solo heroics conj/necro

[Klu]

I know their quite the same with differences being between resists, stoneskin, FD, rez, fire seed etc etc. But from what I have seen conjurors pets tank much better than a necros due to buffs, if this is indeed the case how big a difference does this make when say soloing a heroic encounter with a conj vs necro. Does the necros somewhat better single target dd make up for the pets lack of tankage? Are there encounters a conjuror can solo and not a necro or vice versa? I havn't had much success kiting with my necro and prefer straight up pet tanking while soloing and wondering if a conjuror wouldnt be a better choice for myself before I invest any more time/money into my alt necro. So far I'v been weighing the differences and have come up with I like qeynos better than freeport, I like the new necro pet graphics quite a bit, new conjuror pet graphics dont look very appealing on some, Lich/FD is always a +, yet I find it easier and slightly prefer roleplaying a good character than an evil one. So my decision basicly is going to lay with soloability and hoping you folks in the conj and necro forums can help me with this. <div></div>

[Klu]

Had quite a few replies from the necro boards as I posted it there as well, I didn't mean to bait a conjuror into saying they can indeed solo something a necro can't and then I would call for the nerf patrol *smiles* I'm just curious because I HAVE indeed seen conjurors solo some pretty nasty stuff yet have not seen a necro do the same and was wondering if its the pet buffs that allow a conjuror to pet tank a heroic that a necro would not be able to or if I'm completely mistaken and both can solo the exact same mobs at the exact same level regardless. <div></div>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV>I've certainly met Necros who seem very surprised by some of the stuff that I can solo with the tank pet. The difficulty is that with both Conjuror and Necro, your player skill at soloing has more of an effect than with many other classes. That means that you can take two comparitively equally kitted out conjurors and one of them will be able to solo a particular mob with ease while the other regularly crashes and burns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On balance, I'd say that our tank pet is a bit stronger than the Necros' - but that they have better single target DPS which can be more useful than the tank against some content (see all the threads where conj's praise air pet soloing so highly).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I can tell, top of the line solo specialist perfomances such as soloing the Roost at level 60 can be achieved by both Necros and Conjurors with the right tactics. There may be some things that Necros can do a bit better than conjurors, because some mobs succumb better to straight out single-target DPS. There may be some things that Conjurors can do a bit better, because tanking an extra few seconds is the key.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They're pretty well balanced I'd say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xalmat]

In my experience, Conjurors are more able to cripple monsters than Necros (5 second stun + 5 second stifle/pacify + 1 second stun/massive DD, versus 6 second stun and questionable duration Fear). On top of that, our defense stance seems better geared for hard hitters than the necro defense stance (HP ward versus a lifetap damage shield), and our buffs seem somewhat more geared towards pet defense (Geotic Brand line is +mitigation, Mark of the Miasmic line is +INT and +STA). Our high end pet buffs also crank out FAR more damage than necro pet buffs (Blazing Presence + Elemental Vestment vs Lich and Consumption).However, that's just on paper. Like X above said, player skill makes the biggest difference.

[GSOO]

I have seen a necro's solo, and I have been able to solo 2-3 levels below me. I usually use the tank method thorw dps and make the tank immune for 3 hits and a higher ac. All during this time I am crippling and stunning it. When my pet is 50% health. i simply time the root and pet pull back. This allows the pet to regain health, and I keep the mob rooted as the bad little child in the corner. Then I go back and spank him or her somemore. I think the only problem is when my roots resist.

[hellfire]

go hit summoners tower we discuss alot of solo tactics  as well  as  haveing input from both conj. and necros.

[Klu]

I'v scoured over summoners tower forums last night but couldnt find any relevant information aside from the side by side spell comparison which was quite helpfull, most posts I did find on the subject were almost a year old though. I'm still torn between the 2. Seems like fear and root+fear on break would be more usefull than snare and root+snare on break while soloing. Then on the otherhand the increased pet buffs combined with what looks like extremely usefull stuns/stifles + dmg that the necro lines lack. While my necro is still in his 30's I have no idea how exactly a higher level necro solos but I would imagine in a group encounter they would root one, fear/root anothers and go after 1 at a time, which is what I have been doing with mixed success. If a conjuror did this wouldnt their aoe's be continually breaking the roots making one of their big advantages (group encounters) less effective than a necro whose damage lies in single targets? <div></div>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV>Clever conjurors going up against group encounters choose one of a few different tactics based upon the encounter difficulty and the number of mobs in the encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lots of easy mobs in a group is often best taken down using the Fire Pet now - green or weak blue solo groups. Fire pet does massive AoE and casts repeatedly from range. The conjuror may start with his AoE Direct Damage (DD) which includes a snare, slowing the mobs' approach while the fire pet continues to churn out AoE dots and nukes. He then adds his AoE stifle followed by his PBAoE DD + Knockback and pacify. By this time the mobs will be dead on easy encounters, the conjuror may need to throw out a single heal just to keep the pet alive for the last couple of casts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slightly more difficult encounters are often best dealt with by the Air Pet. He eats through mobs so very quickly and has enough health to take on a big bunch just due to speed of kill. Once again, the conjurors stifles and knockback help out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the difficulty increases, the tank pet can become the pet of choice. The Conjuror has plenty of AoE damage and with the tank pet holding aggro, you can do a great deal though it takes a little longer. When the air pet isn't able to hold out long enough, the tank pet comes into play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you move up the scale still further - particularly for groups of 2 or 3 tough mobs, the root really comes into play. You can root one mob and have the other come to you. That is far enough for the AoE effects not to reach the rooted mob and break the root. For safety, root and take a few steps backward to deal with the other mob(s). Once again Air and Earth pet can be used depending upon the mob type and difficulty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As said before... both classes are essentially pretty well balanced in soloability. If pushed, most people in this forum would probably lean toward conjuror. I wouldn't play any other class myself... but then I'm biased. :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV>

[Klu]

Thanks, that was quite helpfull in understanding conjuror solo tactics. So for a very difficult (high blue or even con) group encounter the conjuror can't pet tank these either I take it? This was my concern is I prefer pet tanking to root nuking and crowd control, which I almost always have to resort to on my necro as even the tank pet can't stand up to damage very well. If the conjuror could pet tank many more encounters than the necro then this would push me in that direction as it fits more into my playing style. <div></div>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV>It depends upon the encounter. The above breakdown is for group encounter strategies, but group encounters are different from singleton encounters. You can tank grouped white heroics with the tank pet and tank pairs of yellow heroics pretty well too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As Xalmat said, the conjuror has an advantage tanking with the pet, because he has the stifles and stuns to hold off the damage. Blue^^^ singleton heroics are easily soloable for a skillful and decently equipped conjuror post 40. White ^^^ heroics should be soloable with some effort. Post 50, I've soloed white and yellow ^^^ heroics as standard XP fodder, with the pet tanking the mob toe to toe. I've soloed Blue ^^^ named heroics too - where the necros at my level couldn't come close. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're looking to play only a single tactical style of play, then honestly I wouldn't recommend either class. The great strength of summoners is their flexibility and tactical variety. The above breakdown of some of the strategies for dealing with grouped mobs is echoed by a set of different strategies for singleton mobs. Air Pet + snare or Air Pet + root 'n recast or Tank pet + support or Tank Pet + DPS or or or....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The earth pet tanks groups/singletons well enough for you to kill them if you'd prefer to... but sometimes the most efficient strategy is to use one of the other pets and a different approach. There are conjurors who use the Air Pet (high single target DPS) for everything pretty much... but in choosing only a single play-style they limit their options as a result. The wise conjuror knows how to modify strategy and pet choice in order to take on just about any kind of content in the most efficient way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, you'll choose content to suit the class you play to an extent anyway. Both Necros and Conjurors have strengths and tactics to deal with just about anything you'd want to deal with. The things you'll choose to go for mostly will be the ones that best fit your toolset - no matter which of the classes you choose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:06 PM</span>

[Klu]

Thanks, been very helpfull! I'v been looking over some other forum discussions about conjurors as I'm leaning that way and came across this discussion: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=29&message.id=8196&query.id=0#M8196 In it Xalmart shows screens of the live and test versions of the shattered line, which from my knowledge is one of the most important, and shows its duration cut by more than half. I know this went live in LU16 I think it was, did the cut in duration also go live? 54 Conjuror in my guild says his is the same but he could very well be mistaken. <div></div>

[Jeradim]

<P>Yes the duration of the stifle component on the shattered* line was more than halved, and the spell does it's dmg quicker now.  I thought the loss of 7 seconds of stifle would hurt, but the spell is such massive dps now that I haven't really noticed a reduction in it's effectiveness.  </P> <P>X made some good points about group encounters.  The thing with conjurers is that we are bent towards AoE dmg vs. single target dmg which is the forte of necros.  So we really excel against groups of mobs.  With the tank pet, because he holds aggro so well it allows us to let loose with our AoE dps and we can burn down groups really fast (down arrow mobs).  With no arrow mobs you still have to pace yourself a bit, if you go all out you will likely pull aggro.  Waiting a couple seconds between casts solves that though.  Between AoE casts you can also drop some single target spells on the mob your pet is attacking to help kill it faster.</P> <P>If going against 3 ^ mobs, then I will usually separate one out with root, sick the swarm pets on another (after siccing pet to get aggro on him) then the pet on the 3rd.  By the time you and your pet kill off the mob he's on, the swarm pets will have done most of your work for you on the next mob.  Depending on the speed of your kills (air pet or earth pet) you may have to reroot the mob you separated out earlier.  I also do this for groups with a ^^ or ^^^ along with a bunch of buddies.  I'll root the tough one and take the easy ones out.  </P> <P>For no-or-down-arrow groups of mobs though our AoE abilites allow us to deal with them more effectively/easily than a necromancer would be able to.</P> <p>Message Edited by Jeradim on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[feihun]

<DIV>My wife play both a necro and and conj. she love them both, cn solo well with ether class. but as she been getting hight up in levels she been favoring her conjurer more. MY I am a conjurer all the way. I have no Adpt 3 spell all my pets are adpt1 and most of my spell are adtp 1 and app 4 and I have solo heroic ^^^ mods that where 6 to 7 level under me. how I did it works well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First I send my pet "tank one" to attck.</DIV> <DIV>next I cast debuff, just in case he might have a buff on.</DIV> <DIV>then I cast stun.</DIV> <DIV>next I cast all DoT, and swarm pets. right now that is a total of 4 spell.</DIV> <DIV>then I cast my DD</DIV> <DIV>by now I can tell how good my pet is doing, I look at the mob to pet HP Ratio. if my pet is going toe to toe or better I hit a few heals on him. if my pet looks like he will get killed, the mod has 1 bubble more them my pet. I recast my stun spell then my root. </DIV> <DIV>now this is the make or break part of the fight if root holds. I cast offering and kill my pet and recast him. my root holds longer then my pets casting time. send him in and cast a few buff on him. then recast all my DoT and DD on the mob. </DIV> <DIV>if my root dose not hold. I make a quick judgement call. can I stun the mob and heal my pet and push out alittle more DPS to kill him, or give up let my pet hold him off wile I run. there have been time where I attack a mob and my pet HP dropped to 50% and the mob did not even loss 10% in those case I hit a stun and just run. I have found this system to work well for solo single Heroic mob. what I have found from my Conj is the longer the fight last the more DPS I put out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   </DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>untill they fix the earth pet's aoe taunting issues, i would not recomend using it in AOE fights unless you plan on constantly switching targets and having pet attack the each individually.</P> <P>Pet for some reason is not casting his aoe taunt at the begining of a fight anymore, and this causes major problems if you plan on using AOE damage.</P> <P>So, untill they fix the recast timer on the earth pet's taunt, or it's AI casting importance list, the fire pet will be the "safer" pet to solo aoe fights with.</P> <P>Also, fire pets are currently out damaging air pets on single target fights (atleast at 39 it's confirmed). Is probly because the +intell on the pet offensive stances increases ALL of the fire pet's damage spells, where insted the +haste only increases the pet's melee. Adding +str would greatly help the air pet out and restor it to it's single target dps advantage over the fire pet. Since air pets now rely less on their melee and more on the CA, this effect has been magnified a tad.</P> <P>Dont compair your 60 air pet to your 48 fire pet though, need to compair the 46 air pet with the 48 fire to see what i mean. Might even just be a problem with the 32 and 34 pets, duno, but the balance no longer exists to where the air >fire on single and fire > air on multi as it did pre patch.</P>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <P>Also, fire pets are currently out damaging air pets on single target fights (atleast at 39 it's confirmed). Is probly because the +intell on the pet offensive stances increases ALL of the fire pet's damage spells, where insted the +haste only increases the pet's melee. Adding +str would greatly help the air pet out and restor it to it's single target dps advantage over the fire pet. Since air pets now rely less on their melee and more on the CA, this effect has been magnified a tad.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Think of it more as a dps/hp ratio.  It was never written in stone that air was for singles and fire for groups; that's just how it was until the most recent fix to the fire pets.  We sacrifice the pet survivability for increased damage output, that's where the balance lies.  The air pet does do a majority of its damage to its primary target merely due to it being melee-oriented and once you get our proc buff at 50, I wouldn't be surprised if air pulled ahead again (dps-wise) on singles.<BR></DIV>

[XtremSummo]

<P>Yup the rationale has changed a little with the addition of the new pet abilities. It's not so muh about the impact of the offensive buffs, because from what I've read, the air pet specials are affected by higher Intelligence as well as its melee damage being enhanced by the haste. I haven't tested this theory myself, but can see the logic in it. The bigger change has been the extra abilities that were added with the Adept 3 fire pet now having 3 single target spells and 2 AoE ones, resulting in the fire pet doing better damage than before against single targets.</P> <P>Fayline's point is a good one - and it's probably in line with the way the devs are most likely to balance. The pets are more in line now with the class structure for player characters, with the fire pet 'mage' being the glass cannon with the most DPS and the Air pet being the scout with great damage, some effects (e.g. stunning) and more survivability.</P> <P>Personally, I tend to see things in terms of function and situational use. Before the changes, I rarely used the fire pet to be honest - largely because it was fairly unusual to find content that was consistently all groups. Most content I went up against with groups was a mixture of group encounters and single target encounters. The perfect strategy would have been switching pets, so the air pet was used for singletons and the fire for groups... but of course that's impractical in group play because you'd hold up the group too much. In the end, the air pet was the better choice for general group play.</P> <P>I'd probably use the fire pet more in groups now because it would be more suited to mixed singleton/group content. That's a good thing. The air pet still has some good functional uses too. Small groups or groups with weak tanks where the fire pet would be likely to pull aggro and die too easily for example. There's also a range of solo situations where the air pet is still the pet of choice.</P> <P>On the whole, I'd say that the change is a good one for my play and variety of pet use. I have more reasons to want to use all three pets now... but I'd like to see the air pet get a single AoE attack in return for the fire pet gaining more singleton strength. That would enhance its mid-range uses to give a somewhat better coverage in small group and fast-kill soloing.</P> <P>X</P><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:33 AM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV>Hmm i dont think the air pet stuns to my knowledge unless it's a new ability for the high end pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is an interesting idea though, could give the air pet some sort of stifle akin to the assassin's Cut <SPAN>Throat <SPAN> that could stifle mobs for about 5 seconds or so, perhaps hadding this to their whispy blade attack? Would make good sence to me, as the air pet's new advantage would be stoping spell casting mobs for abit.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN>Duration of the stifle should not excede what other classes can do though, perhaps shorten the Dot portion of whispy blade, increase the damage per tic to be the same damage over all, and give it a stifle componant? Dont think that would be too overpowering as whispy blade's reuse timer is about 25-30seconds right?</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>

[Parax]

As a higher level Necro, I can say I have no problems what so ever soloing heroic mobs, be they group or single encounters. It's all in the player man, all in the player. <div></div>