Some thoughts on necromancer balancing

[El Chupacabr]

<DIV>I already wrote a nice post about this but leave it to the lithium boards to screw things all up, so here's take two.  There are some real balance issues when comparing us to all the other mage classes, we have the lowest utility and don't have the grouping dps to justify it.  I've got some ideas on how to fix things (hopefully I can remember what all I posted originally).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1)  Start the withering affliction line at level 24.5, increase per tic damage by 200%.  </STRONG>While the debuffs on this spell are nice, the damage is absolutely horrid at 52 per tic for the final spell in the line.  The four second cast time is out of line for a spell this weak, give it the boost to make it more worthwhile a cast.  Moving a bit down the spell line with a good damage increase will help with the mid 20's hump all necro's go through in regards to damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>2)  The Blight line needs an improvement.</STRONG>  Worst AoE in the game, even the 50 version.  Increase the two tics of damage by 200%, increase the AoE damage by 100%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>3)  Unliving eyes is a worthless buff.</STRONG>  All other vision buffs give either resists or some cool effect that isn't gained by a "must have" heritage quest.  With the dangers involved in running a concentration buff (area of effect for the puller) for underwater breathing, the very real danger of losing the necro therefore underwater breathing drops and the fact that everyone has an underwater breathing item (which cancel each other out), we should be given some effect that makes this a concentration buff worth using.  If I want to see invis, I use detect obfuscation... making unliving eyes Dead Man Floating lite and taking concentration is just a bad idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>4)  The power drain of the grisly mark line is too low.</STRONG>  14 drained per tic is a pittance at 50, increase the drain by 100% while leaving the received power at its original level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>5)  Mend bones line is too weak.</STRONG>  The heal over time of this line is below par, increase the initial and per tic heal by 75%.  This is a big part of why necro's resort to reverse kiting in the higher levels, we can't keep up with damage done to our pets even if we do nothing but heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>6)  Improve the efficiency of the pestilential blast line.</STRONG>  2:1 damage for power ratio is out to lunch.  I love this spell but please make it 4:1 like every other classes nukes.  I accept that we are inefficient but 2:1 is too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>7)  Breath of the unearthed line?</STRONG> <STRONG> Worst AoE DoT in the game, increase each tic by 175-200%.</STRONG>  52 per tic at level 50?  I also wouldn't be averse to a big boom at spell completion insttead of the increase to DoT... make this worth the four second cast time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Teachings of the dead general overhaul.</STRONG>  Increase the intelligence gained by this spell to be an improvement over mark of the miasmic.  Change the worthless "proc" from 1% when target is hit to 5% when target successfully attacks, decrease the heal by 50-75%, decrease the damage done by 25%.  We get no group proc spells or damage shields, we deserve one cool group spell, let it be a lifetap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>9)  Lich.</STRONG>  This spell really is cool, the regen is nice and the effect is cool... of course, anyone can get items that regen more without the detrimental effects.  Increase the health to power ratio to 2:1 while increasing noxious resists and improving int/sta (or something similar).  This is our level 50 class defining spell and can be overtaken by a single fairly easy to get heritage item.  This spell isn't worthy of being the 50 spell, make it a major self only buff to give it parity with devastation/beguile(I know, broken but you get the idea)/ice comet etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>10)  Fix the pets.  </STRONG>You knew that was coming... increase the assassin pet to have equal raw dps to the rotting thrall while higher dps when buffed by a group, increase the warlock pets damage output to 50% above the current RT since he cannot be effectively group buffed.  The assassin pet should be our alternative pet when going against disease immune mobs therefore should have the dps to make up for our loss of personal dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feel free to add suggestions or disagreements, I'm sure I forgot something from my first post but think this covers it all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit1:  Fixed some numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit2:  <STRONG>11)  Improve the Dark Heart line of spells.</STRONG>  Again, another spell overtaken by a heritage quest.  Give the dark hearts some benefit that makes them worth using over manastones.  I don't want to spend my time "mod-rodding" people but I'd like to be able to have the option of using my power regen items in a group or raid.  I haven't been in a raid yet where anyone wanted my splinters as there isn't enough benefit to using them compared to a manastone.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <SPAN class=date_text>05-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:13 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>Sums it up nicely.</DIV>

[vro]

Only thing I'd like to add is spell duration... i want our dots do last longer than 30 seconds! Everything else seems inline with how i'd like things to go... <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>I knew I forgot stuff...</P> <P><STRONG>12)  Decrease the cast time of the grasping bones line to 2 seconds.</STRONG>  The duration of this stun is not of sufficient length to justify a four second cast time, especially since the spell is designed to allow our pets to reaquire agro... and we can't generally use it for that since once we have agro we more then likely will be interupted during casting, the nature of our avoidance and mitigation means we get one chance at getting this spell off and we usually fail.</P> <P><STRONG>13)  Improve the "stickyness" of the chains of torment line.</STRONG>  Chains breaks if the pet attacks and will break by the second spell we cast.  It holds ok if the mob takes no damage, the first hit and it'll break almost every time.  Due to the nature of pet agro in this game (which I like for the most part) pets cannot be equated to "roots"... we need a good strong root that'll give us a little time to finish off a mob if need be.  I'm not talking killing even level group mobs by rooting and laying all my damage on them, I just want enough time on my root to do the last 20% of a solo mob without it being able to kill me before I kill it.</P> <DIV>Edit:  #13 may be a little much to ask for and I'll live without it... would just be nice to have a little more use for the root then splitting a "pair" of solo mobs.  It's generally better to let the pet take them both anyways since root is such a high agro spell.</DIV><p>Message Edited by El Chupacabras on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:28 PM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

I'll add one more since it was brought up in another thread: <b>14)  Necromancers do not upgrade with their equipment.</b>  Necro's have unlimited power pools and that is their edge.  Power regen items don't give us an edge nor will the upcoming intelligence changes (+25% to 100 personal dps is alot less than +25% to 300 personal dps) but they sure give every other class an edge.  Equipment equality is a huge disparity, especially when it comes to the necro's.  My suggestion is to add some sort of pet focus items that increase pet dps by a certain percentage or grant pets special abilities with those focus items.  All level 50 necro's with their spell upgraded to the same levels will be pretty much the same, from the new level 50 necro to the prismatic necro.  That is a serious discrepency in high end balance and needs to be addressed otherwise you'll see more and more high end necro's falling by the wayside to make room for more sorcerers. <div></div>

[Necronstreks]

<DIV>El pretty much summed it all up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only comment is stacking issues.  Seperate dd, dot, and debuff components so that only the highest debuff overwrites.  There is no reason that DoT damage from the same spells shouldn't stack.  We're all paying the power costs, what makes having two necromancers casting disease over time spells more powerful than two wizards chaining ice comets?  Do we put out more than 6K combined with one spell cast each in under 1m?  Hell no.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand, four warlocks spamming Devastation will do tons of damage, but at least Warlocks get a few instance damage spells they can stack.  We, necromancers, have NONE!!  Not with the new changes to PBlast/Skinrot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my two-cents.  El got everything important, and my only addition would be stacking issues.</DIV>

[Necronstreks]

<DIV>Oh, and there's no reason that our rezz shouldn't be in-combat.  Paladins and Dirges are better rezzers than we are.  And they don't need a silly Shard of Anguish per rezz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that it's use is so limited for the hassle that we need to go through every single day prior to raiding just to make sure you have the ability to rezz people on a wipe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either make our rezz more valuable, or take away the no-rent aspect of the Shards.  They are a complete waste of my time to have to make 20+ of each day I get on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:</DIV> <DIV>Correction, it's Dirges apparently.  Still it's a freaken bard.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Necronstreksis on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:12 PM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>Dirges and Paladins. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And their rezes arent supposed to be in combat. I'm 99% sure they're bugged.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Named88 wrote:<div></div> <div>Dirges and Paladins. :smileywink:</div> <div> </div> <div>And their rezes arent supposed to be in combat. I'm 99% sure they're bugged.</div><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class="date_text">05-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>That was my understanding too.</span><div></div>

[Named]

<DIV>wow, posted this in the wrong thread. My bad. =p</DIV><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[Dastion]

<P>Things I'd add.</P> <P>DoT Duration: Make DoT's last longer, up the power consumption if neccessary.  I'd rather it last twice as long for 2x the power cost than have to recast a 4 second casting time DoT every 24 seconds.  Currently a lot of our DoT's are bugged and drop prior to finishing.  Some stop at 8 seconds, some at 5.</P> <P>Pet Disparity:  Make every pet useful for different situations.  The assassin pet is really cool, but it needs to have it's benefits I'd choose over the warlock for a dps pet.  Currently, with the Warlock's group buff to melee dmg, power, and resistances I'm going to choose him over the assassin unless the assassin has something just as appealing.</P> <P>Zombie Models: Let's get some new models for the tank pets?  How about some of those armored skeletons and such that came into game with bloodlines? A spectre? A vampire?  Somethign undead and cooler than a zombie.  One thing I love about the assassin pet is that it's a humanoid model so he looks really nice while fighting.  Let's have something like this for hte tank pet.</P> <P>Group Stuff:  Definatly need some things that make us a little more group friendly.  This can come in the way of pet buffs or doing the change requested above to Teachings of the Undead and applying a lesser version to mark of hte miasmic.  Maybe change our rather weak ward to work similar to the shaman one where, when it breaks it casts a lifetap.</P>

[HollowMan11]

Agreed.  Especially on the increased damage for the assassin pet.

[DeCapitat]

Very good post, I totally agree with all mentioned issues. Hopefully this will be read by the devs. Sassoria <div></div>

[Dastion]

<DIV>A couple of ideas for making pets better...give them a few special, unique, abilities. I.e.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank pet: Uses intercept on the caster, best defense, weakest dps.  Has a minor taunt ability (which would let him hold aggro as if he was doing the damage of the assassin or Warlock).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassin Pet: Slightly better dps than warlock, Uses "assassin's mark" as an ability. And has attacks which debuff the target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Caster Pet: Second most dps, but most group beneficial, casts Grim Presence on group which is the same as it is now, except adds slight out of combat power regeneration to the group as well (Helps since the Warlock runs out of power more than the other pets).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With those changes we'd have three very useful, and situational pets.  When would you use each pet with these changes?  Well...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank pet: Useful for soloing or picking off adds in groups.  Also good in a group where you're getting hit because of hte intercept.  Best for solo because despite not doing as good of damage as the other two pets he can hold aggro just as well as either of them could and take the hits better to boot.  Also good for if you do pull the aggro off of him (it's a far cry from a real tank's taunt) since he can intervene some of the damage for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassin pet: Pretty much a toss up between whether you want the assassin or the warlock.  The assassin deals just as good damage, and in addition uses the assassin's mark and debuffs to improve damage of his own and the tanks.  Pretty good for a fighter heavy group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlock pet: Slightly worse damage than the assassin (maybe if hte assassin does 30dps he does 25, ect.), but has the buff which increases dps of group's tanks, gives power and resistances, as well as an out of combat power regeneration making him renegerate power faster after a long fight as well as being very helpful to a caster heavy group.</DIV>

[Iucif]

<DIV>Ok..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dust blast..When the 2nd cloud rolls in it should do damage.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There should be an attack that agros the enemy to your pet.. I find myself practically dieing because the creature wont argo to my pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give us a spell so we can raise what we killed.. Make it a limit and raise it every 2-3 levels. Such as Revive the Dead. Cost 100 power. Duration 10 minutes. </DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

Double the duration, double the recast... no thanks.  24 second duration of the DoT's is perfectly fine with me, I'd rather have the opportunity to get another one off on a group mob if resisted to get the debuffs running then have to wait for refresh while my pet does lowered damage since disease isn't completely debuffed.  I just don't see this as a balance problem, more of a wish-list kinda thing which isn't what I was addressing in this thread :smileywink:.

[Named]

<DIV>Doubleing the duration would significantly increase our DPS over sustained fights. I think that this isn't such a bad idea for balance, however I think it is also borderline overpowering. If all your dots now lasted twice as long, you could cast and sustain twice as many. Our over time dps would be insane. This would be a viable option if we were meant to be as dominant over long term damage as Warlocks are dominant over short term damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as EL said, its more of an interesting wishlist idea IMO.</DIV>

[Midgebil]

I agree 100% El. <div></div>

[DarkelfNecro]

<P>Some very good points. If we are going to stay slow-casting DoT mages then our pets definately need a boost, and our buffs need to make enough of a difference that they are desirable in a group. Otherwise we are good raid mages and nothing  else. Why get a necro to grind or do quests/writs etc, when you can get a wizzy/warlock that will kill faster, get more xp in less time, and have just as good of grp buffs.</P>

[El Chupacabr]

I posted a variation of this on the spell and abilities forum... I probably should have included something about priests in the title to get some attention since only one necro post ever has had a dev response :smileywink:.

[Dastion]

<DIV>Read again, I said double the duration and increase the power cost.  I didn't say anything about doubling the recast : )</DIV>

[El Chupacabr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dastion84 wrote:<div>Read again, I said double the duration and increase the power cost.  I didn't say anything about doubling the recast : )</div><hr></blockquote>The recasts are in there for a reason, if the duration was lengthened the recasts would be too... just how it goes.  If they weren't extended then it <i>would</i> be overpowering.</span><div></div>

[Uanelven]

Make it so our damage stacks.  I don't want to be gimped just because a fellow necro joins.   Its just not friendly.  Explore it, balance it but make us stack. <div></div>

[El Chupacabr]

I didn't include necro stacking as that is an overall game mechanic problem, not necro specific (every class is effected by this to some extent with conji's probably being the worst).  They'll have to fix all classes stacking issues to rectify ours.

[Sac_jok]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Hey guys, I have a 7 Mage in FP and thought of making him a Necro (eventually) this thread is great for me so I can see the thoughts on this class from the people that already play with it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Dispite the problems you guys seem to have I still am going to make the Necro, its just something about  being the bad guy I like (obviously since I have a Warlock).</FONT> </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Although I am a Qeynos Warlock</FONT> :smileysad:,<FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2> I am only there to sabotage their little happy communtiy. MUAHAHAHA.</FONT></P>

[El Chupacabr]

You'll find that most of the necro's really like the class, Sac_joker.  There certainly are problems and it takes alot of parsing to get your damage just right but overall it's a pretty cool class.  It's just unfortunate that it takes 'til 45 to get the final true necro spell so it can be a painful trip up the levels.