 20, 40, 80, 160, 320, & 640 on finale. This would also really make you not want to recast the spell before the end, takes it out of the lich rotation... which really isn't an issue anymore but still.

[KBern]

<P>At 58, I have removed Servile Soul from my hot key bar and just leave it in my spell book since I have no reason to use that spell anymore.</P> <P>Very sad since I enjoy that graphic of the swarm pet a lot.</P>

[El Chupacabr]

Overall, the changes I proposed were very small and wouldn't be that big an increase in damage, just a change in the number of options we have grouped.  That lich damage was s'posed to reroute (somewhat) into our other spells but as it's painfully clear, it hasn't.  If it could be moved into the rot, affliction and blight lines it would put us back where we should be, unfortunately that just hasn't happened.

[Handleba]

It was splurt and I would definately like to see that spell either added to the game or replace the coil line.<div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

The only problem I'd have with a line like splurt is that it would be hitting that final tic right when the first dumbfire despawned... lots of agro there.

[Sarkoris]

<P>Good post mate. I have to agree. Why are most of our cast times so long. Its hard enough getting a dot to land and do much damage before the mob is dead without having to sit through 2-3 second cast times.</P> <P>Grim really needs a stay at home command. Why does it insist on shuffling forward. Cast at max range. Good. Take a few steps forward. Stop that. Casts again (eventually). Shuffle forward again. It doesn't take long for the pet to be toe to toe with the mob, even if it isn't meleeing, eating barrages and aoe's. The pet should not engage the mobs at close range unless the mobs come to the pet, or out of power. I would also love to see the casting skill stats on the pet and spell list. What are they, 10 second cast with 3 hour recast. Come on, for something supposed to be our supreme dps pet, she is equalled by our tank pet and destroyed by the assassin pet. If the casting speed has to be so slow, then up the damage of the spell, I like your dynanism spell proc idea here Chub, allowing the pet to cast normal spells and get the benefits of some wild card damage like our melee pets. </P> <P>Dumb fire pets should be made immune to damage unless directly tragetted by a mob. This would stop us using them as an offtank pet, but would let them at least do some damage before dying to a CA. They are after all just a dot with a graphic representation. Stop killing our dots. Or if they are supposed to be so vunerable to mobs, give them the benefits of our pet buffs again.</P> <P>Dots, pale in comparision to dd's. Lets up the ante here guys. None of this 45-60 damage per tick. Lets get some 150+ a tick dots happening. Lets give us a reason to cast them rather than using them in our reduced lich proc cycle.</P> <P>Sark.   </P> <p>Message Edited by Sarkoris on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 AM</span>

[XBr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sarkoris wrote:<div></div> <p>Good post mate. I have to agree. Why are most of our cast times so long. Its hard enough getting a dot to land and do much damage before the mob is dead without having to sit through 2-3 second cast times. </p> <p><font color="66FF00">If you try playing a sorceror alt (I do), you'll find that our cast times are heaven compared to wizards or warlocks. We're on average the fastest-casting mage out there. If you group with an illusionist, you should remind them that you are the perfect target for their dynamism buff.</font> </p> Dumb fire pets should be made immune to damage unless directly tragetted by a mob. This would stop us using them as an offtank pet, but would let them at least do some damage before dying to a CA. They are after all just a dot with a graphic representation. Stop killing our dots. <font color="66FF00">Hmm, well our dumbfires are dots that can do 25,000 points of damage between the corpse and dogs. They're already immune to AE damage, it's only riposte or drawing direct aggro that can kill them. Given the damage they do, I'd say that's a pretty fair tradeoff. Get them behind the mob and they're near invulnerable.</font> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<div></div>Yeah, our personal cast times are great... just the one spell needs a fix, it's the warlock pet that has the horrible cast times. Edit:  Though I could see the blight line dropping to two second cast since it's so bloody slow on damage for an AoE spell. <div></div><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 PM</span>

[XBr]

<span><blockquote><hr> Edit:  Though I could see the blight line dropping to two second cast since it's so bloody slow on damage for an AoE spell. <div></div> <hr></blockquote>That one could change yes, 3 secs cast for not that much damage isn't great. But when I played my warlock last night and got used to 4 secs, 4 secs, 3 secs for the big damage spells, most necro stuff seems like lightning.</span><div></div>

[Sarkoris]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XBrit wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarkoris wrote:<BR> <P>Good post mate. I have to agree. Why are most of our cast times so long. Its hard enough getting a dot to land and do much damage before the mob is dead without having to sit through 2-3 second cast times.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>If you try playing a sorceror alt (I do), you'll find that our cast times are heaven compared to wizards or warlocks. We're on average the fastest-casting mage out there. If you group with an illusionist, you should remind them that you are the perfect target for their dynamism buff.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I do have a warlock alt which I play as well. But at least when there 3-4 second cast spells go off its for significant damage, When ours go of it ticks away for its 90-120 odd damage. if the mob dies quick the sorceror class has still done one big spell - we have done a tick or 2 for not much at all. Sadly I don't get to group with an Illusionist often :smileysad:</FONT></P> <P>Dumb fire pets should be made immune to damage unless directly tragetted by a mob. This would stop us using them as an offtank pet, but would let them at least do some damage before dying to a CA. They are after all just a dot with a graphic representation. Stop killing our dots.<BR><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>Hmm, well our dumbfires are dots that can do 25,000 points of damage between the corpse and dogs. They're already immune to AE damage, it's only riposte or drawing direct aggro that can kill them. Given the damage they do, I'd say that's a pretty fair tradeoff. Get them behind the mob and they're near invulnerable.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I was pretty sure on the AOE damage. Thanks for the confirmation. I have not raided lately due to work so hadn't confirmed this for myself. I usually try and position the dumbfires behind a mob but in a lot of the places I hunt solo, like Silent City, that doesn't mean the pets won't  take off at some stupid angle due to pathing, end up to the side of the mob and get creamed 5 seconds in. The full duration damage they can do is not the norm. Although I will have to check again since the one dead all dead has been removed.</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sark.<BR>

[Boran]

Nice post, would it be possible to stick something in about the pet pathing bug. Was killing cyclops the other night before doing AT and the pet spent most of its time randomly running around the area and not fighting.

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boran wrote:<BR>Nice post, would it be possible to stick something in about the pet pathing bug. Was killing cyclops the other night before doing AT and the pet spent most of its time randomly running around the area and not fighting.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You just did <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Romka]

What dont you like in warlock pet? You want it to be best pet for all situations? This is pet for AE damage. Im not sure what are you doing, but my warlock pet sometimes can burn up to 350-400DPS on group encounters (yea, on single targets its usually 100-150dps). But why do I have to use pet that supposed to be for group encounters on single mobs? If I have assasin pet that is doing ~250 dps on single mobs? Warlock pet is almost OK atm, the only problem is that her casting times are too high. Mobs die faster than she burns all her spells. All they need to do is lower casting time and this pet will be perfect. And once again, this is not pet for single targets, its for group encounters. <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

Also, I was messing around with Drawing of Souls last night and seemed to manage a 50% resist rate against yellow /con giants in PoF.  Really seems to be a high resist rate for a simple debuff spell like this (and I really don't like to recast it due to that 2 second cast and longish recast).

[Veadaa]

<P><U>Nice post El, It covers alot of the Issues I still see with the necromancer throughout the levels.</U></P> <P><U></U> </P> <P>Another Issue I see with the Necromancer I understand his ability to heal may not be perfect. The damage per second may not be perfect. Yet the necromancer still leaves a few things even in the lower levels a little dry. I am seeing Issues with group utility in groups that are using the necormancer as the main dps. I understand sustained DPS is the best in the game, it feels atleast behind the controls, yet if you ever played the necromancer of the orginal game(I'm not bashing their balancing issues) he brought alot more to a group then just damage and a patch heal. He was able to twitch others aswell as do damage and many other things. </P> <P>All I wish to see in that confusing rant there is more utility I have idea's but it's to tiring for me to tink atm i'll post em later. </P>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Romka wrote:<BR>What dont you like in warlock pet? You want it to be best pet for all situations? This is pet for AE damage. Im not sure what are you doing, but my warlock pet sometimes can burn up to 350-400DPS on group encounters (yea, on single targets its usually 100-150dps). But why do I have to use pet that supposed to be for group encounters on single mobs? If I have assasin pet that is doing ~250 dps on single mobs?<BR><BR>Warlock pet is almost OK atm, the only problem is that her casting times are too high. Mobs die faster than she burns all her spells. All they need to do is lower casting time and this pet will be perfect. And once again, this is not pet for single targets, its for group encounters.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Against groups my assassin pet outdamages the warlock too.  The warlock pet can easily fool parsers by hitting that big AoE relatively late in the fight, add up total damage and do the DPS calculation reletive to your fight start time and you'll see the warlock is not as good as you think she is.

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote: <blockquote>Against groups my assassin pet outdamages the warlock too.  The warlock pet can easily fool parsers by hitting that big AoE relatively late in the fight, add up total damage and do the DPS calculation reletive to your fight start time and you'll see the warlock is not as good as you think she is. </blockquote><div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats why I think they need to lower casting time for her spells. Assasin pet is always doing stable dps (usually 200-250... up to 350 if he procs booombastrike few times). But warlock can do from 50 to 400 dps... kinda weird. Also, as OP mentioned, our offensive stance doesnt give any benefit to caster pet. What these +skills do? Less resists against orange/red mobs? How many orange/red mobs have you seen at 60lvl? Just raid targets, that will burn this paper pet with first AE.</span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>I should throw in my need new pet models post, too:</P> <P>Let's break it on down:</P> <P>Grim Spellbinder:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Orc skelly <LI>Adept:  Black horned skelly <LI>Master:  Flaming black horned skelly</LI></UL> <P>Grim Thulian:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Black horned skelly <LI>Adept:  Flaming black horned skelly <LI>Master:  Green flamed skelly</LI></UL> <P>Grim Terror:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Flaming black horned skelly <LI>Adept:  Green flamed skelly <LI>Master:  Lamia</LI></UL> <P>Total warlock "pets", 9... total models, 5.</P> <P>Shadowy Stalker:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Smokey cloud <LI>Adept:  Black shadow <LI>Master:  Black shadow</LI></UL> <P>Shadowy Assassin:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Black shadow <LI>Adept:  Black shadow <LI>Master:  Ghostly skelly (I think)</LI></UL> <P>Total assassin "pets" (not counting nightshade, don't have enough data on him), 6... total models, 3.</P> <P>Undying Adherant:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Zombie <LI>Adept:  Zombie <LI>Master:  Zombie</LI></UL> <P>Rotting Thrall:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Zombie <LI>Adept:  Zombie <LI>Master:  Zombie</LI></UL> <P>Diseased servant:</P> <UL> <LI>Apprentice:  Zombie <LI>Adept:  Zombie <LI>Master:  Strangely stitched zombie</LI></UL> <P>Total fighter "pets", 9... total models, 2.</P> <P>Grand total, 24 pets with 10 total models... that's pretty weak any way you slice it.  Note that two of the models are the apprentice of the lowest pets, three master pets of the highest spells.  Players don't keep those two low apprentice spells for long if ever and the three master pets are pretty rare to come by leaving it at five total models most players will ever use.</P> <P>Five models in 52 levels with three distinct pet types for most players, that is a problem.  "When we get around to it" is a bit of a cop-out that really surprises me considering how hard the art team generally works on immersion type issues.  The lack of models really bothers most in the necro community and it sure doesn't seem like a big deal to associate a new model with a different pet.  I seem to remember it took a day for the art team to change the final swarm spell from rats to dogs and the master fighter pet from a zombie to a stitched zombie.</P> <P>It can't be that big a deal giving us a new mob appearance for our pets.</P>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote: <p>Shadowy Assassin:</p> <ul> <li>Apprentice:  Black shadow </li><li>Adept:  Black shadow </li><li>Master:  Ghostly skelly (I think)</li></ul><hr></blockquote>Shadowy Destroyer (m1) has same model as ad1/ad3... black boy =)</span><div></div>

[Xalmat]

In a PM I got from Lockeye. I must warn you that his wording is slightly out of context:<blockquote><HR>Lockeye:<BR>There's already changes that are going to take place for summoner pet appearances, but these things take a lot more time than the usual class balance and bug fixes.<HR></blockquote>In other words, pet appearances are getting another look, but for some reason it's going to take a long time before we actually see any changes.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xalmat wrote:<BR>In a PM I got from Lockeye. I must warn you that his wording is slightly out of context:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye:<BR>There's already changes that are going to take place for summoner pet appearances, but these things take a lot more time than the usual class balance and bug fixes. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In other words, pet appearances are getting another look, but for some reason it's going to take a long time before we actually see any changes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ya know, I am not a programmer but it seems to me that his is just blowing smoke up our collective hineys.</P> <P>It seems with Control Undead, we can make any undead model in game act as our pet and keep the same graphics, but take buffs, heals, respond to commands, etc.</P> <P>Why does changing the model take so long?<BR></P>

[Xalmat]

My best guess is that the team wants to make all-new models, rather than recycle existing models. However, if he's implying that, it's in a very round-about way.

[ShadowedFlame]

<P>_________</P> <P>My best guess is that the team wants to make all-new models, rather than recycle existing models. However, if he's implying that, it's in a very round-about way. </P> <P>_________</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm thinking that a good portion of that, at least I hope, will be animations as they can be time consuming. Heaven forbid we wind up with another model like ht ezombie that stands there, and for the most part you can't tell if its actually engaged in combat. It would be nice to see some decent animation. It hurts when you are in Runnyeye watching the clay mobs doing all the fancy fighter moves while your zombie stands there looking like it should be the clay blob.</P> <P> </P> <P>Regarding the Shadowy Stalker line: I think they got these models mixed up. When I got the spell at 32, the app1 pet looked awesome. Its a shame that that isn't the adept model. If I had to choose which was more "shadowy" I would definately pick the apprentice model, it definately harder to see than the "black-boy" as someone called him earlier. It would be nice to see those two switched.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ShadowedFlame on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 AM</span>

[jeanjuedi]

Just to add my 2cp, Drawing of Souls for me is almost worthless except for the debuff.  The long casting time (for a debuff), plus the resist rate, plus the rate at which we get the sub-spells is a bit of a negative for me.  I rarely use any of the subspells, unless trying to show off aoe dmg.  Every once on a while I will use unstoppable soul on the MT in a raid, and maybe Flayer's Soul on myself.  But Servile Soul does absolutely nothing past 55, the heal is minor, and the dot is...kinda cool.  But the rate at which we get those spells back in our spellbook is horrendous.  I use them less because I don't want to waste them lol...I do like the idea and originality of the spell though.

[Romka]

<div></div>Well, here is my "summary"... (sorry for my poor english, isnt my native language) ALL pets: <ul> <li>Either make them 100% immune to raid mob's AE abilities (same as you did to summoned minipets), or lower casting time for summoning new pet. Since pets are almost half of our DPS, its a shame that they die from first raid mob's AE (especially Warlock pets)</li> </ul> Warlock pet: <ul> <li>Lower casting time for her spells, increase damage for her AE nukes</li> </ul> Revivication: <ul> <li>Either remove ranks from this spell, or add scaling in quality for higher ranks</li> </ul> Pet Offensive stances: <ul> <li>Add something that will affect Warlock pet DPS (dmg proc, INT, whatever) - currient benefit to skills doesnt do anything</li> </ul> Rending Fury line: <ul> <li>Make this buff targetable</li> </ul> Torrential Plague line: <ul> <li>Lower casting time by 1s (to be 2s), increase damage</li> </ul> Drawing of Souls: <ul> <li>Lower casting time by 1s (to be 1s), to match our Mark's line casting time</li> <li>Change the way these 1-charge spells pop in your spellbook. Right now there is: 1 - chance to trigger temporary spell to pop, 2 - chance to get specific spell. Change it to: 1 - chance to trigger, 2 - chance to pop spell that IS NOT curriently in your book. IE - if you have 2 of 6 spells in book, new spells will be rolled from another 4, and not from all 6</li> <li>Change Flayer's Soul. Instead of +skills add some DMG proc on every hit/nuke</li> <li>Change Servile Soul. Currently summoned snake doesnt scale with Necro's level, its always 52lvl minipet</li> <li>Increase healing potential for Soothing Soul</li> </ul> Consumption: <ul> <li>Lower recast time to 60 seconds</li> <li>Fix that spell so it would heal all group members + their pets, as it says in discription</li> </ul> Teaching of XXX line: <ul> <li>Great, you removed INT stacking from different mage's buffs... but.. you forgot that all these buffs have second stat too! Currently, these buffs overwrite each other, meaning that secondary buff (such as STA, AGI, STR, WIS) is canceled too. Give back different stat's stacking (for example, if we have necro + coercer in group - we should get INT+STA+AGI, and not INT+STA or INT+AGI)</li> </ul> Necromantic Insignia line: <ul> <li>Fix that spell so Essence of Anguish will be summoned to NECRO's inventory, and not to group/raid member that had a killshot</li> </ul> Deathly Coil line: <ul> <li>Either increase damage made every 4 seconds, or lower "tick" time to 3 seconds</li> </ul> and finally... Lich: <ul> <li>Either lower HP cost that spell takes every tick, or increase healing from proc. For example, when you have 6k hp (normal situation in raid), Lich takes 240 (!!!) hp every 6 seconds. Its way TOO high</li> </ul> <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

Did some pet pathing testing tonight... this test is easily replicatable by anyone: Charm a spectre at the Sinking Sands oasis, take him (and your regular pet) into the rightmost croc caves reletive to the path from the oasis into the sinking sands proper.  Go to the end of the tunnel and cut a left over the little pond.  There is another tunnel to the left (technically, the tunnel to the left of the path from the oasis to the Sinking Sands proper).  Run up the tunnel towards the oasis... your regular pet will go back the way you came about half way down the tunnel and come out the original tunnel while your charmed pet will follow you the whole way. You can do this over and over again.  You don't need a charmed pet to see this in action, try it with a regular pet and no charm and you'll see your pet run back and out the other tunnel to get to you.  Since the charmed pet doesn't do this but the regular pet does, this leads me to believe that there is a very large coding difference between a "mobs" pathing and a pets pathing.  I don't see much reason why these can't have the same pathing mechanics. <div></div>

[Nosewar]

<DIV>Just make my warlock fight from a distance like a caster should, and make the 60 pet actually cool looking, and I'm a happy camper.</DIV>

[Nosewar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Romka wrote:<BR> <P><BR><BR>Lich:<BR></P> <UL> <LI>Either lower HP cost that spell takes every tick, or increase healing from proc. For example, when you have 6k hp (normal situation in raid), Lich takes 240 (!!!) hp every 6 seconds. Its way TOO high</LI></UL> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>With level 50 food I never have a problem with health loss with Lich on. I can keep my toon up for days and as long as he has food to consume he's golden and will never reach 1 or die.  Your procs make up for it anyway in a raid situation, not to mention your taps.  Lich is such a powerful spell it can't come free, there has to be a trade off and this is fair imo.</P> <P>Only in one place did it become a problem for me, and that was not the fault of Lich but of Tomb of Nights crappy design.  Some dumb jar I broke put a [Removed for Content] 30 MINUTE (!!) dot and 74% slow on my char.  And it was disease based so I couldnt dispel it.  How lame is that?<BR></P>

[Eesti]

what bothers me alittle is our unparsable pets like the dogs and ghastly stench, would be nice if it was possible to get them "tagged" incase there are more than 1 necro in the raid.<div></div>

[Raijinn]

Good stuff here, I stickied it for you all in the Necro community.

[El Chupacabr]

Figured out why charm undead breaks so frigging often for us... posted this in the coercer charm thread: <span>Necro charm could have a one hour duration and it wouldn't matter a hill of beans as on an even level mob it'll still break every few minutes.  Why do you guys like to charm undead so much?  Because undead have low mental resists... what are they highly resistant to?  Noxious... and all necromancer spells are disease based hence our charm only works on mobs that are already very resistant to our damage type and why they break every few minutes. I'll have to do some testing by not using our noxious concentration buff, see if that improves our woefully short duration charm vs. even /con mobs. </span><div></div>

[Za]

Grats El C. on another great thread!Also, when I charm a mob I never noticed lich go off. So what is charm undead based on?

[El Chupacabr]

That's been bothering me too, Zald.  The way I see it there are a few possibilities: <ol> <li>Lich actually does go off after the main spell lands</li> <li>Lich is disabled on the control undeath spell</li> <li>Control Undeath is a mental based spell</li> </ol> I have to assume control undeath is a disease spell since every other one is as well.  I guess it's possible but it just wouldn't add up since all other spells for necro's are disease based.  I don't like what this implies but I'm beginning to think that lich follows the rule of supposition #1.  Our logs show it going off first but it may in fact go off after the main spell. <div></div>

[cfteagu]

<P>I hate to go on a tangent on such a well written post, BUT</P> <P>I dont understand why both pet AND mob pathing isn't changed to something like:</P> <P>IF (range from target less than some limit) AND (line-of-sight to target) THEN move LINE-of-SIGHT regardless of zone pathing.</P> <P>Else do normally eq pathing.</P> <P>The critical range for a "straight line" pathing could be made fairly short, to avoid exploit issues.  and maybe they'd need a special Zaxis check to make sure our pet's cant jump over tall buildings.   But would't it be nice to see the pet move STRAIGHT AT THE TARGET once in a while?</P>

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR><BR> <OL> <LI>Lich actually does go off after the main spell lands</LI></OL> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im pretty sure this is the case.  If you cast siphon life to finish a mob off, you will only see the damage from siphon life, as the lich proc isnt necessary.</P> <P>Here is a snippit from a log of mine:</P> <P>This first bit shows the order in which the lich takes place.  Siphon does its damage first, then lich does its damage, then lich heals, then siphon heals for what is left (only 223 at this point which brought me to full hp - siphon normally heals for over 400)</P> <P>(1132513740)[Sun Nov 20 14:09:00 2005] YOUR Siphon Life hits a Faro' Nuk hyas for 861 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132513740)[Sun Nov 20 14:09:00 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning hits a Faro' Nuk hyas for 159 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132513740)[Sun Nov 20 14:09:00 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning heals YOURSELF for 74 hit points.<BR>(1132513740)[Sun Nov 20 14:09:00 2005] You siphon the life from Nimmh!  (hehe)<BR>(1132513740)[Sun Nov 20 14:09:00 2005] YOUR Siphon Life heals YOURSELF for 223 hit points.</P> <P> </P> <P>This next one shows lich procing off of infernal cloud - except for the lines highlighted in green because the damage from IC was enough to kill that one statue.</P> <P>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround A cyclops statue with an accursed cloud!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Infernal Cloud hits a cyclops statue for 845 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning hits a cyclops statue for 158 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] A cyclops statue chokes as the cloud envelops It!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround A cyclops statue with an accursed cloud!<BR><FONT color=#33cc00>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Infernal Cloud hits a cyclops statue for 845 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You have killed a cyclops statue.</FONT><BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You gain experience!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] Axemurderer was interrupted!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] A cyclops statue chokes as the cloud envelops It!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround A cyclops statue with an accursed cloud!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Infernal Cloud hits a cyclops statue for 845 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning hits a cyclops statue for 158 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] A cyclops statue chokes as the cloud envelops It!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround A cyclops statue with an accursed cloud!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Infernal Cloud hits a cyclops statue for 845 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning hits a cyclops statue for 158 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] A cyclops statue chokes as the cloud envelops It!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOU try to disease a cyclops statue with Infernal Cloud, but a cyclops statue resists.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround A cyclops statue with an accursed cloud!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Infernal Cloud hits a cyclops statue for 845 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning hits a cyclops statue for 158 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] A cyclops statue chokes as the cloud envelops It!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround A cyclops statue with an accursed cloud!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Infernal Cloud hits a cyclops statue for 845 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning hits a cyclops statue for 158 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] A cyclops statue chokes as the cloud envelops It!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround A cyclops statue with an accursed cloud!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Infernal Cloud hits a cyclops statue for 845 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] YOUR Lich's Siphoning hits a cyclops statue for 158 points of disease damage.<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] A cyclops statue chokes as the cloud envelops It!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You surround Nimmh with an accursed cloud!<BR>(1132388161)[Sat Nov 19 03:16:01 2005] You choke as the cloud envelops you!</P> <P><BR>So the way I see it, lich does its damage after the spell that triggers it - and then only if it is needed.</P>

[Signal9]

<DIV>No Text</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Signal9 on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[Signal9]

<DIV>No text:  Multi-post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Signal9 on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:57 AM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

There's the proof then, I didn't have any kill shot without lich procs parses... lich goes off after the main damage spell.  That's pretty crappy considering lich can break fear, snare and root.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:There's the proof then, I didn't have any kill shot without lich procs parses... lich goes off after the main damage spell.  That's pretty crappy considering lich can break fear, snare and root. <hr></blockquote>Wow, true, thats gotta be a bug. It's certainly inconsistent.On a side not.... I recall back in DoF beta the Devs had ideas about making our rez a summon corpse like rez... but they gave up on the idea.So I'm thinking of ways to make our rez more unique and have it benefit from tier advancement. 1st, I don't think Necro rezzez should increase in HPs as you Tier, that's unoriginal and I think Priests should be the best at rezzing in combat situation or where you want someone healed and ready to run. I'd like to see the necro rez become what DoF would have made it, a utility rez.Suggestion 1: Rez with Target invised.App 1 - Short Range, 50% slow on target, rezzed with 10% HP/PowApp 4 - Medium Range, 40% slow, 10% hp/powAdept 1 - Med, 35% slow, 10% hp/powAdept 3 - Med, 25% slow, 10% hp/pow, No LoS requirementMaster 1 - Long, 20% slow, 10% hp/pow, No LoS requirementSuggestion 2: Rez w/ FDApp 1 - Short Range, w/ 100% 30 second FD effect on target.... Subsequent tiers add duration to the FD effect. Adept3 and higher, remove LoS requirement and increase range.

[El Chupacabr]

<div></div>And there's a fix on test!<p><strong>Necromancer changes:</strong></p><p>- Servile Soul should now correctly scale with level.</p><p>Keep up the great discussion and input guys, they do listen!</p><div></div>

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:I'd be happy if they just:- Change the Rending line to proc an encounter AoE instead of the DPS booster, and make it apply to all currently summoned pets.<hr></blockquote>I know this is like in the first page but I just had to reply. The MAIN problem I see with making the proc an encoutner AoE is when mobs are mezzed. One proc and a group/raid will wipe. I would be totally against my rending line to be encounter vs single target, because I would never use it on any raid or group where we will be mezzing.</span><div></div>

[jfleming2003]

Whine, whine whine...complain, complain, complain...nobody's ever happy. I'm a lvl 60 Necro and I absolutely love my class. I mean, don't get me wrong, I wish some things were better but if that were the case, Necros would be a bit too perfect now wouldn't they? 1) Yes, I wish my rez gave a better percentage of health and power to the person I'm rezzing....but I'm not a healer, I"m lucky I even have a rez...that can be used IN combat...with a longer range of effect.Yes, I wish my summoned heal was more, but once again, I'm not a healer.2) Yes, I wish I did tons more dps but if I wanted to have the highest DPS, I would have been a wizard or warlock. Have any of you fellow necros ever parsed a raid before? Who comes out on top? Necros! and by a ton. Our dps is totally situational, but isn't everybody's?3) Yes, I wish all my casting times were 1 second long but then wouldn't that be slightly unfair to let's say the Warlocks who have all 3 and 4 second casting times?4) Yes, I wish all my abilities had an extremely short recast, maybe even no recast timer, but then I'd just be reaching for something else to complain about.Ok guys, how about this...how about we look at our abilities and see what we can brag about. Hmmm...let's see...1)We have a live-in tank. We can solo better than any other class out there. 2)We CAN heal, and not only our pets, but other ppl too. Granted, it converts our health but if we could just run around healing everybody then what would be the purpose of our healers? Oh, and we have a life-tap...I'm pretty sure the reason we have that is because of our health conversions.3) We can feighn death...with a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CHANCE OF SUCCESS. Yes, it only lasts 15 mins with a 15 min recast, but if it worked like the brawler FD, added in with the pet and heal, what would be the point in any other classes at all? But the point is....we DO have a FD that lasts 15 mins....do any other casters have that?4)The little things: we can harvest and xp at the exact same time. As long as the mob(s) are on our pet and not hitting us, we can harvest while our pet burns down the mobs. Comes in handy when there's that one node surrounded by mobs and ten other ppl want that same node too. While they would have to wait to harvest until after they kill the mobs, we could send our pet to get them out of the way and then go to harvesting.5)DPS...we actually do a ton of dps. Yes they nerfed Lich, big deal! It still does what it's intended to do...and who else has a permanent buff they can cast on themself that automatically transfers their health to power? Heh, and on top of that, we have our health to power that drains our pet's health, and we also have the summoned stones that converts our health to power... but back to the point of DPS. Short fights, we're pretty much worthless, but during those long fights...wow...we're like the dps kings/queens! Like I stated before, it's totally situational but so is everybody else's dps. (Ex: Warlocks - grp encounters, the longer the better for the DOTS. Wizards - single target encounters, longer the better cuz of recast times)There are lots of other reasons Necros are actually awesome classes but at the sake of making this post any longer, I'll let you figure them out for yourselves. Every class has their crap abilities with their crap casting times and recast timers, but then again, every class has their awesome abilities that really make them amazing. I have yet to see a post from anyone that brags about their class, everything is negative.I know if I were the DEVS who had to listen to all this and take into consideration what we have to say, I'd just be like f**k all you and just delete the stupid class. They can't make everybody happy, but instead of being such pessimists, how about looking at what we do bring to groups. People come to me all the time and say they should have made a Necro and many of them actually went and made alts that are Necros. That in itself is enough to make me realize how awesome our class is.

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>jfleming2003 wrote:Whine, whine whine...complain, complain, complain...nobody's ever happy. I'm a lvl 60 Necro and I absolutely love my class. I mean, don't get me wrong, I wish some things were better but if that were the case, Necros would be a bit too perfect now wouldn't they? [...snip...] I know if I were the DEVS who had to listen to all this and take into consideration what we have to say, I'd just be like f**k all you and just delete the stupid class. They can't make everybody happy, but instead of being such pessimists, how about looking at what we do bring to groups. People come to me all the time and say they should have made a Necro and many of them actually went and made alts that are Necros. That in itself is enough to make me realize how awesome our class is.<hr></blockquote>Wow, relax bro. This is not one of those "OMG WE SUCK" posts. This is merely a "Room for improvement" thread. Yes we like our class but these are the things that the OP finds annoying/obtrusive. I agree on some, I don't agree on others. But I don't hear anyone whining. I just hear suggestions. None of the usual drama of "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] FIX THIS OR I WILL QUIT" hehehe.</span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

If all you see are whines and complaints in both this post and the necro boards in general than you really need to do some more reading to find a real whine post.  Everything I listed as my personal complaints are backed up with numbers or development statements as not working right.  Saying we have no reason to offer constructive feedback because so much is working right is just silly. <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

I forgot to include a couple of points I put in the "official" feedback thread... <span><div><strong>4)  The change to pet targeting and pathing:</strong>  When pet pathing was changed to disallow the ability of a necro (or any summoner) to send the pet on anything they can't personally attack, it put up alot of barriers due to pet line of sight compared to owner line of sight.  A rock on the ground can keep a pet from attacking and repositioning a pet to get clear of the obstruction takes an inordinate amount of time while also causing increased risk to groupmates since pets rubberband around owners.</div> <div> </div> <div>Solution:  Remove the pet LoS restriction, it wasn't exactly being exploited and made pets very manageable.  Look into why pets are not taking the shortest path to encounters but running half way around zones to get to the same point.  Encounters run right to players, why can't pets run right to encounters?  Is this a reappearance of the dreaded "Pet Dance"? <span><span><span><strong>10)  Necromantic insignia line:</strong>  This line is s'posed to give the notrade essence of anguish necromancer spell component upon mob death... problem is, it gives it to whomever gets the kill shot (ie. quite often, not the necro).  Since nobody else can use these and they're no trade, they should only go into the necro's inventory.</span></span></span> </div></span> <div></div>

[Eriol]

I suspect the problem with necro insignia is when you have more than one necro in the group, who does the essence go to, as there's probably only one debuff on the mob. Of course that MIGHT be able to be fixed by "looking to the caster", which would be the pet, and then saying "pet's owner", but that code may not exist in the combat system (yet).I guess I'm just saying it seems like a tech problem, rather than a design one.

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:I suspect the problem with necro insignia is when you have more than one necro in the group, who does the essence go to, as there's probably only one debuff on the mob. Of course that MIGHT be able to be fixed by "looking to the caster", which would be the pet, and then saying "pet's owner", but that code may not exist in the combat system (yet).I guess I'm just saying it seems like a tech problem, rather than a design one.<hr></blockquote>Happens with just one necro in group, in duo's etc.  Whomever gets that kill shot gets the essence, I've grouped with other necro's once since the expansion came out and it's always happened for me, in all group types. This used to happen with SK's and their tradeable essences, imagine it's the same type of problem.</span><div></div>

[Leawyn]

Yep, the essences are a little form of amusement for me and my friends. My pet's name is Bob, and my swashy friend gets alot of the essences, so we like to say Bob gives him lots of head <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:Happens with just one necro in group, in duo's etc. Whomever gets that kill shot gets the essence, I've grouped with other necro's once since the expansion came out and it's always happened for me, in all group types. This used to happen with SK's and their tradeable essences, imagine it's the same type of problem.<hr></blockquote>Yes it does happen with only one, but I was just saying it doesn't automatically assign to "necro" because of the possibility of more than one in the group.The rest is why it's not necessarily so easy to fix either.

[Dalin]

I have a few issues with the Necro's also. <DIV>First off, why does the teir 6 tank pet, Diseased Servant, suck so bad? He does very little if any more damage than the Rotting Thrall and dies faster. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, the Lich nerf, cut our dps down a lot in my opinion and is definitly not as attractive to Necro's as it used to be. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thirdly, the rotting pack hounds, I have them at master 2 and I will admit I don't look at them a whole lot but when I notice they're damage it is no where I expected and doesn't seem very improved fromt he Apprentice 2 form I had prior to the Master 2. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fourth, the 1 time drawing of souls spells... They are only 1 time use which is pointless in my opinion especially when they are all on the same timer, making them unuseable in most situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fifth, our pets have hard times hitting epic mobs, not sure if it is because of the legendary weapon rule or what, but the pets shoudl definitly beable to hit epics seeing as they are 80% or more of our DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And finally this is not about the class but rather a question. Why does SoE think Necro's proc (IE lich) have to be nerfed, or our pets. For instance Rangers and Wizards (and I'm not tryin to get rangers nerfed or anything, I love sniper shot just as much as the next person. Same with wizards.) have multiple spells to hit 1 or ore targets for thousands of points of damage. So why should Necro pet's be unable to hit epic targets and our procs nerfed when that was our best way to keep up with DPS.....</DIV>

[Dalin]

<P>Sorry bout the sig on the last post...way outdated.</P> <P>Now a 60 Necro.</P> <P>Thanks</P>

[Nosewar]

<DIV>I don't know what you guys are complaining about Control Undead for, I absolutely love that spell and it lasts on avg 10 to 15 minutes for me.  Yes, adept3. Obviously the higher the mob in relation to you the greater the chance for it to break charm -- which can make for a sticky situation if you charmed some ^^^ even+.  However, I'll take those odds with the 100% landing of the spell initially, making for a nice limited CC tool in certain situations.  I've found that the most ideal charmed pets are the ones that are 2+ levels below you...in such cases charm will reliably stick for about 15 min on avg for me.  Case in point, just for fun charming the 47^^^ specs in SS and chillin by the docks.  Charm lasts forever.  However, if I go to Silent City and charm something 2 levels above and heroic, that's pretty much near suicide because the charm often breaks within a couple minutes regularly...on break one or two hits before my pet takes aggro for me to recharm means I'm close to dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But overall, absolutely love the spell. Tons of fun and some convenient bonus DPS. Definately can't complain that the charmed pet shares the pet buffs as well.  I would ask just for one improvement:  Give me another Pet command box for the charmed pet so I can control each independently.  There are times I'd like to use the charmed pet to attack and keep my own pet by my side guarding me.  Or I'd like to park the pets in different locations, etc.  It's just a bit bugged right now, sometimes the Pet command box showing my real pet or the charmed pet, which throws off my Exchange Life heals, etc.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nosewarts on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:12 PM</span>

[Za]

My only complaint about the charm is that they should give you a way of controlling multiple pets individually. It's completely confusing and inconsistent that sometimes the pet that I control is my normal pet and sometimes its the charmed one. ** To clarify, I know that the controls work both both at the same time, but the HPs that show can be either one. **If they'd just add a way to have multiple pet controll windows I'd be extactic.BTW, my just in my own experience with AdIII Control Undead, I can hold green non arrowed mobs for the full duration a good chunk of the time. 15-20 minutes is pretty common. I can hold blue non arrowed mobs for 5-10 minutes, and often 10-15, but on avg less likely to go 15 minutes when compared to greens.Every up arrow cuts those times in like half. A green ^^^ mob last 5-10 minutes if I'm lucky. I usually use a blue ^^ or ^^^ mob for only a few fights before I release and recharm it. But the cool thing is that (although I have not parsed anything...) Even green charms add really good DPS!I easily add a con level of ^^^ mob to my soloing when I can charm. In other words, where as I'd have difficulty soloing a low blue ^^^ mob without an extra pet. I can solo high blue ^^^ mobs with the extra damage. Low blue ^^^ mobs become much easier.So I'm a huge fan of the spell with only the interface and lack of undead mobs as my two complaints.<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:38 PM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Control undeath is not 100% chance of landing, it can and will get resisted.  This is one of my favorite skills as well but the problems I have with it is it just doesn't stick as well as it should.  Charming a mob one level higher than you should be a doable thing (coercers charm yellow pets as a rule) but as it stands now charming a yellow lasts maybe a minute if it sticks at all... heck, I've had a vv one level above me break charm running to my side after the initial charm.</P> <P>Charming around my level, so far 12 minutes for a vv one level below me has been my best charm... the majority of the time it's closer to five minutes on duration.</P> <P>Against my better judgement, this is one of my ad3's too but it sure doesn't hold like one... I enjoy charming undead as much as the next guy (and charming those ghost treants in SC with full offensive buffs up is a hoot) but the resist rate is just too high, even against blues.</P> <P>I can use this in the sanctorium and solo where charm will generally last close to full duration but I want to charm stuff around my level and have a decent duration from it.  I certainly don't think expecting 15 minutes from a charm against a blue <FONT color=#66ff00>white </FONT>mob is out of line but as it stands it's just breaking too darn early against level appropriate mobs (and you sure can't cart a lower level charmed mob to where the higher level mobs are).</P> <P>And yes, I'd like a second pet control window, too.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Edit:  In green.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:07 PM</span>

[Dalin]

<DIV>In my opinion Control undeath has a different set of rules for different mobs, obviously it is for Undead only but let me expalin.</DIV> <DIV>For instance in the shimmering citadel you cannot charm the "an udead aravu" but you can charm the spectres, I've foudn that most spectre mobs can be charmed quite well, I liek to use the ones in the Living Tombs they are all blue to me at 60 and are very powerful charm usually lasts around 15 minutes give or take for me, then you jus thave your pet tank it for 4 seconds while you cast it agian, worst case senario you have another mob to kill.</DIV> <DIV>As for skeleton types from what I've seen are COMPLETELY random ive had the skeletal cobras charmed in LT for 1-10 minutes, the channel assassin in Livign Tombs is an awesome chamr but even at 60 i have to re charm every 2 minutes or so. Same with the normal skeles that roam in SS. I haven't even bothered with zombie types.</DIV> <DIV>Thats from my experience with COntrol Undeath, it's an awesome spell one of my favorites also, jus thave to experiment with different mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the pet windows are concerned as long as both pets respond as they should and when the charm breask my pet tanks for a few seconds, I really don't see a problem with it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dalinor on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 AM</span>

[Za]

Well Dalinor... I think El C speculated in another thread that our charm was disease based. So what you're seeing is probably a significant disease resist difference between the specs and the skels. As far as which mobs are "flagged" as undead... EQ2 has similar inconsistancies as EQ1. Alot of ghost mobs aren't flagged as undead. The Undead Naga aren't flagged as undead. Some of the undead combra are flagged properly, but the ones in SS aren't. The ghost dogs in LT are properly flagged. They just need to do a review of all the mobs and correctly flag the ones that should be "undead".El C... I don't neccessarily need to charm as well as a coercer, I mean thats their main niche, and I do have several other tricks they don't. But I'd be happy with something that stuck reliably to something, even if it only worked on even or worse mobs, but stuck for the duration most of the time, I'd be happy. I just hate being in the middle of something and having to stop to deal with your green "pet" that went loco again.

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Oh, I certainly didn't mean to imply that I thought our charm should be equal to the coercers, in fact I've argued pretty heatedly (for me) against it.  My point is just that against an even level vvv mob with adept 3 charm, we should be able to hold for a pretty good duration but it seems to me our resist rolls come way too often hence the mobs break way too early (note my reference to the charm that broke when my newly charmed was running straight back to me).</P> <P>Interestingly enough, it doesn't seem our disease buffs effect the break rate... not by any really noticible amount.  I still believe our charm works against disease resist and some mobs just have a higher one than others.  I've noticed this in the sinking sands, you can hold a ^^^ spectre pretty easily though you may have more trouble holding a ^ ghoul.</P> <P>In general the ghosts seem to have fairly high resists, spectres fairly low and mummies right in the middle.  It's really tough to get a good feel for it though as I've held most all types for close to ten minutes but in general five seems to be about right for most mob types if =/-1 level.  At this point it's just speculation as I can't really quantify my numbers and don't have enough of a sample size to see any real trends.</P> <P>An even level mobs average hold time should be at least 50% of the spells noted duration if ad 3, in my opinion, which would leave a few five minute streaks and a few 20 minute streaks and I'd certainly like there to be a chance of holding for max duration.  That would still give us a pretty useful pet life since you can keep charming but after about 3 it's gonna be quite tricky to get that six second cast charm spell off before killing the mob.</P>

[KBern]

<DIV>One thing I would love to see is an improvement on the pets resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate the way the pets get mauled in raid mob AOE's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, they let the pets have the owners resists.  That one feature alone would make raiding as a necro/conjuror 10x more efficient when using pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A second thing I notice over the weekend, and maybe I was too drunk to really process, well...too drunk is relative...but I digress...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do our settings for Guard Me, and Guard Self reset when I zone?  If I click them off, and do not make a new pet...just leave them off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not a huge thing, but if they will be tweaking classes continuously as they say, and are always looking into the little things, this would be a good change to implement.</DIV>

[Za]

El C, I think all negative spells drop as soon as a mob becomes charmed. So our disease debuff may impact the initial charm, but subsequent resist checks would be vs the mobs base resists because the debuff dropped as soon as the mob became charmed.

[El Chupacabr]

<P>On those super fast breaking ones, I hadn't even sent my pet in and was with no disease debuffing classes.  Since aspect of the undead doesn't seem to have any effect on the break rates I'm thinking it has something to do with the <EM>base</EM> resist rate instead of the <EM>actual</EM> resist rate.  Of course, that's all speculation as I just don't have enough data to say one way or the other.</P> <P>Yeah, I'm just counting the minutes 'til I'm off work so burning up the web.</P> <P>Edit:  And yes, I was half tanked during this testing, much like you were <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>Edit2:  And I actually like that the pet goes right into defensive when I zone, he's saved my rear more than once by getting in the fight before UI resources had loaded (he did it last night after a spotty Cazek run), buying me enough time to get to a safe spot to FD... but that's just me.</P><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span>

[Nosewar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR>El C, I think all negative spells drop as soon as a mob becomes charmed. So our disease debuff may impact the initial charm, but subsequent resist checks would be vs the mobs base resists because the debuff dropped as soon as the mob became charmed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>When my pet tanks the mob and puts a dot on it, and I charm it, the dot continued to hit the charmed pet until end of duration.  The spell icons under the charmed pet also indicate the same thing. I'm assuming all negative spells behave the same way.

[Nosewar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <P>Control undeath is not 100% chance of landing, it can and will get resisted.  This is one of my favorite skills as well but the problems I have with it is it just doesn't stick as well as it should.  Charming a mob one level higher than you should be a doable thing (coercers charm yellow pets as a rule) but as it stands now charming a yellow lasts maybe a minute if it sticks at all... heck, I've had a vv one level above me break charm running to my side after the initial charm.</P> <P>Charming around my level, so far 12 minutes for a vv one level below me has been my best charm... the majority of the time it's closer to five minutes on duration.</P> <P>Against my better judgement, this is one of my ad3's too but it sure doesn't hold like one... I enjoy charming undead as much as the next guy (and charming those ghost treants in SC with full offensive buffs up is a hoot) but the resist rate is just too high, even against blues.</P> <P>I can use this in the sanctorium and solo where charm will generally last close to full duration but I want to charm stuff around my level and have a decent duration from it.  I certainly don't think expecting 15 minutes from a charm against a blue <FONT color=#66ff00>white </FONT>mob is out of line but as it stands it's just breaking too darn early against level appropriate mobs (and you sure can't cart a lower level charmed mob to where the higher level mobs are).</P> <P>And yes, I'd like a second pet control window, too.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Edit:  In green.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <SPAN class=date_text>11-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well I have yet to have my charm resisted, however I have not attempted to charm anything higher than yellow and some down arrows, or even and ^^^.  It's been 100% for me thus far, however I think I won't be trying to charm anything yellow/red ^^^ anytime soon if resists do indeed happen.

[Za]

I've had exactly 1 charm resisted. It was vs an ^^ blue mob. Really was a pain because I was expecting the ^^ to assist me in attecking his former grouped mobs. It took me a few seconds to realize that the bugger was actually beating on me!After revivin 8p, I checked to see what happened and sure enough, I had a resisted message. But it's freaky that I've only had that happen once as often as I cast the darn spell.?

[Nosewar]

Well those resist rates I can definately live with.  Charm is such a great bonus to have as a necro.  It's fun watching newer players do double takes. Do necros in EQ1 have charm undead? (My main was a bard there and I can't remember)

[Deson]

Yes we did. Couldn't have it and the summoned pet atthe same time though and this one seems to be far better for resists. <div></div>

[Nosewar]

<DIV>Well poo. You guys jinxed me and I <EM>might</EM> have gotten my first resist today and on a blue con no less. Weird thing though...I didn't see any resist message.  It is possible it succeeded and immediately broke I think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With a separate pet controls box this spell would be just wonderful imo.  Btw, I've found that if you are going to charm a mob that is dangerous...say an even or yellow con with some ^'s, what I do is stick to charming the caster types.  As necros we should already have decent resists vs various magic types, especially disease and poison.  Therefore this blunts the danger from a dangerous mob that breaks charm and gets irate with you...plus the caster mobs have relatively weak melee attacks.  Perfect for giving the pet enough time to take aggro and recharm.  A similar tank/assassin mob may very well kill you in a dicey situation.  And caster charmed pets still have some nice DPS to complement your own. Works for me anyway and much safer.</DIV>

[Eirgo]

<DIV>The only downside I have seen on charming a caster mob is with how quickly they seem to go oop.  Not really a big deal, I just usually find myself charming a new one well before the charm would have broken.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Though charming a caster mob is a pretty good idea when you're solo, since they won't be effected by the slow of the defense buff... but they do run out of power very, very quickly.</P> <P>I prefer melee mobs when in offensive, spell breaks be damned!</P> <P>And more testing last night (true, not for very long, but testing nontheless) and didn't get over four minutes charming mobs two levels below me, standard was about two minute stick time.</P>

[-Baz_al-Bo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR>- Change the Rending line to proc an encounter AoE instead of the DPS booster, and make it apply to all currently summoned pets.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>- The MAIN problem I see with making the proc an encoutner AoE is when mobs are mezzed. One proc and a group/raid will wipe. I would be totally against my rending line to be encounter vs single target, because I would never use it on any raid or group where we will be mezzing.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Isn't it true that in encounter AOE's will only break mez's if and only if the specific target that is mez'd is cast upon.  If we control our pet properly (and I know we all can), the in encounter AoE proposed will not break a mez.</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Leawyn]

Ask Fury's about their dmg sheild that does encounter dmg. It breaks mez. This would be along the same lines. Chanter has 2 mobs mezzed in an encounter, and we are beating on the third. Pet proc's an encounterwide AE, and all targets are hit. Dmg done to mezzed mobs = broken mez. If thats not the case, then forgive me. I've just seen it happen with fury dmg sheilds that proc encounter dmg. I would assume that a pet proc would produce the same kind of mez breaks. <div></div>

[Sem]

<P>Each class seems to have a  "To Be Fixed" posting that the devels might pore through for suggestions...  is this the main one for Necros?  I'm not a Necro but I group with one daily and there's a little bug I get that may be invisible to the Necros...</P> <P>I know this was mentioned in forums a few months ago but it's still going on:</P> <P>The person who gets the deathblow on the mob gets the No Trade "Essence of Anguish" in their inventory.   As an Assassin, that's often me.  I return from a day's hunt with a pile of these in my pockets and can't hand them back to the Necro for his use later so I have to just delete them regularly.</P> <P> </P>

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Semma wrote:<BR> <P>The person who gets the deathblow on the mob gets the No Trade "Essence of Anguish" in their inventory.   As an Assassin, that's often me.  I return from a day's hunt with a pile of these in my pockets and can't hand them back to the Necro for his use later so I have to just delete them regularly.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, most of us are well aware <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Looks like Chup accidentally left it out of his OP. Thanks for noticing this, I expect he will put it in soon.<BR>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>XBrit wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Semma wrote: <p>The person who gets the deathblow on the mob gets the No Trade "Essence of Anguish" in their inventory.   As an Assassin, that's often me.  I return from a day's hunt with a pile of these in my pockets and can't hand them back to the Necro for his use later so I have to just delete them regularly.</p> <hr> </blockquote>Yeah, most of us are well aware <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Looks like Chup accidentally left it out of his OP. Thanks for noticing this, I expect he will put it in soon. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Reply #55 (page 3) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</span> <div></div>

[Sem]

Reply #55 (page 3) <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0>.<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol - I confess!  I didn't read the whole list!  Anyway, it's a small one.  Getting pockets full of skulls is small porice to pay to have a necro in group, you guys rock.</DIV>

[Tokam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR><BR>Against groups my assassin pet outdamages the warlock too.  The warlock pet can easily fool parsers by hitting that big AoE relatively late in the fight, add up total damage and do the DPS calculation reletive to your fight start time and you'll see the warlock is not as good as you think she is. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Quick question folks - I managed to loot a master grim terror lately, and was wondering if anyone has an idea how the dps compares to an adept 3 shaddowy stalker (ad 3 offensive stance and frenzy) in a group situation. Also, and it may just have been me, but the lamia looked like she was healing herself from time to time when she took indirect damage from the mobs - can anyone confirm / deny this?</P> <P>Thanks in advance<BR></P>