Lich nerf seems about right to me

[XBr]

<DIV>I looked at my parses for a long Cyclops XP group last night. So these were a bunch of 10-25 second fights over 3 hours. I have maxed out INT, and many major spells (including Lich, Assassin pet and pet buffs) at Master. Parser ran continuously, so the dps numbers include downtime between fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me (excluding pet): 1,755,877 damage, or 167.0 dps.</DIV> <DIV>Assassin pet: 1,034,429 damage, or 98.4 dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of that total 265.4 dps, Lich was 60.0 dps, followed by Infernal Cloud (54.3), Siphon Life (35.7), and everything else was under 10. I work hard to max my Lich procs, so this is probably about the most a person could get from it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, we cut Lich in half, and 30 dps goes away. Just a bit over 10% of total dps. To me, that's just about right for how overpowered we were.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For short fights like this, I don't use Bats or dumbfire pets, and Torrential Plague gets used only occasionally. For longer fights, the extra damage from these spells (especially the 150-200 dps from dumbfire pets) would make Lich even less important. So the dps nerf for long fights is probably quite a bit less than 10%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only slight surprise in LU16b is that rangers and conjurors came out of it un-nerfed. Although necro, in my experience, was THE most overpowered dps class.</DIV> <P>[ Edit: parse info for some longer fights is here. Halving Lich is consistently a 10-12% nerf to dps excluding dumbfires. <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=13468#M13468" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=13468#M13468</A> ]</P><p>Message Edited by XBrit on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Za]

Thanks for the post. I expect to see alot of haters and flamers posting about how doomed Necs are... but thats complete BS. I'll miss the extra damage, but in all honesty, it was bound to happen. I too am supprised that conjurors didn't get fixed as well, but again, I'd tell them not to be too cocky... LU17 is right around the corner.

[KBern]

<P>As I said, my main problem is the extreme health cost still attached to this spell.</P> <P>If the damage is reduced, the health cost should be adjusted also.  I am not saying 1:1 since Lich still gives us a minor (MINOR) heal, and incredible power regen.</P>

[Nosewar]

<DIV>As the EQ2 forums resident curmudgeon and contrarian, I support any and all nerfs!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 devs = teh win!</DIV>

[Za]

Actually, I'd rather they upped the healed amount by 50% and call it done.

[DantesInfer]

You know that would be a very good tradeoff IMHO.

[El Chupacabr]

I disagree simply because this is the wrong spell to take the damage from.  It's the 50 spell but is now our least damaging spell.  I'd rather take the adjustment on the skinrot line if we need to lose some damage (deathrot is actually our highest damage spell single target).

[Seregfe]

<font size="2"> It''s not ok, fanboy, .... there ist NO need for it ... NO NEED FOR NERFING LICH ... as said, the health cost is the same. The spell ist class-defining ... it is (as long as this nerf is not life) the most important and best spell .... I think THAT ist the reason ... oooh necros doing dmg, quick ... we must nerf the necros ...bah</font>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:I disagree simply because this is the wrong spell to take the damage from.  It's the 50 spell but is now our least damaging spell.  I'd rather take the adjustment on the skinrot line if we need to lose some damage (deathrot is actually our highest damage spell single target).<hr></blockquote>No, its not even a "damage spell" The damage component is a side effect. This augments all of our other spells, so reducing the damage on any one of them isn't the same thing.

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR>I disagree simply because this is the wrong spell to take the damage from.  It's the 50 spell but is now our least damaging spell.  I'd rather take the adjustment on the skinrot line if we need to lose some damage (deathrot is actually our highest damage spell single target).<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>No, its not even a "damage spell" The damage component is a side effect. This augments all of our other spells, so reducing the damage on any one of them isn't the same thing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Semantics, every level 50 spell is primarily a damage spell... you could call Ice Comet primarily a stun with a large damage component but in the end it's a damage spell, just like lich.  Blazing presence is a proc buff that goes off when a pet successfully attacks, it augments the pets damage but it's still a damage spell.  Frankly, the 1% regen of lich is not that big a deal, in the end that spells whole purpose for being is to lifetap.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Seregfear wrote:<font size="2"> It''s not ok, fanboy, .... there ist NO need for it ... NO NEED FOR NERFING LICH ... as said, the health cost is the same. The spell ist class-defining ... it is (as long as this nerf is not life) the most important and best spell .... I think THAT ist the reason ... oooh necros doing dmg, quick ... we must nerf the necros ...bah</font><hr></blockquote>You sound like a complete raving lunatic. Class defining... what a meaningless statement, but if you must use it... the spell is still very unique, so nothing has really changed there.Its roughly 100 less damage, the health cost is to balance the power gain. Hey IMHO, they could up the heal by 25-50% and I'd actually prefer it that way.<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seregfear wrote:<BR><FONT size=2><BR>It''s not ok, fanboy,</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please don't make personal attacks, this forum is generally very friendly. If you look at my previous posts, you'll see that name is very far from the truth <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR>I disagree simply because this is the wrong spell to take the damage from.  It's the 50 spell but is now our least damaging spell.  I'd rather take the adjustment on the skinrot line if we need to lose some damage (deathrot is actually our highest damage spell single target).<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>No, its not even a "damage spell" The damage component is a side effect. This augments all of our other spells, so reducing the damage on any one of them isn't the same thing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Semantics, every level 50 spell is primarily a damage spell... you could call Ice Comet primarily a stun with a large damage component but in the end it's a damage spell, just like lich.  Blazing presence is a proc buff that goes off when a pet successfully attacks, it augments the pets damage but it's still a damage spell.  Frankly, the 1% regen of lich is not that big a deal, in the end that spells whole purpose for being is to lifetap. <hr></blockquote>And it still is. You say that now, but if they'd left the damage alone and cut the regen in half people would still be squawkin about that.All in all the change isn't a big deal. I think this board might actuallt have gotten some dev attention if 90% of the whines weren't completely irrationald full of complete over exagerations and mis repretentations of the facts.SOE wanted to lower Necro dps by a small amount, and they have. We're a PET class, now if they cut all of our pets by 50% I'll complain about that!I'd still like to know if our scout (being a duel wielding NPC effectively) will benefit from the increased proc rate changes.

[legaleagle]

<P>Necros lived without the lich proc before the combat upgrade, we will live without it.  </P> <P>El Chuc.. it was a hp--->power spell for year and we didn't think it was useless, did we?  Why all of the sudden is it the end of the world if they reduce a 300 damage proc to a 150 damage proc ? </P> <P>Let me ask you this: If after the combat upgrade, they added a 150 dd proc to it instead of a 300 dd proc, would you have been happy as a pig in do-do?  I'm venturing to guess yes.     </P> <DIV>Pre-CU, Ice Comet was always used primarily as a damage spell.  Nobody ever said "I need to stun that mob, let me throw an IC on it."  Pre-CU, Lich was a hp-power spell.  We all said "isn't it cool to recoup power faster than everyone else?"  Nobody ever said "Lich is an awesome dd spell!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>legaleagle97 wrote:<P>Necros lived without the lich proc before the combat upgrade, we will live without it. </P> <P>El Chuc.. it was a hp--->power spell for year and we didn't think it was useless, did we? Why all of the sudden is it the end of the world if they reduce a 300 damage proc to a 150 damage proc ? </P> <P>Let me ask you this: If after the combat upgrade, they added a 150 dd proc to it instead of a 300 dd proc, would you have been happy as a pig in do-do? I'm venturing to guess yes. </P> <DIV>Pre-CU, Ice Comet was always used primarily as a damage spell. Nobody ever said "I need to stun that mob, let me throw an IC on it." Pre-CU, Lich was a hp-power spell. We all said "isn't it cool to recoup power faster than everyone else?" Nobody ever said "Lich is an awesome dd spell!"</DIV><hr></blockquote>True, but it's also like giving a kid the "great baseball glove" so that now he's playing with all the other kids on the field, and then a few weeks later taking it from him and giving him the "OK one", so that he's no longer good enough. Better to just give the lesser, than to give the greater, and then later replace with the lesser.And that's what they did to us with DPS. We could be wanted on a DPS measurement ALONE. Now we're going to be "they're OK, but bring in those other guys with as much utility, but more DPS first."

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:<blockquote><hr>legaleagle97 wrote:<P>Necros lived without the lich proc before the combat upgrade, we will live without it. </P> <P>El Chuc.. it was a hp--->power spell for year and we didn't think it was useless, did we? Why all of the sudden is it the end of the world if they reduce a 300 damage proc to a 150 damage proc ? </P> <P>Let me ask you this: If after the combat upgrade, they added a 150 dd proc to it instead of a 300 dd proc, would you have been happy as a pig in do-do? I'm venturing to guess yes. </P> <DIV>Pre-CU, Ice Comet was always used primarily as a damage spell. Nobody ever said "I need to stun that mob, let me throw an IC on it." Pre-CU, Lich was a hp-power spell. We all said "isn't it cool to recoup power faster than everyone else?" Nobody ever said "Lich is an awesome dd spell!"</DIV><hr></blockquote>True, but it's also like giving a kid the "great baseball glove" so that now he's playing with all the other kids on the field, and then a few weeks later taking it from him and giving him the "OK one", so that he's no longer good enough. Better to just give the lesser, than to give the greater, and then later replace with the lesser.And that's what they did to us with DPS. We could be wanted on a DPS measurement ALONE. Now we're going to be "they're OK, but bring in those other guys with as much utility, but more DPS first."<hr></blockquote>You act as if the wheel stops here. If conj are trueley overpowered (which they are a tad) I'm sure some number cruncher is divising a way to correct that.

[El Chupacabr]

Yes, I thought Lich was almost useless all the way to the combat upgrade and wasn't worth the cost. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  And no, I wouldn't have been happy if lich started out at 150 on test because that is too little damage for the level 50 spell.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I've put my numbers up from reviewing some raid parses and we lost an ice comet once a minute, that's still a big load of damage any way you slice it and the shave, imo, should not have come from lich.</DIV><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[keikomon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>El Chupacabras wrote:<BR>I disagree simply because this is the wrong spell to take the damage from.  It's the 50 spell but is now our least damaging spell.  I'd rather take the adjustment on the skinrot line if we need to lose some damage (deathrot is actually our highest damage spell single target).</P> <P>Frankly, the 1% regen of lich is not that big a deal, in the end that spells whole purpose for being is to lifetap.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>Well said El..You couldn't of said it any better.. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Kikko</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00> Kithicor </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Necro</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by keikomon on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

[Nainitsuj]

<P>I highly doubt the conj will get a nerf.  We've been with little to no utility since launch while the conj has massive utility on top of our DPS.  What makes you think yet another nerf to necro is going to eventually bring on a nerf to conj? </P> <P>The devs don't think like normal people.  Never assume the devs are like us.</P>

[legaleagle]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR>Yes, I thought Lich was almost useless all the way to the combat upgrade and wasn't worth the cost. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Heh.. well I guess that settles that.  Anyway, I always thought our class defining spell was the lifetap.  Simple difference of opinion.  If they cut that damage in half, I'd prolly feel the way you feel about Lich.  I just haven't had the spell long enough to really grow that attached to it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I'll leave out the obligatory "when you leave, can I have your stuff?" post :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote: <P>I highly doubt the conj will get a nerf.  We've been with little to no utility since launch while the conj has massive utility on top of our DPS.  What makes you think yet another nerf to necro is going to eventually bring on a nerf to conj? </P> <P>The devs don't think like normal people.  Never assume the devs are like us.</P> <hr></blockquote>hehe you're funny. I've met several of the devs. The eat, sleep, and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] just like the rest of us. They aren't super human or sub human. They're just plain old ordinary human.I never said a Necro nerf would lead to a conj nerf. I said that IF the numbers didn't balance that someone from the balance team would act accordingly. Necros and conjs certainly should be on par with one another. But someone with "Grass is greener" Syndrome isn't the best person to judge balance, so don't expect that every post in the necro thread is an accurate depiction of the way things are.

[legaleagle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Eriol wrote:<BR><BR>True, but it's also like giving a kid the "great baseball glove" so that now he's playing with all the other kids on the field, and then a few weeks later taking it from him and giving him the "OK one", so that he's no longer good enough. Better to just give the lesser, than to give the greater, and then later replace with the lesser.<BR> <HR> <P> </P> <P>I agree 100%, but I don't expect the devs to get everything right the very first time.  It may sting (and stink) at the outset, but you have to expect corrections. </P> <P>Also using your analogy, its not the tools (spells), its the player's abilities that really makes a toon useful or not.   Except for chanters... they really $%#I.  :smileyvery-happy:</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Za]

Hehe be nice Lega, El Chupacabras's a nice dude. Usually has very reasonable and rational and well informed posts.In fact even in this thread, we may not agree, but I respect his views.

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR>Yes, I thought Lich was almost useless all the way to the combat upgrade and wasn't worth the cost. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's interesting that you said the rot line is our biggest dps contributor. Looking at my parses, it's down around #4 for typical 1-min epic fights. I must be using the fast Lich proccers (fear, snare, coil) much more than you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously it's time to change the tactics a bit. With this change, the Rot line is much better bang for the buck than the pure Lich proccers, as long as the mob stays up for a few secs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by XBrit on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<div></div><div></div> <div>Deathrot's the highest damage, lifetap is second and skinrot's third (of course, current lich is number 1).  Gotta almost chaincast deathrot to see those results but due to those five tics in four seconds coupled with that fast recast this spell is #1 (500ish damage every five seconds is greater than 1,000 damage every 12 seconds). Edit:  Err... 613 every 5 seconds (126 dps) vs. 1,000 every 11 seconds (94ish dps)... why did I add that extra second to siphon?  Must be losing it.</div><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>

[SirFreakus]

<DIV>I knew it wouldn't last forever.  I was outparsing everyone I ever grouped with... and that was without the damage from the dumbfire pets. (other than the initial lich proc)  I was hoping that the actual hit we would take to Lich wouldn't have been as drastic as it appears to be, but I can live with the change. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would have rather preferred that they nerfed the Scout pet a bit and fixed the mage pet. (casting times) In current form I have to micromanage my Scout pet a bit too much... have it at Master 1 and he pulls agro off even good tanks. (not always, but enough to be very annoying)  So in all honesty, I had hoped if (when) we were on the nerfing schedule that it would be the scout pet that would receive a bit of dps reduction. (maybe 1/4th off the big hitters like Shade Strike... think that's the big one if I remember correctly)</DIV>

[armus5]

<P>I'll start by saying you're parser isn't working very well. I average 160+ dps on my assin pet and total dps is usually 350+. It's not unuasual to hit 500-540 dps total. I have done 680 on raids against Drayek. Now be that as it may, cutting lich will do more than just shorten our dps. How many folks cast snare just to have it fire lich and proc for 390 in 1 sec? It has no damage other than the lich proc. And I'm sorry but the 140 dmg of death rot is silly, but add  the lich proc and it's worth the 2 sec cast time - if you have nothing else up. This is a major issue and SOE has got to know we will hate it. The question is, how much complaining will it take to make them not do it. Only with a united voice against the nerf can we have a hope to stop them.</P> <P>Do I think it will? no. There are far too many wiz's and warlocks screaming we're too powerful just because they can't play their class well enough to out do us. Though some do and repeatedly out dps me.</P> <P>Armus, lvl58 necro on Innothule</P>

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> armus550 wrote:<BR> <P>I'll start by saying you're parser isn't working very well. I average 160+ dps on my assin pet and total dps is usually 350+. It's not unuasual to hit 500-540 dps total. I have done 680 on raids against Drayek.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The parser was running continuously for 3 hours, including downtime. So that makes the average dps seem less. We also took a 15 min break somewhere in there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See the link I edited into the message for some numbers for single epic fights.</DIV>

[Scyros]

<DIV>Lich pre combat update was totaly worthless.  I even had master 1 back then and never used it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 57 I find it pretty hard to beleive that 382 dmg proc is overpowering.  Even if you spammed 1 sec cast spells non-stop thats 500-600 dps.  The power cost to do that is huge, and it doesn't really kill a mob that fast.  I've grped with Assassins that can hit 900+ dps,  Wiz/Warlok in the same range.  Like I said in another post, I do think 382 is high for a lvl 50 and it should be adjusted.  But then again, how many lvl 50's have master 1.  The smart fix here(and yes a fix is needed) would have been to make it scale up as you lvl, and remove the lich proc from our AE and maybe from our EBAE.  Because at 50 this spell was insain, but at 57 it seems pretty in line.</DIV>

[cfteagu]

<P>Xbrit, can you do me a favor?   Can you parse Lich during soloing sets of down-arrow mobs (non-heroic) mobs?</P> <P>During solo of these mobs, which are very short fights, I proc lich about 3 times on the down-down-arrows, and about 3-5 times on the single-down arrows.  My lich damage is 293, so that means my non-pet damage is about 850 from 3 lichs, plus about 3 ticks of Death Coil (about 180) and all 4 ticks of the pblast line spell (4x ~70 = 300ish), plus one siphon life for about 700.</P> <P>So of my 2k spell damage, lich is 40-45 pecent.  Nerfing it by 50 means killing my spell damage by 20+ percent.</P> <P>I haven't been including the pet damage above, mostly because I often use the tank pet when there are a mix of kos heroics and non-heroics.   Having the scout pet out when a heroic aggros means I have to run and FD, which means zero dps until I get reset and hunting again.</P> <P>I guess I'd like to know WHY lich was considered as needing to be nerfed.  For short fights, like the solo battles I describe above, it let us be nukers.  (imagine that, a mage class that can nuke?)   What did necros do that needed to make us all unhappy?</P> <P>If the problem is root/lich, then just make root not proc lich.... sheesh</P>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>cfteague2 wrote:<P>Xbrit, can you do me a favor?   Can you parse Lich during soloing sets of down-arrow mobs (non-heroic) mobs?</P> <P>During solo of these mobs, which are very short fights, I proc lich about 3 times on the down-down-arrows, and about 3-5 times on the single-down arrows.  My lich damage is 293, so that means my non-pet damage is about 850 from 3 lichs, plus about 3 ticks of Death Coil (about 180) and all 4 ticks of the pblast line spell (4x ~70 = 300ish), plus one siphon life for about 700.</P> <P>So of my 2k spell damage, lich is 40-45 pecent.  Nerfing it by 50 means killing my spell damage by 20+ percent.</P> <P>I haven't been including the pet damage above, mostly because I often use the tank pet when there are a mix of kos heroics and non-heroics.   Having the scout pet out when a heroic aggros means I have to run and FD, which means zero dps until I get reset and hunting again.</P> <P>I guess I'd like to know WHY lich was considered as needing to be nerfed.  For short fights, like the solo battles I describe above, it let us be nukers.  (imagine that, a mage class that can nuke?)   What did necros do that needed to make us all unhappy?</P> <P>If the problem is root/lich, then just make root not proc lich.... sheesh</P> <hr></blockquote>We're a mage derivitive, but not all mage classes nuke! Illusionists... non nukers... summoners... non nukers!We're not all unhappy. Some of you need to grow up and spit out the thumbs.Yeah I can tell you for fact, With lich as it is, I don't bother using pets on down arrow mobs or groups. Through the mid 50s you can kill entire solo groups of mobs with a few AoE liched casts. GREAT fun... but I'm not going to lie through my teeth and say that's fair or balanced.Even with lich toned down, I'll easily still solo anything I can solo now... I may just have to do more than cast 1 spell over and over.

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cfteague2 wrote:<BR> <P>Xbrit, can you do me a favor?   Can you parse Lich during soloing sets of down-arrow mobs (non-heroic) mobs?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My necro dinged 60 this morning, so probably not going to be doing much of that kind of fighting any more. From your description, your casting tactics for those fights are different from mine, so I'd not get the result you're describing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could always get EQ Companion and do the offline parsing for yourself (combatstats isnt the best tool for detailed fight analysis). </DIV>

[Skratttt]

<P>Well my friends i hope you are right and this is not a majour nerf to you guys..i play with a neccy friend and seing drastic dps loss would suck</P> <P>Scyros im really interested to contact your Assassin friend to see how on earth he hits 900 dps on sustained basis(gray solo mobs?? or one fight ever 5 minutes??)....u sure it wasent a ranger??</P> <P>I would like to meet him and so would like the entire Assassin comunity and the developers so he can share whats his trick to such amazing sustained dps....  </P>

[Nibbl]

<P>Its a nerf, simple as that.... SoE stated their internal parses for the LU13 patch showed everything all right for the dps tiers...  If they screwed that up, then they should have increased the other classes dps, our dps was fine, the others were to low.  If the dps tiers are off its not my fault, its SoEs...</P> <P>Dont understand why people are ok with this, I hate the bait and switch crap.</P> <P>First toon I created in Nov 04 was a necro, it was so damm broke I shelved it for months.  SoE owes us big time, BIG TIME</P> <P>You will never convince  me 10-15% is ok, sorry... </P> <P>I'll take my necro as advertised you can have the 10% less...</P>

[Scyros]

<DIV>We have a lvl 60 Assassin in our guild as well as some mid 50's and they are in the top 3 on just about every raid.  I run a parser on all raids and our assassins have np hitting anywhere from 600-900 dps.  I am not really looking at it from a solo persepctive since I mostly raid and grp.  I'm not saying Lich is working great, don't get me wrong.  But this is not the problem.  As someone pointed out, at half dmg we will still be doing insaine dmg in AE.  So make the AE not proc lich.   If it's root parking then make root not proc lich.  But don't nerf a great spell.  Yes I have root parked before and IMO it's not very efficient.  Sure I can kill heroics previded they are non-casting, single pull, non-social, low health mobs.  So can wizzy and warlocks.  So can alot of classes.  I am not whining as some put it.  I'm just sick of the way SoE doesn't fix the problem.  And I'm sure the problem is not how fast we can kill solo mobs.  Lets be honest here.  It's root parking and AE dmg.  Thats pretty obvious when you look at the other changes.  So SoE figures just nerf lich and all is well.  Instead of nerfing those spells that, in conjunction with lich cause a problem.  And if the numbers posted here of 15% or so dps nerf are right, is that really going make necro's less overpowered.  I doubt it.  But I also doubt those numbers as well.  But since I havn't parsed if a few days I'll go with them.  So 15% is the difference between overpowered and blaanced necro's. hmm well since I have never gone below 70% power since DoF and if I play right there is no risk of death, I think it's safe to say I'll still be able to kill stuff just fine.  But then you have to ask, why make the change then if it's intended result is not going to happen.  Anyway it's late and I'm sure I'm not changing anyone's mind anyway.  Let alone SoEs.</DIV>

[schrammy]

<P>xbrit you always been a decent contributor to these boards so i dont want to offend you. But if that parse of you is the best what you can get out of lich; you're doing something very wrong.</P> <P>After that you admit there was downtime and 15 minute breaks.</P> <P>please don't calculate dpSecond with 15 minute breaks in them</P>

[Seregfe]

<div></div><div></div>The point is you MUST cry every single time SOE want to nerf something. Because they nerver got it right and they never listen to players. Ok, not to the right players. There is no need for nerfing ... balancing, yes ... but cutting lich to 50% or so IS a nerf and not balancing. The problem is, the so-called game designer dont have the feeling for what i call "the right ballancing" and that ist well known. It's the "binary problem". They can't do anything else then 0 or 1. They swaped warlock an wizzard, nearly. So if they touch the necros, again, i have a strong feeling off axe and bloodshed in my mind. Well, it's not a problem to play with less dps but i HATE every nerf and hate ist even more if it's a necro nerf. I've seen many wizzards soloing +++ mobs VERY easily and fast. So if THEY cry necros outdmg us, they're noobs that can't play. In a long run (>1min) conjurer and necros SHOULD outdmg every- and anything but no normal fight would take more then 30 sek. So wizzards and warlocks are superior with they're burst dmg. Ok, named npc fights are some sek. longer .. time for swarm pets&dot but lich IS the only way for a little bit more burst dmg, in quick fights. I (speeking as necro) dont want extrem st dmg(burst) or very high group dmg(mainly burst). If so, i have to play wizzard or warlock but I WANT to be a dd and so i hate every nerf to this.  To have a high dps you have to think while casting, where you place the stupid  swarm pet or the dot's. It's not only casting nuke after nuke, like wizzard  .... <p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by Seregfear on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:09 AM</span>

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nainitsuj wrote:<BR> <P>I highly doubt the conj will get a nerf.  We've been with little to no utility since launch while the conj has massive utility on top of our DPS.  What makes you think yet another nerf to necro is going to eventually bring on a nerf to conj? </P> <P>The devs don't think like normal people.  Never assume the devs are like us.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>hehe you're funny. I've met several of the devs. The eat, sleep, and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] just like the rest of us. They aren't super human or sub human. They're just plain old ordinary human.<BR><BR>I never said a Necro nerf would lead to a conj nerf. I said that IF the numbers didn't balance that someone from the balance team would act accordingly. Necros and conjs certainly should be on par with one another. But someone with "Grass is greener" Syndrome isn't the best person to judge balance, so don't expect that every post in the necro thread is an accurate depiction of the way things are.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Every life form eats, sleeps and reproduces.  That doesn't mean every life form is capable of logical thinking or comprehension.  That's where the devs come in.</P> <P>And why would they act accordingly?  They havn't yet.  It's almost been a year since the game launched.</P>

[iria]

<DIV>Is it just me or does it seem strange that every time SOE comes out with a nerf for our class there are two or three "supposedly independent" necros that come out with "statements and parsers" that show why we should have been nerfed all along.   I see this everytime.  It seems a bit strange to me really.   I don't think I have ever been a part of any other community where you would see the supposed leaders ( ie regular contributors ) to your society regularly think that they and those like them should have it worse than they do.   I don't know what to think of it.   I don't know if your just SOE appoligists, somehow work or know SOE devs, artificial necros just posing, or just well not very smart.   ( as you can see I am not going to revert to name calling ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hear some of you talk about how we shouldn't be a high dps class.  We should be a pet class.  These are the same people that thought it was a good idea when sony nerfed our tank pets mitigation.   You come out here and spit out these numbers about how "overpowered" our class is.   What I mean is do you you have any clue what the other classes do in dps?   We certainly aren't number 1, lol.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did you ever think about the fact that most fights don't last 60 to 90 seconds or even 2 minutes?   Most fights are over in about 10 seconds.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you ever solo?   I am like one of the others who posted.  I have the master 1 tank pet with the master 2 defensive buff.   I solo quite a bit.   Did you ever think about running your fancy parser when using the tank pet and depending on the "NECROS" dps?   lol no you didn't.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>==================</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, all that aside because I am sure you'll just say something like "well you need to change your play style".   bla bla, I am a "pet class" as you mentioned and by the way that means I like my "PET" to tank.   Well now that my dps gets nerfed hard, it's gonna take me a year kill a mob using the tank pet.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is this.   This forum is supposed to be FOR necros.   There are a few of you that post here non stop and there are many of us that come here looking for info and post occasionally.   We may or may not be 100 percent up to date on all the info going on, but do you realize that this is OUR VOICE!    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This forum is supposed to represent the NECROS.   If you constantly come to this forum asking for more and more nerfs and talking about how we are overpowered and we sure are glad SOE nerfed us because we hated to be 5th on the dps list instead of 10th, well...   Guess what.     Developers and those who effect change will listen.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you think the Wizards, Warlocks and Conjurers are on thier forum asking to be nerfed?   LOL NO.   ha.   But for some reason you same people keep coming back here time and again asking for just that.   <BR><BR>Thanks for representing your community so well guys.   Nobody elected you leaders but did you ever think that since you continually post that people in SOE might listen to what you say?    If you continually argue for our class to be weaker, well.. guess what?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks, we appreciate it so much, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nosewar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seregfear wrote:<BR> The point is you MUST cry every single time SOE want to nerf something. Because they nerver got it right and they never listen to players. Ok, not to the right players. There is no need for nerfing ... balancing, yes ... but cutting lich to 50% or so IS a nerf and not balancing.<BR><BR> <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>SOE does a great job of listening to players. The problem is that there are so many spoiled rotten whining babies in the player base who will never be happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Case in point on the listening part.  I and about 2 other people on the Splitpaw forum have been posting for 45 days after the first LU13 harclave nerf that harclave still needs more nerfing to stop PLing and farming.  LU16 is now going to solve the harclave problem once and for all with a super nerf.  Harclave will only be accessible once per level after Nov 9th.  So the devs listened to our valid complaints, and guess what now everybody is whining.</DIV>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Nibblar wrote:<P>Its a nerf, simple as that.... SoE stated their internal parses for the LU13 patch showed everything all right for the dps tiers...  If they screwed that up, then they should have increased the other classes dps, our dps was fine, the others were to low.  If the dps tiers are off its not my fault, its SoEs...</P> <P>Dont understand why people are ok with this, I hate the bait and switch crap.</P> <P>First toon I created in Nov 04 was a necro, it was so damm broke I shelved it for months.  SoE owes us big time, BIG TIME</P> <P>You will never convince  me 10-15% is ok, sorry... </P> <P>I'll take my necro as advertised you can have the 10% less...</P> <hr></blockquote>1. I can't convince you that Santa is fake either, so I'll let you continue to dream on.2. Yes, you'll take it. Like it or not. This is an MMO, if you want to close your eyes and ignore the fact that all MMOs change, again, say hi to Santa for me.3. I've always posted, Necros were a little high with burst DPS. We're a long duration DPS class that could pretty easily keep close with a like equipt burst class... without even including 2 of our primary damage lines!Grow up. Balance is NOT always about giving everyone else a boost. You can't understand that then sorry, that is your fault.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote:<P>xbrit you always been a decent contributor to these boards so i dont want to offend you. But if that parse of you is the best what you can get out of lich; you're doing something very wrong.</P> <P>After that you admit there was downtime and 15 minute breaks.</P> <P>please don't calculate dpSecond with 15 minute breaks in them</P> <hr></blockquote>In EQ2 there is no such thing as a 15 minute downtime. Why are you reaching for something to "prove" your theory that this "nerf" is worse than it is?The only reason to take a 15 minute downtime is becasue you want to or the entire group lacksany ability to regain health and power... which is stupid to use for any practical example.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nainitsuj wrote:<BR> <P>I highly doubt the conj will get a nerf.  We've been with little to no utility since launch while the conj has massive utility on top of our DPS.  What makes you think yet another nerf to necro is going to eventually bring on a nerf to conj? </P> <P>The devs don't think like normal people.  Never assume the devs are like us.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>hehe you're funny. I've met several of the devs. The eat, sleep, and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] just like the rest of us. They aren't super human or sub human. They're just plain old ordinary human.<BR><BR>I never said a Necro nerf would lead to a conj nerf. I said that IF the numbers didn't balance that someone from the balance team would act accordingly. Necros and conjs certainly should be on par with one another. But someone with "Grass is greener" Syndrome isn't the best person to judge balance, so don't expect that every post in the necro thread is an accurate depiction of the way things are.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Every life form eats, sleeps and reproduces.  That doesn't mean every life form is capable of logical thinking or comprehension.  That's where the devs come in.</P> <P>And why would they act accordingly?  They havn't yet.  It's almost been a year since the game launched.</P> <hr></blockquote>Hmm, you're right... you probably do all those things to, and I'm really starting to see what you mean.Do us all a favor... quit. Stop playing EQ and just go design the perfect game for us. Its so obvious that your super-human intellect and knowledge should produce a game that has 0 defects, is 100% balanced, and has a 100% satisfied player base, at release.Please cancel your account today and begin working on this masterpiece, I'm sure I speak for every MMO player alive when I say that we can't wait to see what you can do! And for someone of your obvious superiority, I expect to see it hit stores sometime around January. I assume someone of your skill won't even need a public Beta, maybe you can get some of your like minded superior life form friends from this thread to do a mind meld and test everything. I'm sure that should only take a day or two tops, right.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>iriani wrote:<DIV>Is it just me or does it seem strange that every time SOE comes out with a nerf for our class there are two or three "supposedly independent" necros that come out with "statements and parsers" that show why we should have been nerfed all along.   I see this everytime.  It seems a bit strange to me really.   I don't think I have ever been a part of any other community where you would see the supposed leaders ( ie regular contributors ) to your society regularly think that they and those like them should have it worse than they do.   I don't know what to think of it.   I don't know if your just SOE appoligists, somehow work or know SOE devs, artificial necros just posing, or just well not very smart.   ( as you can see I am not going to revert to name calling ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hear some of you talk about how we shouldn't be a high dps class.  We should be a pet class.  These are the same people that thought it was a good idea when sony nerfed our tank pets mitigation.   You come out here and spit out these numbers about how "overpowered" our class is.   What I mean is do you you have any clue what the other classes do in dps?   We certainly aren't number 1, lol.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did you ever think about the fact that most fights don't last 60 to 90 seconds or even 2 minutes?   Most fights are over in about 10 seconds.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you ever solo?   I am like one of the others who posted.  I have the master 1 tank pet with the master 2 defensive buff.   I solo quite a bit.   Did you ever think about running your fancy parser when using the tank pet and depending on the "NECROS" dps?   lol no you didn't.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>==================</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, all that aside because I am sure you'll just say something like "well you need to change your play style".   bla bla, I am a "pet class" as you mentioned and by the way that means I like my "PET" to tank.   Well now that my dps gets nerfed hard, it's gonna take me a year kill a mob using the tank pet.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is this.   This forum is supposed to be FOR necros.   There are a few of you that post here non stop and there are many of us that come here looking for info and post occasionally.   We may or may not be 100 percent up to date on all the info going on, but do you realize that this is OUR VOICE!    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This forum is supposed to represent the NECROS.   If you constantly come to this forum asking for more and more nerfs and talking about how we are overpowered and we sure are glad SOE nerfed us because we hated to be 5th on the dps list instead of 10th, well...   Guess what.     Developers and those who effect change will listen.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you think the Wizards, Warlocks and Conjurers are on thier forum asking to be nerfed?   LOL NO.   ha.   But for some reason you same people keep coming back here time and again asking for just that.   <BR><BR>Thanks for representing your community so well guys.   Nobody elected you leaders but did you ever think that since you continually post that people in SOE might listen to what you say?    If you continually argue for our class to be weaker, well.. guess what?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks, we appreciate it so much, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>This is NOT about asking for nerfs. Its about looking at things and voicing them in an accurate and rational way.90% of these posts are from lyers or people that are extremely over exagerating the effects this will have on them just for the sake of whining. This just causes grief for the entire thread becasue if in fact this was a critical change, you wouldn't be able to hear the factual information over all the BS whining and ranting. This servers NO ONE!Its also not about proving that we "should" have been nerfed all along. Its trying to understand what the point of the change is... I played an Inq main back when they removed the perma stifle effect we had... 99% of the inqs HATED that change. But DAM, it was neccessary. If you can't see past your own class to see there's more to the game than you getting your jollies off, then hey... even the KKK has a right to voice an opinion, doesn't mean it should be listened to though.Your soloing example... MOOT... and that's part of the problem. If you think that you should have been able to use a low DPS pet and still nuke like a wizard, well you were wrong all along. Part of our class design is the flexibility of being able to have a pet tank and loose the DPS, or use the DPS pets and use our utility to deal with the agro and damage. Seems you got entirely used to having your cake and eating it to... Balance isn't about you having fun. Its about you having fun within the parameters set by the people that make up the game. If thats not fun, then you have every right to quit, but thats the way it is no matter where you go or what you do. Recomendation. If the SOE devs don't think they way you do, find a set of Devs that do, becasue at least then they'll make decisions you usually agree with.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Nosewarts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seregfear wrote:<BR> The point is you MUST cry every single time SOE want to nerf something. Because they nerver got it right and they never listen to players. Ok, not to the right players. There is no need for nerfing ... balancing, yes ... but cutting lich to 50% or so IS a nerf and not balancing.<BR><BR> <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>SOE does a great job of listening to players. The problem is that there are so many spoiled rotten whining babies in the player base who will never be happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Case in point on the listening part.  I and about 2 other people on the Splitpaw forum have been posting for 45 days after the first LU13 harclave nerf that harclave still needs more nerfing to stop PLing and farming.  LU16 is now going to solve the harclave problem once and for all with a super nerf.  Harclave will only be accessible once per level after Nov 9th.  So the devs listened to our valid complaints, and guess what now everybody is whining.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Another good example of how we should all be careful what we wish for,From day 1, I though Harclave was a bad thing. Not becasue it was a bad idea, but becasue it was sooo great!My kids love candy. My 10 year old likes it so much he's vomiting his poor little head off becasue he loves it so much.MG said it best, but most people heard him about as well as my son heard me telling him to stop eating Kit-Kats. Harclave was a great idea. It was super fun and gave us a chance to do something different and new. But it also became addictive in a way. It became the "way" to do things. It became a defacto method of leveling quickly, which ultimately ruins the game, just like too much candy ruins your appetite. So, what does SoE do about it? Well, they can continue to let people abuse it... Let it continue to stay broken just becasue some people don't realize how bad it really is yet, and may never. Or, they can ration it like any good parent. Now, I know, all you balding middle aged men don't need parenting... Sure you do. Because if left to your own devices some of you would continue to abuse the zone to the extent that they (SOE) would have to make it less fun for everyone, (which sucks, becasue all new players deserve have to experience Harclaves at least once!) or let you continue to get sick and ultimately blame the game becasue you're bored with doing the same thing over and over.I personally wish Harclaves Scaled all the way to 60. Its still a fun place to visit, but I certainly don't think anyone should live there, or even think that its the best place to live!

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote:<BR> <P>Its a nerf, simple as that.... SoE stated their internal parses for the LU13 patch showed everything all right for the dps tiers...  If they screwed that up, then they should have increased the other classes dps, our dps was fine, the others were to low.  If the dps tiers are off its not my fault, its SoEs...</P> <P>Dont understand why people are ok with this, I hate the bait and switch crap.</P> <P>First toon I created in Nov 04 was a necro, it was so damm broke I shelved it for months.  SoE owes us big time, BIG TIME</P> <P>You will never convince  me 10-15% is ok, sorry...</P> <P>I'll take my necro as advertised you can have the 10% less...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>1. I can't convince you that Santa is fake either, so I'll let you continue to dream on.<BR>2. Yes, you'll take it. Like it or not. This is an MMO, if you want to close your eyes and ignore the fact that all MMOs change, again, say hi to Santa for me.<BR>3. I've always posted, Necros were a little high with burst DPS. We're a long duration DPS class that could pretty easily keep close with a like equipt burst class... without even including 2 of our primary damage lines!<BR><BR>Grow up. Balance is NOT always about giving everyone else a boost. You can't understand that then sorry, that is your fault.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=2>1.  First you trust SoE lol, this change was driven by others complaining... balance?  im sure they did extensive internal testing prior to making this change.. lol</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>2.  No I dont have to take it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I will complain, thats what customers do we they get cheated <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>3.  Not all MMOs have major class and game mechanics "do overs" like eq2 has done.  Most MMOs have minor adjustments and tweaks that build up over years. MMOs that have major game changes in less then 10 months, very few.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>4.  if you havnt noticed SoE still doenst have class guides on their website, says "coming soon" since 2004.  why is that?  simple fact this game wasnt ready for the streets and still isnt, SoE doesnt know what they want the classes to be, still.  What are the rulesets for each class?  I see a long future of balance adjustments, and I dont mean minor tweaks either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>5.  Santa isnt real?  who puts the junk in my stocking every year?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>give an inch they take a mile!  if this was unbalanced it should have been adjusted on test server.  SoE made a statement that everything looked good during their revamp testing (pre LU13).  Once this hit test they should have adjusted it there if it was unbalanced, changing it on live two month later is bs.  We, as customers, should expect more from a professional software company.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>BTW, going to run these numbers soloing, because I think it will be greater then 10-12% dps reduction for those situations</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 AM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>You have two 4s Nibblar. :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[jeffdo]

I keep seeing these posts about how we out dps every class, and my question is are you referring to raids only? I don't see this happening in group situations, especially when it's multiple group mobs. Our ae's don't seem to compare to conjurers or warlocks, and obviously we're no where near the 4k nukes the wizards can throw out. My experience has been that by the time I've thrown out a couple of spells, the mobs are dead. Which means I'm not getting to the point where I've hit a mob 6 times and cast the swarm pets. I throw a rot, deathdot and siphon and the mob is dead. So my thought here is if these classes are whining because they want to be the masters of sustained and burst damage, they need to give it a rest. Necs only have this spell available to them the last 10 levels of char life. And I thought we've always been the masters of sustained damage. Prior to the combat redo, if the group was about out we still power coming in from draining and healing pets. Also, I remember from before the combat nerf, it seemed our nukes were doing way more damage without lich, weren't they? <div></div>

[vorek]

<P>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[Nibbl]

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN>nm</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 AM</span>

[vorek]

<P>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>These threads are going to get locked if you guys don't lay off a bit. :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

[nhdjoseywales]

it might not be fair to compare ae damage vs warlocks and wizards atm since at least one of those classes has a bug that allows continued and apparently multiplying spell procs to occur when they ae. i dont have the details on exactly what has to happen to make it occur but ive seen parses where one guy i play with did like 170k damage on 1 sub 1 minute ae fight and i only did 21k or so. mind you i was still in the top 5 on the raid, but the comparison between us and true nukers might not be at all valid atm.

[sithlord]

I have to agree with the previous post. Very Sad and Pathetic. Epxplain why us Necro's should not be upset. And use words bigger than two syllables.

[Nosewar]

Give necros teh plate armor!!

[xxArcane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> legaleagle97 wrote:<BR> <P>Necros lived without the lich proc before the combat upgrade, we will live without it.  </P> <P>El Chuc.. it was a hp--->power spell for year and we didn't think it was useless, did we?  Why all of the sudden is it the end of the world if they reduce a 300 damage proc to a 150 damage proc ? </P> <P>Let me ask you this: If after the combat upgrade, they added a 150 dd proc to it instead of a 300 dd proc, would you have been happy as a pig in do-do?  I'm venturing to guess yes.     </P> <DIV>Pre-CU, Ice Comet was always used primarily as a damage spell.  Nobody ever said "I need to stun that mob, let me throw an IC on it."  Pre-CU, Lich was a hp-power spell.  We all said "isn't it cool to recoup power faster than everyone else?"  Nobody ever said "Lich is an awesome dd spell!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, you are completely missing the point. I, for one, would not have been happy with a 150 damage proc at adept 3. Why? Well because we would not be balanced with the rest of the DPS classes. It's not a matter of we had something good and they are taking it away, it's a matter of balance. If they cut 10% DPS from all the other DPS classes then fine, they can take 10% off necro DPS. But to Nerf Necros like that and not do the same thing to the other classes is essentialy putting us in the back seat. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And that 10% number is made up BS anyway! While soloing Lich can make up to 30-40% of our damage...especialy on groups of mobs where  AE can be used.</DIV><p>Message Edited by xxArcanexx on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 PM</span>

[cfteagu]

<P>Thanks Xbrit for the response.</P> <P>As a low 50s (51) necro, who solos about 95 percent of the time, for my playstyle, Lich is the major component of my DPS.  Siphon life is probably the next biggest part, then pet, then the rest of my spells.  (Note: Im talking solo vs down and double-down arrow mobs; they die too fast for dots to really add up, and talking tank pet)</P> <P>At 60, i do expect that the lich proc will be less, comparatively, to my other spells.  I'd guess that many of the people who are disagreeing with your numbers are more like me, in that they tend to fight a lot of weaker mobs when solo, and against these weak mobs, the ability to spam 3 quick spells and add almost 1k damage was a very nice change after 49 levels of stacking dots and grinding down mobs.</P> <P>I can't say about balance.  The fact is, i simply solo too much to have a good idea of where necros actually fit in the damage scheme.  What I can say, was that at 49, my dps felt weak.  I didn't have any "burn down" power.  Then I got lich, and I could nuke, which was much better suited to hunting weak mobs.  And I was happy.  Now if they cut lich in half, well I'll have to find a new way.  But whatever it is, it WILL be less fun...</P>

[Nibbl]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>SoE should have made adjustments to individual spells and just removed the lich proc altogether.  Seems this proc was just an easy way to add dps without really evaluating the spell lines.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Get rid of the lich proc and adjust all 50+ spells to compensate for the dps loss.</SPAN></P></DIV>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>SoE should have made adjustments to individual spells and just removed the lich proc altogether.  Seems this proc was just an easy way to add dps without really evaluating the spell lines.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Get rid of the lich proc and adjust all 50+ spells to compensate for the dps loss.</SPAN></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Why? That's the worst and laziest idea yet.<BR><BR>Why not get rid of all spells that aren't nukes and just put them on different times to control character DPS... Yeah that'll create diversity.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>How is evaluating and adjusting our other spells lines lazy compared to adding one spell for dps?  At first I was opposed to the lich change, but I see the light.  The more it is nerfed the better chance our other spells will get adjusted, always thought some of our dots were on the weak side.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[gr8scott]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR><BR>If you want coolness, have the whithering line start off doing like 10 damage the 1st tick, then 50 the second tick, then 100 the 3rd, 250 the forth 500 the 5th, and 1000 the 6th. Spread the tics over 30 seconds. Make the recast time 3 second or whatever.<BR><BR>This spell becomes very ill condusive to being used sololy for lich. IMHO, it also fits in with what Necros do.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sweet idea.  That spell would rock for tough solo encounters and it would be a big deterent to recasting prior to it running its course.</P> <P>GS<BR></P>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR>Ok, lazy isn't the word... unimaginative maybe...<BR><BR>The goal is to balance the diversity with function.<BR><BR>They can make lich a fun and useful tool without making it the only viable tool.<BR><BR>They can also boost our DoTs to be valuable without making them our only form of damage.<BR><BR>Personally, I think they could add a whole dimension to Necros be giving us DoTs that grow over time... <FONT color=#ff0000>like the old EQ1 Splirt spell. <BR></FONT><BR>If you want coolness, have the whithering line start off doing like 10 damage the 1st tick, then 50 the second tick, then 100 the 3rd, 250 the forth 500 the 5th, and 1000 the 6th. Spread the tics over 30 seconds. Make the recast time 3 second or whatever.<BR><BR>This spell becomes very ill condusive to being used sololy for lich. IMHO, it also fits in with what Necros do.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I do like that idea, would work good for the harder mobs plus keep aggro down as well.  at level 51 I see a few of my dots ticking off at 50-70 per tic, not to impressive, but then again our pet and dumbfires seem to make up for it big time.  I think we need a LITTLE more damage diversity, minor adjustments IMO.  Only use the darkness line for lich proc right now, thats it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Buggrit]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 PM</span>

[XBr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Troll much?</DIV>

[Named]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>the necro/conj dps needed to be nerfed in sonys so called vision wizzys/warlocks/assassins/rangers were T1 DPS<BR><BR>you guys were T2 DPS with dmg pets out <BR><BR>the fact was u guys were doing T1 DPS outdmging the  so called T1 DPS classes without any trouble<BR><BR> you guys were way to overpowered and knew it and you guys knew you were going to get nerfed back down abit<BR>yet u still complain when it was so obvious it was coming?<BR><BR><BR>ok yes i only have a summoner so i can't really comment to much on skills<BR><BR>but with this change it seems necros/conjs will be put were they were ment to be T2/3 DPS depending on which pet<BR><BR>if anyone can come up with a legit argument why you guys should be T1 DPS then i would love to hear it<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The big thing here is that if you're trying to look at us as t2 dps, then you think we would have better utility then t1 dps classes. We don't. Our utility is about on par with wizards and warlocks, therefore our dps should be on par with wizards and warlocks. That dps tree means nothing. It was a rough outline from MONTHS ago. Things change. Dps rankings change. We should be t1 dps until a) sorcerers lose their utility or b) our utility is upgraded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before you try to argue pets as utility, please realize that they have 0 mitigation vs even con + mobs. The actual necro tanks better than the pet. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing you may want to look at for raids... Sorcs can do  ALL of their damage from nuke range. Even if they can only put out 600 dps, on AE mobs ( and nearly every gx4 is ) we can probally only put out 300 dps because our pet is USELESS for damage.</DIV>

[Buggrit]

<div></div>so your necro tanks better than your pet itself mmm yeah nice try but theres no way ur ever going to get me to believe that your tank pets are awesome lvl 30 nec 30 warden and my 29 Warlock were trioing lvl 28^^^ giants with the pet tanking and warden easily healing ? so ur saying a lvl 30 nec could tank them instead of his/her pet? The big thing here is that if you're trying to look at us as t2 dps, then you think we would have better utility then t1 dps classes. We don't. Our utility is about on par with wizards and warlocks, therefore our dps should be on par with wizards and warlocks. That dps tree means nothing. It was a rough outline from MONTHS ago. Things change. Dps rankings change. We should be t1 dps until a) sorcerers lose their utility or b) our utility is upgraded. its clearly obvious the only reason u come out with this crap is because you know your overpowered and want to stay that way Sorc thing yeah they can do dps from distant a hell of alot of it is resisted? checked the Warlock line basically useless on raids until they turned 1 or 2 spells to poison over disease and i believe thats still only the AoEs they changed pets useless for DPS now theres the biggest load of **** i've ever read i could easily say the tree was just a rough outline Berserkers should be T1 DPS since supposdly there the worst tank mitigation wise /shrug and don't have very much group utility apart from 1-2 mitigation buffs that last like 30 secs and a few regens does that mean berserkers should be T1 DPS with you guys  or would that be completely unfair? and as you've said things change and you were happy because you came out top well things have changed again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Buggrit on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:24 PM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

Heh, a Foul 'ole Ron reference... are you here to bother us 'til we give you money so you'll go away? <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>T4 is alot different then T6 in terms of dps, class balance etc. When you hit 60 ( or atleast 50 ), start raiding or atleast grouping with a high level necro then you may understand my points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR> so your necro tanks better than your pet itself mmm yeah nice try but theres no way ur ever going to get me to believe that your tank pets are awesome lvl 30 nec 30 warden and my 29 Warlock were trioing lvl 28^^^ giants with the pet tanking and warden easily healing ? so ur saying a lvl 30 nec could tank them instead of his/her pet? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Level 60 ^^^ mobs hit my pet for about 2k damage. Blue cons hit it for 1600 normal melee hits. They hit me for about 1k. Yes, I tank better then my pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR> Sorc thing <BR>yeah they can do dps from distant a hell of alot of it is resisted? checked the Warlock line basically useless on raids until they turned 1 or 2 spells to poison over disease and i believe thats still only the AoEs they changed<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>What? You do realize that Necromancers get the same resists as you. Oh! Wait! you want a neat bit of trivia? The warlock Aspect line grants you +15ish disruption! That LOWERS YOUR RESISTS. Necromancers DONT get that. Warlocks get LESS resists then necros. BTW. Necros are pure disease aside from our level 35, 80ish dmg dot. So yeah, you have no real arguement here. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR> pets useless for DPS now theres the biggest load of **** i've ever read <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>IF you read what I stated, then you would realize that I'm actually right. Almost any ae mob will 1 hit our scout pet ( the damage one ). Therefore they are impractical to use on AE mobs. They do about half of our dps. Thats half of our damage that we can't do because the mob has an aoe. Sorcs are NOT restricted like this, they can do full damage on anything anywhere. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR> i could easily say the tree was just a rough outline Berserkers should be T1 DPS since supposdly there the worst tank mitigation wise /shrug and don't have very much group utility apart from 1-2 mitigation buffs that last like 30 secs and a few regens does that mean berserkers should be T1 DPS with you guys  or would that be completely unfair? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Maybe in theory you guys are the worst tank, however in the little world of reality, you are far from it. You ARE the highest damage tank class and we often use our zerker to tank raid mobs such as Urzyd the undying, Goliathan, and other varius 60+ raid mobs. </DIV> <DIV>Rampage + open wounds + berserk puts out silly dps ( consistant 1500 ++ on the gx2 groups in clefts ) every 3 minutes. Put a dirge in with your zerker, hit blade chime ( 300 dmg everytime  you hit ), do the above combo on 5-6 mobs, and grats on 3k dps. Yes, thats right. three thousand damage per second. I've seen it done. Multiple times.<BR></DIV>

[zenmo]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffcc00 size=2>i just wanted to make an appearance on this thread. By the time I reach lvl50, i won't know what i've missed </FONT></DIV>

[Buggrit]

all your points then boil down to 1 thing your going to be useless on raids? but if only 1 spell was not resisted much then whys lich nerf bother u so much ? i mean if all spells are resisted why would lich matter to you? <div></div>

[Mephli]

I'm glad people came here to defend the shafting of our class.....  YAY

[Buggrit]

<P>im not defending you and im not insulting you  some of my good friends play necros and they know there overpowered and atleast half of my necro friends are 55-60 in raiding guilds</P> <P>necros needed to be tuned down abit there still going to be good DPS just T2 were they belong</P> <P>imagine though what it was like for Berserkers went from T1 DPS pre Lu13 to like T4/5 lol</P> <P>the fact is you can argue the DPS tree was a rough outline but everyone does when there on top its not until they get tuned down they start complaining </P> <P>(on a side question anyone know a site of pets that lists there hp/dmg etc? lvl 18 summoner going necro would just like to see some pet info also would lifetap be a good lvl 20 master 2 choice or is swarm of rats better i can get one or other adept 3 np)</P>

[Hoom]

They're = They are "They know they're way overpowered." Their = pronoun (possessive) "It is their favorite spell." There = adverb (at or in that place) "I hear good things about Silent City, but I have not been there yet."

[Nosewar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR> <P>im not defending you and im not insulting you  some of my good friends play necros and they know there overpowered and atleast half of my necro friends are 55-60 in raiding guilds</P> <P>necros needed to be tuned down abit there still going to be good DPS just T2 were they belong</P> <P>imagine though what it was like for Berserkers went from T1 DPS pre Lu13 to like T4/5 lol</P> <P>the fact is you can argue the DPS tree was a rough outline but everyone does when there on top its not until they get tuned down they start complaining</P> <P>(on a side question anyone know a site of pets that lists there hp/dmg etc? lvl 18 summoner going necro would just like to see some pet info also would lifetap be a good lvl 20 master 2 choice or is swarm of rats better i can get one or other adept 3 np)</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Go back and read the archetype/class descriptions on the main EQ2 page.  Berzerkers are under the fighter/warrior archetype, therefore they are TANKS, first and foremost. That is, meatshields. You are supposed to be the rock protecting your group.  If you wanted to be more of a damage dealer you should have been a scout or mage class. Go learn your class!</DIV>

[Buggrit]

dude i know how to play my class if u look back i was the one arguing we were tank and not dps it was just a statement others complained the fact they should be top dps and not tank <div></div>