what makes a necro better than a conjurer?

[Briel]

<DIV>in what way does a necro prove himself to be more effective than a conjurer..</DIV> <DIV>1. do they solo better?</DIV> <DIV>2. do they have nukes?</DIV> <DIV>3. better pets?</DIV> <DIV>and 4. what just overall makes them better?</DIV> <DIV>thanks guys,</DIV> <DIV>Jacques</DIV>

[geckoskin]

<P>1) conjurer pets can take more of a beating, due to the better healing and pet buffs they get. so for a fair fight versus a tough mob, conjurers solo better. versus easier targets, necro pets are plenty tough enough, so our higher damage makes us better soloers. also, summoners don't have to fight fair, vs tough targets we can kite pretty darn effectively. i assume that conjurers can kite about as well as necros, but necros do higher DPS, so when kiting we kill stuff faster.</P> <P>2) conjurers have no nukes, aside from a mediocre AE nuke/snare</P> <P>3) the pets are roughly the same, but they have better pet buffs and pet heal.</P> <P>4) overall conjurers are significantly worse, in my opinion and in the opinion of the conjurers i have talked to. they do less damage, they can't rez, they can't feign death, they have to tap their own life instead of pet's life for mana, they don't get lich form for even juicier mana regen. also, while grouping, you will never really heal your pet, and your pet shouldnt be getting attacked much/any, so conjurers' better pet healing and buffs are mostly meaningless in group scenarios.</P> <p>Message Edited by geckoskin on <span class=date_text>06-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 AM</span>

[Briel]

<DIV>very good reply, i have obtained very much information out of that, i will surely become a necro when i betray from qeynos, besides, i like freeport much more than qeynos..</DIV> <DIV>anyone else that would like to jump on the thread, please do so..</DIV> <DIV>Jacques</DIV>

[Sn]

<P>5 stars on that.</P> <P>kiting and the rez alone with feign death (deathly palor).......used twice today in our group. (thanks Raven)</P> <P> </P> <P>Priceless.</P> <P>Nomicon on Oasis</P>

[Garlin1]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> geckoskin wrote:<BR> <P>1) conjurer pets can take more of a beating, due to the better healing and pet buffs they get. so for a fair fight versus a tough mob, conjurers solo better. versus easier targets, necro pets are plenty tough enough, so our higher damage makes us better soloers. also, summoners don't have to fight fair, vs tough targets we can kite pretty darn effectively. i assume that conjurers can kite about as well as necros, but necros do higher DPS, so when kiting we kill stuff faster. <FONT color=#3333ff>This is true.  They seem to get more spells geared toward pet usage then we do.  The DPS though, in all, is not true.  A conjurer will do more damage then a necro in TOTAL dps.  TOTAL hear meaning DPS done by other members (including pet) in the form of extra damage from buffs. I.E Fire Seed and stuff.  In a group a conjurer will do a bit more damage due to this spell alone.  They can solo better then we can as well due to the heals and extra proc damage.</FONT></P> <P>2) conjurers have no nukes, aside from a mediocre AE nuke/snare. <FONT color=#3333ff>So true.   They are more of a AE class with some DoTs I believe.</FONT></P> <P>3) the pets are roughly the same, but they have better pet buffs and pet heal. <FONT color=#3333ff>Then again they make our pets look like a noob fresh out of the isle of refuge due to their buffs.  Our pets are great don't get me wrong but to stack the damage like they can do we have to stack 4+ pet buffs (rending frenzy, words of the wicked, agitation, Opals are what I use) to get the damage flowing,</FONT></P> <P>4) overall conjurers are significantly worse, in my opinion and in the opinion of the conjurers i have talked to. they do less damage, they can't rez, they can't feign death, they have to tap their own life instead of pet's life for mana, they don't get lich form for even juicier mana regen. also, while grouping, you will never really heal your pet, and your pet shouldnt be getting attacked much/any, so conjurers' better pet healing and buffs are mostly meaningless in group scenarios. <FONT color=#3333ff>I think in comparison we are near the same.  In the long run they will serve the damage out better and perhaps only because of their proc buffs.  We on the other hand do get more utilities spells.  The part about buffs being useless in group scenarios is moot.  Pet buffs = more damage and procs.  If a pet is procing then they are dealing more damage then they normally would.  I'd like to point out also thay necros will deal more damage in a raid enviroment due to DoTs and such then a conj, but then again if a conj is placed in a group with melee their group proc spells will make our damage look like crap.  Just my two cents.  I do like my class but I will in no means what so ever try and glorify it when it really can't be.  I am glad all you guys can kite and stuff but we were not intended to be a kiting class.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by geckoskin on <SPAN class=date_text>06-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Read the blue foo.</DIV>

[MaxLi]

<font color="#3333ff">The DPS though, in all, is not true.  A conjurer will do more damage then a necro in TOTAL dps. <font color="#ffff00">No they don't.  At least not the 2.5 Conjurers in my guild.  Well, sometimes they do (depending on group makeup and some specific mobs that have anti-necro resists), but 3 of 4 times I beat them in DPS.  They beat me 'personally' in D<font color="#ffff00">PS 90% of the time, but my zombie destroys them.  I have nearly a hundred parses to make this claim.</font></font><font color="#ffff00">  I'm not sure why you're getting different results, but ... yeah.</font> </font><div></div>

[Briel]

<P>After learning more about the subclass of conjurer, i have come across the point of confusion, of which can solo better, and which city i like best, unfortunately, only one of these questions has been answered by you fellows, but i am in constant decision of which is cooler, but i like qeynos, thats is why i dislike the idea of existing as a necromancer in freeport, well, i dont know yet, but maybe i will stay as conjurer rather than necromancer, but hey, necromancer, apparently, does better damage, so i still dont know, more answering of the questions will bring me hope, please keep jumping on the thread, i need it big time...</P> <P>Jacques</P>

[Xalmat]

Ultimately, it comes down to which pet you want at level 50 as your tank:A purple monkey which is ugly as hell, or a bigger version of the zombie you get at level 24 that has no combat animation.While ultimately the question "Which is better, Conjuror or Necromancer?" can be debated til the end of time, you can't go wrong with either.<p>Message Edited by Xalmat on <span class=date_text>06-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:32 AM</span>

[Garlin1]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MaxLiao wrote:<BR><FONT color=#3333ff>The DPS though, in all, is not true.  A conjurer will do more damage then a necro in TOTAL dps.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>No they don't.  At least not the 2.5 Conjurers in my guild.  Well, sometimes they do (depending on group makeup and some specific mobs that have anti-necro resists), but 3 of 4 times I beat them in DPS.  They beat me 'personally' in D<FONT color=#ffff00>PS 90% of the time, but my zombie destroys them.  I have nearly a hundred parses to make this claim.</FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>  I'm not sure why you're getting different results, but ... yeah.</FONT><BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Read the whole message plz.  TOTAL dps meaning ALL damage that they DO PLUS the DAMAGE they make others do.   I.E: Buffs that allow others to PROC damage.  Lets say (not sure the damage their buff does) that the buff makes an attack have a 7% chance to deal 150 fire damage.Here is a breakdown.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Full Group:</DIV> <DIV>Warrior</DIV> <DIV>Assassin</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Monk</DIV> <DIV>Conj</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>End of the fight the Conj WOULD of dealt less personal DPS then a Necromancer would of if in the same exact set up.   Here is where the difference is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say the Conj did a total amount of damage WITH pet added into damage cycle of 15k</DIV> <DIV>Lets say ALL the melee did the exact same amount of damage. 20k each. 15k was in skills/melee and 5k of it was from the proc buff the conj gives.  4 melee x 5k = 20k.  We take this 20k from the proc damage and total it into the conjurer's 15k making the conj actual DPS 35k which was 20k more then any of the melee (yes yes this is prob nowhere near what would parse but making a point)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage Dealt:</DIV> <DIV>Melee/Skills = 60k</DIV> <DIV>Proc buff Damage = 20k</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conj Damage:</DIV> <DIV>Spell/Dot/Pet = 15k</DIV> <DIV>TOTAL DPS (Procs added in) = 35k</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conj: 35k Alone</DIV> <DIV>All Melee: 60k combined.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necro = 15k damage</DIV> <DIV>Total Damage = 15k (well less we get that very very rare 1% chance for our lifetap proc to go off)  You do the comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>THESE ARE NOT ACTUAL NUMBERS PARSED IN ANY FIGHT EVER.  THESE ARE FAKE NUMBERS PUT TOGETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOWING DAMAGE VARIATIONS BETWEEN NECROMANCERS AND CONJURERS.  NO CONJUERS WERE HARMED IN THE MAKING OF THIS POST.... SADLY</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Lodor]

<DIV>Necros solo multi mob groups tons better then a conjurer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Watch a conjurer then a necro in a place like the new splitpaw instaces to see how different they really are.</DIV>

[Garlin1]

<DIV>To a degree.  We have our lifetaps which helps.  They have Stoneskin though which drastically blows our ward away (I think its stoneskin or some other buffs that absorbs a few attacks).  Where we strive in healing ourselves to lessen the damage though they strive in dealing out AoE damage to quicken the kill.  We would last longer but they would kill quicker.  Sorta evens itself out.  Lol I know it sounds like I am dissing necros but I'm not.  Just pointing out that we are not so much better as everyone thinks.  There are tons of check and balances that has to be taken into consideration.  You can't just go "Well, we can take on more mobs at once better cause we can heal ourselve!" While this is true we kill a good bit slower then a conj would.  An extra 30 secs can easily equal up around 5k damage to yourself provided you were not stunning, lifetapping, warding, dodging, parrying, etc the group mobs.</DIV>

[Lodor]

<P>Taking on morem obs as a necro has nothing to do with lifetap.</P> <P>Its all about BoL/WoW pet buff that makes them obs all fight the pet instead of you having to tank or root part extra mobs like a conjurer has to.</P>

[Garlin1]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lodor wrote:<BR> <P>Taking on morem obs as a necro has nothing to do with lifetap.</P> <P>Its all about BoL/WoW pet buff that makes them obs all fight the pet instead of you having to tank or root part extra mobs like a conjurer has to.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't use BoL so not true.  I tank the mobs that overflow use use root, terror, and stun.</DIV>

[Briel]

<P>alright, thanks guys, i got my decision picked, though i am prohibiting myself to state the nature of my future subclass, i still embrace your effort to the thread..</P> <P>Jacques</P>

[Lodor]

<DIV>Yeah you might not personaly use BoL/WoW that way but alot of necros do and they have a much easier and safer time fighting in places like the splitpaw zones.</DIV>

[MrGrimm9]

<DIV>Here is the lowdown.  Conjurors are more of a group based class, and they are much better with aoe damage then we are.  We put out more damage on solo mobs.  Think of it as sorta like a wizard warlock.  Wizards do more damage to one mob like warlocks to more damage to groups.  Conjurors also have better group buffs and give physical mitigation to the group as well as more hp and power.  Giga is right about Fire Seed, that is an extremely good buff that makes the group do a lot more damage.  They can solo almost as well as we can but for different reasons, and it depends on what you want to solo.  In a tight space with no room to kite they will have the advantage because their pet/pet buffs own us in every way.  They do have a lifesaving device stoneskin but nowhere near as good as our FD.  Also, it really just depends on what trainer abilities they pick as to if they can kite as well as a necro can.  If they pick all of the right abilities they can kite much better than a necro can because they have a 40% snare that they can cast on the run, yes on the run, 40% snare.  Along with that they can have the snare doll and another 30% snare, so they can kite better if they choose all the right trainer abilities.  But in terms of solitary dps necros can outdamage conjurors due to all of our low casting time spells.  But they do get Fire Seed that makes melee's proc.  So in the end, conjurors are more group based and necros are more solo based but both classes can solo very well and kite very well.  I would almost say at this point that conjorurs are better than us if not for the fact that I love to see my parse much higher than anyone else in dps.</DIV>

[Xalmat]

Well said!

[Briel]

<P>indeed, i am in agreement with you xalmat..</P> <P>Jacques</P>

[geckoskin]

<DIV> <P>1) conjurer pets can take more of a beating, due to the better healing and pet buffs they get. so for a fair fight versus a tough mob, conjurers solo better. versus easier targets, necro pets are plenty tough enough, so our higher damage makes us better soloers. also, summoners don't have to fight fair, vs tough targets we can kite pretty darn effectively. i assume that conjurers can kite about as well as necros, but necros do higher DPS, so when kiting we kill stuff faster. <FONT color=#3333ff>This is true.  They seem to get more spells geared toward pet usage then we do.  The DPS though, in all, is not true.  A conjurer will do more damage then a necro in TOTAL dps.  TOTAL hear meaning DPS done by other members (including pet) in the form of extra damage from buffs. I.E Fire Seed and stuff.  In a group a conjurer will do a bit more damage due to this spell alone.  They can solo better then we can as well due to the heals and extra proc damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>You make a loaded statement. Conjurers can SITUATIONALLY do more damage than a necro, but it is highly based on the group makeup - in a raid, where you can put the conjurer in a melee DPS group, then yeah fire seed is amazing. Or in an XP group that is very melee heavy. But you may be in a group with a tank, 2 healers, and 3 mages and all of a sudden fire seed is only hitting tank and pet, and thus is not adding nearly as much damage - nowhere near enough to bring their DPS to necro levels. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>while soloing, conjurer pets definitely tank better and survive longer, but necros are going to do more damage to the mobs - thus, necros are better for soloing in my opinion, because you will kill more mobs in the same amount of time and gain more XP. you may not be able to fight mobs as tough as a conjurer can, but you will just chainkill easier targets and be better off overall.</FONT></P> <P>4) overall conjurers are significantly worse, in my opinion and in the opinion of the conjurers i have talked to. they do less damage, they can't rez, they can't feign death, they have to tap their own life instead of pet's life for mana, they don't get lich form for even juicier mana regen. also, while grouping, you will never really heal your pet, and your pet shouldnt be getting attacked much/any, so conjurers' better pet healing and buffs are mostly meaningless in group scenarios. <FONT color=#3333ff>I think in comparison we are near the same.  In the long run they will serve the damage out better and perhaps only because of their proc buffs.  We on the other hand do get more utilities spells.  The part about buffs being useless in group scenarios is moot.  Pet buffs = more damage and procs.  If a pet is procing then they are dealing more damage then they normally would.  I'd like to point out also thay necros will deal more damage in a raid enviroment due to DoTs and such then a conj, but then again if a conj is placed in a group with melee their group proc spells will make our damage look like crap.  Just my two cents.  I do like my class but I will in no means what so ever try and glorify it when it really can't be.  I am glad all you guys can kite and stuff but we were not intended to be a kiting class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>keep in mind that conjuror pets do magic damage, and i seem to remember there being more magic resistant/immune raid targets than disease immune. correct me if i am wrong on this, but if true it means there will be more fights that a conjurer pet does practically nothing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>as for pet buffs being useless in group scenarios, they are, for the most part. the defense aspect of the buffs, which is what makes them so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] useful for soloing, is all of a sudden rendered practically worthless. the DPS boost from pet buffs is nice, but its pretty minor in the grand scheme of things - buffing the pets damage or hasting it by another 10% or so is only going to affect its autoattack damage, so you are talking about a fraction of the pet's overall damage, then factor in that the pet itself is only a fraction of the summoner's overall damage. the end result is that pet DPS buffs are a pretty small boost to overall class DPS. fire seed is the most noticable one, and its not even a pet buff, its a group buff that happens to affect the pet.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>i disagree about us not being a kiting class, i think its the main thing summoners have going for us. pets and the swarm DOTs go with kiting like peanut butter goes with jelly. without kiting, we are just a much crappier version of a wizard or warlock. a sorceror AE root effectively tanks any number of mobs perfectly for the entire duration of the spell, which is long - 30+ seconds i believe, and then they can recast it like 10 seconds after it breaks. the rest of the time they can be nuking to their hearts content with no fear of the root breaking. against a single target, between AE root (unbreakable), frozen manacles, and stuns, a sorceror can keep something rooted with almost no risk for very long periods of time. so why play a summoner? our pets are nowhere near as reliable as that. Kiting is what sets us apart from a sorceror when it comes to soloing, and it even has a halfass precedent from necro fear kiting in eq1.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>as for necros being better than conjurers at soloing a group of mobs, it is a very important feature of the class that should not be overlooked. even if you choose to not take advantage of what is likely a bug, it should be factored into decions made by budding summoners. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>for those who have no idea of the bug in question, it seems that casting words of wicked pet buff line actually generates hate for your pet. so you can send pet into a group of mobs, then cast words once or twice, and it should cause the entire group to attack your pet. you can then kill the mobs one at a time while your pet dutifully tanks them all and hopefully doesnt die. you maybe can even cast breath of unearthed or blight and AE the group down, if you cast words enough to keep hate on pet - i havent experimented with this method enough to know what you can get away with. conjurer pet buffs apparently don't have the same effect? or at least, i havent heard anything about it</FONT></P></DIV>

[Lodor]

<DIV>Geckoskin read the description of BoL/WoW and youll see it isnt a bug but intentional.</DIV>

[Gravewolf]

Looking at the spell details... "-Increases Hate Gain of target by 15%" That says nothing about an instant increase in hate, just more hate generated while the buff is active.  The description in the blurb at the top of the spell is somewhat ambiguous, but the detailed description isn't.  Pretty obvious this is a bug and they don't intend a pet buff to also be an AE taunt.  Probably have a 50/50 chance of this being corrected in the combat revamp, but even if it isn't, they likely will get around to it eventually. <div></div>

[Lodor]

<DIV>Its been this way since beta and it was brought up before the game went live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they didnt want it to be the way it is currently they would of changed it before the game went live since SOE always changes things if the "bug" helps instead of hinders the players.</DIV>

[Briel]

<P>of course, thanks guys, another good response, though a bit retinae scanning to observe, i have taken your information under a heavy process of thought</P> <P>Jacques</P>

[hellfire]

<P>dont forget fireseed effects all pets so include the hunters in there and if it is a group encounter and mob dies to fireseed the rest of the group mobs will take  a 250-300  aoe hit.</P> <P>.also  conjs do have a ds  and depending on version and  if  the conj can land one of his fire debuff dots  master flame shield will hit 73  not just on melee but aoe spell damage  dots ect.</P> <P>stoneskin  at adept 1 will block 5 hits  no matter of damage also will drop hate on each hit you take.</P> <P>conj. earth pets attacks are magic based but most mobs are mostly elemental resistant so  he fairs well at dealing damage to most foes.</P> <DIV>we also have great spell for pet basically its salvation for the pet anti death spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>have seen pet grab aggro in raids and he midigates damage better then knights imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as damage wise that of corse depends on type of mob you are fighting.have clocked master  pet as high as 147 dps in raids and adept 3 hunters as high as 159 adept 3 <just scored master hunters so more testing to do></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well there is  some info on some of the differing conj. spells take  the info as you want.</DIV><p>Message Edited by hellfire on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 PM</span>