Dealing with tanks who can't hold aggro to save...my life

[Tar~Palantir]

<div></div><div>On friday, I dinged lvl 20 conjuror. The first thing I did was adept III my igneous apprentice seeing as I group more often than not.  Well, in my 21st lvl, I was with a 22 shadowknight.  I was also with a healer and we decided to kill those lowbie gnolls by qeynos tower 1 in TS.  Well, I put my fire pet in offensive stance, and get ready.  The tank pulls, then a few secnds later, I send my fire pet in. The tank loses agro within 10 seconds to the pet due to AOE's. I get blamed for not assisting, or its MY FAULT the pet attacks the way it does.  Well PS, when you don't upgrade your AOE taunt past app2, or for that matter even use it, this does happen.</div><div> </div><div>Has anyone else encountered this...where the tank blames you because you went out and dutifully bought an adept III pet...while he is still screwing around with app 3 taunts?</div><p>Message Edited by Tar~Palantir on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:06 PM</span></p>

[big perm]

<div></div><p>I have gotten the blame, and somewhat deserve the blame. I have the master version of that pet, and all my other spells are master, or adept 3. With those buffs, and especially with the pet in the offensive position, he will pull agro every time, no matter what. You can hardly put out that much DPS and expect not to get agro. I pull agro in my 40's now with another master DPS pet, even grouping with true tanks that have good taunts. I either have to put it in the defensive position, send him in later, or pull out another pet.</p><p>I primarily use the DPS pet all buffed up in offense for taking down big numbers of lower mobs quickly. Works good when knocking out simple quests, and for sending him in late in a battle. In a group I send him in late (main mob at half life) to finish the job. Sometimes I pull agro at the very end doing this also, but the mob usually dies running to me after wiping the floor with the pet.</p>

[Zutan]

If you have the "earth pet" on a mob it will taunt like nuts, and its sometimes hard for a player to out taunt an earth pet.  If that pet dies all that "hate" the pet had will now go to you and you will likely die as its almost impossible for the tank to get the hate back fast enough (without an intervene type skill of course).This is common throughout all levels of Conjuror and Necro whether it be my relatively low lvl Conj or several friends that range up into the high 50s.  If they do not use the earth pet (not an option till 22 or so at the earliest) they dont have this issue with hate gain.Best suggestion I can give you is get to the level of the firepet asap and dont use the earth pet in groups.<div></div>

[Im-post]

<div></div>Also rememebr that not all Fighter classes are created equal.  When I play my 30 guardian alt in groups I make sure I tell group mates (wizzies especially) to count to 10 before they unleash their nukes.  That gives me time to run the full gamut of my taunts and make sure I have adequate hate built up.   On my 51 Conj main I tend to hold my pet off for a few seconds to give the Tank the same courtesy.  Ad3 and Master  Fire and Scout Pets can do some awesome dps especially with ad3 and master offensive buffs.  It's all part of learning the class and making sure what the rest of your team is capable of.  I would also recommend when you group to ask the MT if they are sporting ad3 taunts.  It will save ya some debt.

[SilkenMaid]

<div>Also remember once you start using your 'dumbfire' pets you can out damage most classes, especially at adept III and above...so don't be afraid to hold back a little. If you have a weak tank and are doing low level heroics its probably safe to use earth pet in a group. Generally, your pet should back up the main tank and not BE the tank, so air or fire pet can be far more useful for their DPS output. There is a very, VERY good post at top of this forum by Xalmat. I suggest you read it..</div><div> </div><div><strong><em><font color="#ffccff">* Silkwind - Runnyeye *</font></em></strong></div><div><font face="Garamond"><em><strong></strong></em></font> </div><div><font face="Garamond"><em><strong>Suffering from...</strong></em></font></div><div><font face="Garamond"><em><strong>[Signature-Clueless]</strong></em></font></div>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tar~Palantir wrote:<div></div><div>On friday, I dinged lvl 20 conjuror. The first thing I did was adept III my igneous apprentice seeing as I group more often than not.  Well, in my 21st lvl, I was with a 22 shadowknight.  I was also with a healer and we decided to kill those lowbie gnolls by qeynos tower 1 in TS.  Well, I put my fire pet in offensive stance, and get ready.  The tank pulls, then a few secnds later, I send my fire pet in. The tank loses agro within 10 seconds to the pet due to AOE's. I get blamed for not assisting, or its MY FAULT the pet attacks the way it does.  Well PS, when you don't upgrade your AOE taunt past app2, or for that matter even use it, this does happen.</div><div> </div><div>Has anyone else encountered this...where the tank blames you because you went out and dutifully bought an adept III pet...while he is still screwing around with app 3 taunts?</div><p>Message Edited by Tar~Palantir on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:06 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I think both you and him are partly to blame.</p><p>You have to remember that tanking and holding aggro is by far the harderst role in this game.</p>

[Meeb]

<div>Erm no its not tanking is easy in xp groups, raid tanking is hard.</div><div>Every time i roll a new mage i have to go through the teach the tank what the taunt button is for school as most new tanks have spent there time soloing and not it a group roll without fail your tank should be using his taunts as soon as they come up and keep using them throughout the fiight.</div><div>The problem u had is not entirley your fault yes your fire pet puts out a large a amount of damage but in case your tank was a shadow knight and unfortunatly they have a lot of problems holding aggro untill they get to later lvls when there damge is very high so the mobs hate them more than u. As others have said hold back before u start riping 20 sec's should be enough for any tank to go get both taunts in  and some damage alowing them to build up hate if the tank is not taunting enough he will lose aggro if the tanks spells are not of high enough quality he will lose aggro when iu join a group look at the tanks gear and if its not up to the job say sorry and goodbye</div>

[Tar~Palantir]

<div></div>Poochy, I see where you are coming from.  I was at a point where I was not casting more than 1 low dmg DD spell throughout the whole fight(ONE cast of striking earth) and was waiting till the first or even second mob was half dead.  The point of the matter was, no matter how long i waited, I would always get aggro because these tanks never bother to use their AOE taunts.  it is that solo mentality again.

[Jessyme]

<div>I play on both sides of the fence as I have a 56 conjuror (Xyladosia) and a 46 Froggie monk (Quijana), and I can say, unequivocally, that playing a main tank is by far the hardest job out there.  I will also say that if a caster class (conjuror, wizard, warlock, etc) chooses to go bugnuts, there is no tank in the game that will be able to keep agro off of them. </div><div> </div><div>I agree that in your situation, the tank was partially to blame.  App II is pretty sad.  But maybe that is the best he could afford/find.   Many of us have been playing a long time and are used to twinked lowbie characters. For example, even at the earliest levels, my froggie monk had fantastic gear and spells due to my high level character having the plat to outfit her well.  Heck, my Frog has more masters and adept III's then my first main (Xyladosia) does!  I don't think she has had any spell at less then Adept I as soon as she hit a new level.  But it is possible that the fellow you were with was genuinely new to the game, not a twink, and deserves to be cut some slack.  As a new character he might not have the plat to outfit/upgrade much, not to mention that spells are not always available at low levels on broker due to many folks being in high end game, and due to crazy prices on low level adepts nowadays.  When my first character (Xyladosia, Conjuror) began playing, I did not see an adept III until I hit my 40's.  Heck, I remember being thrilled when I finally saved up a whole gold piece *grin*</div><div> </div><div>Also, if monk taunts are anything to judge by, the AOE shadowknight taunt might have a fairly long refresh.  And if he only has one AOE taunt (this is true of monks) then frankly there was pretty much no chance he could hold agro against your Adept III pet, unless he kept tabbing through mobs casting CA's on each one or something similar, and a new tank would not know to do that.</div><div> </div><div>When I join a group with an experienced tank, I always ask them which pet they want me to use. If I am in a new or "learning" group, I make a judgement call based on how the first couple pulls go.  If the tank can't keep agro from my fire pet, then switch to air.  At least then if they lose agro you can root the mob, stoneskin/heal your pet, and probably not die.</div><div> </div><div>It is nice when we get into a group that really works well and allows you to use your abilities/pets to their fullest.  But sometimes you just need to adapt to the group you have or find another.</div><div> </div><div>Xyladosia</div><div>Lost Coast Privateers, Nektulos</div><div> </div>

[Purg]

<div></div><p>i'd say using no stance would be better than defensive as that increases the hate gain.</p><p> </p><p>Just hold of a bit longer, don't use aoes, i tend to wait 3 seconds, 2nd in both dumb pets, during that send in my pet so its a good 5-10seconds depending on mob or tank.</p><p> </p>

[Jgok]

<div></div><p>I also am on both sides of the fence here, with a 59 Conjuror and a 48 Paladin. Both characters have their 'important' spells at Adept 3 or better. For the Conjuror, this is of course pets and pet buffs, while the Paladin has his stances and aggro generation at adept 3 or better.</p><p>Tanking: I can definitely say that single-group tanking on the Paladin is a very easy job, unless my group members are actively TRYING to steal aggro from me. With Adept 3 defensive stance, single-target taunt, AE taunt, shield bash, and Atonement (lower version of Amends, which I get next level), any Paladin should be able to hold aggro over a same-level Mage playing "properly" (i.e. measured DPS, not all-out). I have grouped this Paladin with a level 51 Conjuror using the Adept 3 Aery pet in Master 2 offensive stance, and I did not need to use Atonement to hold aggro, unless the Conjuror cast BP every time it was up. Once Atonement was on the pet, even constant use of BP was not enough for the pet to steal aggro. I'm sure it would be a different story once EV is thrown in there, but BP and EV together is just BEGGING for your pet to get aggro, I don't are how well-set your tank is.</p><p>DPSing: On the Conjuror, I find that most 'average' tanks have trouble holding aggro over the DPS pets, especially Brawlers holding over the Igneous pets (perhaps because a good portion of their aggro comes from melee damage, which is primarily single-target). I've only found one Brawler who could keep aggro on heroic groups against my Igneous pet, but Crusaders and Warriors seem to have less problems with her. Brawlers, on the other hand, tend to have no problem at all holding aggro over the Aery pet, as long as I make absolutely sure the pet is on the same target they are. When I have a Paladin tank, I usually use the Igneous pet, as Amends on her garners that Paladin a LOT of extra aggro.</p><p>One thing I have noticed that is disturbing to me... Most non-raider tanks out there do NOT have Adept 3 taunts, even though holding aggro is their primary role in-game. Most Mages have their primary DPS spells upgraded to at least Adept 3, nearly every 50+ Summoner has Adept 3 pets, but a lot of tanks out there freely admit tht they have no spells higher than Adept 1. The general concensus of tanks that don't raid seems to be that they don't need anything better, and like one person above me said... "I have exp debt that says differently."</p><p>Perhaps it's because my first character was a Summoner, to whom Adept 3 pets are the lifeblood of the class, but I always make sure that every character I play has their primary purpose spells at Adept 3 or better... And because of that, every character I play can do their job, and do it well (well, once I firgure the class out, anyway <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).</p>

[Arody]

<div>if i am XPing im kinda spoiled but i only group with guildies so we only go where we want to go and finish quests on the way....</div><div> </div><div>and myself and our guildies all hunt a lot and raid so we all have mostly master spells in everything if not our guild sage (me) makes them adp3 so that has never really happened to me because we all run very smoothly and no errors because of the amount of DPS we do with the spell lvls we have</div>

[Jeradim]

<div></div>I'm not sure about other tanks but as mentioned it is somewhat tough for monks to hold aggro over multiple mobs.  Part of that is the long recast on the AoE taunt, but I think it is a somewhat weak taunt to begin with.  As with the poster above, my alts have better gear than my mains.  Their spells are not quite as good though my monk has all stances at adept III (tank in offensive mostly, save for the really tough mobs), single target taunt at master I and AoE taunt at master II.  When taking on a group of mobs, even with his taunts at master lvl and using them judiciously, my Fury will pull aggro almost every time when he hits his big AoE nuke (Starburst/Starfire).  Against single targets he is great at holding aggro, mostly due to the spell Dragon Stance which increases hate with every hit (well pretty much...it has a 50% chance to or something like that). So I could definitly see how the fire pet can pull aggro from some tanks.  Again, I'm not too sure on other tank classes, but I presume they follow the pattern whereby some classes excel against single targets and others are more group mob oriented.  I would think certain tank classes (like a pally by the sounds of it) would be good at holding aggro over multiple mobs, and others...not so much.  The nice thing at least is that my monk has a couple rescue type spells which are good for pulling aggro in a pinch.  Those too are inhibited by the recast timer though.

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Meeb wrote:<div>Erm no its not tanking is easy in xp groups, raid tanking is hard.</div><div>Every time i roll a new mage i have to go through the teach the tank what the taunt button is for school as most new tanks have spent there time soloing and not it a group roll without fail your tank should be using his taunts as soon as they come up and keep using them throughout the fiight.</div><div>The problem u had is not entirley your fault yes your fire pet puts out a large a amount of damage but in case your tank was a shadow knight and unfortunatly they have a lot of problems holding aggro untill they get to later lvls when there damge is very high so the mobs hate them more than u. As others have said hold back before u start riping 20 sec's should be enough for any tank to go get both taunts in  and some damage alowing them to build up hate if the tank is not taunting enough he will lose aggro if the tanks spells are not of high enough quality he will lose aggro when iu join a group look at the tanks gear and if its not up to the job say sorry and goodbye</div><hr></blockquote><p>It depends on what class you play. Holding aggro in xp groups can be just as hard if not harder than holding aggro in raids. I never lose aggro on raids, but in xp groups if i get a DMG happy ranger who could care less about aggro then no matter how hard I try I still lose aggro about 40% of the time.</p><p>The reason xp grouping is hard is because I am mostly always in a  group with a ranger or wizard or a something who is nuke happy.</p><p> </p><p>I will say it again. Tanking is currently the hardest role in the game. In fact it is the only role which actually requires alot of skill and luck combined.</p>

[Wulfborne]

<div>I play a Paladin as my main, and have a Conjuror alt, so I also have seen both sides of this situation. Hands down, tanking and holding aggro is extremely hard. It's not hard in the aspect of hitting "taunt"... But tanking a mob is far more involved than just repeatedly mashing that button. Overzealous group members can easily pull aggro off of almost any tank. And lest we forget, all those lovely taunt buttons *are* resistable, and often are. If your tank only has one or two taunts available to him/her, then a resisted taunt means that much longer before they can attempt again to pull it off of you.</div><div> </div><div>When playing my Conjuror, I occasionally pull aggro off of our tank. I obviously am not built for holding said mob's "attention" for very long, so as a rule, we can only be as effective as our MT. I usually throttle back a bit on DPS, maybe switch out pets, and try to help the group find a nice groove. Once we get that established, I slowly edge up a bit to see just how effective I can get without "breaking" the group. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Aggro retention is now a group/raid responsibility, not just the MT's function. Sure the MT is the focus, but he can't do it alone.</div><div> </div><div>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</div><div> </div>

[Ri]

<div></div>Also keep in mind the shadowknight is one of the worst taunters compared to other tanks simply because he gets both a DPS pet as well as the ability to heal himself while draining the enemy. Knowing what your tank can and can't do is a must to succusful grouping.