Master 2 of either Swarm of Rats or Lifetap. Can't decide??

[ZachDarkfly]

<DIV>At a roadblock trying to decided between these two.  Let me know what you guys think?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am currently lev 25.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV><p>Message Edited by ZachDarkfly on <span class=date_text>09-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:05 PM</span>

[prince_sd]

<DIV>I went for swarm of rats but only because i have adept3 siphon life. .. Actually, wait, what level are you ?</DIV>

[Dastion]

<DIV>I think he was refering to the level 24 training options.  I went with Lifetap, why? Because I don't need either of them right now, but if I ever have to mentor down...those lifetaps hit pretty darn hard.</DIV>

[Brutu]

<P>I can decide either <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Rats or Lifetep - that is the question <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I have Rats Adept already and it will be probably pretty hard to get Adept for Lifetap next few days/weeks - so I will go for Lifetap prolly - but is it a good choice? I dont knw...</P>

[Urbanna]

Lifetap....no question. You'll use it longer, and it's a huge upgrade. Rats are nice, but when testing app1 to master2 on beta I didn't notice much difference. I can't remember which lvl you get the next lifetap at...but I know that master2 lifetap is just about the same as app1 of the next in the line. Also keep in mind that rats can be killed and resisted and provide only DPS, a better life tap is more valuable because it keeps you in better health where health is at a premium now. <div></div>

[Calib]

I chose: Rats for second optinon the health transfer for 3rd I am very happy with it your life tap gets replaced quick <div></div>

[Aarionn]

LIFETAP is a MUST !!! (Master II) I had Swarm of Rats at Adept III and I choose Lifetam. OMG!!!! More than 350 dmg. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that is far the moust I ever did! <div></div>

[borw]

<P>With the current necro setup you should always go Lifetaps and Heals for your training options.</P> <P>Reasons behind this is that you need good heals to keep your pet up while leveling and you always need good lifetaps to keep your health up while leveling.</P> <P>If not then you will be sitting around after each fight waiting for your health to come back up.</P>

[El Chupacabr]

<div></div>See this post, it pretty much sums up why lifetap is not the best choice for the master 2. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=9594&query.id=12509#M9594 <div></div><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 AM</span>

[Grey_Gho]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:<div></div>See this post, it pretty much sums up why lifetap is not the best choice for the master 2. <hr></blockquote>Which post in that thread sums it up?</span><div></div>

[Xalmat]

<a href=http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=9594&query.id=12509#M9594 target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=9594&query.id=12509#M9594</a>

[Grey_Gho]

<span><blockquote><hr>Xalmat wrote:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=9594&query.id=12509#M9594" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=9594&query.id=12509#M9594</a><hr></blockquote>I see nothing in that thread that would help me in picking <u>Swarm of Rats</u> over <u>Lifetap</u> or vice versa. I'm having a hard time deciding, currently have App1 Lifetap/App4 Rats. I have 102 int self buffed at 27. Lifetap 102 Power Cast 2.0 Re-Cast 9.0 271-331 damage 165 Heal</span><div></div>

[Brutu]

<DIV>After a long long thinking I choose Lifetap for following reasons (I was lev 27.4 yesterday, now 28.3):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Already have Adept1 Rats and it is easy to get Adept3 - everyone and their mum has recepie for it.</DIV> <DIV>2) I had App1 Lifetap (obviously) and it is impossible to get better version (no recepie, when someone get it price will be premium - already had seen App4 new spell lev 51 for 40g - lol)</DIV> <DIV>3) IMHO it is better to have Adept1(3) + Master2 then Master2 + App1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a long term decision it is probabely better to choose Rats, because DPS gain is bigger, but choosing lev24 training on lev 27 (and even on 24) is SHORT TERM decision - upgrades for both spells are available soon. And as short term decision is (thanks to abovesaid) Lifetap Master2 significantly better pick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2c, IMHO, etc <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[evhallion]

I'd go for the Rats. The next Lifetap you get (forget the name at the moment) is the equal of the M2 Lifetap at App1 and surpasses it at App2. Not sure the lvl you get it but I have it at lvl 35. Sadly I didn't notice it in my spellbook til after I choose Lifetap M2 (always look over spellbook before doing a blind respec due to a CU). Thankfully the respec at the end of the bonus xp week will save me from my haste and lack of foresight.

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grey_Ghost wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xalmat wrote:<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=9594&query.id=12509#M9594" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=9594&query.id=12509#M9594</A><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I see nothing in that thread that would help me in picking <U>Swarm of Rats</U> over <U>Lifetap</U> or vice versa. I'm having a hard time deciding, currently have App1 Lifetap/App4 Rats. <BR><BR>I have 102 int self buffed at 27.<BR><BR>Lifetap<BR>102 Power<BR>Cast 2.0<BR>Re-Cast 9.0<BR>271-331 damage<BR>165 Heal<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The arguements between the training masters are pretty much the same over all the tiers.  I firmly believe that rats and pet buffs are the way to go every time you get those options and I'll tell you why:</P> <UL> <LI>Lifetap casts every 11 seconds maximum for maybe a 20% increase in damage and heal from adept 3 to master 2 (depending on how far you're upgrading it, could be a bit more of an increase).  That master is a 27 DPS spell (if you get to cast it every 11 seconds and hit every time for average damage).  Shave 40% off it for an appIV and you're talking a 16 DPS spell.  That just isn't all that amazing an upgrade (not compared to the others anyways).</LI> <LI>Rats spells are the highest damage single spell (after lich) we have and once they're on, they're on for a minute.  Assume the damage from this spell increases by 40% (very low assumption as the difference between an adept 1 and 3 is amazingly high) and you're talking a much larger upgrade to your damage potential.  It doesn't cost you power to maintain 'em and they're very survivable, they don't get outright resists once on (low resist rate too) and you don't have to be still to do damage.</LI></UL> <P>Your choice of course, I always advise that the lifetaps be pretty high on the upgrade chain but are they worth that one master 2 per tier?  Nope.</P>

[hammong]

<DIV>I am thoroughly happy with my Rat choice at 24, but then I was also level 33 when I made that choice due to the respec.    At 33 the rats are a "white" con spell and do approximately 40-50 damage per hit, per rat, per round.   The Lifetap option is already green at 33 (it's a level 20 spell) and more than likely will be greyed out and marked "ineffective" in the next level or two. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd say that if you have Adept III rats now, then Lifetap might be a better choice.  If you're using Apprentice or Adept I level rats today, then go with Rats Master II and don't look back.   You will outgrow lifetap quicker. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Brutu]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <UL> <LI>Lifetap casts every 11 seconds maximum for maybe a 20% increase in damage and heal from adept 3 to master 2 (depending on how far you're upgrading it, could be a bit more of an increase).  That master is a 27 DPS spell (if you get to cast it every 11 seconds and hit every time for average damage).  Shave 40% off it for an appIV and you're talking a 16 DPS spell.  That just isn't all that amazing an upgrade (not compared to the others anyways).</LI> <LI>Rats spells are the highest damage single spell (after lich) we have and once they're on, they're on for a minute.  Assume the damage from this spell increases by 40% (very low assumption as the difference between an adept 1 and 3 is amazingly high) and you're talking a much larger upgrade to your damage potential.  It doesn't cost you power to maintain 'em and they're very survivable, they don't get outright resists once on (low resist rate too) and you don't have to be still to do damage.</LI></UL> <P>Your choice of course, I always advise that the lifetaps be pretty high on the upgrade chain but are they worth that one master 2 per tier?  Nope.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Lifetap is 9 sec recast.</DIV> <DIV>Rats stays for 45sec (with same recast)</DIV> <DIV>Also orcs on Zek are killing my rats vie some kind of AOE once from ten combats (prolly bug?)</DIV> <DIV>And also please consider what I mantioned few posts up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall I think Lifetap is better pick at lev 24 at this time. May change after Adept1(3) will become as common as Rat Adepts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for 54 lev pick Rats are for sure way to go.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brutus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <UL> <LI>Lifetap casts every 11 seconds maximum for maybe a 20% increase in damage and heal from adept 3 to master 2 (depending on how far you're upgrading it, could be a bit more of an increase).  That master is a 27 DPS spell (if you get to cast it every 11 seconds and hit every time for average damage).  Shave 40% off it for an appIV and you're talking a 16 DPS spell.  That just isn't all that amazing an upgrade (not compared to the others anyways).</LI> <LI>Rats spells are the highest damage single spell (after lich) we have and once they're on, they're on for a minute.  Assume the damage from this spell increases by 40% (very low assumption as the difference between an adept 1 and 3 is amazingly high) and you're talking a much larger upgrade to your damage potential.  It doesn't cost you power to maintain 'em and they're very survivable, they don't get outright resists once on (low resist rate too) and you don't have to be still to do damage.</LI></UL> <P>Your choice of course, I always advise that the lifetaps be pretty high on the upgrade chain but are they worth that one master 2 per tier?  Nope.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Lifetap is 9 sec recast.  <FONT color=#66ff00>With a two second cast time, totalling 11 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Rats stays for 45sec (with same recast)  <FONT color=#66ff00>Cast it then check the duration while it's running, it's one minute.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Also orcs on Zek are killing my rats vie some kind of AOE once from ten combats (prolly bug?)</DIV> <DIV>And also please consider what I mantioned few posts up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall I think Lifetap is better pick at lev 24 at this time. May change after Adept1(3) will become as common as Rat Adepts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for 54 lev pick Rats are for sure way to go.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Edit:  And I did consider what you said a few posts up, the rats spell is our single best spell (again, after lich) that necromancers get and why it should be as high as possible.  I specifically mentioned appIV's because I believe it is better to have master rats with appIV lifetap than adept1 rats and master lifetap... master rats with app1 lifetap is probably better as well.  I don't just say things willy-nilly and give bad info... logically, the most effective upgrade as the game is right now is the rats in this case, the pet offensive buff in some other cases.  If you just want a higher lifetap, that's ok but if you want to get the "best" upgrade, it's the rats.</DIV><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 AM</span>

[Brutu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...</P> <DIV>Lifetap is 9 sec recast.  <FONT color=#66ff00>With a two second cast time, totalling 11 seconds. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>Rats stays for 45sec (with same recast)  <FONT color=#66ff00>Cast it then check the duration while it's running, it's one minute.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>.....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for your opinion - I humbly respect it.</P> <P>As for the Lifetep - my bad.</P> <P>As for the Rats - its 45sec (just tried it).</P> <P><BR> </P>

[hammong]

<P>Brutus - Make sure your rats are behind mobs with Barrage type attacks.   SoE did allow swarm pets to avoid certain type sof AOE attacks, but it seems through experimentation that melee mobs that cast frontal multi-target attacks like Barrage will still hit them.   I haven't had the rats become injured since casting them from the rear like the good ole' days before Sep 13. </P> <P>One other consideration is that rats will despawn now at 45 seconds, whereas ethey used to stick around for more than a minute pre-patch.   The plus is that you can re-cast them immediately because the re-cast timer is 30 seconds.   </P>

[Brutu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hammong wrote:<BR> <P>Brutus - Make sure your rats are behind mobs with Barrage type attacks.   SoE did allow swarm pets to avoid certain type sof AOE attacks, but it seems through experimentation that melee mobs that cast frontal multi-target attacks like Barrage will still hit them.   I haven't had the rats become injured since casting them from the rear like the good ole' days before Sep 13. </P> <P>One other consideration is that rats will despawn now at 45 seconds, whereas ethey used to stick around for more than a minute pre-patch.   The plus is that you can re-cast them immediately because the re-cast timer is 30 seconds.   </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes - "confirmed" - tried it with kelp horrors at Zek harbour :</P> <P>- Rats in front of mob = 99% sance to get killed in a few sec.</P> <P>- Rats from back = never get killed</P> <P>Also Rats are 45sec recast, 45sec duration spell now. </P>

[Sosum]

<P>adpt3 plague of rats = 1min</P> <P>mstr2 swarm of rats = 45seconds</P> <P> </P> <P>currently im a 47th necro, Ill parse damage this weekend with these spells and see the what difference may be.</P>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Brutus7 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...</P> <DIV>Lifetap is 9 sec recast.  <FONT color=#66ff00>With a two second cast time, totalling 11 seconds. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>Rats stays for 45sec (with same recast)  <FONT color=#66ff00>Cast it then check the duration while it's running, it's one minute.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>.....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for your opinion - I humbly respect it.</P> <P>As for the Lifetep - my bad.</P> <P>As for the Rats - its 45sec (just tried it).</P> <P><BR> </P> <hr></blockquote>The L24 Rats are 45 seconds... The L38 Rats are 1 minute.

[bluestocking]

<P>I know this is a stupid, stupid, question, but I'll ask it anyway...</P> <P>Prior to Siphon Life what spells in our line up are single target lifetaps if we don't choose the lifetap training option?  </P> <P>The only one I'm seeing is Breath of the Unearthed and since that can aggro things besides your current encounter, it seems only limitedly useful and certainly not an even exchange for the Lifetap training option.</P> <P>I've looked at spell lists on ogaming.com and allakhazam, and I must be missing them?  /blush</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by bluestocking on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Eirgo]

<P>At lvl 20 you get Lifetap, and 35 Draw Life, and 50 Siphon Life.</P> <P>The training option at lvl 24 lets you get a free master 2 upgrade to lifetap as one of the choices, but if you chose to upgrade a different skill thats fine.  You can still upgrade Lifetap normally, it just wont be as effective, and at 35 you get your next lifetap spell which I believe will be as good as the 20 master 2 version, if not better, right off the bat.</P> <DIV><EDIT - oh yeah for a good spell list check out Handlebar's necro site <A href="http://eq2necromancer.com/index.html" target=_blank>http://eq2necromancer.com/index.html</A> ></DIV><p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 AM</span>

[vorek]

<P>The long and the short of the issue here is IF you are leveling through the levels and hit 24....the Lifetap is the clear winner. They both get upgrades the same # of levels following when you get the first one. </P> <P>HOWEVER:</P> <P>The Adept III of the Rats (pretty easy to get now) is almost as good and still massive DPS.</P> <P>There is currently no way to improve Lifetap past App II.</P> <P> </P> <P>Hands down....LIFETAP</P>

[Grey_Gho]

<span><blockquote><hr>vorek wrote: There is currently no way to improve Lifetap past App II. <div></div><hr></blockquote>My Lifetap is App IV. Now if only I had the advanced level 20 sage recipes...</span><div></div>

[Nosewar]

<DIV>These are all good arguments pro and con.  Rats is a great spell but someone at 25 already has 4 stackable DoTs (including rats), while Lifetap is a necro's only direct means to heal himself.  I'd argue that Lifetap would be the best choice for someone at 25, to look forward to 10 more levels of master Lifetap before the next upgrade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, while parsing the DPS of rats looks like a sound argument, one cannot fairly compare rats DPS to Lifetap DPS, the latter of which also has the benefit of healing the necro every hp dealt to the enemy.  Effectively Lifetap would be twice as effective in the overall picture vs its damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a very tough choice, but I'd go with Lifetap. I'd rather have a powerful self heal available at all times than another DoT.</DIV>

[Ilavatar]

I went with Lifetap. I need it to stay alive during soloing and when things go bad in groups. Also I find that when we enter a dungeon or at similar times,  the mobs don't last long enough to justify swarm of rats. But Lifetap is always useful - its a good damage spell as well as a heal.

[eolse]

I agree with Havatar the mobs dont last as long for rats youll rack up more xp with life tap +  having a high life tap means healing more and when you solo heroic ^^^ names your gana spam your heal every time its up  that m2 life tap will slow down your health reduction from healing.   not saying rats are bad but  life taps & dots b4 swarm pets.

[Truffor]

With all resists that came with EoF and the last kick in the balls to swarm pet (acting poor while soloing because "in raids..."), I vote lifetap.<div></div>

[Deila]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Truffor wrote:<BR>With all resists that came with EoF and the last kick in the balls to swarm pet (acting poor while soloing because "in raids..."), I vote lifetap.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Choose what you like, of course, but you know that of all of our spells, swarm/dumbfire pets are the ones that <EM>can't</EM> be resisted....</P> <P> </P>

[Truffor]

Because swarm pets can't be resisted whereas lifetap can, choosing lifetap master II improves DPS more than you think. Let's say it can save you just a resist over a minute, now guess what... <div></div>

[Vlath]

<P>Coming from a PVP server where 80% of the population are scouts...Rats can be sent away when your opponent goes into stealth. They do not re-engage. Ive found rats are the same as a disease Dot, thus they can be cured.</P> <P>From a PVP perspective, Lifetap is the way to go.</P>