Necros lose their snares - training options gone :(

[xAlar]

<DIV>Goodbye level 10 and 40 snares, taken out of the game.  I hope regular spells are added back in to counteract this - it's a huge negative change for us  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eirgo]

<DIV>Im hoping that they add a new spell line in for the necros with a snare component.  Moorgard just posted on the Dirge forums that they should get a new run buff spell line to make up for their lvl 30 training choice that is being erased.  I will /feedback in beta tonight when I get logged in and try to give it a nudge : )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>

[xAlar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im hoping that they add a new spell line in for the necros with a snare component.  Moorgard just posted on the Dirge forums that they should get a new run buff spell line to make up for their lvl 30 training choice that is being erased.  I will /feedback in beta tonight when I get logged in and try to give it a nudge : )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>One other thing - maybe nudge them to use the beautiful rotting dogs animation (taken out of the game with the loss of the level 30 dogs training option)....for our level 51 upgrade of our level 37 rats?  The rats were ok at level 37, but let's get those great-looking dogs back in at 51 - the animation is already done, so it's no work from the SOE art end.</P> <P>Thanks!</P> <P> </P>

[Eirgo]

Good idea imo, and I will /feedback that as well:smileyhappy:

[Nainitsuj]

I never liked the dogs.  I don't like the rats either.  I use the lvl 45 fluff spell and let little midget skeletons do some melee.

[LyricDawnhag]

<P>Oh I love the dogs.  I am the first Freeport citizen in my guild and I believe the first necromancer they ever grouped with.  I pulled out the puppies the first time and the chanter called "ADD" and started trying to mez them.  Needless to say, I was ROFLMAO.  The chanter did not speak to me for 2 days.</P> <P>Puppies for the upgrade!</P> <P> </P>

[quamdar]

moorgard said in a post: "Please also note that many of the distinct abilities that were granted only as Training choices (e.g. group cures, Dirge runspeed buff) have already been or will be added elsewhere in the spell line of the appropriate class." so don't worry too much hopefully they give us atleast some snare back hopefully. <div></div>

[xAlar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR>Good idea imo, and I will /feedback that as well:smileyhappy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, ok, one more thing  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Is there any word about giving us a third special level 50 spell?  The first two are generally considered pretty bad (I agree), almost to the point of being utterlyuseless -most especially when compared to some of the truly awesome spells various other classes got.  The devs still have an out here:  add a third spell that Necros might actually use  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks!</P> <P> </P>

[pyrotechn]

<P>Well they may give us our snares back, i'm hoping that they are actually taking them from *every* class.  Snare kiting is a way of defeating a mob without respect to its offensive/defensive abilities (save its ability to resist snare or to nuke you while being kited).  While class balancing is going on, they should focus on making us balanced without respect to cheasy tactics like snare kiting - which ought to be removed from all classes imo.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Elik]

In a game where appearence is everything, taking the Hounds away is a deadly sin.. :smileysad: Please, dont take my qute dogs away.. :smileysad: I will miss them so, they keep me warm in the cold, damp Nektulos nights, i was looking forward to growing old with my dogs..

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xAlaric wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR>Good idea imo, and I will /feedback that as well:smileyhappy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, ok, one more thing  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Is there any word about giving us a third special level 50 spell?  The first two are generally considered pretty bad (I agree), almost to the point of being utterlyuseless -most especially when compared to some of the truly awesome spells various other classes got.  The devs still have an out here:  add a third spell that Necros might actually use  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks!</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I havent had a chance to read many posts in the Beta forums, but I did read one that highlighted necros and had a dev comment saying that they hadnt forgotten about our 3rd spell.  No word on what it may be though, at least not to my knowledge.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR></P>

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pyrotechnic wrote:<BR> <P>Well they may give us our snares back, i'm hoping that they are actually taking them from *every* class.  Snare kiting is a way of defeating a mob without respect to its offensive/defensive abilities (save its ability to resist snare or to nuke you while being kited).  While class balancing is going on, they should focus on making us balanced without respect to cheasy tactics like snare kiting - which ought to be removed from all classes imo.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Since rangers are mainly bow users, it's cheesy for them to use snares?  That's like saying it's cheesy of us to use our pets or it's cheesy of a tank to use armor.</DIV>

[pyrotechn]

<P>If a ranger can run around indefinately shooting arrows at a mob and eventually killing it, without taking damage, then yes something is wrong with that.  It should not be possible to negate all offensive ability of a mob, while attacking and killing that mob.  Should rangers get some advantage for being bow based?  Sure.  But not an advantage that lasts an entire encounter, that allows them to run circles around a mob shooting arrows at it until its dead.  </P> <P>Your analogy to mages using Pets and Tanks using armor is inapropos because pets and tanks using armor both take damage and can die by taking damage faster than they can be healed.  While a ranger, necro, or conjurer, can certainly die while snare kiting if they make mistakes, its also true that the combat abilities  of the mob make very little difference.  Whether a mob is heroic or epic, green or orange, makes very little difference to me when I'm snare kiting.  Any mob that can be snare kited becomes trivial.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xAlaric wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirgorn wrote:<BR>Good idea imo, and I will /feedback that as well:smileyhappy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, ok, one more thing  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Is there any word about giving us a third special level 50 spell?  The first two are generally considered pretty bad (I agree), almost to the point of being utterlyuseless -most especially when compared to some of the truly awesome spells various other classes got.  The devs still have an out here:  add a third spell that Necros might actually use  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks!</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I <FONT color=#cc0000>havent had a chance to read many posts in the Beta forums, but I did read one that highlighted necros and had a dev comment saying that they hadnt forgotten about our 3rd spell.  No word on what it may be though, at least not to my knowledge.</FONT></P> <P>Thanks,<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please God let it be a Spectre Pet! Please! <BR>

[Urbanna]

<span><blockquote><hr>pyrotechnic wrote:<p>If a ranger can run around indefinately shooting arrows at a mob and eventually killing it, without taking damage, then yes something is wrong with that.  It should not be possible to negate all offensive ability of a mob, while attacking and killing that mob.  Should rangers get some advantage for being bow based?  Sure.  But not an advantage that lasts an entire encounter, that allows them to run circles around a mob shooting arrows at it until its dead.  </p> <p>Your analogy to mages using Pets and Tanks using armor is inapropos because pets and tanks using armor both take damage and can die by taking damage faster than they can be healed.  While a ranger, necro, or conjurer, can certainly die while snare kiting if they make mistakes, its also true that the combat abilities  of the mob make very little difference.  Whether a mob is heroic or epic, green or orange, makes very little difference to me when I'm snare kiting.  Any mob that can be snare kited becomes trivial.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Incorrect. You say that it's completely different when dealing with pets/armor...but it isn't. Scouts can easily die by taking more resists than they can handle, the same as tanks taking more damage than can be healed...also, any encounter that can be tanked indefinitely because of pets/armor becomes trivial as well. Also, the mere fact that a scout can *eventually* kill most non-red, non-ranged mobs isn't a problem at all IMO. I see no harm in a scout taking 5 mins to kill 1 mob (that can still kill him with resists) for a paultry amount of exp and loot, where more exp and loot could have been obtained by taking on blue solo mobs during the same time frame. Also, there are currently many more examples of that exact thing happening: melee fighters had been able to easily solo green heroics much quicker and easier with no risk; enchanters can mezz/nuke named orange heroics if they don't mind taking forever to do it. A telling example that the devs feel the same way is the relaxing of encounter locking making it so that high lvl players can now help low lvl players kill and get exp/loot for higher encounters with little risk as long as they put the time into it: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pround&message.id=2945#M2945 I think it's very good for the game to give players the *chance* to take out higher lvl mobs with the right tactics and effort, be it for a quest, loot, or the thrill. It's not unbalanced because the rewards can be obtained more readily from traditional methods. </span><div></div>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Urbannaja wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>pyrotechnic wrote:<p>If a ranger can run around indefinately shooting arrows at a mob and eventually killing it, without taking damage, then yes something is wrong with that.  It should not be possible to negate all offensive ability of a mob, while attacking and killing that mob.  Should rangers get some advantage for being bow based?  Sure.  But not an advantage that lasts an entire encounter, that allows them to run circles around a mob shooting arrows at it until its dead.  </p> <p>Your analogy to mages using Pets and Tanks using armor is inapropos because pets and tanks using armor both take damage and can die by taking damage faster than they can be healed.  While a ranger, necro, or conjurer, can certainly die while snare kiting if they make mistakes, its also true that the combat abilities  of the mob make very little difference.  Whether a mob is heroic or epic, green or orange, makes very little difference to me when I'm snare kiting.  Any mob that can be snare kited becomes trivial.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Incorrect. You say that it's completely different when dealing with pets/armor...but it isn't. Scouts can easily die by taking more resists than they can handle, the same as tanks taking more damage than can be healed...also, any encounter that can be tanked indefinitely because of pets/armor becomes trivial as well. Also, the mere fact that a scout can *eventually* kill most non-red, non-ranged mobs isn't a problem at all IMO. I see no harm in a scout taking 5 mins to kill 1 mob (that can still kill him with resists) for a paultry amount of exp and loot, where more exp and loot could have been obtained by taking on blue solo mobs during the same time frame. Also, there are currently many more examples of that exact thing happening: melee fighters had been able to easily solo green heroics much quicker and easier with no risk; enchanters can mezz/nuke named orange heroics if they don't mind taking forever to do it. A telling example that the devs feel the same way is the relaxing of encounter locking making it so that high lvl players can now help low lvl players kill and get exp/loot for higher encounters with little risk as long as they put the time into it: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pround&message.id=2945#M2945 I think it's very good for the game to give players the *chance* to take out higher lvl mobs with the right tactics and effort, be it for a quest, loot, or the thrill. It's not unbalanced because the rewards can be obtained more readily from traditional methods. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Both of your posts are right <b>and</b> wrong.Kiting to some degree is ok. Summoners don't like getting hit. Thats our archilles heal. We get hit we die. So pets give us a way of controlling the damage we take, such that we can perform at a certain level. If a ranger is snaring and ends up as effective as a mage with a pet, its all good.The slippery slope is that if the snare is too good, then you have a situation where a melee class is able to engage in combat without getting touched. That's not right.The balance for both is someplace in the non-trivial middle. Snare should be effective enough to buy you time and maybe help you control combat, but not so effective that it alone helps you kill stuff.A summoner that over nukes or doesn't use good pet management is a dead summoner. A scout that doesn't manage snares properly or tries to fight too far above his level should be just as dead. As long as the end result is that both classes expend similar resources and have a similar chance to fail, its all good.