Necro efficiency/utility/damage/lvl50 concerns revisited

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>For those in the know, I've been posting about those topics for the last five months or so, hoping to get some resolution to these problems... so, what's really changing in the combat revamp and how do we compare to other mages?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are the original threads:</DIV> <DIV>Necro efficiency:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=5205&query.id=22299#M5205" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=5205&query.id=22299#M5205</A></DIV> <DIV>Necro utility/damage:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=48724&query.id=22358#M48724" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=48724&query.id=22358#M48724</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would have thrown this into Deson's thread though I'm going to go beyond just utility and into direct comparisons of some of the classes main abilities.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Necromancer efficiency pre-combat change:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skinrot:  2.2 Damage Per Power (DPP from now on)</DIV> <DIV>Siphon Life:  2.4 DPP</DIV> <DIV>Ghastly Stench:  4.5 DPP</DIV> <DIV>Deaths Coil:  3.2 DPP</DIV> <DIV>Pet:  Approximately 4.6 DPP (Yes, pet buffs used to use power, alot of it!)</DIV> <DIV>Average:  3.4 DPP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Necromancer efficiency post-combat change:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Skinrot:  8.2 DPP</DIV> <DIV>Siphon Life:  8.8 DPP</DIV> <DIV>Ghastly Stench:  ? DPP</DIV> <DIV>Deaths Coil:  19.8 DPP</DIV> <DIV>Pet:  No power really required</DIV> <DIV>Average:   12.3 DPP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>So, what's this mean to us?</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necro efficiency has been fixed, our DPP (total damage/power=DPP) is now at a reasonable level when compared to the other mages.  Our pet tap is going down but it should be reasonable when compared to the improved efficiency of the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Necromancer damage:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just a chain I threw together to exploit recast timers whenever I could.  Chaining is a little tougher now due to those long recast/duration spells we have now.  The five second DoT of skinrot makes it a little rough, too.</DIV> <UL> <LI>+1       Horrific Mark</LI> <LI>+3.5    Swarm of Bats</LI> <LI>+6       Plague of Rats</LI> <LI>+9.5    Stench of the Grave</LI> <LI>+11     Death's Coil</LI> <LI>+13.5  Skinrot</LI> <LI>+16     Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+18.5  Skinrot</LI> <LI>+22     Torrential Plague</LI> <LI>+24.5  Skinrot</LI> <LI>+27     Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+29.5  Swarm of Bats</LI> <LI>+32     Skinrot</LI> <LI>+35.5  Torrential Plague</LI> <LI>+38     Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+40.5  Skinrot</LI> <LI>+43     Devour Health</LI> <LI>+46     Skinrot</LI> <LI>+47.5  Death's Coil</LI> <LI>+50     Siphon Life</LI> <LI>+52.5  Plague of Rats</LI> <LI>+55     Stench of the Grave</LI> <LI>+57.5  Swarm of Bats</LI> <LI>+60     Skinrot</LI></UL> <P>Total Damage=11,706</P> <P>DPS=195</P> <P>Well, that's not too great... but let's include the rats and pet damage (don't have any numbers for stench of the grave yet)!</P> <P>Rats DPS=60 (total between the fetid and plague, assuming that they'll be down for 15 seconds between casts)</P> <P>Warlock pet DPS=110</P> <P>Total DPS=365</P> <P>Ok, that's pretty impressive I guess... but wait, there's more!  I sure was a busy beaver in the cast department...</P> <P>Total disease based casts=24</P> <P>Lich damage=296 per disease based attack</P> <P>Lich total damage=7,104</P> <P>Lich DPS=118</P> <P>Necromancer total damage (excluding stench of the grave)=483</P> <P><EM>What's that all mean?  Well, it means that by spell descriptions our damage has been fixed!  This leads us into the merits of the level 50 special spells.</EM></P> <UL> <LI>Warlock Devastation:</LI> <UL> <LI>3,295 damage every 49 seconds (single target)</LI> <LI>67.2 DPS</LI></UL> <LI>Conjurer Blazing Presence:</LI> <UL> <LI>7,793 damage every 48 seconds (probably a dead pet before it's run out)</LI> <LI>162 DPS  (This damage assumes one successful attack every two seconds)</LI></UL> <LI>Necromancer Lich:</LI> <UL> <LI>7,104 damage every 60 seconds</LI> <LI>Heal necro for 3,408 every 60 seconds</LI> <LI>Increased power and power regen</LI> <LI>118 DPS</LI></UL> <LI>Coercer Psychic Wail:</LI> <UL> <LI>1,225 damage every 48 seconds</LI> <LI>Six second stun/stifle (AoE)</LI> <LI>25.5 DPS</LI></UL></UL> <P>There are more spells to compare but that's enough for me to say we actually have an amazing level 50 spell now (once it works correctly of course).</P> <P><EM>On to utility... this one was bothering me until I looked at what happened to some other classes utility.</EM></P> <OL> <LI>I'm still of the opinion that teachings of the dead should grant your group a lifetap proc since it doesn't do much of anything now.</LI> <LI>Lost our ward spell but gained a targeted health transfer spell... I'd call that a net gain since we lifetap for so much now.</LI> <LI>Gained combat rez and it's about time!</LI> <LI>Lost our power drain, half our stat debuffs and a ton of our noxious debuffing utility.</LI> <LI>Root has been increased to 108 seconds with a 75% chance of fear and snare at completion.  16 second recast.</LI> <LI>Terror is 15 second duration 30 second recast.</LI></OL> <P>I'm going to call this a net gain of utility... I didn't realize it until I started looking at the other mages nerfs.  Necromancers can now neutralize two mobs for longer then any other single class.  Necro root was once called ghetto mez... now I'm of the opinion the fear/root will become a viable form of crowd control.  Enchanters got a pet, we got powerful crowd control.</P> <P><STRONG>Now, discuss!</STRONG></P> <P>Edit:  Damage numbers and spell durations/descriptions for the necromancer class came from Rizaz's thread <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=8699" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=8699</A>  All damage numbers were averaged to give a median damage rating, with necro/defiler/warlock debuffs running there is certainly the potential for higher damage as will having a higher then average intelligence.</P> <P>I should also note that saying we could lock two targets down by spell description is a little bit wrong, we should be able to lock three down quite easily... two with fear/root and one with the pet.  If you are only doing crowd control I think you could lock down quite a bit more then this, the only choke point will be the recast timers of root and terror.  Root to start the pull, send the pet on another, terror the third and root a few seconds later... it's a Christmas miracle!</P><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:25 PM</span>

[Kirotaan]

I like the idea of the new DPS it sounds like we might start becoming a powerhouse class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It looks like we had a 300% (I am bad with percents) DPS upgrade personally so thats good.  I am kinda miffed about not being able to debuff agi and str anymore because that <u>really</u> helped with the pet tanking.  Also Nox resist debuffs were handy cause you did more dmg but it sounds like when you get lich that becomes less of a problem <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  just gotta wait till you get lich <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Eirgo]

<P>First I'd like to say thanks for the nice write up Chup, thorough as usual :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I guess my initial impression is that the necro class is becoming more efficient (DPP greatly increased as you have shown) and we will have more options to choose from while in combat, making us a more dynamic class than we are at present (combat rez, heal allies, nice AE damage).  This is a very good thing in my opinion and I am greatly anticipating these changes.</P> <P>The DPS boost is great, and I love the methods in which our DPS was raised.  More powerful lifetaps and OMG a true AE (accursed cloud M1 - 800dmg, 575heal 2sec cast) that dishes out some great damage.  The faster cast and increased damage of deaths coil and other spell increases (warlock and sin pets especially) have me scouring the broker more often in hopes of finding a master or two to spend some plat on.  The new lich spell has me very excited as well, makes it a truely nice present for getting to lvl 50 (too bad they are just now implementing it with the lvl cap increase hehe)</P> <P>The nerfs I see most visibly are </P> <P>1) the importance of concentration slots, which I think will be a nice change and add some decision making to our buff selection</P> <P>2) decrease in noxious debuffs - but our overall dps should be increased as you have shown so in the end we are better off.  Changing our dps in this manner instead of increasing our debuffs gives us a true dps increase, which will keep us up with the warlocks better.</P> <P>3) reduce the amount of pet taps - not too bad because we will still be able to sustain power better than others, especially with the across the board mana regen nerfs</P> <P>4) no more power drain on mark line - I think this will be more useful now.  I rarely used it before except on raid targets because in most group/solo situations the mobs died before they were oop anyways.  In raids, power drain spells draw a ton of aggro, so Id have to be careful with chain casting if I was to land this early on.  Now, this will be useful in all situation - solo, group and raid.  The sta and wis siphon will be good for a hundred or so extra hps and by lowering the mobs wis you are widening the int vs wis gap for everyone in the group/raid which = more dps</P> <P>At work now, so thats all I have off the top of my head.  I look forward to looking over your 1 min cast order some later to see if I can come up with some alterations, but it looks good.</P> <P>Thanks,</P><p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 PM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>A few concerns:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) INT effects the damage you see on a spell when you inspect it. Our DPP and DPS will be relative to how much intel you have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Lich is broken and the proc doesn't work at all atm. Regen works. Proc doesn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our combat rez is actually even better now. It is an IN COMBAT summon-rez. It is supposed to summon their corpse to you and revive them. Currently the summon part is broken, but I was able to cast this rez from about Horrific mark cast range</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stench Pets - I was parsing these guys the other day and they seemed to be putting out about 2k damage over their 30 second lifetime vs level 44-47 mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rats- The infamous rats also seemed to get a boost on damage.   They were unleashing nearly 150 dps in 1-2 minute fights against a level 45^^^ ( The goblin lookouts in LS )</DIV>

[Romka]

It all sounds good... just one moment - Lich doesnt work ATM as it says in description <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> <DIV>A few concerns:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) INT effects the damage you see on a spell when you inspect it. Our DPP and DPS will be relative to how much intel you have.  <FONT color=#66ff00>True, I just used your spell descriptions with damage averaged... your characters intelligence is in the ballpark of what can be reasonably achieved at 50.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Lich is broken and the proc doesn't work at all atm. Regen works. Proc doesn't.  <FONT color=#66ff00>Saw that in one of your earlier posts and noted it, mainly I'm going by spell descriptions since I'm mostly evaluating designed balance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our combat rez is actually even better now. It is an IN COMBAT summon-rez. It is supposed to summon their corpse to you and revive them. Currently the summon part is broken, but I was able to cast this rez from about Horrific mark cast range  <FONT color=#66ff00>Quite nice, quite nice.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stench Pets - I was parsing these guys the other day and they seemed to be putting out about 2k damage over their 30 second lifetime vs level 44-47 mobs.   <FONT color=#66ff00>42 DPS is pretty darn reasonable, thanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Rats- The infamous rats also seemed to get a boost on damage.   They were unleashing nearly 150 dps in 1-2 minute fights against a level 45^^^ ( The goblin lookouts in LS )  <FONT color=#66ff00>Again, pretty darn reasonable.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Seems we're gonna break 500 DPS pretty handily once all the bugs are worked out, hopefully there won't be too many reductions prior to being pushed to live.  Thanks for putting your stuff up, Rizaz... without your posts most of us would have no clue of what's coming down the pipe.<BR>

[Deson]

<div></div>Holy crap! That's absurd! Adding a link to this in my other thread. Still, now we'd have to figure what Sorc's do. Even though they said all dps doesnt have to be direct, I'd figure Sorc's being at the top of their damage scale would have to have something close without their utility. Still though, if Sorc's arent close in thier own personal dps I'll glady shut up about utility since our wow factor would be how fast things can die. Maybe I'm too much a pessimist but, the pet, taps, still having near infinite mana with pet tap, stones and lich...sounds abit too perfect. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[quamdar]

<div></div>"Our combat rez is actually even better now. It is an IN COMBAT summon-rez. It is supposed to summon their corpse to you and revive them. Currently the summon part is broken, but I was able to cast this rez from about Horrific mark cast range" i didn't see that in the description in screenshots maybe you could post an updated one if it is in the description now but that is awesome makes me want these changes even more now even though they are nerfing our group buffs i guess they made up for it in alot of other ways. also i am wondering if the 30 second duration on stench of the grave is a mistake, ghastly stench has a 1 minute duration as do both rat swarm spells. <div></div><p>Message Edited by quamdar on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 PM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

Here's a warlock paper DPS run (done by a warlock as I don't have the patience to figure out another class's timers):<BR><BR><SPAN><U><B>SOKOLOV's AFTER:</B></U><BR>Total Damage: 12715<BR>Time Elapsed: 29.5<BR>Power Consumption: 1385<BR>Power Regened: 5 (ticks) * (25+12+5+7+7) [aww, come on, I know it's 4, but it's .5 seconds! =D]<BR>Actual Power Loss: 1105 [1161 if 4 ticks]<BR>DPS (damage per second): 431.1<BR>PPS (power used per second): 1105/29.5 = 37.5 [1161/29.5 = 39.9 if 4 ticks]<BR>DPP (damage per power): 11.5  [10.9 if 4 ticks]<BR><BR>In the warlock combat system testing forum at <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=51&view=by_date_ascending&page=8" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=51&view=by_date_ascending&page=8</A><BR><BR>Seems against a single target we can outdamage a warlock (in theory).<BR></SPAN> <p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>08-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 AM</span>

[Deson]

I'm comfortable with that-to a point. As if you couldn't tell from prior posts, I'm really afraid of becoming a flavor of the month. In EQ we were lucky we were so hard to master because it made most folks go play wizzies and when Sorc's got their boosts earlier this year that drew all those dregs away as well.  Heck, the only reason I'm not posting links on other class boards for comparable damage estimates is because I dont want to log into 100 new Summoners in freeport tomorrow.  But I digress... Anyhow, factor in their procs and Warlocks still seem to do lower DPS than us unless we're talking AE fests. I get the feeling we're going to be "adjusted" or things aren't what they seem. Still this is definitely a welcome improvement but makes me wonder what mob hp's will look like.In an earlier post( the one about the warlock pets after they released the dps teirs) I mentioned going too far beyond a 400 dps (single target) high end peak would begin to make damage tables absurd and require higher mob healths and fairly close dps teirs to compensate. I'm very curious to how this plays out. <div></div>

[quamdar]

our DPS was 483 theirs was 431, i think that is pretty close especially considering that is us in our element (single target) and them out of theirs (multiple target).  i think if they out did us in both areas that would be overpowering especially considering that that 431 will increase by alot against just 2 targets not to mention 4 or 5 targets.  i could imagine them getting nearly 600-700 DPS in an encounter with 5 targets. just look at the DPS of their devestation posted up further as 67.2 every 49 seconds.  that alone against 5 targets becomes 336 DPS that is a huge chunk of DPS right there alone.  i also think they get several other AE spells that would also increase in DPS by 5 times.  i think considering that it is pretty balanced. also this brings up a question for me, does the lich effect hit only the mob targeted when a AE is casted or all of them? if it is all of them we also would have a nice increase in AE DPS but probably not nearly as much as warlocks. <div></div>

[Handleba]

I have been testing out the combat revamp on test also and I have many spells adept 3 and master that Riz doesn't (probably because my char got copied later),.  We should be doing great damage.  The Grim Terror and the RT master 1 pets own on test, I'll post parses and screens of the spells early next week when I get some more time. <div></div>

[Deson]

<div></div>On the wizzie boards they've attempted to figure out the effect of intel. Looks interesting http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=13966&jump=true <div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class=date_text>08-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 AM</span>

[Deson]

Off topic- I noticed when looking through other class spells that some in the descriptions say they cast the lower level spell. Some Sorc procs come to mind. Wonder if that means they made all spells in a line access the same spell in their database just change the effect as needed. Hope thats the way it works because then mentoring might not have to be so much of a pain.Also has hope for spell line improvements vice the current system of training. <div></div>

[Nefari]

Wow, great job! <div></div>

[Boran]

Getting some good numbers through now, great job. Nice link as well Deson added it below as a clicky <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=13966&jump=true" target=_blank>Click here</a>

[Deson]

Thanks. The forums dont like Firefox and I dont feel like using IE. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote:<div></div>Here's a warlock paper DPS run (done by a warlock as I don't have the patience to figure out another class's timers):<span><u><b>SOKOLOV's AFTER:</b></u>Total Damage: 12715Time Elapsed: 29.5Power Consumption: 1385Power Regened: 5 (ticks) * (25+12+5+7+7) [aww, come on, I know it's 4, but it's .5 seconds! =D]Actual Power Loss: 1105 [1161 if 4 ticks]DPS (damage per second): 431.1PPS (power used per second): 1105/29.5 = 37.5 [1161/29.5 = 39.9 if 4 ticks]DPP (damage per power): 11.5  [10.9 if 4 ticks]In the warlock combat system testing forum at <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=51&view=by_date_ascending&page=8" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=51&view=by_date_ascending&page=8</a>Seems against a single target we can outdamage a warlock (in theory).</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class="date_text">08-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:56 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> I should note there was an oversight in my calculations as pointed out my ILEE, the spell ToS is a long duration DoT that does not get to apply it's full damage.  Considering in its entirely it only does 770 damage it isn't a huge factor. The biggest thing to note in regards to warlock spells is that our power efficiency (DPP) has gone done significantly, whereas in Live we are capable of over 15 DPP.</span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>/snip</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><BR>I should note there was an oversight in my calculations as pointed out my ILEE, the spell ToS is a long duration DoT that does not get to apply it's full damage.  Considering in its entirely it only does 770 damage it isn't a huge factor.<BR><BR>The biggest thing to note in regards to warlock spells is that our power efficiency (DPP) has gone done significantly, whereas in Live we are capable of over 15 DPP.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Mine are a touch inflated as well since I didn't pull the final tics off of Death's Coil, Skinrot and Swarm of Bats... it wasn't really enough damage to sway the numbers all that much but it would have overcomplicated things a bit.  These are just paper parses, so there can be a little fudge in the numbers... especially when trying to add in the swarm pets.  I downplayed the damage done by the rats (and excluded Ghastly Stench entirely) quite a bit to take into account AoE's and those final tics, it should all come out in the wash.</P> <P>I know I wasn't alone in expecting the warlocks to lose their efficiency to bring them more in line with the other mages (not to mention that efficiency also equals utility).  I was kinda surprised that our DPP was increased as much as it was since it always seemed the way we were meant to pay for our pets was with terrible efficiency (by design {see pet buffs draining power} from release).<BR></P>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>And for those that may be interested, I went ahead and ran down the efficiency of that chain:</P> <P>Personal per cast efficiency = 4.9 DPP</P> <P>Total efficiency = <STRONG>12.2 DPP</STRONG></P> <P>None too shabby, as long as the pets and dumbfires stay alive.</P>

[prince_sd]

<DIV>Thorough analysis el chupacabras, great work as always.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This dpp looks awesome. Guess we should do very well despite the mana tap reductions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any clue on how tank taunts are changing ? Since, even with our poor efficiency currently I could easily pull aggro "anytime I wanted":smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>p.s. how did you all find necro masters ? I never ever see a necro master on broker. Is there some trick to how you can spot if a necro master drops on your server</DIV><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class=date_text>08-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 AM</span>

[quamdar]

<div></div><div></div>i only got 2 of mine from the broker(grim terror and revivication) and others were all from guildies or friends that got them to drop and gave them to me or offered them for me to buy first.  i am the only necro in my guild though so that kinda explains why i have so many because any people get are usually offered to me or if they are dropped on a raid i always get them.  just keep checking broker though and you can find them though often they are overpriced in my opinion. also i think i heard one time that they are removing in combat rezz does anyone know if there is any validity to that and if so which ones lost it? <div></div><p>removing it from a few classes i mean not just removing it from the game.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by quamdar on <span class=date_text>08-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

I believe it's Paladin - 45% delayed (by like 0.2 seconds). Necro - 21% Dirge - 15% or something, I'll try to find the post I got this from,. <div></div>

[quamdar]

yeah, i would like to know where you read that because the screenshot of the spell on the compiled spell list post shows it rezzing at 43% health and decreasing attributes by 23% and attack speed by 15% and that is why i bought the master 1 revivication hoping i would have the best rezz in raids or close to it.  if our rezz is that low though then it will be nearly pointless for me to use on raids since we have 3 active pallies that are at raids <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Named]

<P><IMG src="http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1571/eq20000212vx.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P>Please note that this is a screen shot of the APP 1 rez.  I assume that higher versions will rez with more hps.</P> <P>Currently the summon part of the rez is broken. Everything else works, however, and this rez has a casting range of about horrific mark line.</P>

[quamdar]

<div></div><div></div>so the summon can only work over same distance as horrific mark?  that seems stupid to me wish it was alot bigger than that. hopefully that short range is just an effect of the summon not working right. <div></div><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by quamdar on <span class=date_text>08-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>Rez info came from: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=14059 Paladin forums - look for subheading "<font color="red"><b>Elixir of Resuscitation"</b></font> under heading Healing & Rez in the OP: <div align="center"><i><font color="red"><b>Elixir of Resuscitation</b></font> Yes, it's still an in-combat rez. As it stands however the recast has been upped from 15s to 60s. The description does not indicate exactly how it works, but what it does is instantly Ressurect the player to 15%hp/15%mp and then about 0.2s later they are healed to 100%hp, a badly timed AE could technically sneak in and take them out. While it says 'touch range' the range looks exactly the same as before. As a comparison for you all, Dirge rez is now 10%/10% 30s recast and the new necro combat rez is 15%/15% 60s recast so it looks like we got the best one, but dirges can rez twice as often.</i> </div> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>08-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span>

[quamdar]

the picture on handlebars website of master 1 of our rezz is exact same, i hope this changes before it goes live because that is just stupid. <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Inquisitor spot heal:</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.mfia-eng.com/images/b_intolerant_healing_ap1.jpg"></P> <DIV>vs. the necro spot heal:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://eq2necromancer.com/Spell_Shots/47.6_Exchange_Life_App1.JPG"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can out spot heal an evil cleric... even less for me to complain about.</DIV>

[Tallika_Runwithbears]

Note: our heal takes 560<b><font color="#ffff00">HP</font></b> to cast. and Inquisitor needs only 160 <b><font color="#ffff00">POWER</font> </b>to cast their heal.  big difference in my book. 5 or 6 casts before we are needing to hit the lifetaps again. <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>Siphon life costs 98 power and heals the necro to within 25% of that.  I am well aware that this is a health transfer which is what makes it such a great spell for necro's.  Once Lich works properly, it will regen all that self-inflicted damage by recast time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The health cost is part of what makes this spell so good since necro's will be lifetapping for disgusting amounts after revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When will a necro not be using their highest damage DD/Lifetap whenever possible?</DIV>

[prince_sd]

<DIV>I would really like to see these 2 combat changes fixed before they go live. Or else we will again have to wait for a hotfix when necros are evaluated again which may be months or even years :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Lich : lifetap component which gives us health for every disease spell cast.</DIV> <DIV>2. Rez: Summoning corpse part</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyone who is on test server/ beta should bug these two things with emphasis on its importance. hopefully if enough bug reports go in they will take action before it hits live.</DIV>

[Handleba]

Lich has been fixed.  At adept 3 with ~250 int it hits for ~350 and heals for 165.  I've heard at master 1 that it hits for ~450.  With accursed, the extra damage makes each mob take ~1000 dmg.  Its quite nice. <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Handlebars wrote:Lich has been fixed.  At adept 3 with ~250 int it hits for ~350 and heals for 165.  I've heard at master 1 that it hits for ~450.  With accursed, the extra damage makes each mob take ~1000 dmg.  Its quite nice. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I just pee'd my pants a little.</span><div></div>

[Handleba]

You should, it also gives a bonus when you cast skinrot, death's coil, siphon, and many other spells. <div></div>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Handlebars wrote:You should, it also gives a bonus when you cast skinrot, death's coil, siphon, and many other spells. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Does it proc when you cast a disease based spell or it procs every time there is a disease based attack? I mean, when you cast Skinrot for example, does it procs just once (when you land spell) or does it proc every second, when Skinrot makes disease damage?</span><div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>It is fixed on beta, I don't think its fixed on test yet...</DIV>

[quamdar]

"Lich has been fixed.  At adept 3 with ~250 int it hits for ~350 and heals for 165.  I've heard at master 1 that it hits for ~450.  With accursed, the extra damage makes each mob take ~1000 dmg.  Its quite nice." so it hits all mobs that would be hit with accursed cloud for that extra damage?  if so does it also hit all the mobs when you cast torrential plague? <div></div>

[Handleba]

I thought it was fixed on both now. <div></div>

[Deson]

Wizzies did another int parse http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=14172&jump=true <div></div>

[quamdar]

did they fix the summon on the rezz yet or is it still broken? <div></div>

[Named]

Still broken. Wouldn't be suprised if it goes live broken.

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>Bad news, they took away (for all intense purposes) the int modifier on all damaging spells.  Which means that lich hits for less, heals for less and all our spells do considerably less damage.  I am level 50 with master siphon  at around 265 int and it does 500-750 or so and ad III lich hits for 242 per spell and heals for 78.  This is also a big problem when considering growth to level 60.  Since spells do not really scale with level or int anymore, at level 60 these numbers will be the same but mobs will be much much tougher with more hp rendering us much less comparative dps growth.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrGrimm999 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bad news, they took away (for all intense purposes) the int modifier on all damaging spells.  Which means that lich hits for less, heals for less and all our spells do considerably less damage.  I am level 50 with master siphon  at around 265 int and it does 500-750 or so and ad III lich hits for 242 per spell and heals for 78.  This is also a big problem when considering growth to level 60.  Since spells do not really scale with level or int anymore, at level 60 these numbers will be the same but mobs will be much much tougher with more hp rendering us much less comparative dps growth.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>If they leave it that way, it'll effect all mages (and the strength hits hurt all scouts) but due to the nature of summoners, the hit won't be as painful as it would be if we only did personal int modified damage.</P> <P>I'm not that concerned, if it is designed this way, we'll be least effected, therefore it could be seen as a buff, not nerf since our damage reletive to the other mages will go up.</P> <P>It's way too early in this being pushed to test to get worked up about it.</P>

[quamdar]

wow hopefully that was just some stupid dev mistake because if they take away damage bonus for int what incentive do we have to get over 200 int?  this is a very stupid change and hope it goes back to how it was with int effecting damage.  also hope they fix the freaking summon on our rezz i am really looking forward to that and would suck if it didn't go live because they just couldn't get around to it. <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>They seemed to have re adjusted the int scaling thing. Less then it was origionally, but more then it was yesterday.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Well, the root duration has been halfed which drops that utility compared to other mages though this change is giving me a warm feeling:</P> <P><STRONG>Stun, Mesmerize, Stifle, and Charm improvements:<BR></STRONG>  - Stun and Mesmerize spells and arts now have shorter recast timers.<BR>  - Mesmerize spells and arts should now have considerably better durations.<BR><STRONG>  - Charms now affect up to triple-up conned opponents (Heroic), have a chance of periodically being resisted by the target (roughly every 30s), and last between 8 minutes to 15 minutes depending on the charm spell (Troubador charm spells do not last as long).<BR></STRONG>  - Stifles now have shorter reuse times.</P> <DIV>The question is, does this apply to our undead charm as it does for coercers and troubadors?</DIV>

[Named]

<DIV>Yes, it does el. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -- Duration is up to 12 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, this news may destroy your warm feeling and replace it with a cold bitter hatred..... Our stun is now a 3 second cast time with a 6 seconds duration!!! and it still gets resisted nearly 50% of the time at master!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[edit] ps there are no undead in maj dul, so I am going to head out and search for some to test out this now-usefull charm. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 AM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Meh, I've grown so used to not having a stun that I'm pretty numb to the stun nerfing.</P> <P>12 minutes where I can relive the glory days of pets consuming power though, that makes me feel pretty good... especially if those pet concentration buffs bleed over to the controlled mob <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <DIV>Edit:  Just imagine, doing zalak and grabbing one of his pats as a pet... that would be dreamy!</DIV><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>Charm is broken atm... If the mob doesn't resist, it just eats up power and does nothing.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Charm is broken atm... If the mob doesn't resist, it just eats up power and does nothing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Darn, I shoulda known...

[quamdar]

that sucks it is broken, it is gonna suck if this and rezz go live broken which i am starting to think will happen.  this spell just started to look useful with a 12 minute duration even though it will probably not be used much since it can be resisted every 30 seconds and if a triple up breaks charm then we are gonna be dead pretty  fast but i don't know, will have to wiat and see how often they actually resist. i would like to know though how long is the recast on our stun now? <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>3.0 cast time, 6.0 duration, 30 second recast</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<div></div>Are we ever gonna get fixed?  We've lost around 2,500 pts of noxious debuffing, lost our power tap, lost our health buff, lost alot of our noxious buffs, our root duration got halved, the cast of our stun is up by 50% and duration is down 30% (from my original post), charm undead doesn't work, summon corpse doesn't work properly and we have no epic effecting abilities other than damage. <span> The problem is the combat revamp started with claims of fixing the summoners back in live update #3 (the sorcerer live update)... it hit live update #7 and they hadn't fixed us so they said "well, we're gonna fix priests, summoners and enchanters"... then it became "well, we have to fix the whole system" and here we are coming full circle without being fixed in any meaningful way whereas there are some huge changes to most other classes. The p'shawing of the patch message of making swarm pets immune to AoE isn't as big a deal as it seems since so many classes now having dumbfire pets (something that was originally our thing).  The fact that protoflames "taunt" has been reduced is troubling as that implies a pet that isn't a dumbfire but a limited pet... I haven't seen my rats taunt recently.  Not only do more classes get swarm pets but more classes now have controllable pets. What's the story here?  Archheal and combat rez doesn't justify us losing all utility other than pets.  We're six days out from revamp release and there have been no necro improvements on beta yet which leads me to believe we aren't getting any period.  The only benefits I'm seeing is that the "Coil" line has had its cast time reduced by three seconds and it's damage increased by 30%.  What was our main DoT is now a dumbfire.  The bugged pets have been fixed finally but we've also lost what was our saving grace, namely the noxious debuffs (warlocks, the lowest utility mage, can now out debuff us). </span><span>We've been trying to get the devs attention for the last 10 months or so and here we are with very limited functional fixes to the class.  I guess that charm has the potential to be pretty cool but where is the rest of the stuff?  The filler group augmentation "oooh-aaaah" kinda stuff?  I don't feel like the master of the undead with these changes, I feel like a sorcerer should feel... no utility but raw damage. Where are our targetable concentration buffs?  Every other mage gets them, why don't we? Why does our pet take four concentration to buff?  Conjurors get to choose who they use their seed line on, we have our pet berserk buff instead which is vastly inferior (not besmirching the conjurors).  How about that brand line that buffs every resist with additional buffs to all the groups pet vs. our 40ish buff to sta/int?  Where is the bloody parity in utility between the classes?  How about between the mages in general? As it is now, we get archheal, combat rez, FD, the sta/wis tap and terror... the rest of the utility is done better by other mages, many of our other utilities are done better by the other off-class types (pally gets a better rez, bruisers get a better fear, monks and bruisers get a better FD). We were s'posed to be a large part of the reason for combat change and here we are with our pets fixed but the rest of our utility nerfed into the toilet. Edit:  Our efficiency has also been fixed, should been in paragraph #4. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 AM</span>

[quamdar]

lets just hope they are have been working on some necro fixes and will finally release them sometime very soon to beta.  it is rediculous how we still lack our third level 50 spell, snare line of spells, charm undead is broken, and that corpse summon isn't working either.  we are supposed to, when we have tank pet up, be in same tier of DPS and utility as enchanters and right now i really don't see it that way.  i like the changes they have made alot but they need to change a few more things to make it even out a bit.  i think we lack a single target conc buff that alot of other mages get and would like to see one added, maybe that will be the other 50 spell whatever happens though it better happen fast so it can be tested because obviously they have a hard time releasing necro spells that work right away. <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>I put this in another thread regarding the new undead charm, figure I'll keep all my griping consolidated in one thread:</P> <P>Just running the numbers:</P> <UL> <LI>735 power cost for the first minute <LI>539 power cost every minute thereafter <LI>Chance of break every 30 seconds</LI></UL> <P>How are necro's gonna pay for this spell?</P> <UL> <LI>Power tap recovers about 629 power per minute (max) <LI>Power tap drains pet of 1,023 health per minute (max)</LI></UL> <P>Well, I guess we can keep up with those power costs... though there are other problems:</P> <UL> <LI>Power tapping to keep up takes 7.5 seconds per minute (approx. 12.5% total cast time per minute spent tapping) <LI>Gotta keep our pet healed since we're tapping him like crazy, that's 5 seconds per minute to heal 936 damage (approx. 8% total cast time per minute spent healing)</LI></UL> <P>The problem here is:</P> <UL> <LI>Losing 20% of our cast time per minute equates to an approximate loss of 3,762 personal damage and the associated personal lifetapping (not counting dumbfires, etc... just plain personal DoT's and DD's). <LI>To equal that, the charmed pet would have to do around 63 DPS <LI>Using the charm and trying to keep up, we effectively lose all our power regeneration ability.  Necromancers are still pretty innefficient though not as bad as on live. <LI>Fully buffed tank pets are doing around 45 DPS in test, I don't expect a charmed mob to beat that.</LI></UL> <P>Therefore, assuming a charmed mob would do offensively buffed rotting thrall damage, we're talking a loss of 20% personal cast time, charm break risk every 30 seconds, the plain old inconvenience of managing the silly thing,all your associated health/power shifting and <EM>still</EM> doing less damage.</P>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Charm is broken atm... If the mob doesn't resist, it just eats up power and does nothing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I shoulda asked this earlier... did you try charming without having a pet up?

[Mephli]

<P>Nice post as always Chup....</P> <P>I was a little pleased with some earlier changes in the neco spell platter, but as it stands now I'm sure I'll survive......  do I want to starve though?</P> <P> </P> <P>Hmmm...  I guess we'll see.</P> <P> </P> <P>Don't be shy in keeping this thread going.... it's a very goog one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Named]

<DIV>Yes. I tried with and without a pet in multiple zones ( including a t1 zone ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still broken btw.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes. I tried with and without a pet in multiple zones ( including a t1 zone ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still broken btw.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Darn.</P> <P>Well, never let it be said I can't keep my own threads going... so here we go!</P> <P>Spells and spell lines added to "round out" the class:</P> <OL> <LI>Necromantic rune</LI> <LI>Transfer life</LI> <LI>Lifetap</LI> <LI>Clinging darkness</LI> <LI>Fear</LI> <LI>Rotten blast (just an addition out of the 14 level upgrade order)</LI></OL> <P>Numbers 3, 5 and 6 are early inclusions into what are later spell line starts with the rest being brand new spell lines.  Why does this bug me?  Because it's six more spell lines to keep upgraded that for the most part did not round out our class nor improve us vastly.</P> <UL> <LI>#2 and 3?  Sure, those are good lines to add though we should have had those from the start.</LI> <LI>#1 was already included in our regular spell lines, now we have a specific spell line to keep upgraded (our only debuff so it has to be upgraded quite high quite early).</LI> <LI>#4 was just added to give us our snares from the training spells back... how about we just incorporate that spell line into the death's coil line as opposed to having yet another spell line to keep upgraded?  This was a pre-existing ability that has gotten it's own spell line, why?</LI> <LI>#5 is still not a worthwile line as it's very situational, especially considering the masters of fear have one of the worst fear spells.</LI> <LI>#6  is a spell completely out of the normal upgrade order, received at 20 and upgraded at 29 then upgraded at 43... how about we get the "lightning" spells into a normal upgrade path?</LI></UL> <P>The purpose of adding spell lines was s'posed to have to do with rounding out the classes, ours sure don't.  The lifetap was certainly needed at an earlier level and the transfer life is a cool inclusion but really, how do these brand new spell lines round out our abilities?</P> <P>Those six lines are just what's there now, I still firmly believe that we should be getting single target concentration buffs like every other mage and even moreso now that running fully buffed we use four concentration with the changes to the pet stance concentration.</P> <P>See, I can complain about anything!</P> <P>Edit:  I should point out that my complaint isn't with getting spells in general, it has to do with the spells we're getting don't address the core problems with the class, namely utility parity between the mages at all levels and instances of play.</P><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>09-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Ah, warlocks got a version of lich and I've been reading reports of their dumbfire pet, netheros, healing itself.</P> <P>The hits just keep on coming.</P>

[quamdar]

does their lich regen mana or nuke too? <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

It doesn't have that uber 1 power (one power, not 1%) per tic regen lich has but it does have the nuke portion without the persistant health cost (though it will have some persistant power cost in the future I'm sure).

[quamdar]

so they got a buff that increases their damage for no mana cost and no HP cost?  wow the more i hear what other classes got the more it looks like we suck. <div></div>

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>Im not going to lie, it looks pretty bad on beta right now.  There are a lot of things broken and there is no way its going to be even close to complete when it goes live, but they have no choice so come the 13th or whatever, everyone is going to be in "beta" because I am pretty sure they will continue to changes things for weeks/months to come after release.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>Did I forget to mention that our stun is the <EM>only</EM> one with no secondary effect?</DIV>

[Named]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EJdev wrote:<BR>The necromancer line is getting the same charges change. I missed it the first time through.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Conj modrod line has 3 charges. Our rods are getting 3 charges as well. ( /own on )</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

I'll see your rod charges and raise you - Pets in the Undying Adherent line have increased in size. Now we're gettin' uber. <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>rofl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh chup.. lich does regen 1% btw <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Named88 wrote:<div>rofl</div> <div> </div> <div>oh chup.. lich does regen 1% btw <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Never used to (that I noticed), it does now?</span><div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>It does now, and on beta.. Run some tests!</DIV>

[fraelith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Named88 wrote:<BR> <DIV>It does now [Lich regsn 1% power per tick], and on beta.. Run some tests!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>OK 5mins ago (at 12:30 am 9th sept pacific time), I got these results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lich Master 1, level 60 necro raidbuffed, with good food, out of combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Power pool is 4247</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell description says regens 2% of power pool per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Without Lich, power regen was 245/tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Lich, power regen was 331/tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Lich adds 86 regen per tick, which is exactly 2% of my power pool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In combat, I have heard that the regen rate is capped at 75 from all sources. So at level 60, Lich alone would mean that we wouldn't need any other asistance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>Well, that's good news anyways... last time I tested it on live it was nowhere near 1% so that's a little something.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>For grins, I'm gonna do the utility breakdown post again, taking into account revamp since it's only a few days away and we've been nothing but nerfed (with the exception of concentration costs).  Not asking for anyone to be nerfed or anything like that, just asking for the classes to be balanced as per their DPS tiers.  These go up to T5 for the purposes of this comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Roots:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  Quagmire, 2s cast, 6s recast, 50s duration, 9s 35% snare on termination</LI> <LI>Necromancer:  Eternal bindings, 2s cast, 6s recast, 50s duration, 9s fear/35% snare on termination</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Bony grasp:  3s cast, 45s recast, 50s duration, 10m AoE root</LI> <UL> <LI>Cower:  2s cast, 6s recast, 50s duration, 4s fear/35% snare on termination</LI></UL> <LI>Wizard:  Ring of cold:  2s cast, 10s recast, 50s duration, encounter AoE root, 12s 53% snare on termination</LI> <UL> <LI>Frozen prison:  2s cast, 6s recast, 50s duration, 10s 53% snare on termination</LI></UL></UL> <P>Stuns:</P> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  Harden*:  2s cast, 45s recast, 8s duration, 340-415 DD</LI> <UL> <LI>Quake:  2s cast, 20s recast, 1.5s duration, epic effecting, 317-952 AoE DD</LI></UL> <LI>Necromancer:  Convulse*:  2s cast, 45s recast, 8s duration</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Deter*:2s cast, 30s recast, 4s duration, epic effecting, 723-1,204 DD</LI> <UL> <LI>Dark nebula:  3s cast, 9s recast, 2s duration, epic effecting (I think), 665-803 encounter AoE</LI> <LI>Devastation:  4s cast, 3s duration, part of the 50 AoE.</LI></UL> <LI>Wizard:  Paralyze*:  2s cast, 30s recast, 4.5s duration, 713-1,189 DD</LI> <UL> <LI>Aurora:  1.5s cast, 9s recast, 35s duration, stuns the wizard as well</LI> <LI>Ice Comet:  4s cast, 45s recast, 2.5s duration, epic stun, part of the 50 nuke</LI></UL></UL> <P>*  The stun durations and cast times have been changed but the change is the same across the board so essentially the same for comparisons sake.</P> <P>Stifles:</P> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  Shattered earth:  4s cast, 60s recast, 5s duration, encounter AoE stifle, 6 tics 174-213 DoT</LI> <LI>Necromancer:  None</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Vulian interference*:  instant cast, 20s recast, 2.5s duration, epic effecting, 17-29 DD</LI> <LI>Wizard:  Enfeeblement*:  instant cast, 25s recast, 9s duration, epic effecting, 25-41 damage</LI></UL> <P>Interrupts:</P> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  None</LI> <LI>Necromancer:  None</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Vulian interference*:  instant cast, 20s recast, 2.5s duration, epic effecting, 17-29 DD</LI> <LI>Wizard:  Enfeeblement*:  instant cast, 25s recast, 9s duration, epic effecting, 25-41 damage</LI></UL> <P>*  The sorcerer spell is listed twice since it does both</P> <P>Group concentration buff #1:</P> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  Phlogiston:  +262 power, +470 heat, +588 cold</LI> <LI>Necromaner:  Aspect of undead:  +262 power, +470 poison, +588 disease</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Aspect of darkness:  +262 power, +470 disease, +588 poison</LI> <LI>Wizard:  Augmentation:  +262 power, +470 cold, +588 heat</LI></UL> <P>Group concentration buff #2:</P> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  Geotic brand:  Increases mitigation vs. all by 168, pets will get additional magic mitigation but I haven't seen those numbers</LI> <LI>Necromancer:  Teachings of the dead:  +45 stamina, +45 intelligence</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Seal of dark rumination:  +14 subjugation, ordination, disruption, ministration</LI> <LI>Wizard:  Hand of the tyrant:  +27 strength, +27 intelligence (at app1, upgraded it should equal the necro version)</LI></UL> <P>Single target buffs, specifically procs (I'm not going to break down what these all do, just suffice to say they are out there):</P> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  Infernous seed</LI> <LI>Necromancer:  None</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Toxic grasp</LI> <UL> <LI>Vulian gift</LI></UL> <LI>Wizard:  Fiery granduer</LI></UL> <P>Damage shield:</P> <UL> <LI>Conjuror:  Flameshield</LI> <LI>Necromancer:  None</LI> <LI>Warlock:  Nihilism</LI> <LI>Wizard:  Singularity</LI> <UL> <LI>Frostshield</LI></UL></UL> <P>There's some other stuff too but this is the meat of it... once I start adding hate reduction spells and self wards, things just spiral out of control since all that stuff is completely out of my realm as a necromancer (since we get none of those spells, ya'know).</P> <P>I really don't think I need to break down the imbalance of the above to anyone.</P>

[El Chupacabr]

I should point out that the overly-long post above only excludes two necro utility spells, exchange life and revivication whereas I've excluded quite a bit from the other classes as there really is no comparison, especially once I start comparing conji's to necro's. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Oops, left out FD, sacrificial heart and terror, still not much change for the purposes of this post.</DIV><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>09-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:22 PM</span>

[prince_sd]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Oops, left out FD, sacrificial heart and terror, still not much change for the purposes of this post.<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sacrificial hearts can be compared to the mana transfer spell warlocks get. I think its called cannibalize.</P> <P>Terror, FD, revivication are pretty much useless in raids. I see very little utility when compared to warlocks/ wizards to justify putting us at a lower dps level.</P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[quamdar]

yeah, our utility is horrible and i am hoping that is changed when they add our third level 50-60 spell.  hopefully it is something useful not another spell like control undeath that i never see being used solo/grouped/in raid becuase it can break so easily.  we also lack alot of things other classes have like epic stun/stiffle/interrupt.  not only that but we don't even have a stiffle or interrupt at all. <div></div>

[fraelith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> I should point out that the overly-long post above only excludes two necro utility spells, exchange life and revivication whereas I've excluded quite a bit from the other classes as there really is no comparison, especially once I start comparing conji's to necro's. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Oops, left out FD, sacrificial heart and terror, still not much change for the purposes of this post.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <SPAN class=date_text>09-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I suspect Sony will address the imbalance. Conjurors, because of their 2 stuns, stifle and better pet tanking, can still solo blue ^^^ mobs as of last night. I believe they are now the last class left that can do this. It seems very likely they will get that "bad love" soon. 

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> fraelith wrote:<BR><BR>/snip<BR>I suspect Sony will address the imbalance. Conjurors, because of their 2 stuns, stifle and better pet tanking, can still solo blue ^^^ mobs as of last night. I believe they are now the last class left that can do this. It seems very likely they will get that "bad love" soon.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Conjurors have had those abilities since release, why would they change them now?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point of the thread is that our non-pet utility should at least equal a sorcerer since we pay for being lower damage then them by having different pets, not because we have less group utility.  I have no interest in seeing the conji's nerfed and as far as the utility chains go, they shouldn't be.</DIV>

[fraelith]

<span><blockquote><hr>El Chupacabras wrote: <blockquote> <hr> fraelith wrote:/snipI suspect Sony will address the imbalance. Conjurors, because of their 2 stuns, stifle and better pet tanking, can still solo blue ^^^ mobs as of last night. I believe they are now the last class left that can do this. It seems very likely they will get that "bad love" soon.  <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Conjurors have had those abilities since release, why would they change them now?</div> <div> </div> <div>The point of the thread is that our non-pet utility should at least equal a sorcerer since we pay for being lower damage then them by having different pets, not because we have less group utility.  I have no interest in seeing the conji's nerfed and as far as the utility chains go, they shouldn't be.</div><hr></blockquote>Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread. The original post listed a detailed comparison of stuns, stifles etc among the utilities, so I thought the comment was on-topic. I am certainly not <i>asking</i> for nerfage of anyone, just extrapolating what the devs have obviously been trying to do the past few days. Which is to make non-gray ^^^ mobs almost but not quite impossible for any class to solo. </span><div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

Didn't think you were derailing it, I worded it wrong and sorry 'bout that. <div></div>

[quamdar]

finally changed our rod spells wonder how many charges adetp3/master 1 give?  would love to see some screenshots. <strong>Necromancer changes: </strong>- Summoned Hearts now have additional charges based on spell rank. <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>Master gives 4 charges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The heart is 34 power every 4 seconds for 20 seconds. ( 170 total mana gain )</DIV>

[Midgebil]

Thanks for the information and post, El Chup. I don't look much into other classes and it's good to know when we're getting screwed, lol. You mentioned other classes having a pet that could be controlled, is it like our static pets currently? Are they always up? Do they do decent DPS? Can they do any tanking? Was a bit upset to hear this, maybe I just read it wrong.  Also, pretty sad to hear the heart is getting lowered to that much. While it's a bit over powered now, at Master 1 quality at least, 170 still seems kind of low. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>Illusionist have a crappy little permanent pet.</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

The sorcerer dumbfire pets were acting like limited pets with taunt, self heals etc.  They have since been nerfed into the dirt leaving only the illusionists with the doppleganger and the coercers with their charmed pet. <div></div>

[Deson]

So much for one of my true joys in this game-Dumbfires are no longer afftected by group buffs. I'll miss my mini skelly army. I hope they change this for summoners at least. <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>The new rat spell summons dogs.</DIV>

[Deson]

<div></div>Very nice. Seems I misread the update anyhow, says pet buffs not group buffs so in theory  they should still pop as they do now on live-fully buffed with everything on the group. Yay mini skellies!  Did notice the change on defensive stances though. Looking forward to joining beta tomorrow. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class=date_text>09-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>