Pet Aggro

[SageGaspar]

Hey Necromancers, I am a Bruiser myself, but I group with Necromancers in random pickup groups often. I've been finding recently that when a Necromancer is a couple levels above me, they are able to pull most of a group off of me just attacking with their pet in a way that most mages do not typically. I had a few questions that I hoped you would answer, but before I ask, just let me reinforce that I am not calling for a nerf, not saying that Necro pet taunt is overpowered, and not saying that it would be a bad idea to just let the pet tank. 1. Is the Necromancer using a pet that has some sort of group attack or taunt effect, or are they simply sending their pet at each mob individually? Or is it something else that I'm missing? 2. Is there a way (another pet, aggro-reducing spells, etc) that a Necromancer can prevent their pet from stealing aggro? 3. In your experience, how easy is it for you to steal aggro from a tank? Is it heavily dependant on levels? I'm generally speaking in the 30-45 range, but I've heard a couple other tanks outside of that range and from different classes having the same sort of problem holding aggro. Thank you! <div></div>

[Eirgo]

<P>Im sure there are other necros that frequent these forums that will have a better informed response, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.</P> <P>I think it pretty much boils down to 3 things - Stance, Pet, and Level</P> <P>Like all mellee classes, we get to choose whether our pet is in an offensive or defensive stance.  The defensive stance is good for soloing, or in an unbalanced group where our pet is forced to tank.  This stance gives a bonus to the pets hate generation among other things like extra hps.  When in a group that has a tank, the necro should not use this stance in most situations. The offensive stance lets our pet do more dps and will generate less aggro.</P> <P>We also have 3 lines of pets - the tank, scout and mage.  In a balanced group, either the scout or mage pet in offensive stance is most desirable (imo).  This will provide the most dps for us, and hopefully keep our pets aggro down.</P> <P>Finally, character/pet level seems to have more effect now as far as hits and resists go and this could play a big factor if you are a few levels lower than the necro and the group is fighting high yellow or orange mobs.</P> <P>In the event you are grouped with a higher level necro, with a tank pet up and defensive stance on - I could see you having a problem maintaining aggro at times.  If this is the case, I would say you should recommend that the necro use a diff pet/stance combo.  Some necros like to use the tank pet with the def stance on in pick up groups because that way if their pet does get aggro it will have a higher survivability rate - where the other pets have few hps and when the pet dies the caster gets the pets aggro which leads to a dead necro.  So as long as the group is balanced and people arent afk all the time, the necro shouldnt mind going to a more group style pet, just takes a little trust.</P> <P>EDIT -  forgot to address your point #1.  The tank pet has an AE attack, that coupled with the bonus hate gain from a def stance could draw the adds to him, especially if the necro sent the pet in before you could establish initial aggro.</P> <P>Hope this helps a little,</P><p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class=date_text>09-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:49 AM</span>

[Laryagar]

<DIV>Necromancers have essentially three pets. The first is a pet that functions as a tank. Second, is our spellcasting pet that most refer to as our Warlock pet. Third is our assassin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> With the new combat update the pets use their special abilities at the same quality as the spell that summoned them. So, the adept III tank pet, that does have a group and single taunt, will be using those taunts as adept III taunts.  Only the tank pet seems to have actual taunts the others have spells or skills appropriate for an assassin or warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Usually in a group I use my Warlock or Assassin.  Solo or if in a group lacking a tank I will use my tank pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Laryagar</DIV>

[Urbanna]

Same advice as above for the most part. Generally I've never had the *pet* stealing agro from an already taunting tank. The pet can easily get the agro if he gets the initial attacks in AND has the defensive stance up, or if the tank is being lazy at taunting or not using very good agro management. Not to say that it's your fault, but I've noticed between different players of the same classes some HUGE discrepencies in agro management. So I suggest you make sure that your necro groupmate uses his DPS pets and offensive stance, and that he waits until you establish good agro before sending the pet in. <div></div>

[Nainitsuj]

With my adept 3 pets and adept 3 pet buffs, I'm finding I'm always stealing aggro from tanks.  Assassin pet in offense does it the best.  Usually it's because I'm using the adept 3 stuff and the tank is using App4 taunts.  Not much I can do except tell the pet to attack for 20 seconds then pull him back in for 10. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The best part is though, once the pet goes down, I'm usually next.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class=date_text>09-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[SageGaspar]

Thanks for all the responses! I would just like to add, just so perhaps we can help each other by sharing some information: <span><blockquote><hr>Urbannaja wrote:Generally I've never had the *pet* stealing agro from an already taunting tank. The pet can easily get the agro if he gets the initial attacks in AND has the defensive stance up, or if the tank is being lazy at taunting or not using very good agro management. Not to say that it's your fault, but I've noticed between different players of the same classes some HUGE discrepencies in agro management. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Since the combat upgrade, most tanks have had more problems holding aggro across the board to begin with, but some classes are traditionally exceptionally bad at group aggro. In particular, you're seeing a lot more Brawlers, as they've been recognized as the new "flavor of the month" tank class. The thing about Bruisers (and probably Monks, but I can't say for sure), is that they have only one weak AE attack, two mediocre taunts (single-target and encounter wide), no aggro increasing or reducing buffs to speak of, and a hate proc that works off of doing damage. In contrast, a Warrior would have better taunts than a Brawler, more group-wide aggro management tools, more group buffs (= aggro), and a reactive hate proc. Just to underline the difference in hate procs, every time a Warrior an gets hit, they have a chance at generating more hate. Every time a Brawler hits something, they have a chance at generating more hate. So Warriors will have a better time at group aggro, while Brawlers should be able to hold single-target aggro vastly better. This, in theory, should make a Brawler better at peeling something off you, but unless Rescue is up, nearly every Fighter is very poor at peeling mobs right now. And if you've managed to peel a whole group, fogeddaboudit. I'm not sure about Crusaders, but I think they have more AEs and also heals/wards/buffs that helps them manage aggro. <div></div>

[KBern]

<P>I had this problem when I am asked to put pull.</P> <P>I realized if I simply click off my rending frenzy buff, the tanks have no issue taking agro back from my pet.</P>

[Brickya]

<DIV>I want to point out a few things as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the above responses a key point was mentioned, spells cast by the pet are at the summoning level of the pet.  Almost every necro will get an Adept III pet as soon as possible.  Thus those nukes/taunts/styles are going to be very good.  If a tank only has app styles or adept 1 styles it will make it harder for the tank to get the aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In every group I have been in, all I have to do is forewarn them that I have an Adept III pet and I usually get a positive response.  The tanks in the group don't mind the pet and the healers help heal.  Guardians normally go to dual wield as well since that don't have to worry about taking a beating.  That means more dps to the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With out an enchanter, having the pet get the aggro from adds in the group being pulled is very nice.  It allows the MT and Healer from having to panic.  I also have Feign Death so although I miss some of the experience from the group I usually don't have to be resurected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It comes down to the group conforming and learning about the necro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also get a lot of invites from tanks who want to duo now hehe.</DIV>

[Urbanna]

<span><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:Thanks for all the responses! I would just like to add, just so perhaps we can help each other by sharing some information: <span><blockquote><hr>Urbannaja wrote:Generally I've never had the *pet* stealing agro from an already taunting tank. The pet can easily get the agro if he gets the initial attacks in AND has the defensive stance up, or if the tank is being lazy at taunting or not using very good agro management. Not to say that it's your fault, but I've noticed between different players of the same classes some HUGE discrepencies in agro management. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Since the combat upgrade, most tanks have had more problems holding aggro across the board to begin with, but some classes are traditionally exceptionally bad at group aggro. In particular, you're seeing a lot more Brawlers, as they've been recognized as the new "flavor of the month" tank class. The thing about Bruisers (and probably Monks, but I can't say for sure), is that they have only one weak AE attack, two mediocre taunts (single-target and encounter wide), no aggro increasing or reducing buffs to speak of, and a hate proc that works off of doing damage. In contrast, a Warrior would have better taunts than a Brawler, more group-wide aggro management tools, more group buffs (= aggro), and a reactive hate proc. Just to underline the difference in hate procs, every time a Warrior an gets hit, they have a chance at generating more hate. Every time a Brawler hits something, they have a chance at generating more hate. So Warriors will have a better time at group aggro, while Brawlers should be able to hold single-target aggro vastly better. This, in theory, should make a Brawler better at peeling something off you, but unless Rescue is up, nearly every Fighter is very poor at peeling mobs right now. And if you've managed to peel a whole group, fogeddaboudit. I'm not sure about Crusaders, but I think they have more AEs and also heals/wards/buffs that helps them manage aggro. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Just to clarify....I wasn't talking AT ALL about brawlers. Most of my experience is with guardians and pallys. The ONLY tank that has consistantly held agro from *me* when I go all out has been a pally 2 lvls above me. But holding agro from just my *pet* doesn't seem to be an issue unless the tank isn't doing his job. Occasionally the shadowy destroyer will proc everything at once with a shadestrike and pull agro, but that's not often, and not normally a problem.</span><div></div>

[SageGaspar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Urbannaja wrote:<span> Just to clarify....I wasn't talking AT ALL about brawlers. Most of my experience is with guardians and pallys. The ONLY tank that has consistantly held agro from *me* when I go all out has been a pally 2 lvls above me. But holding agro from just my *pet* doesn't seem to be an issue unless the tank isn't doing his job. Occasionally the shadowy destroyer will proc everything at once with a shadestrike and pull agro, but that's not often, and not normally a problem.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> That's cool, I wasn't being defensive or anything ;d I just figured it'd be handy for some Necros that might be as ignorant about tanks as I am about mages to learn some of the limitations of the tank subclasses, hehe.</span><div></div>

[schrammy]

<DIV>Another thing to be considered is (given we use the dps pets) They dont give a rats [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about aggro control.</DIV> <DIV>A PC warlock will try to time its attacks in order to leave you aggro. PC Asasins dont go using their highest dmg hits whenever they can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pets are not players therefor they dont think like we do. The necromancer "orders" the pet to kill and off he goes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the tank pet. It is designed to taunt its butt of so he can steal the aggro from me. (pre CU he didnt care <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV>So if the necro has the defensive stance on, he will do everything in its might to get that aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>