Just a thought about Necro's grouping and all the complaining...

[Quitar]

Hey all, Just a thought to throw your way. I honestly believe that Sony was aware of the grouping issue with Necro's before the game even came out, as a matter of fact I think they purposely put it in. You're thinking why?... Well look at it more globally than just " My friend and I cant group...blah blah blah..." How much damage do you think a group of 6 necros with 6 rotting thralls can do? Necros could summon their pets faster than the mobs could take them down. Plus with the almost infinite power pool we enjoy the fights may not be pretty at times but the power of grouped Necros cannot be ignored. Look at higher lvl Necros... we get a feign death and a rez? why would we need a priest class? we can heal our pets ourselves or save the power and resummon as they fall. We could take down raid mobs much stronger than a single necro by way of attrition. Once the mob is out of power most of them are pretty much waiting to die. If all our damage spells just stacked...never mind the debuffs in combination with the fact that we have 6 healers/caster and 6 tanks...thats a group of 12 on a group x1 mob. With that thinking what do you think a group of 1 tank/1 healer/4 necros could do? OMG why would there be a need for any other classes? I dont think Sony knows what to do to let more than one necro be fully effective in a group. If they got rid of the so-called bugs and all the dots from all necros in the group would stick...the damage would be insane. At 43 being the lowest level in a raid party of 8 people I am out dpsing assassins 2+lvls higher than me. They are outputting about 110dps and I have been averaging about 140dps with pet. This is an average of 12 raid lvl 40ish epicx3  mobs over the past couple weeks. I throw up all my dots that are not linked regardless of level. I find te grey ones get resisted less for some reason, that gives me about 9-10 dots at lvl 43 including my pets. Now if you have 4 necros all doing roughly the same thats 36-40 dots with one healer and a tank to keep aggro....if they can. Not much is gonna stand up to that.Even if the dots averaged a measly 75 points of damage per....thats 2700-3000 points of damage per tick for the duration of the battle. I think that Sony knows the power of having a group of Necros together and uses this so-called bug to limit the damage output. We get screwed for this but I dont think it will be fixed anytime soon. Bottom line we all understand the problems grouping with other necros....but lets face it, there are reasons. Maho 43Ogre-Necro/Nektulos <div></div>

[Eb0n]

*sigh* I remember pet groups from EQoA... You are right necro's can cast a legion of disposable troops and if our DoTs stacked we would be powerful. To powerful though? Maybe. Honestly though I hate not being able to help other necromancers out by grouping with them. Basicaly as it stands now , two necromancers = 1.8 group memebers. One can DoT, pets attack, and the other necro nukes. But one necromancer can nuke send in pet and STILL resfresh his DoTs just fine. So all we are really gaining by helping each other is the extra pet's DPS. Now what if you have three necromancers? You have roughly 2.5 group members. And in the "end game" raids why would more than 2 necromancers ever be wanted? Kinda sucks that in guilds only one or two necromancers will get those uber loots becuase they were lucky enough to be the first to respond,<span>:smileysad:</span> So SOE either lets our DoTs stack or needs to do something just for end game balance. My idea to prevent Zerging by necromancers is to make it so after a pet falls or is resummoned, all of it's hate transfers to the controling necromancer. This will keep the zerging to a minimum but still make multiple necromancers valid in groups. <div></div>

[Purita]

<DIV>Guys I've figured out how to duo or group 2 necros in a group.  One necro does nothing but weave dots, debuffs, and handles things like roots, stuns ect while the other necro spams DD and HOs.  Just work out who is going to do what before hand and it works ok.  Obviously its not perfect, but the dps isn't too horrible either.  It sure as hell beats trying to cast dots over one another though...gl </DIV>

[Psyrus2]

<P>Quitar...an Ogre Necro!  I love the combo bro, very unique.  You made some very good points.  I can't wait until I hit some higher levels.</P> <P> </P>

[Quitar]

<div></div>Thanks Psyrus2 to-date there are only 4 Ogre Necros on my server the other 3 are mid-to-low 20's. I am a unique breed to say the least <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> it was a long hard road to get here but once I hit 40 I finally felt as if I could call myself a necro and feel like I was contributing to the group. I truly think that the immediate opinion of the first wave of people grinding to 50 was that Necros are truly gimped from their experiences earlier in the game with Necro's in the 20's and 30's. It is only recently that you are seeing more and more raid parties/or xp groups actively searching out for ONE necro for their group. I really hope everyone struggling through the 20-40 levels sticks with it, you will be greatly rewarded. I have a running challenge to any warlocks / assassins, or other supposed dps kings, that I raid with and I have yet to be out dpsed by anyone even a couple levels higher than me. The only ones in my guild that can out dps me is a 49 Monk/ ands a 50 ranger...but I will catch them soon <span>:smileywink:</span>. Just a comment, for some reason beyond our control the developers made Necros late bloomers. I have seen post upon post saying when you hit 35 you are a necro...or when you hit 38 you are a necro..blah blah blah. If you look at the spells you get between 37 and 40.6 its truly gives yo a huge boost in damage output. 37 Plague of Rats (upgrade to rats or dogs) 38 Rotting Thrall (need I say more) 39 Horrific Mark (Decreases stamina, wisdom, and drains power from afflicted enemy. An essence of anguish is granted if the afflicted enemy dies while under the effects of this spell) 39 Words of the Wicked (Grants necromancer's minion a lifetap proc, and increases hate towards the minion) 40 Rendering Frenzy (Grants pet increased damage and grants a special ability to counterattack) 40 Teachings of the undead (Increases the stamina, intelligence and disease resistance of the group. Also grants a proc to the group which has a chance to lifetap on each attack) On a side note. If you want to duo and absolutely destroy mobs a Necro and a Warlock are deadly together. We both have debufs that do not interfere with each other that drops the mobs resistances to poison and disease thus increasing the effects of both types of spells. take care Maho 43 Ogre Necro / Nektulos Server <div></div><p>Message Edited by Quitar on <span class=date_text>05-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 AM</span>

[Named]

<DIV>Well.. On raids I can weave 4 dots, a debuff, Rats, and Siphon Life.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dots: Stench of the grave , Swarm of Bats, Mheno's Desecration, Death's Coil</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuff: Horrific Mark</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can keep all 7 of these spells on the mob for an indefinate ammount of time, provided there is a chanter there and I have breeze.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really have no idea what damage a second Necro is going to throw at the mob outside of Skinrot and Siphon life, which is mediocore dps at best. Maybe they can throw down Accursed Cloud, a whopping 52 dmg every 4 seconds (  13 dps ) and Torrential Plague, ~ 50 dmg every 6 seconds ( 8.3 dps )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So... Your first Necro is putting out an easy 180  + dps, while the second is doing 1/2 of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is even better... The Necro that casts Torrential Plague, Accursed Cloud, and our two nukes will probally burn through mana faster than the one weaving 7 spells.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class=date_text>05-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[xxArcane]

<DIV>DOT's should stack. If you have a group of 6 wizards they can all nuke and never be interupted by eachother. 6 necros can't do jack except thier couple wimply nukes and the pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you fail to realise is that most of our DOT's are no stronger than a wizards nuke, they just take longer to do the damage. My Best DOT at level 47 does about 180 a tick. And does about 5-6 ticks I think.....that is 1200 damage max! A comperable level 47 Wizard can nuke for at least 1200 with a single nuke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if I put 4 DOT's on a mob and cast my nukes I am still no where near doing the same damage as a wizard unless it is a reallllllly long fight and the wizard has run OOP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so as you can see a single necro cannot out DPS a Wizard in a normal fight. And even in a long epic fight he would only start out DPS'ing the wizard when the wizard was OOP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So how exactly would 6 necros be any different than 6 wizards? In a normal fight 6 wizards would kill things way faster than 6 necros.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it all boils down to the necros having an advantage in very long epic fights...but so what?? Is there something wrong with us having an advantage once in a blue moon??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Letting DoT's stack would in no way shape or form be overpowering.</DIV>

[Dastion]

<DIV>On the same token a group of wizards could all group together and, with the right playstyle, unload all their big spells..root...cast their dots..root it till bgi spells are back up..rinse, and repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the one necro DoTing the other HO'ing..that is NOT effective.  HO's are more effective if you work through them with others..not by spamming Arcane Strike or Arcane Storm (and god forbid Insight :p ).  Besides that, why would anyone want a second necro who does nothing but send in his pet and spam nukes when they could have a sorcerer in his spot who is fully effective?</DIV>

[Quitar]

<div></div>What's the difference between 6 Necros and 6 Wizards? If a group of 6 Wizards attack a mob #1 I dont think they can all root the mob, I could be wrong here I will check. Pets block and can gain and maintain aggro by the use of dots as opposed to nukes. #2 If the root fails you start to lose group members, pets can be resummoned indefinately and can take more than one hit from a tough mob. #3 With any challenging mobs you will have 6 wizards out of power running for the hills. Necros can recharge almost indefinately. Why dont you look at more than just damage output, and try to understand the class as a whole. Sure wizards can out nuke you but they also can't recharge themselves efficiently, or should I say not nearly as efficiently as a Necro. They need to sacrifice significant amounts of their own life to regen and I know some of their spells stun them for a few secs while recharging. A necro is a healer (for pet) A necro is an enchanter (power regen) A necro is a tank (pet) A necro is a caster (dots/debuffs) A necro can rez A necro can feign death (then you lose aggro get back up, resummon pet..suck power out/buff pet and you are back in the fight.) ....all wrapped into one, there is no comparison. What can a wizard do, root it and hope it sticks? Then once you start nuking and the root breaks then what? Once a Heoric or Epic mob is close enough to a wizard to hit it....well you got a dead wizard now don't you... Also I am not just talking raid mobs, I am talking about orange/red con heroics...you know the ones where roots usually fail.... I thought these would be obvious, I guess not. Maho 44 Ogre Necro / Nektulos Server <div></div><p>Message Edited by Quitar on <span class=date_text>05-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:49 AM</span>

[El Chupacabr]

<P>Necro's and pets share agro count.  If either a pet drops or one of the necro's get agro, he's dead without a dedicated taunting class.  It may be possible to do this if all the necro's have Tarton's wheels but I see no advantage six necro's would have over six other mages.  Six sorcerers could just chain stun and drop thier nukes, killing the mob lickety split... six necro's would basically equal one group of tanks without the ability to taunt off of someone in trouble.</P> <P>I just don't see the percieved advantage an all necro group would have that justifies not allowing stacking.</P>

[Named]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quitar wrote:<BR> What's the difference between 6 Necros and 6 Wizards?<BR><BR>If a group of 6 Wizards attack a mob<BR>#1 I dont think they can all root the mob, I could be wrong here I will check. Pets block and can gain and maintain aggro by the use of dots as opposed to nukes.<BR><BR>#2 If the root fails you start to lose group members, pets can be resummoned indefinately and can take more than one hit from a tough mob.<BR><BR>#3 With any challenging mobs you will have 6 wizards out of power running for the hills. Necros can recharge almost indefinately.<BR><BR>Why dont you look at more than just damage output, and try to understand the class as a whole. Sure wizards can out nuke you but they also can't recharge themselves efficiently, or should I say not nearly as efficiently as a Necro. They need to sacrifice significant amounts of their own life to regen and I know some of their spells stun them for a few secs while recharging.<BR><BR>A necro is a healer (for pet)<BR>A necro is an enchanter (power regen)<BR>A necro is a tank (pet)<BR>A necro is a caster (dots/debuffs)<BR>A necro can rez<BR>A necro can feign death (then you lose aggro get back up, resummon pet..suck power out/buff pet and you are back in the fight.)<BR><BR>....all wrapped into one, there is no comparison.<BR><BR>What can a wizard do, root it and hope it sticks? Then once you start nuking and the root breaks then what? Once a Heoric or Epic mob is close enough to a wizard to hit it....well you got a dead wizard now don't you...<BR><BR>Also I am not just talking raid mobs, I am talking about orange/red con heroics...you know the ones where roots usually fail....<BR><BR>I thought these would be obvious, I guess not.<BR><BR>Maho 44 Ogre Necro / Nektulos Server<BR> <P>Message Edited by Quitar on <SPAN class=date_text>05-09-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:49 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Wizard root is an UNBREAKABLE AE root that lasts for 30 - 36 seconds. Unbreakable means you have a mob thats standing there getting nuke for 6 wizards for 30 - 36 seconds. If the mob isn't dead by the end of that, then the second wizard can ae root. A group of 3 wizards can keep any non epic mob rooted indefinately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) The root doesn't fail. It can be resisted, however with 6 classes able to cast ae root every 45 seconds, resists are hardly a problem</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) No. 6 Wizards will kill any mob before they run out of power. Sure... Necros can recharge almost indefinately, that hardly matters except in long fights lasting a few minutes or more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with compairing damage output vs the ability to self regen mana has to be put into context. If you assume that Wizard's spells and Necro's spells share the same efficeancy ( Damage Per Power ). Your arguement might be right. The truth is we don't. Wizards nearly double our DPP. We are more efficeant self mana regeners because Wizard's DPP is 2x ours, not because they nuke for 4x us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A necro is a healer... For his pet.. A 122 heal over time ( Adept 1, lvl 50 ) Barely off sets our pet taps, which are presumably our advantage over Wizard's DPP.</DIV> <DIV>A necro is a chanter. I might agree with this, but only due to the fact that every class is basically an enchanter. Half the classes in the game get some form of Mez. Hell... Even Wizards get mez.</DIV> <DIV>A necro is a tank. The pet is. The necro isn't. However I do semi agree with you here.</DIV> <DIV>A necro is a caster. Almost every class can dot and debuff. Therefore every class is a caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necros can rez. So can Dirges and Paladins. Same exact rez as us, except theirs is usable in combat. Why isn't ours?</DIV> <DIV>FD... Our most useful utility spell IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me compair them for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards get an AE root, 30 seconds. At level 50 I know my pet can't tank a named for 30 seconds. So while Wizards are balls out nuking for 30 seconds, we spend half our time stunning the mob, healing our pet and tapping our pet ( which does more damage than our pet heals heal ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Point is 6 wizards would do more damage and take less damage. But hey, wizards don't even compare to the fact that Brawlers and Monks can put out 250 - 300 dps on a Raid mob while I am putting out 150 - 200. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class=date_text>05-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 AM</span>

[Quitar]

Who said I was only talking about the end game? I am talking about levels 10-50 not just 50. At lvl 20 wizzy/warlock roots are not unbreakable to my knowledge. Warlocks get an unbreakable root at 39 or 40 (Bony Grasp) I believe, I assume wizzies get the same near that point. All I am trying to say is that a group of chars that all have pets that can tank to some degree pose a significant challenge to Sony. I never played EQOA but I have heard stories of packs of Necros destroying everything they come across. I believe the people at Sony still do not know how to address this problem so they put these bogus limitations in the game. Yes once you hit the higher levels and wizzies and warlocks start to get nice stuns and roots. Also I cannot comment on what goes on at lvl 50 because I am not there yet but from my experience my adept III RT can tank sufficient in most encounters I venture into. He is not gonna be taking on an Epic x3 encounter anytime I know that. I fully understand in the end game this may not work, but in all other aspects of the game it may. I am talking an inherent advantage of 6 chars with 6 pets over other chars that Sony does not know how to deal with. Maho 44 Ogre Necro / Nektulos Server (Quitar 31 Erudite Wizard/ Nektulos Server) <div></div>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quitar wrote:<BR>Who said I was only talking about the end game?<BR><BR>I am talking about levels 10-50 not just 50. At lvl 20 wizzy/warlock roots are not unbreakable to my knowledge. Warlocks get an unbreakable root at 39 or 40 (Bony Grasp) I believe, I assume wizzies get the same near that point.<BR><BR>All I am trying to say is that a group of chars that all have pets that can tank to some degree pose a significant challenge to Sony. I never played EQOA but I have heard stories of packs of Necros destroying everything they come across. I believe the people at Sony still do not know how to address this problem so they put these bogus limitations in the game.<BR><BR>Yes once you hit the higher levels and wizzies and warlocks start to get nice stuns and roots. Also I cannot comment on what goes on at lvl 50 because I am not there yet but from my experience my adept III RT can tank sufficient in most encounters I venture into. He is not gonna be taking on an Epic x3 encounter anytime I know that.<BR><BR>I fully understand in the end game this may not work, but in all other aspects of the game it may. I am talking an inherent advantage of 6 chars with 6 pets over other chars that Sony does not know how to deal with.<BR><BR>Maho 44 Ogre Necro / Nektulos Server (Quitar 31 Erudite Wizard/ Nektulos Server)<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well I did play EQOA. I still do on occasion. The only thing powerful about Necro's in EQOA were their pets. DOTs in EQOA don't stack for necro's just like in EQ2  . The higher level necro in the group will always override a lower Necro's DOT spell. EQOA necro DD spells are way underpowered too just like here in EQ2. The pets for necro at level 20-60 lifetap in EQOA. Starting at level 44 the pets lifetap and quad hit and also do a harm touch. They use to do a harm touch every 3 minutes but it was nerfed to do a harm touch every 15 minutes recently because Mages(equivalent of Conjurer in EQ2) [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed and griped. Sorta like all the [Removed for Content] whiners we have in EQ2 that got everything nerfed. Yes 4 necro's in a group could destroy just about anything they came up against in EQOA. I don't know if they can anymore I haven't gotten another necro up that high again yet in EQOA.  I do know Necro in EQ2 should have been modeled very close to the Necro from EQOA and EQ. Necro in EQ2 is completely broken atm. It doesn't feel anything like being a Necro.  Conjurers are broken too from what I hear. </P> <P>I don't care anymore though my subscription ends in 3 days. I'll check back in a few months to see if SOE fixes this game to make it fun. This game has went down the crapper since LU #3. I just can't justify paying to  play a game that's still in beta testing.<BR></P>

[xAlar]

<p>Message Edited by xAlaric on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[Nebulari]

<P>If the Necro is a broken class then why are we playing it?</P> <P>I  dont know as much as  any of you guys do about this first off but it is depressing to read about all the imbalances in the game between the mage classes.  I have grouped with wizards before and I know that they are out damaging me.  </P> <P>What is our purpose in a group then?  is that why people do not really group with us?</P>

[Jai1]

I grouped with a wizard and a warlock with a group of no real tank to fight Tundra Jack. The healer ran out of manna after Iceburg and it was down to the casters to take him down. I started chain casting pets but it proved to be a waste of time. Pets just don't last that long against anything that matters. 6 necro's couldn't take T Jack and thats not really a big target. A raid of necros is not what Sony fears. I don't know what there problem is. I keep hoping theres a fix Swarm of Bats isn't it. It doesnt even stick to a few mobs I guess because its piercing. I only play for the end game and my guild has the necro limit of 2. That's fine by me. There aren't really a lot of us around. Kinda like chanters.

[Named]

<P>My guild has a Necro limit of one. :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P>I can see why also. Using my best spells I can usually put out 150 - 230 dps vs a single target raid mob, over the course of a few minutes. Bruisers and Monks often put out 300 - 500 dps vs the same targets. The difference is so insane that there is little reason to have more than one Necro on the raid. We provied medium dps, but our real use is the fact that we debuff nearly 3k noxious resist.</P> <P>Message Edited by Named88 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:18 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 PM</span>

[Nebulari]

<DIV>It is really hard to get into a guild I think as a Necro.  I thought when I started leveling this one that he would be this feared bringer of death.  that is not the case though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the pet is fun and helps to take down things earlier I think than I would as any other mage class.  I mean you can solo but who wants to all the time?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the imbalances with teh Necro are beconing more and more clear to me as I watch Wizards blast away and destroy something in like 2 spells that takes me 10.</DIV>