OK, so is this an exploit or not???

[socrates3]

Hello All, Please everyone let me know what you think of this. I am a level 29 necro and I decided to go AFK in the Ruins of Varsoon. I found a "safe" corner on a ledge that overlooks the circular pit where the clay crawlers spawn. I go to bed and lo and behold I wake up and my pet has been fighting a single up arrow shrieker all night long. I look at my XP and my net gain was 35 percent. (I started at 0 percent into level 29). Then I look at the update notes and notice that now we get XP when our pets kill something and we don't participate. I hate power leveling as much as the next guy and I just found this by accident. Is this an exploit? Senia <div></div>

[Jaik]

<P>The real question is, Do you think its an Exploit?  </P> <P> </P> <P>AFK xping is what added the 1 point of damage to mob for xp gain to start with. We had issue when grouping an not being able to hit every mob before they died, so the Devs took this requirment back off. </P> <P>Its a game that you paid for and continue to pay every month.  Play how you like as long as you have fun, thats all that matters.</P> <P>60 Necromancer of Permafrost</P>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Yes, it is a bannable exploit.</P> <P>Edit:  All unattended play is considered an exploit with the exception of merchant mode.</P><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 PM</span>

[Xalmat]

What Chup said. A GM would consider your actions a violation of game policies and could suspend or ban your account. I'd advise you avoid repeating what you did, whether you intended to or not.

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:<div></div> <p>Yes, it is a bannable exploit.</p> <p>Edit:  All unattended play is considered an exploit with the exception of merchant mode.</p><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class="date_text">11-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>So, you say that everything what my character (game client) is doing by itself is an exploit? If I leave my character in AFK mode and it will consume food/drink - its an exploit? If i hit autorun and leave my character stuck in wall (even more, in water, to rise swimming skill omg) - its an exploit? No, its not exploit, its game mechanics. You can like it or not - but it is. Your pet is a SPELL, and this spell works in this way. Let me be clear - "this spell summons a minion that will attack (and most likelly kill) enything that attacks you". This is how spell works, this is how SOE made it to work. Of course, AFK exping isnt cute, but if SOE cant find normal way to avoid it - they have to live with it. What they did - they added exp gain check so player had to do at least 1 point of damage to recieve exp. And many people were complaining about it. It was simple solution for SOE to avoid AFK exp, so simple and so stupid. If they spent some more time with coding, I bet they would be able to make something that doesnt hurt regular players and same time avoids AFK exping. Once again, its not an exploit, its game mechanics, the way spell works, spell that SOE gave you.</span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Romka wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <P>Yes, it is a bannable exploit.</P> <P>Edit:  All unattended play is considered an exploit with the exception of merchant mode.</P> <P>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:27 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So, you say that everything what my character (game client) is doing by itself is an exploit?<BR><BR>If I leave my character in AFK mode and it will consume food/drink - its an exploit?<BR>If i hit autorun and leave my character stuck in wall (even more, in water, to rise swimming skill omg) - its an exploit?<BR><BR>No, its not exploit, its game mechanics. You can like it or not - but it is. Your pet is a SPELL, and this spell works in this way. Let me be clear - "this spell summons a minion that will attack (and most likelly kill) enything that attacks you". This is how spell works, this is how SOE made it to work.<BR><BR>Of course, AFK exping isnt cute, but if SOE cant find normal way to avoid it - they have to live with it. What they did - they added exp gain check so player had to do at least 1 point of damage to recieve exp. And many people were complaining about it. It was simple solution for SOE to avoid AFK exp, so simple and so stupid. If they spent some more time with coding, I bet they would be able to make something that doesnt hurt regular players and same time avoids AFK exping.<BR><BR>Once again, its not an exploit, its game mechanics, the way spell works, spell that SOE gave you.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><!--StartFragment --> We understand your concerns with this requirement, and we are looking into it now. While the intention of the change was to make it so players can't simply go AFK and gain experience from their pets, this didn't completely stifle botters from exploitation. <STRONG>As botting and unattended player are against the rules</STRONG>, we can still go after these players regardless of the change, so we are reconsidering it now. It may be addressed in a coming update. I'll let you know as soon as I do if and when the reversion of this change will take place.<BR> <P><BR>Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder </P> <P>Against the rules.  Here's the link:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=77104&query.id=0#M77104" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=77104&query.id=0#M77104</A></P></DIV>

[Romka]

<div></div>And now find a link with clear explanation what is <strong>botting and unattended player</strong>, made by Dev.I want to know, is it an exploit if I hit autorun and leave my character online? Is it "unattended gameplay"? Of course it is. Hell, if I just leave my character - it is still online, in fact it still PLAYS, and it is unattended. But is it an exploit??? So, where is the distinction between exploit and game mechanics?Anyway, its a moral question, isnt it? Some things that are OK for me can be expoits for someone else. And vice versa. For me "unattended gameplay" is when I setup some macto programm that will hit buttons and move cursor and repeat it (for example [target nearest mob] -> [send pet] -> [hit few spells] -> [pause] /repeat). That is unattended gameplay. But when I leave my character online, and do nothing to game client - its not unattended gameplay, its stupid game mechanics.<span></span><strong></strong><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

That thread is specifically about summoners doing what the OP mentioned, don't know how much clearer it needs to be.  if you're looking for a thread that says unattended gameplay is anything outside of merchantmode that gives your character any permanent benefit, you won't find it... if you're a new player, read that thread and realize the quote posted says that afk xp'ing is against the rules. If you want to argue if doing this is right or wrong, PM a dev as no resonses to this thread has said it's morally wrong to afk xp.  I have no interest in lawyering the point with you, if you're allowed to do this or not is easily inferred by that dev responses context. <div></div>

[Chabisu]

The end answer is yes if you get caught doing this you can get banned. Dispite the arguments that some make otherwise to why it shouldn't be considered an exploit, SOE does view it as such.Are you happy with the game and want to continue playing it? If so, do you really want to risk your account by doing this sort of thing and being caught?Personally I wouldn't.

[Truwen]

<div></div><span></span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Truwen on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 PM</span>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:That thread is specifically about summoners doing what the OP mentioned, don't know how much clearer it needs to be.  if you're looking for a thread that says unattended gameplay is anything outside of merchantmode that gives your character any permanent benefit, you won't find it... if you're a new player, read that thread and realize the quote posted says that afk xp'ing is against the rules. If you want to argue if doing this is right or wrong, PM a dev as no resonses to this thread has said it's morally wrong to afk xp.  I have no interest in lawyering the point with you, if you're allowed to do this or not is easily inferred by that dev responses context. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Its pretty simple. Noone was banned for being AFK, and noone will be banned. </span><div></div>

[Collab]

<DIV>There are botters on the server that are blatently obvious to everyone (IE pathing, autoresponses when you get close, no response to tells) and yet repeated petitions of dozens of people have resulted in....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Absolutely nothing.  They continue botting all day long 24/7, and nothing ever happens to them.  Either the GMs are really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] stupid, or Sony just doesn't really care if you cheat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you do it, know that you are doing it at a risk.  However, considering Sony doesn't touch those that are cheating in the most obvious way possible, i'd say your chances of getting away with it are near 100% at this point.</DIV>

[ume]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> socrates399 wrote:<BR>Hello All,<BR><BR>Please everyone let me know what you think of this. I am a level 29 necro and I decided to go AFK in the Ruins of Varsoon. I found a "safe" corner on a ledge that overlooks the circular pit where the clay crawlers spawn. I go to bed and lo and behold I wake up and my pet has been fighting a single up arrow shrieker all night long. I look at my XP and my net gain was 35 percent. (I started at 0 percent into level 29).<BR><BR>Then I look at the update notes and notice that now we get XP when our pets kill something and we don't participate.<BR><BR>I hate power leveling as much as the next guy and I just found this by accident. Is this an exploit?<BR><BR><BR>Senia<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>THis person isn't a necro.  He's just trying to stir up trouble.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and you guys took the bait...

[Xalmat]

If you see a botter in action, /petition under Report Exploit.

[vorek]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Romka....you are obviously only in here looking for a fight.</P> <P> </P> <P>It IS an exploit and do it at your own risk.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Claimh_Sola]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Romka wrote: And now find a link with clear explanation what is <strong>botting and unattended player</strong>, made by Dev. I want to know, is it an exploit if I hit autorun and leave my character online? Is it "unattended gameplay"? Of course it is. Hell, if I just leave my character - it is still online, in fact it still PLAYS, and it is unattended. But is it an exploit??? So, where is the distinction between exploit and game mechanics? Anyway, its a moral question, isnt it? Some things that are OK for me can be expoits for someone else. And vice versa. For me "unattended gameplay" is when I setup some macto programm that will hit buttons and move cursor and repeat it (for example [target nearest mob] -> [send pet] -> [hit few spells] -> [pause] /repeat). That is unattended gameplay. But when I leave my character online, and do nothing to game client - its not unattended gameplay, its stupid game mechanics. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I hate to feed a troll spoiling for an argument, but you're splitting hairs here. Sitting there AFK eating food is gaining you no benefit. Turning on autorun and running into a wall all night is not gaining you any benefit. AFK exping IS gaining you benefit, and if you're not at the keyboard to gain said benefit, that's considered a bannable offense. It's just common sense, and you're trying to twist the words around to your own benefit.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Claimh_Solais on <span class="date_text">11-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:05 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Claimh_Solais on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Janl]

Actually, I believe swimming into a wall to increase your swimming skill while unattended COULD be considered an exploit.  I remember the issue coming up in EQLive, and if I remember correctly, it was deemed to infact be against the rules.<div></div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vorek wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Romka....you are obviously only in here looking for a fight.</P> <P> </P> <P>It IS an exploit and do it at your own risk.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Pretty much.  Stop playing dense.  You afk in an area for an extended period of time with your pet on guard me, and someone petitions you, there is a good chance you will be banned.</P> <P>You can play ignorant on the forums and pretend you are unclear what the devs mean or continue to be argumentative just for the sake of arguing, but in the long run, it won't matter if someone chooses to do this, and they get petitioned, and caught, they will be banned/suspended more than likely.<BR></P>

[Nosewar]

<P>Bah there is NO chance he will be banned. I reported the same guy about 8 times for this very thing because he would do it in a spot I liked to hunt in that was appropriate for my level at the time.  He is still around, does the same thing, and has never been banned in about 20 levels.  GMs just respond and say we'll look into it but can't tell you what we do or what happens -- basically they don't really care. This guy in question is over 40 now, has 10% gear, and half his gear is from level 10! This is all he does to get xp.</P> <P>So to me, this is implicit approval by the devs to xp camp. If you want to, go ahead.  They apparently don't care and won't do anything about it. More power!</P>

[bezerker_]

<DIV>Heh, honestly it is not a big deal. An AFK person will kill very slow, while not gaining any vitality. So pretty much what ever they gain AFK would be lost because of no double exp when it comes time to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you shouldnt do it, but lets be honest killing 1 down arrow  green mob every 5 or so minutes is not worth badgering sony into making game breaking fix for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in the end I doubt the benifit is alot ( loose out on double exp  from vitiality gained while logged out ), but you really shouldnt do it, and don;t complain if you get action taken against your account.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HEck I have fallen asleep before camping a spawn, i prolly was killing while alseep also, but I also woke up dead as well. Would not be happy if i got some action on me for falling asleep at the keyboard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[Chog]

<DIV>To play Devil's Advocate...  What is considered unattended play?  If you gain exp and are not at the computer is that un-attended play? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have to leave the computer for any length of time (restroom / phone / door / etc) and the group you are in kills monsters while you are gone, is that a bannable offense?  After all you gained exp while not at the keyboard.</DIV>

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bezerker_01 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heh, honestly it is not a big deal. An AFK person will kill very slow, while not gaining any vitality. So pretty much what ever they gain AFK would be lost because of no double exp when it comes time to play.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just want to point out that you regen vitality at the same rate logged in or not.  <BR></P>

[Scyros]

<DIV>Try reading your EULA.</DIV>

[Nosewar]

If people read their EULA they'd quit whining every time SOE decides to change something with the game.  It clearly states that we own nothing, it is their intellectual property, and they can/will change any game aspect with or without notifying us at any time.

[Janl]

Chogar, it's not difficult to understand what qualiifes as unattended play.  Running to the restroom for a minute or two and coming back, while technically "unattended" is obviously not what the rule is against.  The rule is to prevent people from going to bed, or going to school/work while their character sits in a safe spot slowly grinding experience for long periods of time while "unattended".<div></div>

[Kapta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <P>Yes, it is a bannable exploit.</P> <P>Edit:  All unattended play is considered an exploit with the exception of merchant mode.</P> <P>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:27 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's bogus cus no way they can prove intentional or not. Hey there are plenty of times I get up to get the door for company and start to talking and don't get back to my game for like half hour. If my pet has been defending me all the while and I gain some xp well hey that's not an exploit that just plain cool and is part of why I love this game and being a necro. Pretty silly to think I should have to camp everytime I have to leave the game for a bit here and there.</DIV>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>KaptanX wrote:<BR></P> <DIV>That's bogus cus no way they can prove intentional or not. Hey there are plenty of times I get up to get the door for company and start to talking and don't get back to my game for like half hour. If my pet has been defending me all the while and I gain some xp well hey that's not an exploit that just plain cool and is part of why I love this game and being a necro. Pretty silly to think I should have to camp everytime I have to leave the game for a bit here and there.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow.</P> <P>It's people like you who ruin a good thing.</P> <P>AFK XP is wrong, and you know it.<BR></P>

[Nosewar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Janl wrote:<BR>Chogar, it's not difficult to understand what qualiifes as unattended play.  Running to the restroom for a minute or two and coming back, while technically "unattended" is obviously not what the rule is against.  The rule is to prevent people from going to bed, or going to school/work while their character sits in a safe spot slowly grinding experience for long periods of time while "unattended".<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And how do the GMs determine "why" a toon is afk and "where" the player is?  Without cams to watch the players play at home, there isn't any way to prove misconduct.  This is not enforceable which is probably why no real action is ever taken.  PL to the peoples!!

[Kapta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GPA_Shipwreck wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>KaptanX wrote:<BR></P> <DIV>That's bogus cus no way they can prove intentional or not. Hey there are plenty of times I get up to get the door for company and start to talking and don't get back to my game for like half hour. If my pet has been defending me all the while and I gain some xp well hey that's not an exploit that just plain cool and is part of why I love this game and being a necro. Pretty silly to think I should have to camp everytime I have to leave the game for a bit here and there.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow.</P> <P>It's people like you who ruin a good thing.</P> <P>AFK XP is wrong, and you know it.<BR></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>That's funny. Your response suggests you think I do this on purpose to gain xp. Perhaps you did not get what I was saying. I was trying to say that I am not going to log out of the game everytime I have to get up for a bit. By bit I mean around 30 minutes or less. I hate the whole loading process, my computer kinda slow these days, and if I am gonna be gone just 30 minutes or less than I don't want to have to log out. Ok, so I hope that part is clear. Now, where do I leave my character, well generally I leave my character in a safe spot where I think nothing is going to spawn, but sometimes that is not the case. If I am a long way from home, or the entrance to a zone, I am not going to run all the way back or call home just to get up for a bit. Thus somtimes I leave my character in a precarious spot where I may or may not be totally safe. There have been times I come back and my character is dead. In the past it was cus of people training stuff my way (though that is now fixed). THat sucks but hey my fault for getting up and leaving character unattended. Ok, so now the final part of what I wanna say to clarify what I was trying to say before. If I come back to my computer and my character is not dead, and in fact has gained xp, well that is like a happy accident. It was not intentional, but it happened. That is all I was trying to say. </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by KaptanX on <span class=date_text>11-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:07 PM</span>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Janl wrote:<BR>Chogar, it's not difficult to understand what qualiifes as unattended play.  Running to the restroom for a minute or two and coming back, while technically "unattended" is obviously not what the rule is against.  The rule is to prevent people from going to bed, or going to school/work while their character sits in a safe spot slowly grinding experience for long periods of time while "unattended".<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am not arguing what the rule was "supposed" to prevent.  By the letter of the rules (as people have explained them so far), gaining exp while AFK is against the rules.  At what point is being AFK for a restroom break turn into unattended play?  1 minute?  5 minutes?  30 minutes?  12 hours?  If unattended play is against the rules any exp gained while AFK is breaking the rules.  There is no stipulation on time away from the computer.  All I am saying is if the rule is to be inforced then most players need to be banned from the game (me including), since I have never seen anybody leave a group or log out to use the restroom yet.   

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaptanX wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's funny. Your response suggests you think I do this on purpose to gain xp. Perhaps you did not get what I was saying. I was trying to say that I am not going to log out of the game everytime I have to get up for a bit. By bit I mean around 30 minutes or less. I hate the whole loading process, my computer kinda slow these days, and if I am gonna be gone just 30 minutes or less than I don't want to have to log out. Ok, so I hope that part is clear. Now, where do I leave my character, well generally I leave my character in a safe spot where I think nothing is going to spawn, but sometimes that is not the case. If I am a long way from home, or the entrance to a zone, I am not going to run all the way back or call home just to get up for a bit. Thus somtimes I leave my character in a precarious spot where I may or may not be totally safe. There have been times I come back and my character is dead. In the past it was cus of people training stuff my way (though that is now fixed). THat sucks but hey my fault for getting up and leaving character unattended. Ok, so now the final part of what I wanna say to clarify what I was trying to say before. If I come back to my computer and my character is not dead, and in fact has gained xp, well that is like a happy accident. It was not intentional, but it happened. That is all I was trying to say. </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by KaptanX on <SPAN class=date_text>11-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your argument strongly implied that since it was possible, it should be OK to do it. And one could say that rollng through a deserted 4-way Stop sign is a waste of your time and you aren't gonna do it. But it is still illegal, and if you get a ticket you deserve it, and you know it. You gambled the Man wouldn't catch you. But even that is not the point.</P> <P>People trying to tiptoe the line are just gonna get us nerfed again. And most of us really don't want to see that happen. If you would not do it in front of a GM, then you know it is wrong, so just don't do it. </P>

[Scyros]

<DIV>Dev's have posted in the past on similar issues.  EULA doesn't address this directly.  But the general rule of thumb is if it uses a bug or some type of coding error then it's an exploit for sure.  If a player is simply useing game mechanics then it's not an exploit.  The only exception to this is if there is no reasonable chance the mob/mobs will kill you then it's in a grey area.  It's the basic risk vs. reward rule.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, this type of play is not without risk. May not be high risk but your also only getting minimal xp and no loot.  The only way to get loot would be to use a 3rd party tool, which would then make this a violation of the EULA.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of it all the Dev's probably don't like this type of play and it is a pretty cheep way to lvl.  But I don't see any reason you would be banned for it.  When reading the EULA and Rules of Play, don't read into it.  What it says is what it means.  This is no different than when rangers and assassins could bow kite.  Low risk easy xp.  Dev's fixed that and I'm sure they will fix this as well.  Until then, if you chose to play like this then knock yourself out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a side note though, I wouldn't do this because all it does it encourage SoE to Nerf out pets down so it's not possible.  Example: Root parking ^^^ heroics with lich proc and killing from a safe distance.  SoE fix, Nerf the crap out of root/snare/lich.  </DIV>

[Thumatos]

This is getting old.  its almost exactly similiar to a previous post.  To that one i replied.  It is an exploit.  i petitioned a gm and asked them if it would be alright for me to go afk in a green area and let my pet kill the mobs that agro me.  he replied it is definately an exploit, any kind of gaining a ingame bonus away from the screen while afk is considered an exploit and if petitioned, you can be banned for it.  To me its not worht while for just the reasons posted in posts from others,  but be sure it is considered by the gm's a bannable exploit if caught

[nhdjoseywales]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nosewarts wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Janl wrote:<BR>Chogar, it's not difficult to understand what qualiifes as unattended play.  Running to the restroom for a minute or two and coming back, while technically "unattended" is obviously not what the rule is against.  The rule is to prevent people from going to bed, or going to school/work while their character sits in a safe spot slowly grinding experience for long periods of time while "unattended".<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And how do the GMs determine "why" a toon is afk and "where" the player is?  Without cams to watch the players play at home, there isn't any way to prove misconduct.  This is not enforceable which is probably why no real action is ever taken.  PL to the peoples!! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>if the GM sends you tell and you dont respond but he is watching you kill mobs, then im sure thats bannable for not responding to the GM. I personally have had a toon temporarily removed from my eq1 acct for /quitting to avoid talking to a gm over a name violation. trust me they can and will enforce the rules.

[Nosewar]

<DIV>^^^</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can he prove I wasn't just on the toilet with a bad case of squirts?  Thought not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They don't ban people. Like I said, there are several people on Lucan who do it all the time and have been reported several times. Nothing ever happens.  Not enforceable.</DIV>

[KBern]

<P>Catch a GM in a bad mood one day and you can complain and justify it all you want.</P> <P>You all know what is what so quit asking dumb [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] questions trying to find a loophole.</P> <P>If a GM finds you doing it, and is in the mood to take action, you can be banned and there is nothing you can justify about it.</P> <P>Do it if you want, but I will be one of the first people petitioning someone I see doing this because [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who try to eek out little exploits like this are the ones who force the devs to make the changes to the game like the old hit them for one point crap we had to put up with.</P> <P>Odds are you will never get caught, but is that tiny bit of exp worth taking the odd chance that you will find a GM who will take action against you?</P>

[Airindale]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Please everyone let me know what you think of this. I am a level 29 necro and I decided to go AFK in the Ruins of Varsoon. I found a "safe" corner on a ledge that overlooks the circular pit where the clay crawlers spawn. I go to bed and lo and behold I wake up and my pet has been fighting a single up arrow shrieker all night long. I look at my XP and my net gain was 35 percent. (I started at 0 percent into level 29).<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Do you suffer from narcolepsy?</DIV> <DIV>Did someone jump out and hold a ether soaked rag over your face?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Under what circumstances does someone find a "safe spot" in a dungeon and then go to bed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I was a GM, I would ban you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Airindale on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:13 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Airindale on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 PM</span>

[Kapta]

Has anyone, now lets be candid here, received significant xp from one's pet afk. Please lest's be frank and spare all the exaggerations. Really, I mean enough xp that it would be something to freak out about. I have gone afk, and noticed my pet owning some spawns, but if I got xp I really didn't notice it. Most of the mobs that give me significant xp would own my pet if I didn't participate. My big concern in this whole debate is that I am not going to log out of my game just because my pet may attack something and kill it  while I am gone. I sincerely hope that is not a problem, cus frankly it would be ridiculous to think I have to log out of my game just to go afk. I will do my best to find the safest spot possible, but if I park my necro in a area that looked safe but actually turned out not to be than what happens next? Do I get banned because I went afk from a game I pay about 18 bucks a month for. Some of you might say, is it really that big of a deal logging out, well yes to me it is, and I don't feel I should have to log out if I don't want to. I am not hacking the game to my advantage, I am not writing devious macros for hours of autopilot activity, I am merely passively afk in a unsafe zone. See the difference.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Romka wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:That thread is specifically about summoners doing what the OP mentioned, don't know how much clearer it needs to be.  if you're looking for a thread that says unattended gameplay is anything outside of merchantmode that gives your character any permanent benefit, you won't find it... if you're a new player, read that thread and realize the quote posted says that afk xp'ing is against the rules. If you want to argue if doing this is right or wrong, PM a dev as no resonses to this thread has said it's morally wrong to afk xp.  I have no interest in lawyering the point with you, if you're allowed to do this or not is easily inferred by that dev responses context. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Its pretty simple. Noone was banned for being AFK, and noone will be banned. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Its pretty simple, if a GM walked by and saw you doing it, and tried to send you tells but you didn't reply over the course of an extended period of time, you'd wake up and find that your account had been suspended.Accidents happen, you wouldn't get banned for the 1st offense, but leaving your char unattended to harvest exp is an exploit. Learn the difference between and exploit and a hack. A hack is when you use 3rd party programs or tools outside of EQ o produce and in game effect. That's bannable 1st or any offense.Exploiting is specifically <b>abusing</b> in game code or coding/design flaws to create a situation or affect that benefits you in ways that were unintended. If you accidentally did something that duplicated an item, that in itself won't get you in trouble, esp if you /bugged it. But if you did it 1000 times then created 1000 plat from your little trick, yes, thats exploiting and is very very bannable.Now, as for the OP... you didn't get caught, thats cool, but sooner or later if you actually did that on a regular basis, someone would come by and report you, and a GM would see you... All they need to do is try to contact you and take note that your char was online getting exp for 4 hours while you weren't answering tells... thus thay know you were afk. 1st offense I'd bet would be a warning and suspention, after that you'd be gone.As someone else said, the question is, do YOU know its wrong. If you know you're getting over on the system, then yeah its probably not a good thing to keep doing it.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>KaptanX wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <P>Yes, it is a bannable exploit.</P> <P>Edit:  All unattended play is considered an exploit with the exception of merchant mode.</P> <P>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:27 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's bogus cus no way they can prove intentional or not. Hey there are plenty of times I get up to get the door for company and start to talking and don't get back to my game for like half hour. If my pet has been defending me all the while and I gain some xp well hey that's not an exploit that just plain cool and is part of why I love this game and being a necro. Pretty silly to think I should have to camp everytime I have to leave the game for a bit here and there.</DIV><hr></blockquote>You should have to go afk in a place that won't abuse an obvious game flaw. They changed the 1 point of damage mechanic to stop you from benefiting from your pet. The fact that you made this post makes it apparent that you realize the abusive nature of what you're doing. You're effectively cheating the system. You're saying that to stop you from exploiting this system, they should hurt everyone else by making you have to do something besides stand there. This isn't how we do things. I personally hate speed bumps but because of some morons that like to drive 60 MPH through a parking lot, I get to have my car screwed up! No thanks! I'd rather they just get rid of people that can't respect the rules.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Nosewarts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Janl wrote:<BR>Chogar, it's not difficult to understand what qualiifes as unattended play.  Running to the restroom for a minute or two and coming back, while technically "unattended" is obviously not what the rule is against.  The rule is to prevent people from going to bed, or going to school/work while their character sits in a safe spot slowly grinding experience for long periods of time while "unattended".<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And how do the GMs determine "why" a toon is afk and "where" the player is?  Without cams to watch the players play at home, there isn't any way to prove misconduct.  This is not enforceable which is probably why no real action is ever taken.  PL to the peoples!! <hr></blockquote>No actually, I recall a post a while ago, may have been from EQ1, if a GM tries to send you tells and you don't respond... EVER, thats reason enough to warn you. If a GM stands there and watches you get exp and "play the game" from 10pm till 8am, and you never respond to any of their tells or other ways of getting attention, and they tell you flat out they're a GM investigating you for macroing, or afk exping, then you what you get. And all I have to do is /petition to get a GM to look into someone that's not quite right. All in all, AFK expers are no better than macro botters. BTW, the OP is not an AFK exper just because he accidentally did it once. But if he takes this new found knowledge abuses it, then that's wrong.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Nosewarts wrote:<DIV>^^^</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can he prove I wasn't just on the toilet with a bad case of squirts?  Thought not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They don't ban people. Like I said, there are several people on Lucan who do it all the time and have been reported several times. Nothing ever happens.  Not enforceable.</DIV><hr></blockquote>If they went AFK for 20 minutes no problem. If they went AFK for 8 hours, the GM would warn them and kick them offline.If the GM came back the next day, and saw the same char in the same place doing the same thing... Thats an offense.

[Sump]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Romka wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> El Chupacabras wrote: <div></div> <p>Yes, it is a bannable exploit.</p> <p>Edit:  All unattended play is considered an exploit with the exception of merchant mode.</p> <p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class="date_text">11-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:27 PM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote>So, you say that everything what my character (game client) is doing by itself is an exploit?If I leave my character in AFK mode and it will consume food/drink - its an exploit?If i hit autorun and leave my character stuck in wall (even more, in water, to rise swimming skill omg) - its an exploit?No, its not exploit, its game mechanics. You can like it or not - but it is. Your pet is a SPELL, and this spell works in this way. Let me be clear - "this spell summons a minion that will attack (and most likelly kill) enything that attacks you". This is how spell works, this is how SOE made it to work.Of course, AFK exping isnt cute, but if SOE cant find normal way to avoid it - they have to live with it. What they did - they added exp gain check so player had to do at least 1 point of damage to recieve exp. And many people were complaining about it. It was simple solution for SOE to avoid AFK exp, so simple and so stupid. If they spent some more time with coding, I bet they would be able to make something that doesnt hurt regular players and same time avoids AFK exping.Once again, its not an exploit, its game mechanics, the way spell works, spell that SOE gave you.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div><!--StartFragment --> We understand your concerns with this requirement, and we are looking into it now. While the intention of the change was to make it so players can't simply go AFK and gain experience from their pets, this didn't completely stifle botters from exploitation. <strong>As botting and unattended player are against the rules</strong>, we can still go after these players regardless of the change, so we are reconsidering it now. It may be addressed in a coming update. I'll let you know as soon as I do if and when the reversion of this change will take place. <p>Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder </p> <p>Against the rules.  Here's the link:  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=77104&query.id=0#M77104" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=77104&query.id=0#M77104</a></p></div><hr></blockquote>  Where are these rules you speak of?  Its certainly not the EULA thats just legal cr4p to prevent sony from suing you and to prevent you from suing sony.  I type HELP RULES and get UNKNOWN COMMAND.  I type RULES and get UNKNOWN COMMAND.  These things need to be hashed out in a consistent manner, set in stone and put somewhere where they are easily accessible.   I've seen MUD's with more coherent and consistent rulesets.  You link a forum post as your rule definer.  You simply can not expect every player of your game to waste their time in the forums looking for something that may or may not exist.   Put a 3 hour duration on pets, problem mostly solved.  It's not that hard to press a button every 3 hours.  And the cr4p that you can kill while afk shouldnt give you very much xp in 3 hours, if it does, look into weakening pets i guess, i'd consider that overpowered.  Maybe pull characters out of the game after 30 minutes of inactivity, i don't know.  It just blows my mind that this is actually a problem in any game. Sump Sump, The Double Poster</span><div></div>

[Zimike]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Many of times I have grouped with friends and had to go afk while in the group. Sometimes to get food or whatever. They would allow me to remain in the group to get exp until I get back as I would do for them. I am guessing this could be called afk exping,but this is not an exploit or wrong in my book. If your character is afk and manages to gain exp without any macro programing or exploits then it should not be wrong. If the devs do not agree with this then they should put things back to how they had it.. make it so no exp gain for not hitting the mob. I am level 60 so dont care for exp and just thought I would share my view. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Zimike on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 AM</span>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zimike wrote:<BR> Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Many of times I have grouped with friends and had to go afk while in the group. Sometimes to get food or whatever. They would allow me to remain in the group to get exp until I get back as I would do for them. I am guessing this could be called afk exping,but this is not an exploit or wrong in my book. If your character is afk and manages to gain exp without any macro programing or exploits then it should not be wrong. If the devs do not agree with this then they should put things back to how they had it.. make it so no exp gain for not hitting the mob. I am level 60 so dont care for exp and just thought I would share my view. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Zimike on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:08 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No thats not, that akin to powerleveling.</P> <P>You are leaching exp from another player that is at the keys and willingly letting you soak up some of their legally earned exp.  </P> <P>AFK exping is getting exp while no one is actually fighting for you.  It is not a very hard concept to understand really.</P>

[May Ham]

What experienced EQ1/EQ2 player would THINK of parking their toon afk in near ANY possible aggro mobs for hours on end? I have taken quick afk's before respawns in an area (drink,bio,phone, etc.)..same in groups. I have also had emergency afks, where I have died from respawns (expected). With many (safe) spots to afk at (zone in, guards, zone walls, etc.) in any zone, I can't think of any reason someone would park near aggro mobs for hours...except one....

[Scyros]

<DIV>Rule can be found by searching the knowledge base for "rules". But here is a link for those that may find that to difficult. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bin/soe.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=11764&p_created=1099682652&p_sid=UXZhDjVh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTI0JnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9 jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTEmc F9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1ydWxlcw**&p_li=&p_topview=1" target=_blank>http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bin/soe.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=11764&p_created=1099682652&p_sid=UXZhDjVh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTI0JnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9 jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTEmc F9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1ydWxlcw**&p_li=&p_topview=1</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personaly think this type of play is a waste of time and just wrong.  But Blackguard may want to make it more clear in the "Rules" and/or "EULA" because as it reads now this is a totaly acceptable means of play.  That doesn't mean they can't ban you for it. I'm just pointing out that what a Dev says on the boards may not be legaly binding, where as EULA is.  So if you were banned for this you could probably make a good agruement for re-instatment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of the day all of this doesn't really matter anyway.  SoE as any company will always reserver the right to refuse service to anyone for almost any reason.  And they can do they.  Just like they can change the rules at any time without letting you know.</DIV>

[Kapta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> May Ham wrote:<BR> What experienced EQ1/EQ2 player would THINK of parking their toon afk in near ANY possible aggro mobs for hours on end? I have taken quick afk's before respawns in an area (drink,bio,phone, etc.)..same in groups. I have also had emergency afks, where I have died from respawns (expected). With many (safe) spots to afk at (zone in, guards, zone walls, etc.) in any zone, I can't think of any reason someone would park near aggro mobs for hours...except one....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thought I would just give you an actual example. Ok, I was in the middle of sinking sands, at level 51, killing some spiders and what not. Knock, KNock....whose there? Hey its your old friend Becky. Ok Becky, one second. Now I don't own a carpet, so going back is not possible, and I was far from the carpet return spot anyways. And where is a safe spot in the middle of the sinking sands desert? Well there are a couple maybe, but not where I was... ghouls, and spiders, and desert nomads walk all over that desert where I was. So the point is why camp when I know that my pet is guarding me. Now am I gonna get significant xp from a couple of spider pops that my pet may or may not kill. I really honestly don't think so. XP or not, I would not camp, is the whole point. Im not camping when I think I can go afk for a bit, and be safe in perhaps a precariously unsafe area.

[Za]

And the above example is trivial. No one is talking about inadvertent afk exp. Your example if fine. You didn't put yourself in the position to benefit from a design glitch.Exploiting means you intentionally do it for the benefits it provides. So parking yourself in the middle of a bunch of green v arrow mobs, knowing that you could come back 2 days later and have dinged from the greenie exp, that is exploiting, and if you get caught what can you say... You had really bad diarea?

[May Ham]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR>And the above example is trivial. No one is talking about inadvertent afk exp. Your example if fine. You didn't put yourself in the position to benefit from a design glitch.<BR><BR>Exploiting means you intentionally do it for the benefits it provides. So parking yourself in the middle of a bunch of green v arrow mobs, knowing that you could come back 2 days later and have dinged from the greenie exp, that is exploiting, and if you get caught what can you say... You had really bad diarea?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly my point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<P>Simple solution for a Necro if you have to go AFK RIGHT NOW is to FD or Gate.</P> <P>You guys supporting this with examples of how to dance around the line are just gonna land the 1 point nerf back on us.</P>

[Eirgo]

Seriously - how long does it take to cast invis then /camp out???  25secs tops.  Do this or gate - or you have to leave the computer right then FD or /quit.

[Romka]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:25 PM</span>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

Botting is another instantly bannable offense. But we are not speaking of botting, we are speaking of AFK xping. And it IS forbidden, and the 1 point nerf was added to stop it, and all you people trying to see how close you can come to it are going to get it reinstated. And mentioning the specific tools to do it is probably a bad idea.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Romka wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>GPA_Shipwreck wrote:<p>Simple solution for a Necro if you have to go AFK RIGHT NOW is to FD or Gate.</p> <p>You guys supporting this with examples of how to dance around the line are just gonna land the 1 point nerf back on us.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are you talking about? You know what I would do if I'd want afk exp? 1 - Download some simple macro programm that can do simple things such as press buttons, move mouse, click and then repeat it (such as EZMacro) 2 - Park my char in some spot with roaming aggro mobs 3 - Target my pet 4 - Record macro that will press buttons for few spells (dots/nukes), aka doing damage to my pet's target 5 - Go sleep Do you realize that people who want use exploits, unfair play etc -  will ALWAYS do it. Nothing can stop them. This stupid "1 point damage rule" did NOTHING to botters, it just made few problems for honest players. Just sitting AFK isnt an exploit. I dont care what my character is doing and I dont have to care. If it is possible to gain exp while AFK, without ANY 3rd party software, without ANY exploit, without ANY modification to game client - its bad coding. And it isnt my problem and shouldnt be my problem. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>This is the kind of person that drives 55 through a 25 MPH school zone because they can (If they don't want you to do it, then they should code it better mentality). Then when someone puts up speed bumps every 10 feet, they go buy bigger tires so they still can (see, they still didn't code it good enough to stop you).The only way to get rid of these people is to ban them. Just as in RL, they really just don't get it. Rules are made for a reason. We all play by them regardless of if we like them or not. EQ is no different. The <b>abuse</b> of AFK exping is as against the rules of EQ2 as macroing is. It's as wrong as duping is, it's as unfair as speed hacking or using ShowEQ. Yeah, some people do it, but that doesn't mean its right or that any "upstanding" players should condone it. The OP asked a question... The answer has been stated in this thread many times, and that's the bottom line. Poop happens. If you inadvertantly get some exp while you were afk, so be it, no one cares. Its cool. But it IS wrong to use this loophole to abuse the system. Ultimately if you continued to do it, you would risk getting banned, and end up getting EVERYONE nerfed, as SoE attempts to plug a hole that really wouldn't need to be filled if not for ignorant, arrogant, and selfish players.

[Nosewar]

Do what you want. Your $15 and your account. Don't listen to these people telling you what to do with your toon. That's between you and SOE.

[Za]

That's like telling someone "Go ahead and speed, That's between you and the cops."Ultimately it's not about your $15. You pay $15 for abmission ONLY. Just like at a movie theater. If I wanted to pee in my seat cuz I thought it was fun to do, would that be ok? I mean I did pay $10 for that ticket. I suppose by your standards, its perfectly fine as long as management doesn't say anything. HeII, they aught to put plastic coverings over the seats to protect against stuff like that if they really cared.Come on NW, whatever you're smoking is gettin to you... Oh wait, I suppose its none of my business to tell you what to smoke, that's between you and the DEA. I guess they're less bothersome than SoE. 8`)

[Nosewar]

<DIV>To your first analogy, totally different things. One is real life with actual property destruction and potential loss of life.  Which is why if you are speeding, you can be arrested and even have your vehicle seized (ie. new law in Florida for streetracing).  If you xp spawn camp in EQ, if caught you can have your account suspended or banned, at worst causing you to lose your lease on SOE's intellectual property and time invested, however you are not subject to any fines or sanctions outside of your privelaged access to a $15/mo game. Am I the only one around here who realizes this is a game?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the theater, a movie ticket gets you access to a movie viewing, that is all.  Anything you do to their facilities would violate quite a few real life penal codes I imagine.  But yes, it is totally up to you what you do in regards to adhering to laws in your area.  Just have to be ready to face the consequences of your actions -- if you can do that, then more power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing a game service to actual <EM>crime</EM> is stretching things just a bit.  Last I heard nobody went to jail for spawn camping, botting, or whatever else people do to push the envelope on SOE's rules.  People are going to always do what they want.  Human nature.  They just ought to think things through and be ready to accept what happens if you are caught.</DIV>

[ca]

<P>I cannot believe I am saying this but NW is right, there is absolutly no way you can compare actions in a video game, moral or not, to real life crime.</P> <P>If you have downloaded music online without paying for it you have commited a real life crime, and a heck of a lot of us have, if you AFK XP you have commited not a single crime. </P> <P>Before I get killed here let me say I don't think exploiting is right and I would report anyone doing anything like this because I know it could adversley affect our class. The majotr problem is, if you are like the OP you will find out this is an exploit and never do it again, but the vast majority of people who use bots, exploits and various techniques don't care in the slightest what is said in the forums, or in the EULA or how it affects the class, they will do it anyway.</P> <P>Roll through the forums a bit and see exactly how many people get hugely emotionally charged over seemingly simple issues, the important thing to remember is that it is just a game and a-hole or not those people that break the rules are doing it of there own choice and their is nothing you can do to stop them, only SOE can and they most likely won't.</P> <P>I am not trying to put down anything said in here, but recently I ran into a guy in game who was so furious about node camping in SS that he was cussing and insulting everyone around him and cancelled his account. This is a gross overeaction and I wish some of the people that get like this would just take a break, realize it is just a game and enjoy themselves.</P>

[Za]

Ok NW, I don't not see your point (intended double negative), but the "this is a game" line of thinking is very flawed. This is a social gathering as much as any CON, or other gathering that we may attend in real life. As such there are rules and customs that keep everyone from stepping all over everyone else, the same function laws serve in real life.Sure no one is going to die over EQ... until some chemically imbalanced teenager has a bad day... but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have some degree of order, even in a virtual world. If this was Diablo, you'd see no argument from me. If I don't like your server I'll move to another, but with EQ and games like it, we all share 1 server, like it or not, and moving to a different server really does no good, cuz you're still sharing with a few 10s of 1000s of other people.So this is more "real" that you give it credit. I'm real. You (I assume) are real. Real people, that pay real money, and expect SoE to privide a real and fair service to all of us. As in real life I would never tell someone to skirt the law. I would never tell someone it was ok to go around breaking rules that really are in place to help all of us. I certainly don't advise people to do things that will most certainly come back and bit me in the butt. (ie.. if SoE fixes this afk exping problem their solution will probably inconvenience me and others in some way)So you're right, this isn't life or death, but don't be so quick to take and anachist stance on in game issues, just because its a virtual world. Unless of course you're an anarchist in real life. hehe =)<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>11-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[Nosewar]

<P>Without waxing too philosophical on this... How one perceives a virtual world populated with real, albeit anonymous, people will definately impact any player's application of ethics and morals regarding in-game issues.  I've found there to be two very main camps on this issue, the players who seek entertainment and the players who seek escape.  Naturally there are mixes of the two.</P> <P>The players who seek entertainment (me) basically view this as a game and not much more.  I do not emotionally invest in the game because I do not know all you people playing it. If I become frustrated I log off and shut down my computer and resume real life -- all my problems disappear, including the people who might be responsible for them.  Therefore I don't view in-game violations as that big of a deal.  I basically believe that SOE must enforce the rules to the extent that every player who spends $15/mo has a right to a basic level of service. Anyone who impedes the value of that service I pay for needs to be dealt with.  Therefore I don't particularly like node bots, but as for people xp spawn camping...well it annoyed me once at a lower level when a guy did it in a spot I wanted to camp, but overall in the greater scheme of things it does not affect me much if at all.  That's why I say it's between him and SOE. If he chooses to violate SOE's rules, then he must assume the risk and live with the consequences.</P> <P>The players who seek escape are much greater invested in the virtual world, seem to desire actual relationships with other players, and assign significant import to those relationships on a similar level as real life.  When the computer is turned off, those relationships and friendships endure.  Perhaps they even extend beyond the game sometimes.  These people take in-game issues very seriously and often draw parallels between real life ethics and morals regarding personal conduct.  Most RPers are of this type.  This is a difficult type of player to be because real life does not enforce any of the above nor punish violations. Instead conduct is voluntary and based on an honor-system.</P> <P>Perhaps there is a third type of player: the griefer.  These people enjoy venting their real life frustrations in a virtual setting with real people.  While in real life we are subject to laws and social expectations of acceptable behavior, in-game no penal laws have jurisdiction and social expectations are unregulated.  So when pencil-necked meekly office worker Joe comes home from another crappy day in his small cubicle with his jerk boss riding him all day for 12 hours, now he can assume his beefy heavily armored 60th level berzerker and give pwnage to all the people he imagines cause him grief in real life.  He can be a total d!ck and no one can do anything about it.  Meek becomes brash, mediocrity becomes 1337 phat loots d00d.  He compensates for what he can't do, or is afraid to do in real life with real consequences.</P> <P>Frankly I am glad I am the first type so I can ignore the third kind.</P>

[ca]

<P>OMG nose......I......I....take back every nasty thing I have ever said or thought about you and highly appreciate your well spoken and thought out argument here. not only do I agree but am amazed at your solid thinking.</P> <P>I can't even add to that</P> <P>/off</P>

[Za]

Hehehe, funny thing is that NW and I agree alot of the time, and I've always respected his views... although he does like to pull people's chains. heheHe's sarcastic and opinionated, but deffinately not an idiot.====But, we'll agree to disagree on this one. I personally put myself in category 1 as well. But as with any game I play, I don't like playing with people that cheat or abuse flaws in the game. I like to know that we each got to where we're at based on merit and not becasue you know some backdoor hack that I didn't. I certainly would frown on anyone I saw gimping themselves by AFK exping, I'd rate them no better than an EBay-baby.But to each his own.

[Nosewar]

<DIV>Yeah, I usually reserve my biting sarcasm for the people who post things like:  <EM>OMG OMG templars can't DPS teh wizzie!! SOE nerfs teh sucks I quits!</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than that I pretty much get along with people. Except the above said individuals. They tend to get [Removed for Content] with me.</DIV>