9/11 test change part 2 - pet defensive stance buffs hp instead of mitigation?

[cfteagu]

<DIV>Hi, has anyone tried tank pets in test with defensive stance, since this change?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If pets are loosing mitigation percentages, are they getting a corresponding percentage boost of hps?  (ie: if the buff used to add 20% mitigation, are they now adding 20% more hps?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or more importantly, does the tank pet tank ok?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[wurtin]

<DIV>I'm curious about this as well.  It sounds like all mitigation will be handled through the defensive stance only , where before the pet spell level and stance impacted mitigation.  To me it sounds like they are trying to make sure our heals can't keep up with the damage our pet will take against tougher mobs.  Thus not allowing us to solo yellow and reds via pet tanking. </DIV>

[prince_sd]

<DIV>The defensive buff now gives 12% hp bonus at adept1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pet tanking has indeed been hit hard. With 0 mitigation it still tanks solo con mobs (white no arrow, blue ^ arrow) if you have an adept3/ master pet. But a lot of its health is lost and downtime is way too high to regain those extra pet hp. A group of down arrow mobs (effectively still solo con) eat him up very fast but you can still survive the fight if you spam pet heals or spam damage spells and tank a bit yourself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pet just doesn't tank heroics (green possibly if you spam heals). If currently (like I do) you are used to using the pet in groups in absence of a tank then you will find this change will hit you hard. Especially because npc damage is not mitigated and the pet takes the full blow while heals (ours and healers) are unchanged so it becomes a nightmare to keep the pet up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I should qualify that necros have still been able to take heroics if you don't use the pet to tank. If you pm me or rizaz we can explain the technique in detail.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it depends on whats important. If you want pet to tank solo mobs upgrade your pet and buffs to adept3 and you should be fine. If in small groups you are used to pet tanking heroics then that option is gone. If you are used to pull adds off tanks in raids and groups in dire situations (tank pet baiting to help tank survive) then that option is out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh 1 more thing i observed, if you get a solo con add on your pet its time to yell and run. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Disclaimer: My views are only based on test server and beta testing. Other necros might have other views which i totally respect. Please don't character assasinate me is all I ask.</DIV><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class=date_text>09-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:05 PM</span>

[prince_sd]

<DIV>Another thing that really worries me is the warlock pet hp and 0 mitigation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used it on beta server on a few raids and it just doesn't have the hp to sustain our devour health spell. An aoe hits the warlock pet and the pet just goes poof, literally. Some fixes to take care of warlock pet not going into melee range have been added. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it stands now, our scout pet is the right balance between dps and standing up power and would be our mainstay in raids</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just to give approximate numbers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adept3 pet hps at level 50 before defensive buff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlock Pet: 1800</DIV> <DIV>Scout Pet: 3800</DIV> <DIV>Tank pet: 6600</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NPC's hit in 250-500 range at level 50 and have specials of around 1000-1500. Most PC's (including us ) mitigate a % of that damage but pets take the full blow. You can do the maths about how long the pet will stay up and what heals you need to spam.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again to qualify my negative view, necros can still kill mobs easily not the pet way (which should be the summoner way imo)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><SPAN class=time_text> <DIV>Disclaimer: My views are only based on test server and beta testing. Other necros might have other views which i totally respect. Please don't character assasinate me is all I ask.</DIV></SPAN><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class=date_text>09-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 PM</span>

[Cly]

For me the PM option does not work, sorry. So I ask directly: does kiting work again? Or is there a new hunting technique?

[prince_sd]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Clywd wrote:<BR>For me the PM option does not work, sorry. So I ask directly: does kiting work again? Or is there a new hunting technique?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Clywd check your pm :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class=date_text>09-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:51 PM</span>

[cfteagu]

<P>Hmm, on Live, I'm used to the tank pet being able to easily tank any solo mob (up to yellow maybe more), and able to tank non-named heroic mobs if they are green.   Depends on the mobs, sometimes it has to be *barely* green (1 lvl away from gray), sometimes it can be 1-2 levels away from gray.</P> <P>Also, I'm used to the pet being able to tank multiple mobs, if the encounter is rated solo, up to about white.  Maybe only blue if they cast a lot.</P> <P>If the multiple mob group is labelled heroic, then again, it has to be green.  For a heroic group of 4 normal mobs, this can be slightly easier than a single ++ green mob, or more dangerous, depending on the mob. Basically, if its heroic, it usally has to be 1 level away from green.  Green heroic named are almost always too tough to have pet tank.</P> <P>So, thats what I've come to expect for soloing...</P> <P>It doesn't sound like I will like the newest changes on Test.  Can anyone comment on whether the tank pet can tank a low-green heroic mob?</P> <P>I do a lot of questing vs heroic mobs when they are green, and this is important to me.   If I can't solo them while they still provide some exp and some chance at a chest dropping, then my questing will be a waste of time, and will make the game that much less fun to me...</P> <P>Thanks</P> <P> </P>

[borw]

<P>All I can say is that I hope that once this patch goes live that having adept 3's will help alot but if they dont then the dev's better do a complete turn around on this nerf c-rap and return things to where they were in beta before 9/7/2005 and think of another way to make Heroics more of a challenge then nerfing us to hell and back.</P> <P>Oh and if we cant solo group con npc's but then I turn around and see another profession soloing them [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] straight im gonna bug it every day until they either fix our profession that they nerfed to hell and back or they make the other professions join us.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[prince_sd]

<DIV>Actually we can solo heroic mobs. Unfortunately its not using a pet but as i said using a different technique and therein lies the big debate if summoners should be pet classes or not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing I should mention is that the tank pet holds aggro very well. Even from linked mobs. </DIV> <DIV>He cannot tank crap which is the big issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone asked about soloing green ^^^. Moorguard said a person in fabled/ adept3 should be able to solo them. </DIV> <DIV>Necros can't do that with their pet. But you can if you know a different technique.</DIV>

[Xaen Ne]

Looks like they brought the classic necro kiting back into the game?

[prince_sd]

<P>This post will tell you what the technique is. Its my humorous attempt to describe the pet mitigation change. Everything i describe is still true. Its true that our small group options are limited now and its true we can kill heroics.</P> <P><EM>Copied from my post in Beta forums</EM></P> <DIV>There are many similar threads. I will make 1 more attempt. A story i will try to tell through pictures and parses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This story starts on eq2live where I duo with a healer friend. I have a friend who plays a scout, wizard too but I was never able to duo or trio with them because the tank pet never kept aggro off them. Then came the combat revamp and I was a happy necro. Hey, my tank pet was holding aggro like a champ and he was tanking like a champ in his defensive stance. Then comes  the 9/05 series of patches. One after the other and now my tank pet can't hold aggro off the scout. The necro feels very sad that now he can't duo with his scout, wizard friends. But then he notices another thing. He has to distance himself from his healer friend too. </DIV> <DIV>Why you say ? Watch this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where the healer is trying to perform the impossible task of keeping the tank pet alive against a blue heroic mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3276/eq20000202ok.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note 1: We are in fabled and adept3/ masters. (Cryptic metallic robe if you can recognize)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note 2: Tank pet is in defensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note 3: We are trying our best. I have swarm pets, dots. healer is trying to heal and even melee and do some damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note 4: there's a wizard and scout in group but I have asked them not to help this fight for test purposes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soon, the pet has died and the healer is trying to save his necro friend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5679/eq20000219lm.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The necro says. Hey thats not possible. Must be a bad run we are having. This is even more broken than live. Let me check the parses and we will know for sure. So he looks at the parses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/2885/parse0tz.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And what does he observe. That this was probably the best and luckiest fight they had</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why you say ? Because, the spectre missed his harm touch. If that had landed .... loading please wait</DIV> <DIV>The pet took 17.5 k damage in 1.5 minutes. Every hit from the spectre was 250-1000 damage without the harm touch. That's what my healer friend was up against. And the only thing he was able to  say was "ouch".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the necro is now alone. His friends don't want to duo/ trio with him. And he wonders maybe this was only <FONT color=#ff0000><EM>an intentional fix</EM></FONT>. So he goes back and tries soloing the spectre without his junk pet and voila</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1383/eq20000227xn.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And he defeats the big heroic ^^^ mob with his app1 spell.</DIV> <DIV>And then he wonders was anything fixed or only the right things broken and the wrong things untouched.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But here this story ends. </DIV> <DIV>And O' developers hear this necro's plea. <FONT color=#ff0000>Fix my class and give me back my friends.</FONT></DIV>

[Lodor]

<P>Snare kiting hasnt changed if anything it was made alot easier with the revamp.</P> <P>On live a necro could snare kite a max orange con heroic if they had room.  Now with revamp you can do the same long </P> <P>as snare lands and then just drop the tons of dots and swarm pets.</P> <P> </P> <P>The point of the tank pet is to be a meatshield that can hold agression.  It can no longer do that when you are in a group of more then yourself.</P>

[prince_sd]

<P>this just came in. No comments.</P> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Desert of Flames ***</FONT></STRONG><BR> <BR><STRONG>Necromancer changes:<BR></STRONG>- The Clinging Darkness line now has a chance to break when a hostile act is performed on the target. Damage from the spell itself will not break the snare.<BR></DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II </P>

[Tinantier]

<span><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<p>this just came in. No comments.</p> <div><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** Desert of Flames ***</font></strong> <strong>Necromancer changes:</strong>- The Clinging Darkness line now has a chance to break when a hostile act is performed on the target. Damage from the spell itself will not break the snare.</div> <p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. MoorgardGame Designer, EverQuest II </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> same with the snare dolls too - you can bet this means that the darkness spells wont last long enough to make them worth casting anyone had the chance to actually test this?</span><div></div>

[Mephli]

<P>/hangs head</P> <P> </P> <P>....... I remember</P>

[Suraklin]

<DIV>I would challenge Moorguard to a duel in game but since necro is nerfed to hell it wouldn't be worth it now.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Suraklin on <span class=date_text>09-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 AM</span>

[schrammy]

<DIV>This sucks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently in live i can do writs in LS WHILE harvesting.</DIV> <DIV>I just sick pet on 2 goblins, and watch them die. Heck if i do not harvest i can take up to 3 (sometimes 4) green solo goblins, thank to the pets tanking ability, and that is how a MASTER thrall should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the last 3 patches where almost exclusively about nerfing necro/conj pets. Why do they hate us so much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: the last 3 patches where almost exclusively about nerfing necro/conj pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>err, offcourse i meant the changes to necros where only about pet nerfs.</DIV> <DIV>I still know that they made it so that the poor noobs getting killed by the tutorial rat too <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by schrammy on <span class=date_text>09-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Cly]

Thanks for the PM, prince, but kiting is no longer an option.I guess I will have a short look at DoF now and then leave this game until my necromancer is again worth logging in.

[wurtin]

<P>Wow, I don't understand the nerf to snare.  Why have it in the game at all if you're going to screw it like that.  Snare isn't root.</P> <P>... and no fun is had by all.  It's amazing how they can depress a whole class with one line in the patch notes.</P>

[prince_sd]

<P>Ya since the snare has been "fixed" now, i can explain the technique in detail here. It was simple snare aggro kiting, just as in live. </P> <P>You use root/ fear to get snare on. Also, get swarm pets + stench pet + main pet on mob. Then kite like a puppy. Put a spell or 2 in between to keep aggro and some extra damage. It was easy and necros/ conj could kite heroics easily with that.</P> <P>The 'nerf' or 'fix' to the snare line was basically to stop anyone kiting heroics.</P> <P>The root hardly sticks now when there's a hostile spell (check out warlock forums, they were most affected by this change) and i suspect snare will have the same problem. Bye bye snare kiting i guess.</P> <P> </P>

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> prince_sd wrote: <P>The root hardly sticks now when there's a hostile spell (check out warlock forums, they were most affected by this change) and i suspect snare will have the same problem. Bye bye snare kiting i guess.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Any hostile spell?  I know our roots have always been junk against DD's, but thats to be suspected.  Do our roots not hold up against DoT's now either?  Root rotting can be a slow way to kill things (since you cant use your pet or swarm pets), but may provide a way to kill harder mobs for quests or loot or whatnot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not, thats fine - I plan on grouping for most of the way to 60 anyways, would just be nice to have an option to kill things like this solo.</DIV>