The Lich nerf, how bad is it really?

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV> <DIV>Since I'm stuck at work on a beautiful Saturday, I figured I'd go ahead and crunch some numbers for my fellow necros.  This is the Elewood damage chain, it's designed to pack the most damage in the least time while still proc'ing lich as often as possible.  This is exact personal damage at 60 seconds (all DoT timers factored properly, as if the mob dies exactly at 60 seconds) against a single target with averaged damage per tic with all level 60 spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This paper parse uses the spell list on our forum with the exception of lich since I didn't want to use a master for this comparison.  Since HB put up his test toons lich damage of 149 and the pic he has on his website is on the same character during beta (lich did the same damage in beta, only the lifetap was changed), I'll be using his pre-nerf damage of 335.  I can of course drop my int to give the same bonus but 335 is probably close enough for the purposes of this test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As many know, I don't like to use in-game parses when comparing spells and damage since there are too many factors that can give skewed results and basically cause alot of arguing.  Note that my spell chain is highly recast dependant, if you have a laggy connection you won't see my numbers nor will you if you're doing alot of repositioning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fight start!</DIV> <UL> <LI>+1  Abominable Mark</LI> <LI>+3.5  Drawing of Souls</LI> <LI>+6  Blighted Pack</LI> <LI>+8.5  Stench of the Grave</LI> <LI>+11 Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+13.5  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+15  Deathly Coil</LI> <LI>+16.5  Darkness</LI> <LI>+19  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+22.5  Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+25  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+26.5  Dooming Darkness</LI> <LI>+28  Deathly Coil</LI> <LI>+30.5  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+33  Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+35.5  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+37  Deathly Coil</LI> <LI>+38.5  Dooming Darkness</LI> <LI>+41  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+44.5  Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+47  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+49.5  Dooming Darkness</LI> <LI>+52  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+53.5  Deathly Coil</LI> <LI>+56  Siphon LIfe</LI> <LI>+58.5  Death Rot</LI> <LI>+60  Ghastly Stench</LI></UL> <P>There are a couple spots that it can be cleaned up but for the most part that's about the bee's knees for a single target fight, switch dooming darkness for abominable mark if you want for the lower power cost though it's a bit more of a hate draw.</P> <P>Let's get to the stats:</P> <OL> <LI>Lich tics:  27</LI> <OL> <LI>Pre-nerf damage and dps:  9,045 / 150.8 dps</LI> <LI>Post-nerf damage and dps:  4,023 / 67.1 dps</LI></OL> <LI>Death rot tics:  42</LI> <OL> <LI>Damage and dps:  5,166 / 86.1 dps</LI></OL> <LI>Deathly Coil tic:  14</LI> <OL> <LI>Damage and dps:  2,125 / 35.4 dps</LI></OL> <LI>Siphon life tics:  5</LI> <OL> <LI>Damage and dps:  5,000 / 83.3</LI></OL></OL> <P>Total personal stats:</P> <OL> <LI>Damage and dps:</LI> <OL> <LI>Pre-nerf damage and dps:  21,336 / 355.6</LI> <LI>Post-nerf damage and dps:  16,314 / 271.9</LI></OL> <LI>Post-nerf difference:  5,022 damage, 83.7 dps, 31% reduction in personal damage</LI></OL> <P>In the end, is that a big change for a necro?  Probably not once everything is added together, these will be a couple of around about stats but won't be out of line... going to be very conservative with this damage:</P> <OL> <LI>Total damage and dps for pet type spells:  22,800 / 380 dps</LI> <OL> <LI>Swarm pets damage and dps:  9,000 / 150 dps</LI> <LI>Assassin pets damage and dps:  13,800 / 230 dps</LI></OL></OL> <P>So, how much did we do total and lose?</P> <OL> <LI>Total necromancer damage and dps:</LI> <OL> <LI>Pre-nerf:  44,136 / 735.6</LI> <LI>Post-nerf:  39,114 / 651.9</LI></OL></OL> <P>So, how bad is it really?</P> <P>11% damage reduction.</P> <P>Yep, that's it.  Not too big a deal, is it?  Don't get me wrong, I still don't think lich was the one to nerf but it's not as painful as it initially looked.  Unfortunately, I believe that the huge damage of lich caused alot of perception problems and why it's at the forefront for the reduction.  Feel free to discuss away.</P></DIV>

[Named]

<DIV>Nice writup chup, but honestly you're looking at things in a vacuum. Sure, the lich nerf could drop us 11% dps. However, any long fights, take raids for example, if you cast like that YOU'RE GOING TO GET AGRO. You simply CANNOT spam spells like your list implies. You're going to get agro almost every time. I tend to look at the lich nerf more like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre nerf I had to cast 10 spells to do max damage without getting agro.</DIV> <DIV>Post nerf I have to cast 11 spells to do max damage without getting agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly believe that I will be doing the same dps that I was doing pre nerf simply because agro was/is/always will be the capping factor on my damage.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>I cast exactly like that in raids.  Amends is your friend.</DIV>

[Named]

<DIV>Thats like trying to factor Ice lash or dissonant note into your dps calculations. Besides, necros are probally the worst dps class to put amends on. So much of our damage is done via pets that lots of time we don't get the hate that other classes get.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>If I'm amended, absolutely nobody else will get the agro... it's been that way since before revamp and it still holds true.  This is my damage chain and I've actually done 800ish dps without me or anyone else getting agro in raid fights.  After a while you have to back it down but in first minute there is no excuse not to be able to do that damage, even without amends.</P> <P>Edit:  This is also my ^^^ and ^^^ named rotation... I generally use this chain and against names I can very easily run through the whole chain if the groups dps is a little weak and I almost never get agro.  It keeps the tanks working and if they back off even a little I'll get the agro but if everyone brings their "A" game I can run this chain every time.</P><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:58 PM</span>

[Pon]

<DIV>I may sound like and be a complete noob, but what do you mean by "If I'm amended.."</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ponno wrote:<div></div> <div>I may sound like and be a complete noob, but what do you mean by "If I'm amended.."</div><hr></blockquote>Paladin concentration buff that transfers your hate to the pally in varying percentages, think the lowest is 20%ish transferred at level 20 and the highest I've seen was 50%.  The problem I've always noticed (as an outside observer) is it can't keep up with things like an early Ice Comet, even when the amends is on the wizzy.  The trick of an amended necro is to allow them time to get into the direct damage rotation while the pally is building their own hate.  Once those debuffs are on and the lifetaps start popping the agro is locked on the pally not to mention other ways of dumping hate (hint, you don't have to use coil and darkness in the chain). We have alot of tools for pushing various amounts of hate and they're much easier to control than they were pre-revamp when we were debuffing on every spell.</span><div></div>

[Romka]

Can you please make same calculations for group encounters? Lets say, with 4 mobs in encounter. <div></div>

[Boran]

Thanks El Chup for posting this, not quite the way I play but at least lets me know what the actual issue is at the end of the day. The other posts were getting too argumentative as people are not allowed to post there own opinions it would seem, god forbid that we all live in a democracy........ My opinion? don't like this change. Reason? because its not thought out in any way at all by the developers, this is just a knee jerk reaction to a perceived issue with necromancers. This is purely a quick a fix with no thought at all gone into it because it is a lot easier to half the damage on the lich proc than look at our dots etc. In the end I wont quit, I will continue to pay SoE and I will put up with the change, doesn't mean I have to like it though.

[Badd Boy]

Trust me when I tell ya that changes to spells are not "knee jerk" reactions. I don't like the changes, I hate to see it come in. In the end the Necros who know how to play there class will still kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Truth is, if we woulda been made like this in the first place at the revamp there wouldnt be any [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing. Let's let this beast go live check out how we do then make jusdgements. To criticize devs on "knee jerk" reactions to spells and then for you to make comments about the changes without playing them seems a bit hypocritical. Anyhow, I am right there with ya man, I feel your pain. Rest assured though this was not a knee jerk reaction.<div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

Don't get me wrong, the reduction is a little higher than posted.  If it goes live I'll probably stop forcing lich procs as the damage is too low for the power used (80'ish min for 150 damage), figure I'll start just rotating through siphon life and rot, can probably squeeze another rot cast in once all those half second cooldowns are taken out of the rotation and lose a couple of coil tics. Figure lose four procs (596 damage), lose two deathly coil tics (304 damage) and gain another rot (617 damage)... probably worth it when you're keeping around 500 power by not casting lich proc'ers.  That'll drop lich's damage to 3,427 per minute with a minimal reduction in personal dps (just eyeballing the rotation but should be about right, maybe a couple more tics of rot etc. but probably close enough). That's still very weak for a level 50 spell. <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>3500 a minute is not that bad. If you look at ice comet it may hit for ~4k on average. So we do a little less damage, but ours is a proc. Ice comet has a 4 second cast time, ours effectively has no cast time. THAT is a huge advantage. Plus ours regenerates 1% of our mana and the HP drain is easily canceled out by lich procs and lifetaps. It comes down to:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ice comet vs lich</DIV> <DIV>500 or 1000 extra damage vs no cast time</DIV> <DIV>no constant hp drain vs significant hp drain with lots of heals</DIV> <DIV>4-5 second stun vs 1% mana regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like lich personally. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Named88 wrote:<div>3500 a minute is not that bad. If you look at ice comet it may hit for ~4k on average. So we do a little less damage, but ours is a proc. Ice comet has a 4 second cast time, ours effectively has no cast time. THAT is a huge advantage. Plus ours regenerates 1% of our mana and the HP drain is easily canceled out by lich procs and lifetaps. It comes down to:</div> <div> </div> <div>ice comet vs lich</div> <div>500 or 1000 extra damage vs no cast time</div> <div>no constant hp drain vs significant hp drain with lots of heals</div> <div>4-5 second stun vs 1% mana regen.</div> <div> </div> <div>I like lich personally. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Ice comet does that once every 49 seconds, in 49 seconds lich does around 2,800.  That's 30% less damage than IC... I prefer the design of lich as it is very necro'ish but 30% less damage is also uncalled for.</span><div></div>

[xxArcane]

<DIV>I've never taken agro in a raid and I always chain cast as fast as possible. I have all adept 3 spells. So there should be no need for Amends, unless your MT is just not capable of doing his job for whatever reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only time Ive seen anyone take agro from the MT is on a multiple mob encounter where a Warlock AE's too early or something like that..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AND YES, 11% is a HUGE difference in DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It basicaly goes liek this now...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizard</DIV> <DIV>Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Any Fighter Types</DIV> <DIV>Conjurer</DIV> <DIV>Necro</DIV><p>Message Edited by xxArcanexx on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:30 PM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>Are you kidding me? The only class that out dpses me on raids are rangers. NOBODY else consistantly out damages me. Specially not the 200 - 300 dpsing fighters... our pets do more damage then them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You must be doing something wrong if you chain cast spells and get out dpsed by any fighter.</DIV>

[nhdjoseywales]

<P>on a short ae fight with a zerker tanking, he can outdamage a slow necro</P> <P>other than that there is no way a fighter can beat me in damage output</P> <P>i send in pet, send in both dumbfires and the snake pet too if i have him up, then sink in abominable mark, deathly coil, dooming darkness, drawing of souls,and bats, then chain siphon life, death rot, and dooming darkness. if the snake pet isnt up you can use the 30 sec offensive buff on pet, the dot or if safe even the 1k ae</P> <P>for ae torrential and the ae lifetap do about 2k+ damage per mob fast and the recast is decent altho not overpowered and the 1k ae from drawing of souls is a nice bonus when its up</P> <P>so explain how a fighter can do more dps than that, my gf plays a fighter and is curious <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit-forgot to cast bats <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by nhdjoseywales on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 AM</span>

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>If you are fighting a raid mob ^^^, and your tank can keep agro, there is no reason any class should beat a necro in dps.  Remember, most parsers like combat stats do not count in our dogs or stench pet in our dps.  There are like 2 classes that should be able to beat us once in a while on a single ^^^ raid mob, that is rangers and conjurors.  Now keep in mind that is single epic X4 mobs, group mobs is a different thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way EL, you forgot to put Infernal Cloud in place of two of those spells.  This is an extra 2088 damage in place of two of those darkness spells/death rots.  Yea it does take up mana, but in a 1 minute fight we don't need that much mana.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Also I agree with Rizaz,  If you cast all those spells like that you will get agro.  And our paladin does tank a lot of the time with Amends and I have still gotten agro when I go all out.  The cap on our dps is not how we spam spells but how many we can cast without getting agro.  With the perfect pally tank and just all the right classes in the MT group for agro, it is possible to cast like that and not get agro, but that will not last forever, you will die by doing that sooner or later.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by MrGrimm999 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 AM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrGrimm999 wrote:<BR> <DIV>/snip</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way EL, you forgot to put Infernal Cloud in place of two of those spells.  This is an extra 2088 damage in place of two of those darkness spells/death rots.  Yea it does take up mana, but in a 1 minute fight we don't need that much mana.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Also I agree with Rizaz,  If you cast all those spells like that you will get agro.  And our paladin does tank a lot of the time with Amends and I have still gotten agro when I go all out.  The cap on our dps is not how we spam spells but how many we can cast without getting agro.  With the perfect pally tank and just all the right classes in the MT group for agro, it is possible to cast like that and not get agro, but that will not last forever, you will die by doing that sooner or later.</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by MrGrimm999 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:20 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I didn't include the clouds 'cus you won't <EM>always</EM> be able to cast them, that's why none of the drawing of souls spells are included either... feel free to add the extra damage into the rotation if you like, I just put up a safe single target only rotation that can be used in a dungeon or crowded agro/non-agro area.  Note I said nothing about this being a raid only rotation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my all the time single target rotation, I don't know how many times I have to point out that this is my current cast order for single targets... you can agree with each other that I can't cast this way but I do it <EM>all the time</EM>, with every tank type in every single target encounter and consistently do 600-800 dps whether they be group xp mobs or raid targets.  On a raid fight I'd have to back down after the first minute but in the first I run that chain.  My tanks are well trained and know that I'm going 100% on every encounter we fight and are used to my agro generation.</DIV>

[Hoom]

<DIV>An 11% to 12% reduction in Necro dps strikes me as too harsh. No, the sky is not falling, and I have no plans to shelve my Necro. Still, for the hardcore player on high end raids, to the casual player looking to get into a pick-up group w/o a long wait, this is a rather large decrease in dps. If, for example, a small bump in healing and debuffing came with the nerf to Lich, it would be a lot easier to take. As things stand, the change is too large a dps reduction without enhancements to utility, imo.</DIV>

[Gargamel]

<P>I would only add that the 11% reduction in DPS would be the low end.</P> <P>I mean, I'd think El is pretty much one of the most efficient Necros ingame, I certainly don't have a 25step chain timed to the .5s that I regularly use.  Mabye the starting 6-8, but thats it.</P> <P>Anyway, wouldn't Lich account for a much higher percentage of a 'inefficient' player's DPS?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[legaleagle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xxArcanexx wrote:<BR> <DIV>It basicaly goes liek this now...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizard</DIV> <DIV>Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Any Fighter Types</DIV> <DIV>Conjurer</DIV> <DIV>Necro</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I couldn't outdamage a fighter type of my level, I'd delete the toon in embarassment.  I don't think this is the case though.  You think that we only outdamage fighter types right now by less than 11%?  C'mon now.. don't exaggerate.   </P> <P>Wizard and warlocks are supposed to be at the top of the dps chain.  If they weren't, why would anyone play them, except for a challenge?  No pets, no armor and not top dps?  Talk about a mass class exodus.</P> <P>For single target raid ^^^ type enounters, I think we still out dps a conjuror.  With the lich procs, the dots, and throw in a fully loaded set of Drawing of Souls lineup (especially the dot and aoe for over 900, and once its working correctly, Servile Soul), I'd venture to guess we come out on top.  If we weren't on top, we'd be so close that the difference would be negligible.    <BR></P>

[Eirgo]

<DIV>Well I know Im not as effecient as El Chup (not yet anyways!!!), but here is a combined parse of my Scornfeather Roost group last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel it should accurately reflect an average group scenario.  The parse consists of about 30 fights - ranging from ^^^ named to groups of 3 single ^ for the most part.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My group consisted of me, a pally, templar, fury, warlock and swashbuckler.  The other dps classes were lower 50's - so they may have had some problems with resists making the fights last longer in effect giving me more dps, but I dont think it was too significant for our purposes here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Without further ado,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><IMG alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com" src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/ScornfeatherRoostNov6.gif"></P> <P>Now you can see my lich proc'd 288 times for almost 97,958 damage giving an average proc of 340 and totaling to 45% of my personal damage.  (Note I was at max INT due to fury lovin)</P> <P>My total damage for the run was 214,689 + 182,069 + 14,858 + 8,830 + 7,444 = 425,890</P> <P>97,958/425,890 = 23% of my total damage came from lich.</P> <P>Judging from some posts of the changes, I will proc for 150 on average with lich  my new damage totals would be as follows:</P> <P>Lich: 288 x 150 = 43,200  (54,758 reduction)</P> <P>Total: 425,890 - 54,758 = 371,132</P> <P>371,132/425,890 = 87.14% or a reduction in total DPS of <STRONG>12.86%</STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P>Of course I would like to keep it as it is now and not get nerfed, but I know that either way I will still love me necro.  Also, this may impact my dps even less because I will be more apt to use my actual damage spells more often as opposed to using my fast cast spells with little or no damage just for the lich proc.</P> <P>Sorry if that was long winded and any criticism is welcome. </P> <P><EDIT - changed new lich number to 150></P><p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[MrGrimm9]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________<BR></P> <DIV>I didn't include the clouds 'cus you won't <EM>always</EM> be able to cast them, that's why none of the drawing of souls spells are included either... feel free to add the extra damage into the rotation if you like, I just put up a safe single target only rotation that can be used in a dungeon or crowded agro/non-agro area.  Note I said nothing about this being a raid only rotation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my all the time single target rotation, I don't know how many times I have to point out that this is my current cast order for single targets... you can agree with each other that I can't cast this way but I do it <EM>all the time</EM>, with every tank type in every single target encounter and consistently do 600-800 dps whether they be group xp mobs or raid targets.  On a raid fight I'd have to back down after the first minute but in the first I run that chain.  My tanks are well trained and know that I'm going 100% on every encounter we fight and are used to my agro generation.</DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Fair enough, but in a 1 minute fight you should always be able to get off at least one infernal cloud because the recast time is less than a minute.  I see where you are coming at though.  And just think, if you ever fight some mobs that take over 2 minutes to fight, then you can add consumption in there for more dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>At first I was enraged about this nerf to lich, but in the grand scheme of things.  If you know how to play your class, we will still be uber dps.  I think this will mainly hurt our aoe dps.  On 8 mobs that lich proc cut in half on each mob for each of our aoes is going to be more than a 11% reduction, and now thinking about it.  I think that was soe's main goal.  We went back to the zek encounter for old times sake and I could pull out 1100 dps consistantly and 1500 dps with PS.  I think that made warlocks cry to their mothers and soe had to respond.  I think this lich nerf will hurt us the most in those situations.  Which is okay I guess, necros aren't supposed to be the aoe dps class, we are supposed to be kings of the single target sustained dps, which I think we still will be after the nerf.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[El Chupacabr]

Yeah, the hit to AoE damage is the biggie... I'd be much happier if they just changed lich to only proc on a the targeted mob but wutcanyado?

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>I totally agree, I would say up the damage back to the way it was if not more, but it ONLY procs on the mob targetted, would not affect aoe encounters at all.</DIV>

[Elveira]

<P>Just dinged 50 last night, so I've been following this thread (and the others) just sort of absorbing what everyone is saying. Now that I've had a chance to play a little with the App2 version (have a Rhodium, gonna get that scribed pronto) just a couple of random thoughts.</P> <P>Lich is a big deal, it was popping 198 on almost every cast, so even at that low of a level, it was still making a pretty big difference burning stuff down. I can only imagine what the Adept3 version will do, let alone a Master 1. So I can see why folks are protective of it.</P> <DIV>I can personally live with a 10%-ish overall DPS reduction. Do I like it? No. But it's not something I'm going to ditch the class over. Like some others here I also started the game with my necro, only to shelve her at lvl 27 when I got sick of everythnig that was broken. After LU13 I decided to give her a shot again and have been having a ball playing her ever since (SOE nerfing Warden into oblivion made the decision quite a bit easier I will admit). So I've played Necro both horribly broken and now "fixed". My personal take is that while the expected nerf blows, it doesn't "re-break" the class to its pre-LU13 level. Not by a long shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But here's the bigger question... is this the last of the nerfs? If they do this is now everything "balanced"? Or is this a constant, neverending cycle of classes getting nerfed/buffed/nerfed again/buffed again?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE ruined a perfectly good game in SWG because they were constantly catering to all the people shouting "NERF!/BUFF!". Fencers were uber and Pikemen sucked. Now I hear Pikemen own and Fencers suck. And NOW they're ditching the class structure entirely and going with a completely new combat/class system. SOE got caught up in the cycle and it just made the game as a whole more and more broken with every pass at trying to achieve perfect "balance".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE is in danger of doing the same thing to this game. People, more than anything, want some stability. If every LU has everyone cringing as to what is going to be "tweaked" for their class next, people are going to start leaving.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just by way of FYI I popped over to the Wizzy forum. They don't seem too happy with the upcoming changes for them either, and, humorously-enough, kept whining about how they're being out-DPSed by necros. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line... things could be worse, but if things continue at the current rate, they just might be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Elveira on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gargamel wrote:<BR> <P>Anyway, wouldn't Lich account for a much higher percentage of a 'inefficient' player's DPS?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, not at all. Inefficiency would reduce everything proportionately.</P> <P>I mostly agree with Chup's analysis, except that by adding in 2 casts of Infernal Cloud instead of the darkness, the total % nerf from the Lich change would end up looking a bit lower than his percentage. My experience is that the Cloud line is safe to use in 90% of fights.</P> <P>My estimate was 10-12% nerf to total damage EXCLUDING dumbfires, for my playing style, and assuming that the Lich proc was nerfed 50%. Chup is estimating the Lich proc's nerf to be 55% instead of 50%, so that's a bit more pessimistic than I was.</P> <P>So basically I think both our estimates our pretty comparable.</P> <P>For me personally, this discussion has helped me realize that I need to use Death Rot a lot more, and I'm guessing that my personal dps isn't gonna be hit by 10-12%... more like 5-7% because I was already performing 5% below max. <BR></P> <p>Message Edited by XBrit on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>

[legaleagle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><IMG alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com" src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/ScornfeatherRoostNov6.gif"></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You had crushing damage?!?!?!<BR>

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> legaleagle97 wrote:<BR> <P>You had crushing damage?!?!?!<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Swarm of Bats does crushing damage.<BR>

[Nosewar]

<DIV>It's teh end of teh world! Necros are done fro!</DIV>

[Eirgo]

<DIV>I assume you are talking about me and not my pet.  And yes - I gave the old wand a swing or two in hopes of one day getting the skill up to the cap.  And 38 extra damage never hurt anybody!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did use my disease servant for one named in there becuase the group said she was piercing/slashing resistant.  Of course they went ahead and pulled her right after I dismissed my assassin, leaving me summoning for the first half of the fight - but oh well : )</DIV>

[Kamce]

<span><blockquote><hr>XBrit wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div><p>For me personally, this discussion has helped me realize that I need to use Death Rot a lot more, and I'm guessing that my personal dps isn't gonna be hit by 10-12%... more like 5-7% because I was already performing 5% below max. </p> <hr></blockquote> I, like XBrit, have found that the impact will be less for me than some others as I was clearly not maximizing the lich effect when playing.  I will need to look at my numbers a bit closer when I get home to see just how much it will impact me but I don't really see it changing my enjoyment of playing my necro. Maria - 52 Necromancer - The Seekers - Permafrost Kamce - 50 Guardian - The Seekers - Permafrost </span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR>Yeah, the hit to AoE damage is the biggie... I'd be much happier if they just changed lich to only proc on a the targeted mob but wutcanyado? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Why? Seems to me that I'd rather hit 4 mobs for 150 than 1 mob for 300? <BR><BR>GREAT thread. I agree 100% with some added love to balance out the re-balancing though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG>Hit all at 150 (five target):</STRONG><BR>AoE=750 <DIV>AoE=750</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark=150</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark=150</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark=150</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark=150</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Hit one at 330 (five targets):</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>AoE-330</DIV> <DIV>AoE-330</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark-330</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark-330</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark-330</DIV> <DIV>Horrific Mark-330</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2,100 (AoE) vs. 1,980 (single target)... I'll take that tradeoff.  I can't say I've ever been able to cast any more than that in a group situation.  PBAoE, the 150 damage is higher though with the post-live update change of 8 total targets it wouldn't be that big a deal.</DIV>

[XBr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Elveira wrote:<div></div> <div> </div> <div>Just by way of FYI I popped over to the Wizzy forum. They [...], humorously-enough, kept whining about how they're being out-DPSed by necros.</div> <hr></blockquote>They are correct. We can argue about the severity, but it was reasonable and expected that something be done.</span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>XBrit wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Elveira wrote:<div></div> <div> </div> <div>Just by way of FYI I popped over to the Wizzy forum. They [...], humorously-enough, kept whining about how they're being out-DPSed by necros.</div> <hr></blockquote>They are correct. We can argue about the severity, but it was reasonable and expected that something be done.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Heck, change lich to the "test" damage, modify it to only hit the targeted mob and increase the damage from the coil line... that would drop our burstiness down quite a bit while still giving us a good long haul damage capability.  I think a 30% vice 55% reduction is a bit more reasonable as would be a change to single target hit only but I'd really like to see some improvement in the sub-par damage of our long duration DoT (coil).  Of course, decreasing ice comets recast to 30 would accomplish the same thing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Edit:  And switch coil to a toggleable (like the mark line) so you can't do what I do to force procs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:14 PM</span>

[Uglukson]

<FONT size=2> <P>I can't help but think there's an additional motive behind this adjustment. Drop our Lich proc damage by 50%, you make it a lot slower (and as a consequence more risky) to solo melee heroic mobs via the chain root method. Assuming you root - stun - siphon life - mark - root every time stun refreshes, you're probably going to slow killing via this method by something in the order of 70-80%. This makes the process more risky and less worthwhile (not that anyone XPed in this fashion anyway).</P> <P>Now, necros were never the kings of soloing like this, there are a few classes that can do it better, but this nerf to Lich certainly slows us down a lot. I think that the decision to nerf the Lich's Siphoning effect had something to do with this technique as well as being a way to wind back our DPS some.</P></FONT>

[XBr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Uglukson wrote:<font size="2"> <p>I can't help but think there's an additional motive behind this adjustment. Drop our Lich proc damage by 50%, you make it a lot slower (and as a consequence more risky) to solo melee heroic mobs via the chain root method. Assuming you root - stun - siphon life - mark - root every time stun refreshes, you're probably going to slow killing via this method by something in the order of 70-80%. This makes the process more risky and less worthwhile (not that anyone XPed in this fashion anyway).</p> <p>Now, necros were never the kings of soloing like this, there are a few classes that can do it better, but this nerf to Lich certainly slows us down a lot. I think that the decision to nerf the Lich's Siphoning effect had something to do with this technique as well as being a way to wind back our DPS some.</p></font> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Er, no. We were simply doing too much damage, and this was the easiest way to dial everything down a bit.</span><div></div>

[Named]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Included in an update soon for the test server for LU16 includes 2 upgrades in DoT spell damage for the Necromancer's 'Withering Affliction' and 'Blight' spell lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason for the reduction in Lich damage was evident because in how its proc benefit alone can often outdamage spells like Ice Comet and Blazing Presence in its overall damage per second. Necromancers post 50 are close to where we wanted them to be overall, but they were doing too much damage through one spell (with power regeneration benefits that don't follow the cap rules). More of their damage was weighted towards a single spell, so what about all of those Necromancer's that aren't level 50 yet? The pre to post level 50 game shouldn't be such an imbalance within a class, and looking at the change to Lich justified improving other spell lines the Necromancer has throughout their adventuring that will help them level, including post 50.</DIV> <P></P> <DIV>===========================<BR>Jared Sweatt<BR>EverQuest II Spells and Combat Designer</DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blue skies. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

See?  Everyone listens to the El <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <div></div>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:See?  Everyone listens to the El <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <div></div><hr></blockquote>See, a rational post got a rational response!!! WOOOT!

[El Chupacabr]

My posts are always rational <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... the ones I start anyways, I'm as prone to quick judgement as the next guy in responses. <div></div>

[Elveira]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Named88 wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Blue skies. :</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Black death. (in true Necro fashion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P> <P>Message Edited by Elveira on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:42 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Elveira on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 PM</span>

[Nosewar]

<DIV>Does this mean we don't get plate armor?</DIV>

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nosewarts wrote:<BR> <DIV>Does this mean we don't get plate armor?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Bah who cares about lich procs and our damage lines??</P> <P>I WANT PLATE!!!!!!</P> <P>thats it - Im quitting</P> <P>you can all have my stuff</P>

[Gargamel]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well I know Im not as effecient as El Chup (not yet anyways!!!), but here is a combined parse of my Scornfeather Roost group last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel it should accurately reflect an average group scenario.  The parse consists of about 30 fights - ranging from ^^^ named to groups of 3 single ^ for the most part.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My group consisted of me, a pally, templar, fury, warlock and swashbuckler.  The other dps classes were lower 50's - so they may have had some problems with resists making the fights last longer in effect giving me more dps, but I dont think it was too significant for our purposes here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Without further ado,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you can see my lich proc'd 288 times for almost 97,958 damage giving an average proc of 340 and totaling to 45% of my personal damage.  (Note I was at max INT due to fury lovin)</DIV> <P>My total damage for the run was 214,689 + 182,069 + 14,858 + 8,830 + 7,444 = 425,890</P> <P>97,958/425,890 = 23% of my total damage came from lich.</P> <P>Judging from some posts of the changes, I will proc for 150 on average with lich  my new damage totals would be as follows:</P> <P>Lich: 288 x 150 = 43,200  (54,758 reduction)</P> <P>Total: 425,890 - 54,758 = 371,132</P> <P>371,132/425,890 = 87.14% or a reduction in total DPS of <STRONG>12.86%</STRONG><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Right, but thats what I said, El said like 10%, or 11% to be precise.  You calculated much closer to 13%.  You might not be the most efficient, and even said you're not as good as El and you had 2% more nerf-age than him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So common in MMOs where devs try to balance out and define 'average' skill which will be the control when balancing player skill and powers.  Same with weapons in MOFPS's balancing 'ease of use' (cone of fire, cone expansion recoil, dmg) with pure stats (like dmg, or armor absorbtion)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that you parse, and are with it enough to have it all in nice neat tables, AND are posting on the forums... I'd still put you in the 85th percentile (El more up in the 95th).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, my point is that this will hurt the more noobish Necros that don't pay such close attention, and could be more like 15% +  DPS reduction for 'button smashers'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lesson is... pay more attention  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gargamel on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 PM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>I'm not sure why lich accounts for so much extra of your damage. It is only about 30% of my personal dps, and The nerf will only lower my total dps by 7 or 8%. I'm not getting numbers where lich is doing half my damage or 13% nerfs and stuff like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can kind of see why sony is changing things like this -- they simply don't want proc damage doing such a significant amount of your dps. They also nerfed many other classes' procs just like lich was nerfed.</DIV>

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gargamel wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>snip<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Right, but thats what I said, El said like 10%, or 11% to be precise.  You calculated much closer to 13%.  You might not be the most efficient, and even said you're not as good as El and you had 2% more nerf-age than him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So common in MMOs where devs try to balance out and define 'average' skill which will be the control when balancing player skill and powers.  Same with weapons in MOFPS's balancing 'ease of use' (cone of fire, cone expansion recoil, dmg) with pure stats (like dmg, or armor absorbtion)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that you parse, and are with it enough to have it all in nice neat tables, AND are posting on the forums... I'd still put you in the 85th percentile (El more up in the 95th).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, my point is that this will hurt the more noobish Necros that don't pay such close attention, and could be more like 15% +  DPS reduction for 'button smashers'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lesson is... pay more attention  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gargamel on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I definately agree with your lesson : )</P> <P>I changed around my cast order a bit and sustained over 800DPS last night over a 2:16 fight vs a deception drakota</P> <P>I have been reviewing my parses from the night before on breaks at work and have been able to gradually improve my average DPS.  It also lets me see what my group members are doing so I can make similiar suggestions to them.  My guild has a ton of necros, and some of them just loved thier mage and tank pets for all occasions and no matter how many times I told them to use the scouts they didnt listen - until I posted parses on our guild site showing my lower level pet doubling their pet's damage.</P> <P>It also helps to single out those mobs that are resistant to a certain damage type so you can switch out pets for crushing, piercing, or slashing damage (thanks to El Chup for the tip on resummoning scout pets).<BR></P>

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm not sure why lich accounts for so much extra of your damage. It is only about 30% of my personal dps, and The nerf will only lower my total dps by 7 or 8%. I'm not getting numbers where lich is doing half my damage or 13% nerfs and stuff like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can kind of see why sony is changing things like this -- they simply don't want proc damage doing such a significant amount of your dps. They also nerfed many other classes' procs just like lich was nerfed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well in the above posted parse it accounted for 23% of my total damage.  In the raid last night it accounted for about 17% (due to more dd's and less spaming low/no damage spells)</P> <P>If you dont count the scout pet - basically double the above numbers for me.</P> <P>I think the nerf will end up only lowering my total damage by less than 10% (now that Im a bit more efficient) and I assume most of that will be made up by the increase in the two spell lines and the scout pet dps.</P> <DIV><edit></DIV> <DIV>After going over the numbers from last nights raid, I would have lost 150 damage (or so) per each of 48 lich procs dropping my DPS from 807 to 753 for a <STRONG>6.7% </STRONG>total dps decrease</DIV> <DIV></edit></DIV><p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[Uanelven]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:<div></div><span> Edit:  And switch coil to a toggleable (like the mark line) so you can't do what I do to force procs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>Its the fact that the one second cast mark line is toggleable that I can proc Lich so much anyway.  They could just remove its connection to lich to decrease the amount of rapid damage we can do.   If that's what they want. Very disheartning to think of us as dps not even in the same tier as other damage dealers without any real group utility advantage.    Not saying changes do this but they will drop me quite a bit unless they come good on the DOT upgrades which they haven't I hear. The fear and snare changes stink of giving us solo bones to chew on.     I was kinda lonely, bitter and twisted in the end as an eq1 necro.   I don't want the same thing to happen here.</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p>[Edit:  Don't mean to sound negative.   Just that stupid dps tree still bothers me looking forward.<p>Message Edited by Uanelven on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:41 AM</span>

[Named]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>After going over the numbers from last nights raid, I would have lost 150 damage (or so) per each of 48 lich procs dropping my DPS from 807 to 753 for a <STRONG>6.7% </STRONG>total dps decrease</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:39 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, its alot smaller drop then people were predicting...</DIV>

[ShadowedFlame]

<P>My necro is only level 30. At level 28 I read El's spell cycle and got to thinking that I was probably not doing near as much damage as I could, partuclarily by not using the rot spells often enough, so I started casting it (adept III) every time it was available, which at my level is pretty much every other cast. That simple change added close to 20% to my personal dps, although you can't be as lazy. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>It nice to read a forum where there is actual usefull information and tactics posted. I see a lot of crying nerf and SOE bashing, but amidst that there are some great posts that are helping me to be a better player.  Thanks for that.</P> <P>My 2 copper.... hitting level 50 shouldn't make you suddenly hugely more effective than a level 49 necro.  Perhaps fixing the dots and nerfing the proc is the correct way to go.</P> <P> </P>

[Nibbl]

So what is the percentage soloing while using the tank pet?

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>I duno, maybe I am just paranoid or something, but looking at my preliminary parses, it seems I am doing much much less than 15% dps of normal.  I have yet to really try this out on a raid scale (there are certain mobs that I know what dps I get every time).  Maybe I am just worried, but I think we have more stealth nerfs than most realize.  Start paying attention to your overall dps and see if you think it actually went down by 15% (as we have discussed). </DIV>

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>Man, I was just looking at how the lich nerf really affected our aoe damage, ouch heh.  But I guess that is okay, necros were never meant to do good aoe damage.</DIV>

[Abazagorath]

<P>To me, the lich nerf is pretty freaking bad, but it's not TERRIBLE for DD, single target fights.  I have a lot of master spells and for a few weeks, Lich was at the top of what I consider to be my list of best spells.  M1 Lich with my int self buffed proc'd for around 385 dmg.  Now, with the same buffs up, Lich procs for ~175.  So, considering that I spam cast a lot in raids (and yes, I can pull aggro in raids if I try), I am losing around 210 DPS from Lich getting nerfed.  Sure, the 10 or so extra points to the Stench line is nice, but not enough to distract me from the fact that I am still down 200 DPS.  I don't see why Lich got nerfed to be honest.  It was a very powerful spell and still is, but this nerf just seemed totally unnecessary.  We are SUPPOSED to be a high DPS class, so if other classes that should have been topping us out on DPS were not, they should have gotten buffed instead of nerfing us.  Furthermore, in raid parses since the patch, conjurors are still capable of doing a ton of damage and our conjuror now consistently outDPSes me, whereas it used to be a competition.  </P> <P>Where I am terribly dishearted by the Lich nerf is not on single target mobs, but on AE encounters.  We were MASSIVE AE damage, especially across 2+ encounters with the cloud line, the AE from Drawing of Souls, and Lich.  I could regularly do over 1k DPS on 2+ encounters.  Instead, our PATHETICALLY weak in-encounter AE (again, which I have a master of) doesn't come anywhere close to what we used to be able to do.  Just to give those who don't have an idea, I was helping a level 22 warlock friend clear some mobs in TS.  So that he would still get credit, he would pull with an AE and then I would AE them to get aggro.  His level 20 AE does an incredible amount of direct damage, far moreso than my level 50 master TP.  So, if he pulled with his AE, I could only get aggro by using my Cloud AE because TP was too weak to pull aggro from a level 22 warlock who cast one spell.  How can it be justified that a level 20 warlock with an adept 3 AE can out damage me at 60 with a master level 50 AE?  It's a joke.  Now, getting back to the point, our out of encounter AE is limited now to 8 targets, the Drawing AE can only be used once and on average can only be received a couple of times per hour with spamming that skill and leaving all other spells in the book, but at least our in encounter AE is doing the amazing damage of less than 200 DD without Lich...?  We got nerfed HARD for AE fights IMO.</P> <P>While some people wish to argue that an 10-25% decrease in DPS isn't terrible, let's throw some rough numbers out.  On average in a fight, I was doing 800 DPS.  Take away 10-25% of that and I am losing 80-200 DPS.  In a one minute fight (let's say against a x4 epic), I am losing 4,800-12,000 DPM.  That is a HUGE amount, and on close fights, that can be more than enough to make the difference between killing the last few % of a mob's hitpoints or a wipe.  This is not enough to say that our class is broken, to threaten SOE with cancelling my account, rerolling another alt, etc., but it is very disconcerting when your class gets the axe on a class-defining spell.</P> <P>/Yggy.</P><p>Message Edited by Abazagorath on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:10 AM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>You're lich didn't drop 200 dps, the absolute most damage your lich could ever do single target was 257 dps and the absolute most single target yours can do now is 117 dps or a 140 dps loss.</P> <P>1 second cast time abominable mark + 500 millisecond cooldown = 1.5 seconds per lich cast or 40 casts per minute maximum.  Most people don't run this combination because it uses too much power and forsakes the two second cast time spells (rot and siphon specifically). </P>

[Abazagorath]

<DIV>I am not most people.  I have geared myself so that I have great regen and can afford to spam cast without running out of power, especially if I am grouped with a bard or a chanter, plus M1 Lich gives 2% power per tick instead of 1.  My Lich spell lost around 210 damage to the proc, and counting casting times, in a minute, let's say you could hypothetically cast 20 spells that would all proc Lich.  Well, you have just lost 4,200 damage per minute.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Abazagorath on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Abazagorath wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am not most people.  I have geared myself so that I have great regen and can afford to spam cast without running out of power, especially if I am grouped with a bard or a chanter, plus M1 Lich gives 2% power per tick instead of 1.  My Lich spell lost around 210 damage to the proc, and counting casting times, in a minute, let's say you could hypothetically cast 20 spells that would all proc Lich.  Well, you have just lost 4,200 damage per minute.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Abazagorath on <SPAN class=date_text>11-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:14 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>4,200 damage per minute is 70 dps.  Look at the very first post on this thread, do you think I'm most people either?

[Fierce Ra]

After playing with the changes for a couple of days on the live servers, my observations is this.  First, nothing in my casting rotation has changed since this nerf and the lich nerf is noticeable.  To the point that it takes an extra damage spell to kill a green mob and increases depending on what the mob cons.  Next, the increase to our DOT's is very disappointing.  I would have liked to have seen torrential plague's cast time reduced to 2 seconds instead of 3 seconds.  One thing I have noticed is that my pet is tanking better than he ever has.  Maybe that's because the decrease in DPS because of the nerf, but either way I am not complaining. 

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>I duno, I have noticed that now my conj buddy is outdamaging me on solo mobs as well as aoe encounters if he tries.  And I only beat him on solo encounters when consumption is up, something seems amiss!</DIV>

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>Havent tried a raid situation yet though</DIV>

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>Who thinks that lich should do like 400-500 damage per cast, but ONLY affect your targetted mob?  That would allow us to have great dps on solo mobs in long encounters, while pretty crappy aoe damage, which is my personal vision for necro dps. </DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrGrimm999 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Who thinks that lich should do like 400-500 damage per cast, but ONLY affect your targetted mob?  That would allow us to have great dps on solo mobs in long encounters, while pretty crappy aoe damage, which is my personal vision for necro dps. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Of course I don't have a problem with it and I think it should include only proc'ing on your disease damage... that'd round it all out and keep us from forcing the proc.</DIV>

[Named]

I do about the same damage as assassins and sorcerors now. Rangers still blow me away, but I'm within the top 5 every raid.

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> I do about the same damage as assassins and sorcerors now. Rangers still blow me away, but I'm within the top 5 every raid.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Skilful and well equipped Rangers blow everyone away for <EM>personal</EM> dps. On the other hand , if you look at the huge list of spells the rangers are firing off in a raid fight, and the positional and stealth requirements, you have to respect the l33t skill involved. Whereas we are doing 50% of our damage with fire and forget pets.</P> <P>If I get all the pets positioned right, and add in my dogs and corpse damage, I have a reasonable shot to match our 2 uberest rangers for <EM>total</EM> dps. But it's a challenge.   </P> <P>I feel kind of sorry for the poor assassins ( except when they hijack our forum :smileymad: ). They must totally be wondering why Sony hates them so much compared to Rangers.</P><p>Message Edited by XBrit on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 AM</span>

[Named]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XBrit wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> I do about the same damage as assassins and sorcerors now. Rangers still blow me away, but I'm within the top 5 every raid.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Skilful and well equipped Rangers blow everyone away for <EM>personal</EM> dps. On the other hand , if you look at the huge list of spells the rangers are firing off in a raid fight, and the positional and stealth requirements, you have to respect the l33t skill involved. Whereas we are doing 50% of our damage with fire and forget pets.</P> <P>If I get all the pets positioned right, and add in my dogs and corpse damage, I have a reasonable shot to match our 2 uberest rangers for <EM>total</EM> dps. But it's a challenge.  <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Fire and forget pets do a max of ~150 dps. If you're doing 300 dps total then there is no way that you're out damaging rangers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Rangers have 1 positional bow shot -- Culling of the Weak. It does 1000 - 1700 damage. If you call having to position yourself to use 1 medium damage spell 133t skill, then yeah..... They have 1 positional spell compaired to our 2 dumbfire pets and our pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now not only do their spells do insane amounts of damage, but they all proc based on the bow's long delay, therefore they proc most of their procs every single time they hit. Plus they can use poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers > Necros in terms of dps in every single case.<BR></DIV>

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Rangers > Necros in terms of dps in every single case.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You're in a more hardcore raid guild than I am, so we may be looking at different tiers of mobs. We've only been raiding seriously for a couple weeks since the expansion, so my info is for stuff like Lockjaw, the MajDul Sphinxes, King Zalek. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My parses show I'm pulling 500+ dps for me and Nightshade combined on most raid fights (parses since LU16 included). Add 150 for dumbfires, and that's getting up there. Maybe for tougher raids, things change and the Rangers pull way ahead?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I need to get more parses.  </DIV>

[Named]

<DIV>That may be it, most DoF mobs have insane AEs which really limit my pet's max damage, which usually drops me by ~100 dps. Rangers don't have this problem however.</DIV>