Necro vs. Conj

[Nodeos]

<DIV>Here are my complaints and praises with our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Recently, I was a key class in our guild raiding. That was, until we acquired a conjuror.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all I provide a ton of hp with my adept3 and Master I buffs. Secondly, I can ward a target group member. Thirdly, when my grim presence is up, it has nice effects for the whole grp. Last but not least, I offer nice disease/poison/magic resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what can conjuror's do?</DIV> <DIV>1. They can provide a ton of hp.</DIV> <DIV>2. They add PHYSICAL MITIGATION.</DIV> <DIV>3. They add arcane resists.</DIV> <DIV>4. They have stoneskin.</DIV> <DIV>5. Ward a target group member.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats screwed about our class? Teachings of the Dead does not stack with Mark of the Miasmic? Why? Because SoE wont fix it.</DIV> <DIV>I have adept3 Techings of the Dead, and Master 1 Mark of the Miasmic. Master 1 Mark of the Miasmic - Useless right now. It is a VERY good buff. And, its broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding Aspect of Undead, I have no complaints. It is a very nice buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why does our Siphon Life @ adept3 do 493dmg? Because it heals us too. This is nice, but it could do more.</DIV> <DIV>Why does Skinrot do 354max dmg @ Master 1? I dont know. The debuff is nice, but only every so often. This nuke should be drastically improved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are mainly Disease buffers. Whats the only disease occasion..Hmm...the every so often Harm Touch...</DIV> <DIV>If i ever see a disease mob in which I am needed...I will faint.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nodeus Velodius</DIV> <DIV>50 Necromancer</DIV> <DIV>< Iniquity ></DIV> <DIV>Oasis</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Nodeos on <SPAN class=date_text>06-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:50 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Nodeos on <SPAN class=date_text>06-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:50 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Nodeos on <span class=date_text>06-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:51 AM</span>

[Necronstreks]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nodeos wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now, what can conjuror's do?</DIV> <DIV>1. They can provide a ton of hp. <FONT color=#ff0000><we could too if our spells weren't borked></FONT></DIV> <DIV>2. They add PHYSICAL MITIGATION. <FONT color=#ff0000><yes, very useful></FONT></DIV> <DIV>3. They add arcane resists. <FONT color=#ff0000><....></FONT></DIV> <DIV>4. They have stoneskin. <FONT color=#ff0000><class defining spell></FONT></DIV> <DIV>5. Ward a target group member. <FONT color=#ff0000><max ward does like 200 hp></FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>6.  Give all Melee DPS a few nasty procs.</P> <P>Having 1 Conjuror in the DPS Melee group (scouts, dps fighters, and maybe a necro) can seriously increase DPS in the raid... They get a spell line called Fire Seed... it works similarly to our Teachings of the Dead... However, while we have a slight chance to proc a ward when struck.... Fire Seed gives everyone in the group (including pets and rats/fish) the chance to proc a 200 pt fire spell... this proc has proven extremely significant compared to Teachings...<BR></P>

[Nodeos]

<P>Yes, I know about their 'fire seed'. About their ward..you said 200hp..it wards for the same amount that ours does. 641 @ adept3 if i remember correctly. It upgrades horribly.</P> <P>As a note, our Conj is not in a scout dps grp. He's in a main tank grp because he adds mitigation.</P>

[Necronstreks]

<P><---Not a Conjuror.</P> <P>I just frequently see the Conjuror put in the Scout/DPS group over the MT group...</P> <P>With limited spots I can see the arguement to put the Conjuror there, but I think the way my guild does it works just fine.  We rarely have more than 1 Conjuror around, so I can see why I'm not fully sure on this one either.  Once again, just getting information from my Conjuror friend.  Just seems to me that the DPS improvement for the conj is much more significant in the group that adds more often.  I have yet to see (primarily because we don't keep a Conj in the MT group) the significance of putting the conjuror there... but that is probably complete ignorance of the class because there aren't that many 40+ around.</P> <P>Are you sure it's an even 641 ward like ours?  Cause my Conjuror pal (Revrick of Befallen if anyone's curious who) says their wards do like 200 damage.... Maybe he was talking about a lower level one... but I'm not sure... so I guess withdraw my previous statement about the wards.</P>

[See]

<P>Speaking of Siphon Life, check out what a Level 49 ^^^ Necro mob can do with it:</P> <P> </P> <P>a Ar'ticae summoner's Siphon Life hits Seeko for 1733 points of disease damage</P> <P>a Ar'ticae summoner heals a Ar'ticae summoner for 1120 hit points</P><p>Message Edited by Seeko on <span class=date_text>06-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 AM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>He is also x4 and ^^ right? =D</DIV>

[Nodeos]

<DIV>Yes, I'm sure. I talked to my Conj friend a while ago, he said it did 626 ward @ Adept 1. Which, is the same as ours. So, it's probaly the same @ Adept3.</DIV>

[Dastion]

<DIV>I'd rather have feign than stoneskin..so no biggy there.  The lack of mitigation and the better increase in dps is great though..I think if ToTD worked more than ONE PERCENT of the time, actually did a lifetap, and wasn't reactive (supposed to be a proc, not when they get hit) then we'd be pretty good.  And of course stacking issues.</DIV>

[Garlin1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nodeos wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here are my complaints and praises with our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Recently, I was a key class in our guild raiding. That was, until we acquired a conjuror.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all I provide a ton of hp with my adept3 and Master I buffs. Secondly, I can ward a target group member. Thirdly, when my grim presence is up, it has nice effects for the whole grp. Last but not least, I offer nice disease/poison/magic resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what can conjuror's do?</DIV> <DIV>1. They can provide a ton of hp.</DIV> <DIV>2. They add PHYSICAL MITIGATION.</DIV> <DIV>3. They add arcane resists.</DIV> <DIV>4. They have stoneskin.</DIV> <DIV>5. Ward a target group member.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats screwed about our class? Teachings of the Dead does not stack with Mark of the Miasmic? Why? Because SoE wont fix it.</DIV> <DIV>I have adept3 Techings of the Dead, and Master 1 Mark of the Miasmic. Master 1 Mark of the Miasmic - Useless right now. It is a VERY good buff. And, its broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding Aspect of Undead, I have no complaints. It is a very nice buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why does our Siphon Life @ adept3 do 493dmg? Because it heals us too. This is nice, but it could do more.</DIV> <DIV>Why does Skinrot do 354max dmg @ Master 1? I dont know. The debuff is nice, but only every so often. This nuke should be drastically improved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are mainly Disease buffers. Whats the only disease occasion..Hmm...the every so often Harm Touch...</DIV> <DIV>If i ever see a disease mob in which I am needed...I will faint.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nodeus Velodius</DIV> <DIV>50 Necromancer</DIV> <DIV>< Iniquity ></DIV> <DIV>Oasis</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Nodeos on <SPAN class=date_text>06-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:50 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Nodeos on <SPAN class=date_text>06-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:50 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Nodeos on <SPAN class=date_text>06-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Mark of the Miasmic is a LOW lvl spell.  You can't expect a grey con spell to be "Awesome" at lvl 50.  It and Teachings are the SAME spell line be happy they even stack the little that they do.  I agree we did get shafted in the department of buffs.</P> <P>Siphon life and skinrot?  Let me get this right.. you are asking for us to have awesome nukes, mixed in with DoTs?  K, next time ya log in remake and this time around pick Warlock and bam you got it covered.  These two spells do great damage at master lvl, skinrot is a very low recast.</P> <P>There are about 3 epic encounters where I am always put into the MT group to buff up disease and poison resistance.  So ya we do get used quite often.</P> <P>All in all your right, we could do with more damage, although look at our big problems like pets, the damage our dots do, the cast timers (In normal groups by the time we drop all our dots the mob is about dead so DPS is low)  We will get our bumps after combat arts/spells are revamped.  Moor stated some classes are getting a big boost while others a small, lets hope we are just one of the big boosts classes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[xAlar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <p>Message Edited by xAlaric on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:18 PM</span>

[Necronstreks]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Garlin1 wrote: <P>There are about 3 epic encounters where I am always put into the MT group to buff up disease and poison resistance.  So ya we do get used quite often.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I count 1 (Ant Epic), maybe 2 (Venekor).  The only reason you'd make MT group is if you don't have the others in the class spread to help.  The Antonica Epic is the only raid that I know of that a necromancer always gets put in the MT group for resists.</P>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>I'm generally in the MT group for hp/power buffs.  If we used guardians for MT's that would probably change but since my guild uses pally MT's redeeming a necro (generally), I stay in the MT group.</P> <P>Necro's generate horrific amounts of hate, dumping 40% of it to a pally via redemption will generate an almost unbreakable agro lock.  Not many guilds use this method but it's a winning combination.</P>

[Necronstreks]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <P>I'm generally in the MT group for hp/power buffs.  If we used guardians for MT's that would probably change but since my guild uses pally MT's redeeming a necro (generally), I stay in the MT group.</P> <P>Necro's generate horrific amounts of hate, dumping 40% of it to a pally via redemption will generate an almost unbreakable agro lock.  Not many guilds use this method but it's a winning combination.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sounds like a winning combo... </P> <P>Thakras (<---crazy leet guardian) is our MT...  He needs no assistance with aggro control on most raids... heh.... but I definately like that idea... a good thing to suggest.</P>

[MaxLi]

<div></div><div></div>I don't really believe that Necros get the shaft in buffs.  Do I wish they could be better?  Heck, yeah!  I also with I could give out 500 DPS, but it's not realistic.  Just like most of the Good / Evil differences, goodies buff up the group and we debuff the target.  I'd rather have DoTs that debuff than some static buffs I throw on the group.  There are two conjurers in my guild and I'm the only necromancer, with rare exception my pet and I always out-DPS them.  I'll let the conj's be in the main tank group if I can have my debuffs and DPS.As I said in another post in this forum ...<hr><blockquote><font size="2">I don't want our [necromancer] DoTs to stack.  First off, I like being the only necromancer in my guild.  Don't give them reason to get more.  <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></font><font size="2">Necromacers rock throughout all the levels, it's a matter of playing the class to it's strengths.  We're not the easiest class to play to our fullest potential and we change drastically throughout the levels, but imagine how those of us who had Rats that stripped the groups debuffs off a mob felt [in our 20s].  Yep, it's fixed now ... as are some other issues, but you younger necros have it easier.  If you can't tough out the class to 50, good.  I like being among the few, not the many.  <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16">The only thing I would wish for necromancers:</font><font size="2">~ </font><font color="#ffff00" size="2">Different pets.</font><font size="2">  Rehashing the Zombie, Shadow, and Skeleton at higher levels shows laziness.  Give us ghosts, wraiths, floating skulls, etc.  Oh, and fix the (lack of) zombie animations.</font><font size="2">~ </font><font color="#ffff00" size="2">A bit more pet DPS.</font><font size="2">  I don't want DPS for me; I love that my DoTs (are supposed to) have debuffs and other effects.  But I'd like a bit more <b>pet</b> DPS.  Honestly, if you parse our DoTs, Pets, and Rats you'll find we do a good deal of damage over time - but it could be a few points better via the pet.</font><font size="2">~ </font><font color="#ffff00" size="2">Fix our debuffs.</font><font size="2">  I have yet to have a Warlock or Scout (poisons) tell me they do more DPS on a raid with me in the raid/group.  When I can drop the mob's [poison] mitigation by almost 2,000 (and disease even more) they should notice it.</font></blockquote><hr><div></div><p>Message Edited by MaxLiao on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 PM</span>

[Sarkoris]

<P>Do Conjurers get better aoe dots that us as I think they are our most useless line. My guild had Master 1 version of Torrential Plague drop in the Free The Froglok instance of CT. It does like 100 points to target and encounter and about another 250 to the target over time. Seeing this is out level 50 be all and end all spell I am sure mobs are quacking in their boots compared to a Ice Comet/Nil Distortion.  A total 350 hp to a target and another 100 to the encounter is a joke at Level 50 - lets be honest.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sark. </P> <P> </P>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sarkoris wrote:<p>Do Conjurers get better aoe dots that us as I think they are our most useless line. My guild had Master 1 version of Torrential Plague drop in the Free The Froglok instance of CT. It does like 100 points to target and encounter and about another 250 to the target over time. Seeing this is out level 50 be all and end all spell I am sure mobs are quacking in their boots compared to a Ice Comet/Nil Distortion.  A total 350 hp to a target and another 100 to the encounter is a joke at Level 50 - lets be honest.</p> <p>Sark. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, conji's have better AoE's then us.  Torrential plague is not our "special" level 50 spell, it's just the level where that one is due for upgrade.  Lich is the necro "be all and end all" spell though I certainly wouldn't contest how horrible it is in comparison to all the other mage 50 spells. Necro's just suck at AoE, the blight line isn't awful but overall we just don't AoE. </span><div></div>

[Garlin1]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <P>I'm generally in the MT group for hp/power buffs.  If we used guardians for MT's that would probably change but since my guild uses pally MT's redeeming a necro (generally), I stay in the MT group.</P> <P>Necro's generate horrific amounts of hate, dumping 40% of it to a pally via redemption will generate an almost unbreakable agro lock.  Not many guilds use this method but it's a winning combination.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>*gonna try and do a few different answers to post in this one post*</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well, I've rarely ever pulled hate off a mob unless I really try (casting Skinrot over and over and over).  Now, I am normally 2nd to go down in the case of a MT dying.  Though, that is an awesome combo there!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are atleast *3* zones a Necro is used for MT group and buffs.  You will know them when ya see em. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is hard to compare spells when a Master is thrown in.  Still the point was, we don't need harder hitting nukes.  If we start to get hard hitting nukes + DoTs we are essentially a Warlock that has a necro pet.  The focus should be on Pet DPS and DoT damage. I'd almost be happy with longer durations and faster cast times on the nukes.  Death's Coil has a crazy cast timer for lousy damage and the debuff on it is not the best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Nodeos]

<DIV>First of all guys, thanks for responding to my thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giga, I'm glad you are actually used in a resist grp/needed in a certain situation. For, I am not. No matter how many masters I have/get, I will never be put in a MT grp. Conj's beat me out of that with their raw mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding where you are used Giga, it all depends on your raiding strategy. For, your guild may do Venekor, etc, diff than Iniquity does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the stupid Miasmic and Teachings of the Dead, yes you are right, why should they stack when they are on the same spell line? I switched to using Earthly Brand in its place about a month ago. Why? because it adds cold mitigation when all the miasmic does is add a measly 30pwr. Earthly Brand too, is on the same spell line, and the int/sta does not stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the dots. Do I like Torrential Plague. Yes, the dmg will be very nice during lvl progression. However, it takes so long to cast our dots in raids that the mob is usually dead by then. (I believe someone already noted this) Accursed Cloud, I had obtained the master awhile ago. It is a decent upgrade. Good during raid situations? Yes, its nice if you can stick it on a main mob while its ticking away on adds. But then again, the mobs are usually dead by the time you cast it if you have a decent amount of dps in your raid. If you want an example of a ****ty dot...look at Death's Coil. I have never upgraded it from Adept 1. I saw the master on the broker a few days ago. Am I going to buy it? No, the only difference is a bit more dmg and it costs 6 more power to cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the pets..I personally like the dmg..Back when I was grping..My pet was doing more dmg than some classes. These specific classes I do not remember. But since I started raiding months ago..., my pet dps has gone down 10fold. So, I do think the pet dps should be increased a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the upcoming combat changes.  They are going to be awesome if you have a ton of masters. I myself have 12 masters, which most I use every single raid. So, If you have high lvl skills, combat changes are going to make us gods. Lets hope atleast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Nodeus</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS. Grats on your wand Giga.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Edit - A Dirge + Warlock = Best combo for Poison resist. However, if you can a warlock + dirge + necro in a grp, you can add an extra 372hp to the grp + Grim Presence poison resist. This is because the warlock's Aspect of Darkness does not give hp. And they dont have a pet that gives resist. So, you must ask the warlock to cancel their Aspect of Darkness so you can run Aspect of Undead adding 372hp.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Disease resist however, is a different story. We buff disease resist up the ****ing cazoo.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Nodeos on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 AM</span>