Immunities, OUCH!

[Twofeets]

Welll, we tried Sunchild for the first time tonight.....100% immune to fire pet100% immune to air pet melee, special attacks did hit though100% immune to earth pet melee100% immune to pyrotechnics100% immune to damage add/damage shield100% immune to fiery annihalionetcetcThe only DPS I had was my Aqueous Swarm, and after LU 19 I wont even have that!Guess Ill resign myself to a 2nd rate crack dealer for these type of fights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(And to those who say  'you cant expect to be top against all mobs', our rangers out DPSd me on 2/3 of the fights, and since they can switch arrows they Never had the immunity issues)<div></div>

[supersupervisor]

<div></div>well, what to do, air pet, blazing, elemental vestement, spam all useless elemental spells u have and do big big big dmg, if that wont work.....i dunno, try meelee it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> goodluck!!

[XtremSummo]

<div></div><div></div><p>As pointed out elsewhere, you could have used:</p><div>Aqueous Swarm line (Cold damage)</div><div>Flash Flood line (Cold damage)</div><div>Air pet CA (Cold damage)</div><div>Frigid Wind (Cold damage)</div><div> </div><div>Shattered Land line (Magic Damage)</div><div>Quake line (Magic Damage)</div><div>Snapping Mandibles line (Magic damage)</div><div>Harden line (Magic Damage)</div><div> </div><div>And rangers do have issues with immunities as a goodly portion of their Combat Abilities are locked to piercing/heat damage including many of their biggest hits and DoTs. Additionally, they have to shell out lots of money to buy high quality arrows of varying kinds rather than using their summoned arrows where they have them - on top of shelling out lots of money on poisons.</div><div> </div><div>It isn't as one-sided as you seem to think.</div><div> </div><div>X</div><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:13 AM</span></p>

[Banditman]

The mark of a truly creative and talented player is the ability to continue to function when the deck is stacked against you.In addition to all of those things listed above, there are also imbued wands which cost zero mana to cast.  They are slow casting and mediocre damage, but again, it's another tool that exists which can enhance your play in difficult situations.  I have Flame, Disease and Divine.  I have yet to encounter a situation where at least ONE of those would not work.<div></div>

[Twofeets]

<span><blockquote><hr>XtremSummons wrote:<p>As pointed out elsewhere, you could have used:</p><div>Aqueous Swarm line (Cold damage)</div><div>Flash Flood line (Cold damage)</div><div>Air pet CA (Cold damage)</div><div>Frigid Wind (Cold damage)</div><div> </div><div>Shattered Land line (Magic Damage)</div><div>Quake line (Magic Damage)</div><div>Snapping Mandibles line (Magic damage)</div><div>Harden line (Magic Damage)</div><div> </div><div>And rangers do have issues with immunities as a goodly portion of their Combat Abilities are locked to piercing/heat damage including many of their biggest hits and DoTs. Additionally, they have to shell out lots of money to buy high quality arrows of varying kinds rather than using their summoned arrows where they have them - on top of shelling out lots of money on poisons.</div><div> </div><div>It isn't as one-sided as you seem to think.</div><div> </div><div>X</div><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I realize there are ups and downs of each class, including rangers.  I am by no means suggesting any class is over powered.  However, the rangers in our guild are consistantly in the top 3 DPSrs on just about every raid.  As a conjuror, I cannot say the same. On some mobs I am at the top, on others I am down with the priests.  What I am concerned about is with LU19, those later encounters will increase even more.I do use....</span><span><div>Aqueous Swarm line (Cold damage)</div><div>Flash Flood line (Cold damage)</div><div>Air pet CA (Cold damage)</div><div>Frigid Wind (Cold damage)</div><div> </div><div>Shattered Land line (Magic Damage)</div><div>Quake line (Magic Damage)</div><div>Snapping Mandibles line (Magic damage)</div><div>Harden line (Magic Damage)However, even with all of them running, I am still in the bottom 1/3 to bottom 1/4 of the DPS of the raid if they are the only damage output I have.Raids are limited to 24 people max, its not like EQ1 where you had 50 of your closest friends.  Each slot is precious, and for a raiding guild it sometimes becomes an issue of simple math. 'what class will give up the most bang for the buck in that spot'.Casual guilds may not understand this, but for a lot of guilds it is a simple fact.  They recruit only certain classes for those very reasons.  While I have no fear of my guild dumping me (I love my guild, they are great people), I do not want my spot to become a burden to them.  Since there are other classes we do not have (Dirge and Brigand come to mind), and since we already have another conjuror, I am simply trying to decide if it will be worth it to continue to play a conjuror on raids post-DPS nerf.</div></span><div></div>

[Banditman]

If you are in the bottom third of your raid DPS running all of those spells you need to get rid of the App2's and get some Adept 3's.How about showing us a few parses?  Perhaps we can ascertain what it is you are doing wrong, because with all of those tools at your disposal there really is no reason you should be falling off the top third of the tree.

[Magu]

Oh noez, you can't hit ONE mob. Big whoop. Most mobs are not immune to all that.<div></div>

[Twofeets]

<div></div>Ok smart@#$, now you're just being plain dumb. Yeah, Im in a T6 raiding guild using app2 spells.  You guessed it.  Bravo!All my spells are adept III or Master I. I wish I had the parsers, we have a templar who runs them for most fights.  I do watch my own damage to see what is resisted and I respond by trying new tactics.  We run a VERY high DPS raid, usually 2-3 'tanks', 1 templar, 1 shammy, 3 furies, and nearly all the rest of the raid is some form of DPS. Perhaps being in a guild which is so DPS oriented may not be the norm, I dont know, but that doesnt change the results. People claim we are massive DPS, and yes, in some fights we are (speciically a mob with NO AE and not immune to our air pet or fire).  All people seem to remember is us hitting 700-900 DPS in these fights.What Im seeing, especially in Ahken Aten, the harder mobs from the SC raid zone, and other such areas are more and more mobs with strong AEs and resistances.  This will make our dumbfire pets useless (especially with their long recast times).  If the mob is not immune to fire I can use my fire pet, its not that hard to pull him back when he gets close, but against mobs which we mez or are immune to fire, Im really very limited.Because we are a small guild, we rely very heavily on AE mez (see other threads), so AE's simply are not an option on many of our fights.  With no AE's, no fire pet, soon to be no swarm pet, etc etc, Im simply [Removed for Content].(And before some 'smarter than thou' type starts bashing my guild, we've done most of the T6 raids with 3 groups or less.  We've only been around since November, so we're still growing, and we tend to by picky on who we take (due more to personality than to any sense of uberness).<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:If you are in the bottom third of your raid DPS running all of those spells you need to get rid of the App2's and get some Adept 3's.How about showing us a few parses?  Perhaps we can ascertain what it is you are doing wrong, because with all of those tools at your disposal there really is no reason you should be falling off the top third of the tree.<hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Twofeets on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:48 AM</span></p>

[XtremSummo]

<div>I'd agree that the dumbfire pet change that's on test would indeed be a bad one.</div><div> </div><div>But what you're saying is that because you're in a guild that selects really hard on DPS alone, which also operates a strong AoE mezzing policy, you're unable to contribute much. That's fair do's I suppose, but as you also say that affects very few players. There's plenty of guilds out there who do raids without mezzing as was pointed out in the recent thread. There are only very, very few situations where AoE mezzing is necessary. AoE bans also reduce damage on a bunch of other classes - especially when linked with immunities on raid mobs. It's really not particularly good tactics.</div><div> </div><div>I'm in a small guild too and we manage our raids without AoE mezzing on the whole. We also adjust our raid tactics based upon who is at the raid... rather than trying to use the same tactics no matter who is there. When we have used mezzes in the past, we've pulled the mobs we want to fight back out of AoE range to maximise our effectiveness etc etc...</div><div> </div><div>Perhaps the guild needs to change its approach to raids a little in order to get the best out of its people. It's certainly a little odd that a small guild would deselect people when they're available. Worst comes to the worst though, you don't get to take part in those raids where all of your major elements are disabled... but there's still plenty of other raids where they're not. If your guild is refusing to let you take part in raids that you'd like to do for drops or quest advancement... then I'd honestly change guilds.</div><div> </div><div>X</div><div> </div>

[Twofeets]

Heya Xtrem,I always welcome your post, Ive learned a lot from them.My guild wont 'boot' me  by any means, we're a pretty close knitt group.  However, Ive been playing MMRPGs since the first NWN (the AOL version).  Through NWN, Dark Sun Online, Gemstone III, EQ, UO, DAOC, and now EQ2 Ive always tried to make the most of my class, not so much in terms of gear, but in my ability to adapt and play to my best.The issue here is with the incoming changes, it may be simply easier to start a new toon that is more compatible with the guilds tactics than to try to get the guild to work around mine.What's frusterating it to see so people scream nerf! after so much effort has been put into the class.<div></div>

[GSOO]

<div></div>Well this is the reason to have a hot key to switch to posion/disease/divine damage...ie the wands. Can do a nuke for about 500 at tier 6. Just a a note many classes are obsoleted on attacks. Necros and Warlocks are just about useless on Meathooks. He completlely immune against posion. The mobs that certain people are not needed or needed in a different role is not a real bad thing, because you will be needed the next mob.

[Banditman]

I still believe the responsibility rests solely on the shoulders of the player to make himself useful.  Conjurors are simply far too flexible for someone to start concerning themselves with how useful they are.I've done every fight in Court of Al'Afaz with the exception of Black Queen and Sunchild, and I've never felt that I was unable to contribute meaningfully to the raid.  Our next trip into Gates should take us into Priestess Court, and I've felt wholly useful and necessary thus far.There are times when I actually feel sorry for our Warlock and Necro.  There are most certainly fights where his contributions are super minimal.I feel very fortunate to have so many different damage types with which to do my job.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Twofeets wrote:Welll, we tried Sunchild for the first time tonight.....100% immune to fire pet100% immune to air pet melee, special attacks did hit though100% immune to earth pet melee100% immune to pyrotechnics100% immune to damage add/damage shield100% immune to fiery annihalionetcetcThe only DPS I had was my Aqueous Swarm, and after LU 19 I wont even have that!Guess Ill resign myself to a 2nd rate crack dealer for these type of fights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(And to those who say  'you cant expect to be top against all mobs', our rangers out DPSd me on 2/3 of the fights, and since they can switch arrows they Never had the immunity issues)<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're not supposed to be top DPS on any fights btw.And well, use non-crush and heat damage attacks, if something is immune, deal with it by doing something else. There are a lot of mobs that are totally immune to enchanters, you live with it. You deal with the issues. Btw go play a wizard, and do T5 raids, then come back and say, wow, now that's truley harsh immunities.

[Banditman]

<div></div><div></div>BTW - on the issue of second rate crack dealer . . . we actually have quite good mana regen abilities.If you give each player in your group a Shard, and Sacrifice a pet once every two minutes:Sac (300) + 2 x Shard (136) = 572 Mana every two minutes.Broken down for comparison, thats 29 mana per tick, all of it outside the existing cap on Flowing Thought / In - Combat Power regen.  Which is to say, your regen stacks with EVERYTHING.Wow.Edit:  Math error.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:17 PM</span></p>

[salerene]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<div></div><div></div>BTW - on the issue of second rate crack dealer . . . we actually have quite good mana regen abilities.If you give each player in your group a Shard, and Sacrifice a pet once every two minutes:Sac (300) + 2 x Shard (136) = 572 Mana every two minutes.Broken down for comparison, thats 29 mana per tick, all of it outside the existing cap on Flowing Thought / In - Combat Power regen.  Which is to say, your regen stacks with EVERYTHING.Wow.Edit:  Math error.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>not to sound negitive banditman, but how long will that last? I've been here since beta and so far it seems everytime our characters get ahead SOE pushes us backwards. After awhile that gets frustrating.

[Xalmat]

Could get a frost imbued wand and just chain click it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Banditman]

My point was not that we should degrade ourselves to the point of simply being a mana battery.My point was that if there were a fight where our DPS was simply not happening, for instance, a mob that was Fire, Cold, Magic and Slash immune, we STILL have the ability to contribute meaningfully to the raid.Conjurors are FAR too flexible for me to feel useless on any fight.  I simply have to use everything in my power.