conjuror dps vs necro dps

[sirmamabe]

Ok, i only changed mains to my conjuror about 2 or 3 months ago.  I will not say that I know everything there is to know about my class, but my guild has a necro that try as I might, I can't seem to match his parse numbers, on a consistent basis.  But then again, though I've progressed beyond the simple button mashing stage, I know i'm no expert.  I have excellent gear, since my guild is quite capable of killing everything in game, though we are still working on the matron.However the necro doesn't have my gear, has not completed his claymore, and still puts up better numbers.  I'm trying to figure out how much of this is me and how much is him.  I expect that if we are in the same group, we should be able to by and large put up identical numbers, but he routinely beats me by about 1 to 2 hundred.   I expect him to beat me when i'm pulling or when i have to do a pet sacrifice/heal, that is just to be expected, but other times I just can't figure it out.I'll see our 2 mage pets get hit by an ae, and my goes poof and his stays up.  Yes I try to use intervention and vehement gem, but as it has been pointed out, gem only works on melee ae's.  I guess what I am trying to figure out, is whether necros just get better dps spells, or are the mobs in KoS more susceptible to poison/disease attacks, since I have seen my mage pet get resisted in labs, where he seems to do ok.   I expect that If I had a ton of experience with this class, I would be seeing less problems, but 1) I could use some definite information, and 2) I would not be upset at advice.  lol, i've improved my dps alot by being willing to say i haven't got a clue and would anybody be willing to give advice.A good case right now, is the matron.  I can't keep a pet alive after the first mob and he is able to keep his pet alive longer and does about twice the dps that I do.  I'm getting really tired of people telling me how good necro's are.<div></div>

[pebyr]

gah! logged into wrong account.  lol.  this was actually from me.  so sorry.  ^_^<div></div>

[Renpatsu]

<P>Hmm, don't really know what to tell you.</P> <P>I do raid with two necros usually and on single targets they're sometimes ahead, but not always - which I would have expected though, since I am using mage pet almost exclusively. Spell quality is pretty much the same for the necros and me.</P> <P>From my experience, optimizing DPS with a conjy is a lot of work really - I can't really tell how much work it is for necros, since I don't play one. Especially Elemental Vestment needs quick decisions on what to cast next so that no proc is wasted - that's at least true for the mage pet, I don't got much experience with scout pet lately :smileyhappy:. E.g. casting two very short cast time spells right after each other usually means, that the proc from the first cast hasn't been used up yet.</P> <P>Well, another key point you already mentioned. Keeping the pet alive at all cost. The more I have to pull the pet back, the more DPS I lose, so Intervention and Vehement are usually used when an AE is expected.</P> <P>What else ? Well, off targeting DoTs and dumbfire pets, especially if there is a group with an epic and lots of heroics and the heroics have to go down first. Coordinating dumbfire pet casts with mob AEs ... but well, as you're working on Matron, I doubt I tell you something new here.</P>

[pebyr]

dont hesitate with the "obvious" stuff, I still find things that are obvious to others that I never knew.  Granted that's getting fewer and fewer, but it happens.<div></div>

[Rassstil]

<DIV>Few hundred DPS zone wide?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have the same gear and pet / spell quality then he should be out DPS'ing you on single targets, while you should be owning him on AE. In the end, it should be pretty even, but if you're losing your pet often etc., then obviously you can't keep up. Do both of you have the same proc gear etc.? That could amount to some serious dps for a necro if he's got 2-3 more of those.</DIV>

[pebyr]

Nah, i have more proc'ing gear.  It appears that its just me.  I was mainly trying to figure out whether necro's have some sort of advantage dps wise since that happens alot between good and evil classes.  Evil ones have more dps and the good ones better defensive buffs.  /shrug  Plus I could see it also being things like mobs in KoS being more resistant to heat and cold, since if i remember right, a lot of mobs in t5 were high resistant to elemental based attacks.Not sure exactly what i'm not doing right.  Heck, I may just be trying to hard to beat his numbers and doing things wrong because of it.  I was just wondering, because i've heard things like necro's do better dps when they're pet dies then conjurors and arch-lich means they have fewer power issues doing so.  I dont know.  Ya its frustrating. <div></div>

[Banditman]

I own our Necro's zone wide.  In a multi target fight I'm way ahead.  In a single target fight I'm slightly behind.This probably has to do with what spells you are casting and when.<div></div>

[Catodon]

Some possibilities:a) Necro might be using defensive stance with his mage pet to help it survive aoes.. in particular the lower level ones at master give the same + hp percentage with less hate gain and int penalty than the t7 ones.  Doesn't work on every mob but I've done it with Corsolander for example.  Same method would work for conjuror pets if you go that route.b) Your overall raid makeup favors disease/poison more than heat/cold? Who is casting debuffs and when, is there anyone doing unusual nox debuffs that aren't balanced by the other types (say that predator aa line with big poison debuff, or lots of shamans/warlocks/sks etc relative to wizards/rangers/etc.?)  c) You say mage pet gets resisted in labs; necro offensive stance gives a lot of +disruption, and stacked with minion's uproar you can get well over the current skill cap with grimmie.  I don't think anything in labs is more resistant to heat/cold than disease/poison, but when I (reasonably well geared but not uber necro) raid that zone mage pet will hit the drakes and other magic resistant critters quite a bit more reliably than I do with personal casting. d) Wizard in your group? Iirc frigid gift procs on any damage spell that isn't heat.. which means necro and his mage pet will get a fair bit of free damage from it while your conj pet won't get any and you will miss some chances if casting heat spells while it is active. <div></div>

[Za]

<DIV>Is necro using a warrior pet with the AA that prevents AoE damage...</DIV> <DIV>Forumn Wisdom (which isn't always that wise) says that the AA that protects from AoE will also send your DPS to the crapper, but I've raided with a couple of other Necros that use it and they do on a regular bases either out DPS me, or at the very least work a whole lot less to do the same damage I do. The pet living really does make a difference.</DIV>

[pebyr]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Catodon wrote:Some possibilities:a) Necro might be using defensive stance with his mage pet to help it survive aoes.. in particular the lower level ones at master give the same + hp percentage with less hate gain and int penalty than the t7 ones.  Doesn't work on every mob but I've done it with Corsolander for example.  Same method would work for conjuror pets if you go that route.b) Your overall raid makeup favors disease/poison more than heat/cold? Who is casting debuffs and when, is there anyone doing unusual nox debuffs that aren't balanced by the other types (say that predator aa line with big poison debuff, or lots of shamans/warlocks/sks etc relative to wizards/rangers/etc.?)  c) You say mage pet gets resisted in labs; necro offensive stance gives a lot of +disruption, and stacked with minion's uproar you can get well over the current skill cap with grimmie.  I don't think anything in labs is more resistant to heat/cold than disease/poison, but when I (reasonably well geared but not uber necro) raid that zone mage pet will hit the drakes and other magic resistant critters quite a bit more reliably than I do with personal casting. d) Wizard in your group? Iirc frigid gift procs on any damage spell that isn't heat.. which means necro and his mage pet will get a fair bit of free damage from it while your conj pet won't get any and you will miss some chances if casting heat spells while it is active<div></div><hr></blockquote>I spent a lot of time puzzling over this, and i realized this was the problem.  Nobody was debuffing for heat.  In fact our only ranger main who ends up playing his brigand more, couldn't understand at first why using this debuffs would make a difference.  /sigh  Oh well now that I know what to look for, I know what to ask for.  lol, half the time we dont even have a ranger in the raid, and sometimes we dont even have any wizards.   So of course my mage pet is resisted quite often, because we always have shamans, brigands and a dirge for hate. I was told that the brigand usually debuffs for cold, which explains so much, I wish I was better at using my scout pet in raids, but frankly I lose him in the confusion and find that quite often he's just standing there.  But I usually do better against the ones with strong ae's, because I will use my scout pet due to its having more hp.   Talk about a bright light switching on in the night.  lol.Lol, at the age of 45, I find that the bright red of the mage pet is much easier to follow in instance raids with large groups of mobs.  But knowing what's going on, means that in deathtoll tonight for instance even with me being the ONLY puller, my zonewide parse was only about 300 below the necro's.  Yes and we had no ranger, so I was doing ALL the pulling.  Of course I concentrated on getting my cold dots and pets in play as fast as possible.<div></div><p>Message Edited by pebyr on <span class=date_text>10-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 PM</span>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>pebyr wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Catodon wrote:Some possibilities:a) Necro might be using defensive stance with his mage pet to help it survive aoes.. in particular the lower level ones at master give the same + hp percentage with less hate gain and int penalty than the t7 ones.  Doesn't work on every mob but I've done it with Corsolander for example.  Same method would work for conjuror pets if you go that route.b) Your overall raid makeup favors disease/poison more than heat/cold? Who is casting debuffs and when, is there anyone doing unusual nox debuffs that aren't balanced by the other types (say that predator aa line with big poison debuff, or lots of shamans/warlocks/sks etc relative to wizards/rangers/etc.?)  c) You say mage pet gets resisted in labs; necro offensive stance gives a lot of +disruption, and stacked with minion's uproar you can get well over the current skill cap with grimmie.  I don't think anything in labs is more resistant to heat/cold than disease/poison, but when I (reasonably well geared but not uber necro) raid that zone mage pet will hit the drakes and other magic resistant critters quite a bit more reliably than I do with personal casting. d) Wizard in your group? Iirc frigid gift procs on any damage spell that isn't heat.. which means necro and his mage pet will get a fair bit of free damage from it while your conj pet won't get any and you will miss some chances if casting heat spells while it is active<div></div><hr></blockquote>I spent a lot of time puzzling over this, and i realized this was the problem.  Nobody was debuffing for heat.  In fact our only ranger main who ends up playing his brigand more, couldn't understand at first why using this debuffs would make a difference.  /sigh  Oh well now that I know what to look for, I know what to ask for.  lol, half the time we dont even have a ranger in the raid, and sometimes we dont even have any wizards.   So of course my mage pet is resisted quite often, because we always have shamans, brigands and a dirge for hate. I was told that the brigand usually debuffs for cold, which explains so much, I wish I was better at using my scout pet in raids, but frankly I lose him in the confusion and find that quite often he's just standing there.  But I usually do better against the ones with strong ae's, because I will use my scout pet due to its having more hp.   Talk about a bright light switching on in the night.  lol.Lol, at the age of 45, I find that the bright red of the mage pet is much easier to follow in instance raids with large groups of mobs.  But knowing what's going on, means that in deathtoll tonight for instance even with me being the ONLY puller, my zonewide parse was only about 300 below the necro's.  Yes and we had no ranger, so I was doing ALL the pulling.  Of course I concentrated on getting my cold dots and pets in play as fast as possible.<div></div><p>Message Edited by pebyr on <span class="date_text">10-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:26 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>My brother played a ranger before he switched to assassin.  That's the only reason I know about their heat debuffs.  Wardens I think also debuff heat a bit.  Of course, another conjuror will help you too with the conj brand proc.Top 5 buffs/debuffs that affect our DPS, pre EOF.  Ranked in order of best to worst:- troubador (of course)- brigand- pet int / cast speed buff- priest classes - mysic (?) and warden (?).  Don't quote me on this..- rangerOther than that, put on as much proc gear as you can find.  And if you haven't already get ACT and run it on your own computer.  It helps so much to have your own timers..</div>

[Renpatsu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>...</BLOCKQUOTE>My brother played a ranger before he switched to assassin.  That's the only reason I know about their heat debuffs.  Wardens I think also debuff heat a bit.  Of course, another conjuror will help you too with the conj brand proc.<BR><BR>Top 5 buffs/debuffs that affect our DPS, pre EOF.  Ranked in order of best to worst:<BR>- troubador (of course)<BR>- brigand<BR>- pet int / cast speed buff<BR>- priest classes - mysic (?) and warden (?).  Don't quote me on this..<BR>- ranger<BR><BR>Other than that, put on as much proc gear as you can find.  And if you haven't already get ACT and run it on your own computer.  It helps so much to have your own timers..<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Warden's do get an elemental debuff (for 1040 at Master I), Mystics don't (STR/STA debuff, damage debuff, attack speed/off skills debuff).</P> <P>Edit: My fault, Mystics do get an elemental debuff (ses Banditman's post below) :smileyhappy:<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Renpatsu on <span class=date_text>10-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:37 AM</span>

[Calain80]

And the Inquisitor has an Debuff of around 630 vs. all at M1 (including Magic, Cold & Heat). <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Renpatsu]

Yes the list is not complete, Swashy debuff affects conjys as well :smileyvery-happy:

[Banditman]

<div><blockquote><hr>Renpatsu wrote:<div></div>Mystics don't (STR/STA debuff, damage debuff, attack speed/off skills debuff).<hr></blockquote>Incorrect.Mystics debuff STA/Poison/Disease/Heat/Cold on an entire encounter with one cast.Decreases STA by 128 and heat, cold, disease and poison by 1088 (at Master I).It's one of the first things I put on a mob when I'm playing my Mystic.</div>

[Renpatsu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>...</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Incorrect.<BR><BR>Mystics debuff STA/Poison/Disease/Heat/Cold on an entire encounter with one cast.<BR><BR>Decreases STA by 128 and heat, cold, disease and poison by 1088 (at Master I).<BR><BR>It's one of the first things I put on a mob when I'm playing my Mystic.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Oh missed that one, thanks for clarification.<BR>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Renpatsu wrote:<div></div>Yes the list is not complete, Swashy debuff affects conjys as well :smileyvery-happy:<hr></blockquote>I meant to put rogue in instead of brigand.  Oops!</div>

[Banditman]

Ok, fine, I'll bite.Here is every debuff that deals with heat, cold and magic.  Remember, a VERY large portion of our spells are actually based on Magic.Values listed are Master I.Convict, Inquisitor:  -634 to all resists.Wail of the Ancients, Mystic:  -1088 to Heat/ColdGlacial Cold, Warden:  -1040 to Heat/ColdRending Icicles, Wizard:  -1104 to Heat/ColdAbolish Hope, Illusionist:  -1120 to Magic/Mental/DivineBreakdown, Coercer:  -1120 to Magic/Mental/DivineMarred Psyche, Coercer:  -1024 to all resists except PhysicalVines, Ranger:  -2080 to HeatRuinous Rake, Brigand:  -1984 to resists except PhysicalSecure, Brigand:  -2080 to ColdDispatch, Brigand:  -3520 to all resistsZander's Choral Rebuff, Bard (both):  -490 to all resists except Physical (Ad 3 value, no Master exists for this spell)Obviously, Conjurors Brand fits here too.  I assume you kinda had that one figured out.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>