Pet Heal, Suggested Change to a small % value insted of Numerical

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV>Hello,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I currently have a delimma.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Master1 Earth pet at level 38 has 5020 hp while using master2 defensive stance, and 4217 in non-stance mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My app4 heal only heals for 210 (adept 3 heals for around 260)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my heal only heals 4.8% of my pet's hp in normal mode, and only 4.2% in defensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has a 8 second reuse timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It takes 3.1% of my power to cast it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would take me 24 casts to heal my pet it's full hp while in defensive, using 73.8% of my power, and taking 3 minutes and 12 sec (if no interupts) to cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, i know my pet heal is not adept3 or master, but i have seen their values (260 where abouts for adept3) If im mistaken PLEASE give me the correct value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's my reason for spending a good 15 minutes to get all that data?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simple. To point out how inneffective our pet heals are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My solution to this inefficiency is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make the pet heals a % value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This solves 2 issues:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, it tones down the conjuror solo tactic of using their air pet's dps and tossing a heal (the numerical heal works wonders for the air pet, and is why i tend to use it more because my heals actually help it). That would make using the air pet more of a "frail" tactic, but much quicker than the earth tank option. As it stands now, i hardly loose my adept1 air pet since i can heal and stun long enough for the pet and swarms to kill my mob on most solo occasions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, it solves the issue of our heals being ineffective with our tank pets, the pets that actually need to be healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My suggestion is make the spells work as such:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App1- 5%</DIV> <DIV>app2- 6%</DIV> <DIV>app3-7%</DIV> <DIV>app4-8%</DIV> <DIV>adept1-10%</DIV> <DIV>adept3-12%</DIV> <DIV>Master1-15%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, to prevent a conjuror/necro from using a lower lever heal to heal their higher level tank pet, they can do one of two things:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A)  Have a set numerical value that the heal shall not exceed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B) put a level cap on the heal, example: Conjuror's get Repair Servent at level 28. It is the upgrade to Soothe Servent, so Soothe Servents level cap would be 28. Repair Servent's upgrade comes at level 44, so Repair Servent's cap would be 44.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both are very easy to adjust or limit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or, a third and simplest option (though not my preferance), is to give the pet heal a 15 second recast time, and make it around a 10-30% hp heal. This will atleast allow us to heal our pet a nice chunk when the need arizes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Current issues with pet heal:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heals a very low % of pet's hp, and has a long reuse timer to boot.</DIV> <DIV>Is not usefull as a life-saver for pet.</DIV> <DIV>Heals less then a solo mob's melee swing.</DIV> <DIV>Lacks a practical use what so ever.</DIV> <DIV>Heals enough that the air and possibly fire pets can kill solo mobs and tank, making the earth pet less effective as our solo tool</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changeing it to one of the forementioned % healing options would solve many if not all of the above issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it is found that our DPS/tank/healing is too strong while soloing, simply lower the earth pets dps abilities. I for one would rather him be a strong defender with extreemly low dps rather then a mildly better defender with midle dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving it low damage/high taunt and giving us a adquet pet heal would give the earth pets definition as our real defensive mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please reply, im eager to hear some feed back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there is anything you dont agree with or wish to question, please fully state your reasons and lets avoid personal insults, dont wana get this important topic locked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, as a side note that is almost as important, Roaring Flames/Gastly Stentch (necro version) does NOT currently upgrade with spell quality. My master1 is doign same as my app1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Crowflight]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Current issues with pet heal:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heals a very low % of pet's hp, and has a long reuse timer to boot.</DIV> <DIV>Is not usefull as a life-saver for pet.</DIV> <DIV>Heals less then a solo mob's melee swing.</DIV> <DIV>Lacks a practical use what so ever.</DIV> <DIV>Heals enough that the air and possibly fire pets can kill solo mobs and tank, making the earth pet less effective as our solo tool</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changeing it to one of the forementioned % healing options would solve many if not all of the above issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think pet heal is ok at the moment, it is quite effective on the scout/air pets and does ok for the earth pet too.  I also think that if the pet heal was increased or the recast time reduced we could quite easily become overpowered.  Imagine how easy it would be to solo almost any heroic if we could heal our pets anywhere near as well as a priest class can.</P> <P>It might be nice if the heal scaled to the pets level...not sure if that would be overpowering for us as well though.</P> <P></P> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it is found that our DPS/tank/healing is too strong while soloing, simply lower the earth pets dps abilities. I for one would rather him be a strong defender with extreemly low dps rather then a mildly better defender with midle dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving it low damage/high taunt and giving us a adquet pet heal would give the earth pets definition as our real defensive mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Our earth pet in defensive stance is already a pretty strong defender with low dps.  I see it as our job to make sure that the pet takes as little damage as possible, the heal is just there to counter the damage that the pet does inevitably take.  We have lots of tools to prevent the pet from taking damage:  root, ee pacify/stifle, stun, ae stun, the vehement stone line after level 40 (protects against 3 attacks).  When using the earth pet I usually only have to resort to the heal if there are a lot of adds or I am tanking yellow/orange heroics for a group and the healer can't quite keep up (wish earth pet still had decent mitigation, it has a ton of hit points but it seems to get hit really hard). <BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, it tones down the conjuror solo tactic of using their air pet's dps and tossing a heal (the numerical heal works wonders for the air pet, and is why i tend to use it more because my heals actually help it). That would make using the air pet more of a "frail" tactic, but much quicker than the earth tank option. As it stands now, i hardly loose my adept1 air pet since i can heal and stun long enough for the pet and swarms to kill my mob on most solo occasions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, it solves the issue of our heals being ineffective with our tank pets, the pets that actually need to be healed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I almost exclusively use the air pet for soloing and I think it is frail enough as is, you can easily get swamped by adds if you're not careful or just unlucky and it doesn't last long with a lot of things hitting it. </P> <P>Can you describe the encounters that you are fighting where the pet heal isn't enough to keep the earth pet alive?  What tactics are you using?</P> <P><BR>We do get a life-saver for the pet by the way... at level 48 - Minions Intervention (I realise that doesn't help those conjurors at lower levels but it is there).<BR></P> <P> </P>

[Xalmat]

Pet heals aren't going to be upgraded or changed to be made more powerful, which is what a percent heal would do. In the words of Lockeye, the guy in charge of Spells, it would make us too powerful.

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV>I dont want the heal to be overpowered, but it is completely useless in it's current state for the earth pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, we do have many way to use CC to protect our pet, but the point is that our heal = completely useless on earth pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just doesnt work anywhere near what a heal should. It doesnt accomplish the task it needs to do really, which is to restore hp to the pet slightly more than the damage it takes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to be soloing heroics (the encounters im talking about are your normal non-arrow solo mobs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont have to heal my pet, but it just sickens me that i havent used my pet heal on my earth pet in about 10 levels, because i know it's a waiste of power when i could use my stun+DD spell, and recive an overall better effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont like it when a spell is worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if my logic sounds flawed, but here goes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give us a potient and strong heal, but give it a large power cost/low efficency, or give it a long recast time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anything, tripple the ammount healed now, give it a 12 second recast, and tripple it's power cost, then it's actually a "heal" that will make a difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, my pet has 5020 hp, so if you tripple the heal, it becomes 630 heal, at a 201 power cost, a little over 10% heal for a large power cost. It cant be abused much since it's recast and power cost are very large.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's much less efficent than a priest's arch healing, and still less hp healed, with a longer recast timer, so it's not incredibly overpowering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wouldnt allow anyone to solo heroics, becuase no one could ever have enough power to keep healing their pet and put out enough DPS to take down a heroic encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or, just keep it exact same efficency that it currently has, tripple the heal and tripple the recast, just anything to give it a better upfront healing ability so that it will actually "move" the earth pet's hp bar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if i got a tad rant-ish, but im just a tad perturbed by our pet healing ability. If i have my earthpet out, i want to be extremely defensive, more so than a scout but just under a fighter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Crowflight]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dont want the heal to be overpowered, but it is completely useless in it's current state for the earth pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, we do have many way to use CC to protect our pet, but the point is that our heal = completely useless on earth pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont like it when a spell is worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'll concede that the heal doesn't do a whole lot in the way of repairing the earth pet but in my experience the earth pet doesn't need a lot of healing against solo encounters.  In the few times (when I get lots of adds) that I do use the heal on the earth pet when soloing, it keeps it alive long enough for me to dps the mobs down.  That's why I was asking you to describe the situations that make you feel you need more healing power for the earth pet. Then perhaps someone can provide a strategy to help you using the tools that we already have.  As said before, any increase to our ability to heal the earth pet would likely make us too powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The spell is certainly not worthless if you have the scout pet out and that's the pet I see most conjurors (high enough to have the air pet) soloing with.<BR></DIV>

[rc3]

<DIV>adept 3 heals for 280 hp and most solo mobs hit for a lot more then that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example: mobs hits for 280 for one hit and they can hit your pet 3 times in 8 seconds 848 hp there is no way any one can solo a mob with that heal and i know that the mobs hit for more than that so you see my point. If you scale the heal to the mob lvls it would be much more effective then what we have now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another example is if we get a heal at lvl 20 which heals for 280hp at lvl 30 it is useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my basic point is that are heals do not scale and the mobs do</DIV>

[Celestina]

Heres just my 2 cents no personal attacks intended...Cant seem to find the quote option lolrc319 said that our heals dont scaleand Eyes was saying that it doesnt do our earth pet any good..Just wanna bring in a new perspective to the subject If at lvl 20 we get the heal all the way to 30 the spell is meant to "scale" with app I all the way to Master I. However most of us would jump right to either adept I or adept III for most of our spells. In the early 20s we felt the spell was "uber" however after awhile we start to feel that it is less effective but its just cause we are used to having that very effective adept III spell when we first get the spell. If we are to mention scaling with lvl take app I - app II - app III - app IV - adept I - adept III -Master I. Thats 7 lvls of spell scaling in that sense. Most of our spells are in 9-10 lvl intervals so its about there no?Eyes maybe why we find that the heal is useless for earth pet is cause we dont see to the hp bar move as much as compared to the fire/air pet. After all we like to see the bar go up when we heal and the mobs bar go down when we nuke. The numbers are same but based on a different comparison. If we dont complain about our heals healing almost 1/3 of our fire/air pets we shouldnt complain about our heals barely moving the hp bar of the earth pet cause the amount healed is the same. Earth pet is already has insane hp not sure if the mig is the same as the other 2 pets but the fact that he has afew K more hp makes him already a very powrful tool in soloing. I am only lvl 37 on my conj so i am not claiming to know everything but i have mostly soloed up till now and i find that we are already very balanced. With root we never really need to heal our pet in a solo situation. Root - Offering - recast pet. Stand by sliver of essence for that extra pwr saved me a couple of times in long fights or unlucky pops. I would love to have more powful heals but than i think we would truely be unbalanced than.      <div></div>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Quote Xalmat: Pet heals aren't going to be upgraded or changed to be made more powerful, which is what a percent heal would do. In the words of Lockeye, the guy in charge of Spells, it would make us too powerful.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is another point of view here. A percentage heal would improve the tank pet heal but considerably reduce the Air and Fire pet heals. This does affect the conjuror's ability to do stuff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, conjurors are able to farm solo group encounters at an amazingly fast rate with the air pet in offensive stance. A part of that is the ability to heal a major chunk of the air pet's health in a single heal. Conjurors would have to engage a little more in such battles if the easy air pet heal were not available. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the same time, it is also true that a percentage heal would enable conjurors to toe-to toe tank mobs that they should not be able to take on. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the original poster: I posted once that I thought a percentage heal would be a good idea too. At the time, I too was using an apprentice IV heal, though I was using it on adept3 pets. It seemed to me that the Fire pet and Air pet were healed for too much and the earth pet for too little. Soon after that, I went out an upgraded to an adept 3 version and it made a great deal of difference overall. I'd recommend that you grab yourself an Adept3 version for your Master tank pet and I think you'll find that things are considerably better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not against percentage based heals and I think that it would make for an overall more balanced conjuror - but to be frank I now think that it's the fire/air end of the healing range that is off kilter, not the tank pet end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV>

[StaticLex]

<DIV>The pet heals are basically worthless.  If they wanted to make a positive change to the spell line they should have the heal restore 5 K HP and have a 10 minute refresh timer.  Or something along those lines, one big heal followed by a somewhat significant wait to re-use it.  A percentage heal is a bad idea because it is very difficult, if not impossible, to add upgrades for and to keep balanced.</DIV><p>Message Edited by StaticLex on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:07 AM</span>

[Magu]

<a href="http://eq2.ogaming.com/db/items/YeddahdsCaduceus.php" target=_blank>http://eq2.ogaming.com/db/items/YeddahdsCaduceus.php</a><div></div>

[Xalmat]

<blockquote><hr>StaticLex wrote:The pet heals are basically worthless. If they wanted to make a positive change to the spell line they should have the heal restore 5 K HP and have a 10 minute refresh timer. Or something along those lines, one big heal followed by a somewhat significant wait to re-use it. A percentage heal is a bad idea because it is very difficult, if not impossible, to add upgrades for and to keep balanced.<hr></blockquote>You could, you know, rely less on heals and rely more on your stuns, stifles, and flat out butt-whooping ability. I believe we learned this lesson back when the combat changes hit.Or get a Yeddahd's Caduceus. That works too!

[Smeegill]

<P>Xalmat is right.  Be sure pet gets aggro, switching between targets with pet to gain it.  Then whip as much tootie as you can.  We should be able to flat out kill things before the pet dies.  I have the staff and use it if I am fighting say ^^^ mobs (the 3 or more kind)  usually sic in the pet then stun as much as I can and lay out as much damage as possible.  Whip out the staff and keep going.  If thats not enough...run...</P> <P>I can solo some ^^^ heroics now that are a level or two above me.  But I should also point out not all ^^^ heroics and its darn hard to succeed at all.</P> <P>Fizbiz 58 Conjuror Everfrost</P> <P>PS: In reference to OP idea of % as heal I think we need to see pet health bar numbers instead.  Then you can figure out for yourself how much your heal is helping.  I want to see his health bar in #'s when I scroll the mouse over it.  Its been a while but I believe in EQ 1 you could see Pet health and mana bar #'s when you scolled over them.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Loral]

<P>I personnally use the pet heal only to lower downtime between battles, or to slip in to support the pet between casts of stun and stifle, while waiting for DoTs to expire/refresh. </P> <P>If my heal was even just 200pts more powerful than it is now, I could solo heroic yellows without even looking. It would definitely makes us too powerful. A %-based heal would be even more unbalancing, as it would give a powerful boost to earth pet, thus to our soloing, an area where we already outshine most of the other classes.</P> <P>Nice résumé of the current situation, and thanks for taking the time to do a complete reseach and look for alternative solutions. But sadly, in my eyes, it justs confirm that some still rely too much on "pet cleric" mentality, when now we are perfectly geared to rely on a mentality of "kill it before it kills you". If you had questions to ask the mobs, you can always hire a Necromancer to chat with his spirit afterward.</P>

[rc3]

Ferst of all i would like to say linking thangs that are lvl 53 dose no good for those of us that are not at that lvl. <DIV>If thay did not intend for us to up grade to adpt 3 right of the bat then why did thay put it in the game.</DIV> <DIV>If you up grade from app1 to master1 you would be hunting nameds all the time insted of doing the thanges like HQ's , AQ's ,raids and other thanges that make the game fun.</DIV> <DIV>As a Conjuror you get heals for your pet at lvl's 14 , 28 , 42 and 56 </DIV> <DIV>The issue with the % heals can be solved by giveing one heal spell none upgradable at lvl 14 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GSOO]

<DIV>I agree on the concept but also understand Lockeye's repsonses. The monk has a percentage of the mend. It would truely make us more powerful. The only thing I can see if the they increase the percentage or amount but they would also need to increase the reuse. The current method of play I use is stun the heck out of the mob, and patch heal. The higher the defensive stance to higher the ward( not really a ward but a regen) is.</DIV>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

<DIV>My 2cp:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, no changes to our pet heal.  If it's not broke, don't fix it.  Any increase in our ability to heal our earth pet would make now-difficult fights near trivial; and any decrease to our ability to heal our air/fire pets would make them die so often it wouldnt' be funny.  I like the way it currently stands for ALL pets; if we're in a chain-healing scenario, we're bound to lose as should be the case.  We're not healers.  Screw how much the bar moves for different pets; we're still only healing a piddly amount regardless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I couldn't believe people actually feel that we should be able to heal our air pets less, why? Why add a limitation to a class that has such great variety?  Just because some  choose not to solo with the air pet, there's no reason to re-structure the game such that it's not possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vonyor]

I don't wont a percent heal myself, but I would love a HOT "Heal over time". Alot of our spells are DOTs and between casting those and telling the pet what to do. I find my main problem is not having the chance to even heal. A HOT wouldn't be anything that can unfairly keep our pet going and would be very helpful. <div></div>

[GSOO]

<P>I understand that we are good as we are....The person just needs to learn the value of stuns. As I said, if they do the percentage...which I forgot the fluffy, and the living fireball have very little hps....probably worse then us<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. The heal works fine. If they would increase the heal I would also want to see an increase in the reuse timer...To make it fair minimum would be 1 min. Most of my fights even when i get jumped by two individual ^ ups They are usually dead before the minute is up and regular pet heals works fine.  The person requesting this needs to utilize the stuns stifles. My mage unloads a lot of damage which causes the healers to slobber on themselves before the realize to late...Mees getting hit meees neeeeds healz.</P> <P> </P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xalmat wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StaticLex wrote:<BR>The pet heals are basically worthless. If they wanted to make a positive change to the spell line they should have the heal restore 5 K HP and have a 10 minute refresh timer. Or something along those lines, one big heal followed by a somewhat significant wait to re-use it. A percentage heal is a bad idea because it is very difficult, if not impossible, to add upgrades for and to keep balanced.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You could, you know, rely less on heals and rely more on your stuns, stifles, and flat out butt-whooping ability. I believe we learned this lesson back when the combat changes hit.<BR><BR>Or get a Yeddahd's Caduceus. That works too!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As some one said in a earlier reply, please dont link an item that we cant use for about 90% of the game's content = D</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, this isnt ani nsult to you Xalmat, but you just proved my point:</P> <P> </P> <P>Heals are not worth casting, in any situation, because why heal the pet when we could simply stun, root, and dps?</P> <P>Someone said they use it to cut down time, but this person is sadly mistaken.</P> <P>Once you get offering, it much more effective to kill the pet after fights if it's below 70% hp, costs no power to resumon, and it's faster then using a 8 second heal (pet regenerates hp much faster than you can heal it more than likely anyway) so unless your at 100% hp/power, healing the pet after a fight is a waste.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes, you dont have to rely on heals to win fights, but then what is the point of even having them? Why not, say, remove the heals and add a second dot spell? or anything useful?</P> <P> </P> <P>the main issue is the heals are donig opposite as to their intended purpose:</P> <P>Insted of being used for your defensive pet, they are now only useful for when your using your offensive pet in offensive stance.</P> <P>I dare to claim that using the Air pet in offensive stance is faster than any other conjuror solo method, and is not incredibly risky since we do have roots incase of adds.</P> <P>Really, the only time the earth pet is usefull is if your group is lacking a tank and needs a small substitiute, or if fighting more than 3 mobs, or when trying to solo heroics (which is difficult untill higher levels)</P> <P> </P> <P>People can solo ^^^ above their level post 50, so i really dont see how changing the heal is going to completely overbalance us.</P> <P> </P> <P>As i said before, make it a strong heal, but not efficent with the same casting time and recast time as it is now or slightly more (no longer than 10seconds)</P> <DIV>My main point is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While using your tank pet (your in your defensive mode), your heal is obsolete. When using your offensive stance (air pet), your heal is overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I too use my air pet to solo, simply because i can keep it alive with the heal, atleast long enough for it and my swarm pets to eat up any would-be solo mob, and i just dont feel that this is fair. Sure, we should beable to stun the foes and stifle, but i dont think we should beable to heal the air pet at that capacity. The air pet-solo tactic should prove to be fast, but should be much riskier since you are killing much faster. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, unless you get a ton of adds (in which case your earth pet would likely not survive the fight either), there is little to no risk when killing a normal non-arrow yellow con.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do i think the air/fire pet solo should be made impossible? By all means no!</DIV> <DIV>Do i think the earth pet solo should be brought up in calibure to the others? Very much so.</DIV> <DIV>Do i think that a heal with a base ratio of 3hp/1.25power at app1, scaling to 6hp/1.25power at master2 should be acceptible? yes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A 300hp heal for 125power app1 at 28 would work well, and at master 2 this would scale all the way to a 600 hp heal, at 125power. This ratio is less than a priest's minor healing, and we would run completely OOP if we were attempting to heal and dps. At level 28, most conjurors if they are lucky can cast this 10 times, and my level 38 conjuror with slightly above average gear could only cast this only 16 times. This without using any power for stuns or DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The power cost is the limiting factor. If we choose, we could not cast any offensive spells and purely focus on healing pet, and loose about 80% or more of our dps, the 20% being the pet's damage (which, if we get an improved healing ability, im in no way against a further reduction in the tank pet's dps, so long as he can hold agro)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To compair, at 28, my nuke costs 42 power and does 240 damage (133 intell) at adept3, useable every 5 seconds. That is 5.7 damage pet power ratio. I can casts this almost twice in the time it takes me to cast my heal. So basically, i can choose to do 480+ damage for 84power, or heal pet for around 500+ (what ever the adept3 would be) for 125 power. I could choose to only nuke (which is not [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] efficent as our swarm pets or dot as im sure your aware) and do a total of 11280 damage in 47 casts (thats using all of my 2000 power at level 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, compaired to healing 8000 hp in 16 casts (again, thats using all of my 2000 power at 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that same 2000 power, my warden at 38 can heal for 363 in 6 seconds, for 79 power using his minor healing adept1, which comes to 25 casts, healing a total of 9075.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats just using the minor healing (Nature's Caress), and nothing else. Minor Healing is the least efficent heal that a priest can cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That right there shows that a priest could easily out heal a conjuror with my propossed changes to the pet heal, by using their worst heal, and heal it in a faster time frame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the sake of aurgument, if my priest used only his adept1 Blessing of the Grove hp regen, he would heal 630 per cast, every 10 seconds. Same power cost as the minor healing spell, so thats 25 casts with that same 2000 power, which comes to a wopping 15750 hp healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no way possible that a Conjuror using my proposed heal could get anywhere near as much total hp healed as a real priest, and thats considering if the conjuror uses only heals and nothing else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's obvious which would be more efficent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, im not trying to make our pet heal better than a priests, but i do what it to heal a rather large ammont, but have an extremely inefficent power cost, so that it cant be abused. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no way that with a power cost that high that anyone could manage to killa  heroic by using their tank pet, healing him, and put out enough dps to kill a heroic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just not possible (unless you consider the power regen from higher level gear, but they are allready able to kill heroics, so it's a mute point)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Those are my facts as to how a conjuror could not possibly have enough power to use this heal and still perform dps abilities with out running dry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there are any flaws in my data please point them out so that i can correct them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The heal i have proposed, while large in ammount, is a major power drainer, and lacks the efficency of a true priest heal, and it heals less than the compairible minor healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone who has played a priest past level 20 will beable to tell you that they do not use the minor healing spells as their normal heal, because it is not [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] efficent as the arch or specialty healing lines. Minor healing insted is used to attempt to quickly heal an extra bit more in hard cases where you dont have time to wait on the arch healing's casting time or reuse timer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This new heal im proposing is just like that, ment for emergencies where your not as concerned about your power efficency, and more concerned with survival.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This heal would not beable to keep up with heroic damage outputs, but it would beable to hold it's own against solo and perhaps single ^ damage if the need arizes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please tell me what you all think, im trying to ge tthis as fair as possible, not makig it to overpowering, but still giving it a use. i expect my adept3 heal at 28 to heal for 500 hp at a 125 power cost, with a 8 second recast and 2 second casting time. That is a 1power = 4hp power compairison, lower than the adept1 minor healing. That is a 50hp/second heal. My warden's listed minor healing adept1 is 60.5 hp/second heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My warden can not keep a tank alive against heroics solely by using his minor healing spell. Considering the Conjuror spell i proposed is less power efficent and heals less per second than a lower tier verson of a priests worst heal, i can honestly say i do not feel that this will overpower us in any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for the long post riddled with typos and stuff that may not al make sence. Please point out any errors i have made:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Crowflight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>the main issue is the heals are donig opposite as to their intended purpose:</P> <P>Insted of being used for your defensive pet, they are now only useful for when your using your offensive pet in offensive stance.</P> <P>I dare to claim that using the Air pet in offensive stance is faster than any other conjuror solo method, and is not incredibly risky since we do have roots incase of adds.</P> <P>Really, the only time the earth pet is usefull is if your group is lacking a tank and needs a small substitiute, or if fighting more than 3 mobs, or when trying to solo heroics (which is difficult untill higher levels)</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Who said heals were intended for your defensive pet?  It's surely the offensive pets that need healing the most. </P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>My main point is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While using your tank pet (your in your defensive mode), your heal is obsolete. When using your offensive stance (air pet), your heal is overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I too use my air pet to solo, simply because i can keep it alive with the heal, atleast long enough for it and my swarm pets to eat up any would-be solo mob, and i just dont feel that this is fair. Sure, we should beable to stun the foes and stifle, but i dont think we should beable to heal the air pet at that capacity. The air pet-solo tactic should prove to be fast, but should be much riskier since you are killing much faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, unless you get a ton of adds (in which case your earth pet would likely not survive the fight either), there is little to no risk when killing a normal non-arrow yellow con.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do i think the air/fire pet solo should be made impossible? By all means no!</DIV> <DIV>Do i think the earth pet solo should be brought up in calibure to the others? Very much so.</DIV> <DIV>Do i think that a heal with a base ratio of 3hp/1.25power at app1, scaling to 6hp/1.25power at master2 should be acceptible? yes.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:23 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't think the heal for the air pet is overpowered; it can still be brought down a whole lot faster than you can heal it if you get in trouble.  Yes, we can solo fast with little risk but so can sorcerors and other high dps classes if they are played right.  Watch a good wizard, warlock or ranger solo sometime...</P> <P>Also, if you don't need the heal when soloing with the earth pet, what difference does changing the heal make?  Adds are typically the only risk against solo encounters (this applies to most other classes too) and the earth pet can handle a lot more adds than the scout pet and can even taunt a whole group of them off you. </P> <P>If you want riskier, try soloing with the igneous pet in offensive stance.   This can actually be the fastest method against larger groups of solo mobs.</P> <P> </P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Lol, Carencro, i play a warlock, actually it's my highest toon, level 50, and it's not quite as rosey on the dps as you seem to think :smileywink:</P> <P>When you solo as a Sorceror, you dont just nuke and poof a dead mob (well, wizards with IC can almost do that, but it still usually wont instant kill a mob)</P> <P>You have to root, then debuff resists, and use your secondy aoe root so u have double roots on, then you proceed to use your 3 main nukes. If root breaks, then you must quick stun or logner cast stun/nuke, or reroot.</P> <P>On average, it takes just as long for my warlock to kill a single as my conjuror, if not a little slower.</P> <P> </P> <P>Air pet can be brought down, that is if your not using your CC ability called root :smileysurprised:</P> <P> </P> <P>on any occassion that you cant root the adds, and they overwhelm your air pet, chances are your earth pet wont fair much better...</P> <P> </P> <P>To me, it seems like the air pet in offensive stance + our heal just works a tad bit too well. While i realy dont want it to be nerfed, i want the eart pet to be the "perfered" solo pet, with a noticable advantage, since it serves little to no purpose while grouping or raiding (well, some people say they have to use earth pet just because it can survive AOE's, which to me sounds wierd. If we cant use our dps pets on a raid because of aoe, then we need a pet rune spell that will absorb an aoe hit or 2)</P> <P> </P> <P>Actually, i have tried using the fire pet solo, and it works great on small AOE groups of solo mobs, but thoughs are ususally far and few between, but it does work in thoughs cases.</P> <P> </P> <P>Personally, i wish that the pet heal was a more important part of the earth pet's stratagy. While it's not nessisary to heal the earth pet, in a situation where the group has no tank, a conjuror using my proposed pet heal could focus only on defense (earth pet, defensive stance, and only using heals and stuns) could focus at about 4/5th's the capacity of a normal tank.</P> <P>A Master1 pet in Master2 defense with Adept3 heal should have the same total tanking ability of a fighter in adept1 defensive stance in treasured armor, enough for your average heroic fight, but not enough for difficult named encounters and such.</P> <P>If a conjuror wishes to focus that much on their defensive capabilities, then they should beable to match a average geared fighter. (If conjuror is focused solely on defense, they do not have power to spare on dps, so they wont be performing double-roles of Tanking and DPS at the same time)</P> <P> </P> <P>So yes, while fighting solo mobs with your earth pet, the heal is not your most important aspect since you can burn them down, but i would like the earth pet to also have a good group aspect, so that if you upgrade your "defensive" spells (tank pet, defensive stance, pet heal) to high ranks, that you could fill in as a average-geared tank, while giving up a majority of your DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>This is what im hoping can happen, but it needs to be balanced so that:</P> <P>A) A conj/necro can never exceed a real fighter with equal upgrades</P> <P>and</P> <P>B) Conj/necro can never be doing good DPS and have the decient  tanking ability (good enough for average heroics)</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So long as thoughs two things are kept in check, then i really dont see why this would be a negative change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Crowflight]

<DIV>I don't speak from personal experience when talking about sorcerors, having never played one.  I have observed them being played though and they seem to keep up with us quite easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our CC can help us ignore single adds for a while but are not nearly so effective when there is a group of them.  The earth pet can take a beating from two or three groups of solo con mobs for quite a while in defensive stance, far longer than the scout pet would hold up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You seem to be overlooking the fact that most tanks need a healer to stand up in groups (crusaders get pretty good healing capabilities). We can fill in as a tank, I do it quite often, and we don't have to sacrifice most of our dps to do it (don't see why we should have to either).  We do, however, need a healer just like real tanks, actually need more healing for earth pet than regular tanks I think. It is highly unlikely that we will ever be able to replace a priest as healer for our pet.  We can spot heal the pet to help with the healing but that's it.  We are also make a pretty good off tank.  The biggest difference I see between the earth pet and real tanks is that we cannot really control when the pet uses it's taunts etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of our pets have value but they are situational, so use the right pet at the right time.  We have 9 options... 3 pets with offensive/defensive/no stance (don't use the no stance much).  Why should there be a prefered option at all for soloing, grouping or raiding?  If you're not making use of all of your pets then I think you're missing out.  I guess what I'm ultimately saying is: "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carencro wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't speak from personal experience when talking about sorcerors, having never played one.  I have observed them being played though and they seem to keep up with us quite easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our CC can help us ignore single adds for a while but are not nearly so effective when there is a group of them.  The earth pet can take a beating from two or three groups of solo con mobs for quite a while in defensive stance, far longer than the scout pet would hold up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You seem to be overlooking the fact that most tanks need a healer to stand up in groups (crusaders get pretty good healing capabilities). We can fill in as a tank, I do it quite often, and we don't have to sacrifice most of our dps to do it (don't see why we should have to either).  <FONT color=#ff0000>We do, however, need a healer just like real tanks, actually need more healing for earth pet than regular tanks I think. It is highly unlikely that we will ever be able to replace a priest as healer for our pet.</FONT>  We can spot heal the pet to help with the healing but that's it.  We are also make a pretty good off tank.  The biggest difference I see between the earth pet and real tanks is that we cannot really control when the pet uses it's taunts etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of our pets have value but they are situational, so use the right pet at the right time.  We have 9 options... 3 pets with offensive/defensive/no stance (don't use the no stance much).  Why should there be a prefered option at all for soloing, grouping or raiding?  If you're not making use of all of your pets then I think you're missing out.  I guess what I'm ultimately saying is: "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is what im talking about, our tank pet takes more damage than a real tank, and needs more healing to maintain the same level of tank-ability as a real fighter.</P> <P>Im not saying the Conjuror should beable to solo-heal his pet on heroic fights, what im saying is like this:</P> <P>If our pets take 25% more damage then a normal fighter (in defensive mode that is), then our heals can make up that 25% "extra" damage, bring us to ful tanking capacity, provided we provide that extra small ammount of healing. Think of our heals as a part of our pet's tanking ability.</P> <P> </P> <P>Like say a Guardian recives a 600 damage attack and mitigates it down to 240damage(60% mitigation), priest heals the 250 damage. </P> <P>Now, our pet takes about 600 damage and mitigates it down to 450 damage (25% mitigation), we heal the pet for 200,  then priest heals pet for 250.</P> <P>Since the pet has much less mitigation then the Guardian, the conjuror has to use his heal to take care of the extra damage, or else the priest will have to use more heals than usual.</P> <P>The pet heal is factored in as part of the pet's "mitigation", so to speak, with the exception that it costs Conjuror power to reduce the incoing damage, where as guardian does not (this gives them the advantage), and our heal has a longer reuse timer than the priests, so over all a guardian of equall or better equipment would be the superior tank, better then the conj+pet's ability to tank, but if guaridan had lower gear, then conj+pet could infact be better.</P> <P>Oh, btw, the tank pet will be taunting more offten come LU18 IIRC correctly. Hopefully this will improve it's ability to garner hate quickly like a real tank.</P> <P>Hope this is a good change.</P> <P>Toodles!<BR></P>

[GSOO]

<P>First of all Eyes you need to understand the role of the Conjuror heal. It is only a patch, and a twist in to keep the pet up that is used in emergencies. I use my heals most of the time. I also try to keep the mob stunned and stiffled. That is our advantage when stunned the mob is not hitting on the pet, and it allows the "wards" to heal the pet and our small heals. </P> <P>Your statement that any class can solo heroic ^^^ mobs greater then your level is simply put "BULL SHEET". Play a templar. They used to be able to do it, but 2 changes ago has stopped it, and now you have to wait till they are the lowest of green con if not grey. The conjuror can do it, and I have proven once again. I finished Jaza at lvl 45 you get attacked by 6 pirates one equal con. This is a heroic encounter and it was close but the gnome and tubby survived.</P> <P>I have played enough characters and see where certain classes shine and when they don't. We have our concerns, but mostly when we whine someone says, "Gimme a Break....look what we CAN DO". That finished the whining. We should not get better heals. If you want better heals group with a templar/mystic/warden (don;t group with a defiler/inquistor/fury = cause the ebil <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). If you don't want to group, then learn to use the powewrs of the class to your advantage.</P>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <P>1) Air pet can be brought down, that is if your not using your CC ability called root :smileysurprised:</P> <P>2) To me, it seems like the air pet in offensive stance + our heal just works a tad bit too well. While i realy dont want it to be nerfed, i want the eart pet to be the "perfered" solo pet, with a noticable advantage, since it serves little to no purpose while grouping or raiding (well, some people say they have to use earth pet just because it can survive AOE's, which to me sounds wierd. If we cant use our dps pets on a raid because of aoe, then we need a pet rune spell that will absorb an aoe hit or 2)</P> <P>Actually, i have tried using the fire pet solo, and it works great on small AOE groups of solo mobs, but thoughs are ususally far and few between, but it does work in thoughs cases.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is becoming frustrating.  Your logic is flawed in group scenarios and you contradict yourself with regards to air pet useage.</P> <P>1)  Root is probably the most situational CC ability we have, effective only at the beginning of an encounter to seperate mobs or when a wanderer is clearly going to path into aggro range.  If a mob is already engaged as part of the encounter your whole group will not simultaneously back off the rooted mob (If they do, kudos to people playing well and paying attention :smileytongue: ).  So, if our friendly neighborhood healer, caster, or scout for that matter draws aggro, rooting it will NOT protect them or the group because the mobs still pounding away while stuck in one spot.</P> <P>Our primary and class defining CC ability is *gasp* our PET.  And what pets are used in groups?  Air and fire, our two lowest hp companions.  So, back to our little scenario.... Tanks tanking, healers healing the tank, healer draws aggro from a mob in the encounter.  What does Mr. Conjuror do? Uses his pet to peel aggro off the healer, but apparently you want this to be a suicidal by trivializing our ability to patch heal our DPS pets.  Don't expect your healer to take his attention off the tank for the sake of our pets, either.</P> <P>2)  Don't claim you don't want our ability to use the air pet nerfed when your posting overly verbose arguments specifically geared to eliminating using the air pet solo.</P> <DIV>3)  Why? Why, Why Why??? Our class has remarkable diversity.  We're able to pick and choose between, as posted above, 9 different combinations of pets and stances; yet you apparently want to pigeon-hole us into only using our earth pet solo.  Why?  Because it's "too effective?"  Grief, you don't even have Blazing Presence yet; I can see your next thread now.... <EM>Change Blazing Presence to a Pet Rune</EM> because it's obviously, too effective.  It can join your other classics such as "Give healers pets" (where's the roll-eyes smiley when you need one?).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a horrible idea, and I hope (after your overly verbose, long-winded retort) that this thread sinks into oblivion to join your other "great ideas."</DIV>

[GSOO]

<DIV>Well my Templar has two pets....One little sexy wood elf chick in a long dress, and my SHROOM. Yes they do absolutely nothing but healers have pets<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

<DIV>What?!? You can summon a sexy wood elf chick?? Now that's imbalance! (cause I want one too :smileytongue: )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nah, that comment was from a pre-LU13 post of Eye's suggesting that healers should get pets so they can solo faster; complete with overly complicated use of concentration slots/reduction in heal ability/ etc. so it "couldn't be used in groups," a real balance (and probably coding) nightmare.  It stuck in my mind because of how the healer community (and everyone else for that matter) basically agreed "No, this is stupid."  Yet Eye's continued ad-nauseum with mile-long responses trying to justify his idea and woudn't let it die the death it deserved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate being mean, but this guy frustrates me, especially when calling for nerfs on a class that is so much fun in its current state :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ack, now I'M not letting this thread die :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Die Thread, Die!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fayline Fyrecat on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GSOOne wrote:<BR> <P>First of all Eyes you need to understand the role of the Conjuror heal. It is only a patch, and a twist in to keep the pet up that is used in emergencies. I use my heals most of the time. I also try to keep the mob stunned and stiffled. That is our advantage when stunned the mob is not hitting on the pet, and it allows the "wards" to heal the pet and our small heals. </P> <P>Your statement that any class can solo heroic ^^^ mobs greater then your level is simply put "BULL SHEET". Play a templar. They used to be able to do it, but 2 changes ago has stopped it, and now you have to wait till they are the lowest of green con if not grey. The conjuror can do it, and I have proven once again. I finished Jaza at lvl 45 you get attacked by 6 pirates one equal con. This is a heroic encounter and it was close but the gnome and tubby survived.</P> <P>I have played enough characters and see where certain classes shine and when they don't. We have our concerns, but mostly when we whine someone says, "Gimme a Break....look what we CAN DO". That finished the whining. We should not get better heals. If you want better heals group with a templar/mystic/warden (don;t group with a defiler/inquistor/fury = cause the ebil <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). If you don't want to group, then learn to use the powewrs of the class to your advantage.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never once said that anyone class can solo a heroic...</P> <P>I said that pritty much any mage (though it's most difficult for enchanters) can solo ^^^ at 50+ , my warlock can, takes a while with luck, but it is doable. Well, specificaly i said conjurors can solo ^^^ allready at 50+ allready, so not adding in the heal change to try to alleviate that issue is mute. </P> <P>The heal will....not... allow you to solo a heroic.</P> <P>The heal will...not...allow you to be the main tank and main healer against a heroic fight.</P> <P>Oh by all means i understand what the conjuror's heal is for. Reread my last post please good sir or madam.</P> <P> </P> <P>The heal is factored in as part of our pet's mitigation, aka a patch heal (a heal that doesnt restore all the damage taken on average, just helps lessen the over all ammount that the real healer will have to deal with) If a mob hits an average geared Guardian for 500, and guaridan mitigates this damage by 50%, he takes 250 damage. Lets say the priest's minor healing = 250, so priest casts this and damage is gone. Now, our master1 pet in master2 defensive stance, we'll assume has around 20% mitigation (which is probly really much less), gets hit for 500 and mitigates it to 400 damage, then we heal the pet for 200, leaving pet with 200 damage left, which the priest could heal now or wait till next damage to hit pet. Considering we can only use our heal every 8 seconds, realistically speaking, we will only heal the pet on every other damage burst.</P> <P>Lets say we healed pet on thatfirst round of attacks, but then we cant cast for 6 seconds. durring thoughs 6 seconds, pet is gona be hit atleast once, and we wont beable to heal it. Thats when the priest picks up the slack.</P> <P>Example: after first round of blows, lets say the priest decides to wait till the pet takes more damage before healing, so pet starts out at 200 damage. Guardian, who got healed, is at 0 damage, with one minor heal. Pet takes 400 damage on next hit, which we are waiting on our recast timer for pet heal, and the priest uses an arch heal for 600 hp heal, bringing the pet to 0 damage, with 1 arch heal. Guardian takes the usual 250 damage, and priest could either wait or use another minor healing.</P> <P>Incase you dont see the paturn, the priest is usuing more or less the same ammount of heals for each. The pet-heal mearly shaves off damage on about every other attack, it in no way removes all of the damage.</P> <P>Honestly people, the heal changes im proposing are not that drastic. The heal is less effective than the priest's worst heal, minor healing's upgrades to be specific, and has terrible power > hp healed.</P> <P>Name one tank + healer combo that could kill any heroic white+ ^^^ mob with the healer only using minor healing (and no pally heals :smileywink: )</P> <P> </P> <P>So in regards to your reply (which, although misconstrewd, im glad for your input):</P> <P>No, i do not expect the heal to be stronger than a priests minor healing, but i do expect it to be improved to a meaningful level</P> <P>yes, i expect to have to work with atleast 1 priest to successfully tank using my earth pet for a group, and i expect the heal to work well against solo-mob damage</P> <P>no, i neaver said that "any class can solo heroic ^^^ mobs greater then your level", because that is an untrue statment, some cant.</P> <P>Thanks for your reply though,</P> <P>Toodles!<BR></P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fayline Fyrecat wrote:<BR> <DIV>What?!? You can summon a sexy wood elf chick?? Now that's imbalance! (cause I want one too :smileytongue: )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nah, that comment was from a pre-LU13 post of Eye's suggesting that healers should get pets so they can solo faster; complete with overly complicated use of concentration slots/reduction in heal ability/ etc. so it "couldn't be used in groups," a real balance (and probably coding) nightmare.  It stuck in my mind because of how the healer community (and everyone else for that matter) basically agreed "No, this is stupid."  Yet Eye's continued ad-nauseum with mile-long responses trying to justify his idea and woudn't let it die the death it deserved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate being mean, but this guy frustrates me, especially when calling for nerfs on a class that is so much fun in its current state :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ack, now I'M not letting this thread die :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Die Thread, Die!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Fayline Fyrecat on <SPAN class=date_text>12-16-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:00 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have called for no nerfs, with the exception of the ability to heal the air pet just slightly.</P> <P>Well, my priest pet idea might not be the best one out there, but Templars and Wardens still solo as slow as ever... but apparently few care.</P> <P>Thanks for the lovely derail though, well done :smileywink:</P> <P>Oh, and to anser your concerns:</P> <P>1)  Root is probably the most situational CC ability we have, effective only at the beginning of an encounter to seperate mobs or when a wanderer is clearly going to path into aggro range.  If a mob is already engaged as part of the encounter your whole group will not simultaneously back off the rooted mob (If they do, kudos to people playing well and paying attention <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> ).  So, if our friendly neighborhood healer, caster, or scout for that matter draws aggro, rooting it will NOT protect them or the group because the mobs still pounding away while stuck in one spot. <FONT color=#ff0000>I was mentioning using root as reference to soloing with the air pet. Most adds are usually single encounters, so you can simply root any add you get, and finish killing the one your air pet is on. The air pet will only die if you get about 3 or 4 adds, or if you get a resists, or do a sloppy job.</FONT></P> <P>Our primary and class defining CC ability is *gasp* our PET.  And what pets are used in groups?  Air and fire, our two lowest hp companions.  So, back to our little scenario.... Tanks tanking, healers healing the tank, healer draws aggro from a mob in the encounter.  What does Mr. Conjuror do? Uses his pet to peel aggro off the healer, but apparently you want this to be a suicidal by trivializing our ability to patch heal our DPS pets.  Don't expect your healer to take his attention off the tank for the sake of our pets, either. <FONT color=#ff0000>Im really confused as to you logic on this number. Your using your dps pets to snatch agro? correct me if im wrong, but inst that what the earth pet is rather adept at doing? It's suicidle to try to snatch agro with a dps pet, and then expect to heal it against heroic damage :smileywink:</FONT></P> <P>2)  Don't claim you don't want our ability to use the air pet nerfed when your posting overly verbose arguments specifically geared to eliminating using the air pet solo. <FONT color=#ff0000>Well, not much i can say to this except your overexagerating my comments. I said that it needs to be lowered <EM>slightly.</EM> Right now, it is the most effective way to solo, with, while not allways, in most cases is just as safe as using the earth if done correctly. This would be simular to a Wizard simply using nukes, but not using any roots/snares/stuns while fighting, aka, not a good choice for our little wizard. If we get to solo with our air pet (aka using full dps mode as if we were in a group), but not have the extra risk involved from not using our defenses (earth pet). None of the other mage classes (enchanter/sorceror) can solo well if they dont take time to use their defensive abilities insted of only using their offense. When a sorceror has to take time to root, stun, debuff ecta, thats lowering their dps while soloing, becuase they have to manage their defense. Now, with our air pet out, we still maintain a group-damage out put rankings, with the exceptio of taking 2 seconds to heal the pet. While i dont want to make the tactic impossible, it does need a slight adjustment, like require the pet in no or defensive stance atleast to survive well enough with out heal. Sorcerors/enchanters dont just burn though mobs, thats cominging from a person with a 50 warlock, 38 Conjuror, 30 Illusionist, so while im not completely uber or what not, i have played the mage specrtum.</FONT></P> <DIV> 3)  Why? Why, Why Why??? Our class has remarkable diversity.  We're able to pick and choose between, as posted above, 9 different combinations of pets and stances; yet you apparently want to pigeon-hole us into only using our earth pet solo.  Why?  Because it's "too effective?"  Grief, you don't even have Blazing Presence yet; I can see your next thread now.... <EM>Change Blazing Presence to a Pet Rune</EM> because it's obviously, too effective.  It can join your other classics such as "Give healers pets" (where's the roll-eyes smiley when you need one?).</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I most certainly do not want to piggen-hole us, but we allready are. Why choose any other pet to solo, when the air is obviously  "da king". I like diversity, but im not going to use a pet that is less effective at killing the mobs, but with about the same risk. Because of our stuns and pet heal, we can use what no other mage can: our high group DPS ratings.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I dont want the air solo pet nerfed to uselessness, but i dont want it to be the primary option for soloing. I want each pet to be equally desireable when soloing. Currently, the earth and fire are well below the Air in this regard.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Toodles!</FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:27 PM</span>

[Crowflight]

<p>From an earlier response: </p> <p>        This is what im talking about, our tank pet takes more damage than a real tank, and needs more healing to maintain the same level of tank-ability as a real fighter.</p> <p>        Im not saying the Conjuror should beable to solo-heal his pet on heroic fights, what im saying is like this:</p> <p>        If our pets take 25% more damage then a normal fighter (in defensive mode that is), then our heals can make up that 25% "extra" damage, bring us to ful tanking             capacity, provided we provide that extra small ammount of healing. Think of our heals as a part of our pet's tanking ability. </p> <p> Our heal works just fine for this... we are already able to substitute for a fighter in most encounters but we are never as capable as a well played fighter for managing aggro and dealing with adds and that is how it should be. </p> <span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Our primary and class defining CC ability is *gasp* our PET.  And what pets are used in groups?  Air and fire, our two lowest hp companions.  So, back to our little scenario.... Tanks tanking, healers healing the tank, healer draws aggro from a mob in the encounter.  What does Mr. Conjuror do? Uses his pet to peel aggro off the healer, but apparently you want this to be a suicidal by trivializing our ability to patch heal our DPS pets.  Don't expect your healer to take his attention off the tank for the sake of our pets, either. <font color="#ff0000">Im really confused as to you logic on this number. Your using your dps pets to snatch agro? correct me if im wrong, but inst that what the earth pet is rather adept at doing? It's suicidle to try to snatch agro with a dps pet, and then expect to heal it against heroic damage :smileywink:</font></p><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class="date_text">12-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Of course we use or pet to peel an add off the healer.  We can even keep the pet alive long enough for the tank to pick up the add.  Yes it is likely to be suicidal but we are expendable, the healer isn't.  A Healer dying to an add is usually the start of a group wipe.</span> <span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <div></div><div> 3)  Why? Why, Why Why??? Our class has remarkable diversity.  We're able to pick and choose between, as posted above, 9 different combinations of pets and stances; yet you apparently want to pigeon-hole us into only using our earth pet solo.  Why?  Because it's "too effective?"  Grief, you don't even have Blazing Presence yet; I can see your next thread now.... <em>Change Blazing Presence to a Pet Rune</em> because it's obviously, too effective.  It can join your other classics such as "Give healers pets" (where's the roll-eyes smiley when you need one?).</div> <div><font color="#ff0000">I most certainly do not want to piggen-hole us, but we allready are. Why choose any other pet to solo, when the air is obviously  "da king". I like diversity, but im not going to use a pet that is less effective at killing the mobs, but with about the same risk. Because of our stuns and pet heal, we can use what no other mage can: our high group DPS ratings.</font></div> <div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div> <div><font color="#ff0000">I dont want the air solo pet nerfed to uselessness, but i dont want it to be the primary option for soloing. I want each pet to be equally desireable when soloing. Currently, the earth and fire are well below the Air in this regard.</font></div> <div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div> <div><font color="#ff0000">Toodles!</font></div> <p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class="date_text">12-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>Each of our pets has a use, right now, for both solo and group situations and the heal has it's uses in all of them.   The air pet is our middle of the road pet between the earth pet (high defense) and the fire pet (high offense) so it's a natural fit for most soloing situations. No one is forcing you to use it though, if you want to solo with your earth pet then do so, you should have had plenty of practice since that was all you were likely to use from levels 10-30 (or whenever it is we got the first air pet). 

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Carencro wrote:<BR><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>[snip]</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Of course we use or pet to peel an add off the healer.  We can even keep the pet alive long enough for the tank to pick up the add.  Yes it is likely to be suicidal but we are expendable, the healer isn't.  A Healer dying to an add is usually the start of a group wipe.<BR></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>This is when it's best to use earth pet rather than a dps pet to save a healer, and personally i find it's much more effective to use our 1 second casting time group hp/power restoration skill called offering, saves healer faster than any pet could snag agro = )</FONT><BR><BR><SPAN><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> 3)  Why? Why, Why Why??? Our class has remarkable diversity.  We're able to pick and choose between, as posted above, 9 different combinations of pets and stances; yet you apparently want to pigeon-hole us into only using our earth pet solo.  Why?  Because it's "too effective?"  Grief, you don't even have Blazing Presence yet; I can see your next thread now.... <EM>Change Blazing Presence to a Pet Rune</EM> because it's obviously, too effective.  It can join your other classics such as "Give healers pets" (where's the roll-eyes smiley when you need one?).</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I most certainly do not want to piggen-hole us, but we allready are. Why choose any other pet to solo, when the air is obviously  "da king". I like diversity, but im not going to use a pet that is less effective at killing the mobs, but with about the same risk. Because of our stuns and pet heal, we can use what no other mage can: our high group DPS ratings.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I dont want the air solo pet nerfed to uselessness, but i dont want it to be the primary option for soloing. I want each pet to be equally desireable when soloing. Currently, the earth and fire are well below the Air in this regard.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Toodles!</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <SPAN class=date_text>12-16-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:27 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></SPAN>Each of our pets has a use, right now, for both solo and group situations and the heal has it's uses in all of them.   The air pet is our middle of the road pet between the earth pet (high defense) and the fire pet (high offense) so it's a natural fit for most soloing situations. No one is forcing you to use it though, if you want to solo with your earth pet then do so, you should have had plenty of practice since that was all you were likely to use from levels 10-30 (or whenever it is we got the first air pet). </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Not to split hairs, but the fire pet's dps is actually quite lower than the air pet's when fighting single targets, on multiple targets the fire barely beats out the air. Fire is the most fragile though, your correct there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Also, i have nothing against using air pet to solo, it's using it in offensive stance while soloing that kinda makes me go hmmm...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Thing is, the air pet's defense is just too good while in offensive, it can still hold it's own against a non arrow even con at adept1 while in offensive stance. I just dont think it should beable to deal that much damage while having a defense better than our own still, just seems out of balance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Now, i find nothing wrong with it working in normal or defensive stance, because your not focusing it strictly to kill at the expense of all it's defense. But imo when you have it in offense, it should have exceptional offensive capability as the cost of a sever loss of defense. Right now, the loss is not very apparent since it hardly gets hit with all of our stuns, stufiles and such.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66></FONT>I<BR><BR><BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>think it's ok for conjurors to solo quickly with the air pet in offensive stance, provided the risk is increased a tad to match the benefits. <P>Toodles!<BR><BR></P>

[Jeradim]

<P>OK I admit I only read Eyes first few posts and skipped the really long ones (I'm the pot calling the kettle black because this will be longish too hehe), but I'm in agreement with him on the % based heal.</P> <P>I'm not the pet cleric type anyway but the spell is utterly useless on the earth pet, and a percentage based heal would fix that.  It doesn't have to be a huge percentage as that certainly would be overpowering, but it would be consistent across all pets and if it only healed for 10 or 15% or whatever then it would remain the emergency patch heal that it currently is meant to be for the earth pet (but isn't), while not heal for too much on the other pets like it currently does.  Of course I stun/stifle whenever I can, but when they are not up and the pet's about to bite it I do resort to a heal occasionally (when MI isn't up since that heals for more anyway).</P> <P>It seems that now it's more effective to use the air pet with BP as a kamikaze pet, unload on the mob until the pet dies, root mob -sacrifice- recast pet, finish mob.  I don't think pet-canni or chain casting pets was meant to exist in this game as was in EQ1 -that is, at least not be as powerful as they were in EQ1- but that's pretty much what this strategy is.  The long cast time on pets does nothing to hinder this activity because of root.  Couple that with our snare which allows us to <EM>kite </EM>mobs (also not intended to exist in EQ2), and there really is no reason to use the earth pet, or to use our heal spells at all.  Perhaps we can get like 18 different conjuror-only items introduced into the game with clicky sacrifice on them and it'll be just like old times! :smileywink:</P> <P>Personally, I don't use the above strategy, at least not intentionally.  If my pet dies, yeah I'll try to root the mob and cast another one to finish it off.  I don't pick really tough fights (like heroics or names equal to or above me in level) knowing I can kill them if I use this strategy however.   I guarantee though there are conjurors that do, and go farming high lvl named/heroic mobs for loot.</P> <P>So a % based heal (even if it's small) is overpowering and this is not?  I don't blame conjurors for doing this, the lack of an effective heal and an effective tank pet (who cares how many hps it has when it has 0 mitigation and takes a hit about as well as someone's 108 year old grandma, and does about the same dps too) led them to devise alternate strategies to kill stuff.  For me, if I really wanted to pet-canni and chain cast pets I'd go back to playing my EQ1 Mage (even then I didn't like it).  If I wanted to kite stuff I'd go back to playing my EQ1 druid.  I would take the % based heal at the cost of the sacrifice line being totally removed from the game and the snare component totally removed from the Frigid line.  Call me crazy if you will...</P><p>Message Edited by Jeradim on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeradim wrote:<BR> <P>OK I admit I only read Eyes first few posts and skipped the really long ones (I'm the pot calling the kettle black because this will be longish too hehe), but I'm in agreement with him on the % based heal.</P> <P>I'm not the pet cleric type anyway but the spell is utterly useless on the earth pet, and a percentage based heal would fix that.  It doesn't have to be a huge percentage as that certainly would be overpowering, but it would be consistent across all pets and if it only healed for 10 or 15% or whatever then it would remain the emergency patch heal that it currently is meant to be for the earth pet (but isn't), while not heal for too much on the other pets like it currently does.  Of course I stun/stifle whenever I can, but when they are not up and the pet's about to bite it I do resort to a heal occasionally (when MI isn't up since that heals for more anyway).</P> <P>It seems that now it's more effective to use the air pet with BP as a kamikaze pet, unload on the mob until the pet dies, root mob -sacrifice- recast pet, finish mob.  I don't think pet-canni or chain casting pets was meant to exist in this game as was in EQ1 -that is, at least not be as powerful as they were in EQ1- but that's pretty much what this strategy is.  The long cast time on pets does nothing to hinder this activity because of root.  Couple that with our snare which allows us to <EM>kite </EM>mobs (also not intended to exist in EQ2), and there really is no reason to use the earth pet, or to use our heal spells at all.  Perhaps we can get like 18 different conjuror-only items introduced into the game with clicky sacrifice on them and it'll be just like old times! :smileywink:</P> <P>Personally, I don't use the above strategy, at least not intentionally.  If my pet dies, yeah I'll try to root the mob and cast another one to finish it off.  I don't pick really tough fights (like heroics or names equal to or above me in level) knowing I can kill them if I use this strategy however.   I guarantee though there are conjurors that do, and go farming high lvl named/heroic mobs for loot.</P> <P>So a % based heal (even if it's small) is overpowering and this is not?  I don't blame conjurors for doing this, the lack of an effective heal and an effective tank pet (who cares how many hps it has when it has 0 mitigation and takes a hit about as well as someone's 108 year old grandma, and does about the same dps too) led them to devise alternate strategies to kill stuff.  For me, if I really wanted to pet-canni and chain cast pets I'd go back to playing my EQ1 Mage (even then I didn't like it).  If I wanted to kite stuff I'd go back to playing my EQ1 druid.  I would take the % based heal at the cost of the sacrifice line being totally removed from the game and the snare component totally removed from the Frigid line.  Call me crazy if you will...</P> <P>Message Edited by Jeradim on <SPAN class=date_text>12-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:11 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well put (and quite a bit shorter than mine to boot!)</P> <P>I belive if they make it a small % heal on out normal heal, increase recast to 8 seconds insted of 6, then it will jump up considerably in its useability. Minon's intervention imo is more of a dps pet saver than it is for tank pet, since it heals and prevents death, the direct hp heal on it could be a large amount for a air/fire pet. Imagine this: mob casts an AOE dot spells, it hits your dps pet, and does about 50% og it's hp in damage. So, you cast minon's, and the next deadly tic wont kill it, and pet will regain about 50% hp from the minons heal, pet is back at 100% hp after 2 tics of the powerfull dot, then the 3rd tic pet is back to 50%, and hopefully by the 4th tic of the dot, the dot has run it's duration or the priest in your group has cured it :smileywink:</P> <P>Minon's intervention makes perfect sence to me to be our "pet saver" spell usefull for our fragil pets (dps pets) where as our normal pet heal should be a small % heal usefull for our earth pets, and slightly less usefull but still effective for our Air and Fire pets in their offensive stance.</P> <P>I also agree with the sending in kamakazi pets at no or little power cost and using root. It works better then attempting to heal your earth pet, and, aslong as it taunts before it breaks your root, is very effective, enough so that you can solo ^^^ with it if careful and patient. </P> <P>I just find it ironic that they dont point out that imbalancing mechanic but soon as i mention a heal compairible to minor healing with a bad power ratio or a % heal, it's fire and brimstone hehe :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Perhaps i should have longed onto a friends form acount and suggested, my name and the word "idea" dont settle well on these here boards :smileytongue:</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Xalmat]

Again, i re-emphasize my original post in this thread. Notice what I have bolded.<blockquote><hr>Xalmat wrote:Pet heals aren't going to be upgraded or changed to be made more powerful, which is what a percent heal would do. <B><font color=green>In the words of Lockeye, the guy in charge of Spells, it would make us too powerful.</font></b><hr></blockquote>

[XtremSummo]

<P>This is really pretty straight forward.</P> <P>You guys are right in one way: You could improve the balance between the soloability of the tank pet versus the Air pet by adding a percentage heal. The fact that the air/fire pets get such a huge heal from our heal line does indeed seem wrong and can skew pet usage a bit. Also, as you upgrade your pets your heal gets comparitively weaker... which also doesn't seem entirely right from one point of view.</P> <P>But if the percentage heal were implemented, they'd take a percentage level that would give the heal about the same value that the tank pet gets healed now. The end effect would be massively nerfing the air/fire pet heal... not improving the tank pet heal.</P> <P>Why would that happen I hear you ask? Well... because with the tank pet right now, solo conjurors at just about every level can take on more difficult mobs than just about every other class. The tank pet does in fact enable conjurors to take down things that you can't even start soloing with the air pet. The tank pet also makes it possible to XP grind on mobs that the air pet just cannot stand up to at all. There are some things that you can solo better with the air pet... but the really tough mobs can only be soloed by the tank pet (yellow^^^ heroics, blue named ^^^ heroics etc). There's the odd exception to this but for most of the conjurors life, the really tough mobs come down best with the tank pet.</P> <P>If you increase the heal for a tank pet - whether that be by implementing a percentage heal that gives a higher heal on tank pets... or by implementing separate pet heal lines for tank pets or whatever.... then the solo ability of the conjuror will be much better... and we're already just about the best soloers in the game. We'd be able to take on even tougher opponents and we're already able to take on mobs to an incredibly high level.</P> <P>This is what Xalmat and the Devs mean when they say improving the pet heal would make us overpowered. </P> <P>When push comes to shove - this suggestion would most likely just nerf fire and air pet usage. We're already able to take on opponents that just about no other class can solo, there's really no way the devs will put us even further ahead of the crowd. That would leave the percentage heal being pitched at a static level for the tank pet at present and the air/fire heal being radically dropped, which helps nobody really.</P> <P>X</P> <P> </P>

[StaticLex]

<DIV> <HR> This is what Xalmat and the Devs mean when they say improving the pet heal would make us overpowered. <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>I don't know about others but I never said the pet heal needs to be improved.  However, the spell line can be altered to be more useable without becoming unbalanced.</P> <P> </P> <P>1.)  The heal amounts are worthless during combat, monsters hit for that much damage or more in a single swing.</P> <P> </P> <P>2.)  Out of combat health regeneration blows away these weak heals so they're hardly worth doing, even between fights.</P> <P> </P> <P>3.)  If your pet is seriously mangled you are more efficient to Sacrifice it and re-summon, both in and out of combat.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Like I said, increase the heal amount and the re-use timer while maintaining a ratio of heal/time that doesn't break the game.  The spell line will enjoy greater usability and we can all go home happy.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>By the way, if this Xalmat guy re-posts another attempted discussion ending developer quote while simultaneously adding absolutely nothing constructive to the thread I am going to reach through the monitor and slap him stupid.</P><p>Message Edited by StaticLex on <span class=date_text>12-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 AM</span>

[Mordith]

<div></div>While I hate to admit it, I do agree that we would be made too powerful.  Therefore, the only way to institute this would be to reduce our power elsewhere.  That is something I would be categorically against.

[XtremSummo]

<DIV>StaticLex,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd disagree strongly with your points and your idea to be honest. Your stance is that the present heals have no use. Your idea was a 5K heal on a 10 minute recast - or perhaps stated more generally - a heal for ca 50% of the def stance tank pet for your level. There's some details of why I disagree further down... but consider this for a moment:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>If the present heals are basically worthless as you've said - then any change that would make the heals useable will improve our performance in some way. The 'more useable' heal you suggest would make us better at stuff that we're already top of the pile in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, Conjurors are pretty much the best soloists in game both in terms of XP/hour and in terms of being able to take on big heroics and quest mobs. Any improvement to our solo performance is frankly unwarranted - which is why it would be overpowered.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Your argument really can't work. The idea of a change that would be balance neutral but still be a major posiutive change just cannot exist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also disagree with your basic premises though. You say heals are worthless during combat - but in fact they aren't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>There is plenty of content out there that you can only tackle well if you heal the pet during combat. I solo really difficult content for XP grind a lot. With a mix of healing and damage I can keep my tank pet up long enough to beat the mob without the pet dying or needing to recast. Healing power is often the basis of this. This is because enough healing often gives time for me to kill the mob outright or for my stifle and stun to recycle and finish the fight. It's useful for taking down the mobs with a single pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I don't heal at all during these battles, then my pet will usually die during the battle. I can then root and recast - but this takes a good bit longer which makes the XP rate much slower. It's also more dangerous as the transfered aggro from the pet dying or being sacrificed means that the pet may not get aggro back quickly enough after the recast. There can be problems with the root not sticking too, which usually leaves me in serious trouble and over time this leads to too much lost time and energy to dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When using the air pet in groups too, he will occasionally grab aggro enough that you need to chuck a heal in now and then to keep him alive long enough for the group's tank to regain aggro again. You don't want the pet to die and transfer its aggro to you because that's going to get you killed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, when using the tank pet in a group as an off-tank, being able to heal him is often key to him holding up long enough to do the job of holding the add until the group is ready to handle it. It's not often that I use the tank pet like this of course - just very specific content in occasional groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing between fights isn't often necessary as you say - if the pet has taken lots of damage then recasting is quicker. But there are times when the pet has just taken a little damage when adding a quick heal on top of the pet's regen helps reduce downtime.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I certainly use my heal a fair bit all round as it stands. I couldn't call it useless in combat by any means. There's content I do and situations in which the heal is the key to success.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So then I look for reasons why your massive heal would be better. I don't have to look far actually, because I have the caduceus so I have a good idea of just how often a massive heal on a long retimer is useful.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesn't really help with XP grinding mobs because the re-use timer is too long. If you need to use the heal on the mobs you're fighting, then you can't wait 10 minutes between each mob if you're XPing from them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesn't really help with grouping with the Air Pet as the odd heal with the present heals is enough there. If the tank hasn't regained aggro after that, then any amount of healing isn't going to help as the pet will die anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would help with the occasional off-tanking by the earth pet in groups, which we don't do all too often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Primarily then, it would make it easier for Conjurors to kill even tougher single-kill Heroic and named mobs. The sort you'd kill for quests or for master chests etc.... And Conjurors already kill those better than just about any other class. If we get better at it than we already are, then we'd be overpowered.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again.. the change ends up improving our performance in precisely the area where we need least help. We'd be tackling even bigger and tougher mobs and classes that are less accomplished soloers would have good reason to complain about such a change I think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>12-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV>People...you seem to be missing a important point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can allready solo heroics by simply using sacrofice and resummong ourpet and using root.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that is a HECK of a lot more unbalancing then an improved pet heal, why not ask them to remove our ability to do this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the power cost of a root, i can send a pet in with no buffs continualy untill im our of power to root.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The pet heal im proposing is about 4x the power cost of a root, with a slightly longer recast then root.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, if you add in my pet heal, then lets see how it effects people using the kamakazi pet method:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>none.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one would ever heal their earth pet when attempting to use the above method to kill heroics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally have never herd of any conjuror kill a heroic mob by any other method than</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A) Kamakazi pet tactic (usually air or earth)</DIV> <DIV>B) Use air pet in pure offensive mode, stun stifle, and root with your stuns are down, call pet back till stuns refreash, and repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also hear that one you get the high level snare, this become spossible to snake kite them in a sence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know what? None of these stratagies make use of pet healing, and if they strengthed the heal as i suggestied, they still wouldnt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The people who are strongly against the pet heal improvment either love you use these two tactics, and dont want to see them removed or restrictied, or are unawear of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally dont use the kamakazie tactic because it feels like an exploit, and it does take quite a long while, but usually is successful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, i would like to pull out a quote for Xal, but im too lazy to find it. The gist was Moor said that some classes will infact beable to solo heroics, though we will not be making improvments to allow all classes to solo heroics. Like a wizard might beable to take down a 50^^^, where as a guardian likely would not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it appears our dev quotes (if i wasnt to lazy to find mine lol) kind of cancle eachother out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill go see if i can find that post, it was towards the end of the LU 13, about the same time as your quote i belive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I personally have never herd of any conjuror kill a heroic mob by any other method than</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>A) Kamakazi pet tactic (usually air or earth)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>B) Use air pet in pure offensive mode, stun stifle, and root with your stuns are down, call pet back till stuns refreash, and repeat.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any strategy based around pets dying during the battle includes considerable risk. You get the aggro built up transferred to yourself and when your new pet goes in you'll find yourself taking aggro and we really aren't built to deal with that at all against tough heroics. If you're trying to repeatedly send in air pets in offensive, then it has nothing to taunt with and you'll quickly find yourself being clobbered by the mob. Even sending in tank pet in def mode will eventually end up with you taking aggro and the pet being unable to get it back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any strategy based around rooting is also laden with risk, not least because the roots don't always stick - but also because there's extra aggro built up from the rooting too, which makes it tougher for a pet to regain aggro afterwards and it takes a long while to do. Root based tactics also make using swarm pets extremely dangerous, so a good portion of your damage goes down the drain too because you can't really use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you plan to stifle/stun, then root and wait until they refresh again, without you or your pet taking any damage, then you have to add so much extra buffer time in to make sure that the mob is seamlessly held - plus you need to allow enough still stunned time after the root lands so that your pet can move away far enough to not be hit. This isn't really a workable strategy for anything other than very occasional mobs - and I doubt it'd work at all to be frank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you seriously improve the pet heal, then you get around all of these difficulties. You'd be able to go up against the mobs without worrying about transferred aggro, roots not sticking, perfect timing etc etc... As it is, you seriously underestimate the power of soloing with the tank pet. Certainly at high levels but also to a lesser extent at lower levels too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can assure you that I do regular XP grinding at the moment at level 55 by killing the ^^^ heroic giant soldier types out at Giant Field in PoF by going toe-to-toe using the tank pet. That's only possible with a decent pet heal I reckon - I don't believe you could do it for XP grind with any other tactic. I soloed just about all of level 50-51 against white ^^^ Heroic giants in Shifting Sands and continued against them and the white^^^ Heroic sentinels of anuk to get to level 52. I eat blue ^^^ heroics for dinner without even needing to really try hard. I've killed blue <EM>named</EM> ^^^ Heroics using the tank pet too and my record so far has been to solo 30% of level in an hour (without XP potions) and more normal rates of 21% per hour... all with the tank pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a belief among some conjurors that the best way to go is always the air pet, but in my opinion those conjurors are missing a lot of tricks. If you buy into that - then maybe the heal isn't useful... but if you buy into that then you're missing out on a lot of tactics and a lot of different ways to play your conjuror. Don't buy into the hype and learn to play well with your tank pet and you'd be surprised what you can do. Whether you buy into it or not, those of us using the tank pet for the tougher heroics are doing really well right now and improving the pet heal would seriously overpower us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>12-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 AM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XtremSummons wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I personally have never herd of any conjuror kill a heroic mob by any other method than</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>A) Kamakazi pet tactic (usually air or earth)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>B) Use air pet in pure offensive mode, stun stifle, and root with your stuns are down, call pet back till stuns refreash, and repeat.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any strategy based around pets dying during the battle includes considerable risk. You get the aggro built up transferred to yourself and when your new pet goes in you'll find yourself taking aggro and we really aren't built to deal with that at all against tough heroics. If you're trying to repeatedly send in air pets in offensive, then it has nothing to taunt with and you'll quickly find yourself being clobbered by the mob. Even sending in tank pet in def mode will eventually end up with you taking aggro and the pet being unable to get it back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any strategy based around rooting is also laden with risk, not least because the roots don't always stick - but also because there's extra aggro built up from the rooting too, which makes it tougher for a pet to regain aggro afterwards and it takes a long while to do. Root based tactics also make using swarm pets extremely dangerous, so a good portion of your damage goes down the drain too because you can't really use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you plan to stifle/stun, then root and wait until they refresh again, without you or your pet taking any damage, then you have to add so much extra buffer time in to make sure that the mob is seamlessly held - plus you need to allow enough still stunned time after the root lands so that your pet can move away far enough to not be hit. This isn't really a workable strategy for anything other than very occasional mobs - and I doubt it'd work at all to be frank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you seriously improve the pet heal, then you get around all of these difficulties. You'd be able to go up against the mobs without worrying about transferred aggro, roots not sticking, perfect timing etc etc... As it is, you seriously underestimate the power of soloing with the tank pet. Certainly at high levels but also to a lesser extent at lower levels too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Im sorry... i dont wish to insult you, but your ability to understand simple statments is a tad low. The heal is weaker then minor healing. Just try to let your pet tank a heroic with minor healing...it isnt going to happen, especially if you are using power to dps and heal pet, you can not gather enough power to take down a heroic in such fashion unless you have every power regeneration item that stacks, and if you have all that gear, then you should beable to take down a heroic with easy, just would take a while. Also, if it werea % heal, i seriously doubt that it could keep up with heroic damage unless your pet was of master quality. The average player has adept1 or 3, they would most likely never beable to go toe to toe with the mob using their earth pet and heal, and still have time or power to heal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can assure you that I do regular XP grinding at the moment at level 55 by killing the ^^^ heroic giant soldier types out at Giant Field in PoF by going toe-to-toe using the tank pet. That's only possible with a decent pet heal I reckon - I don't believe you could do it for XP grind with any other tactic. I soloed just about all of level 50-51 against white ^^^ Heroic giants in Shifting Sands and continued against them and the white^^^ Heroic sentinels of anuk to get to level 52. I eat blue ^^^ heroics for dinner without even needing to really try hard. I've killed blue <EM>named</EM> ^^^ Heroics using the tank pet too and my record so far has been to solo 30% of level in an hour (without XP potions) and more normal rates of 21% per hour.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>I need info such as your pet's quality, your heals quality, and your defensive stance's quality, also, your swarm pet's quality, as well as an other primary damage abilities that give the most damage for the power used.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>The fact your missing out on is the extremely high power cost the % heal would have. It should leave you with little power to dps with, especially not enough to take down a ^^^ solo. The current heal uses very little power, but also returns a less then acceptible heal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>There is a belief among some conjurors that the best way to go is always the air pet, but in my opinion those conjurors are missing a lot of tricks. If you buy into that - then maybe the heal isn't useful... but if you buy into that then you're missing out on a lot of tactics and a lot of different ways to play your conjuror. Don't buy into the hype and learn to play well with your tank pet and you'd be surprised what you can do. Whether you buy into it or not, those of us using the tank pet for the tougher heroics are doing really well right now and improving the pet heal would seriously overpower us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Actually, improving the pet heal might hinder your ability to solo heroics with ease. You would be expending much more power when healing the pet then you currently do, and this might reduce your ability to deal damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Also, if your killing heroics with ease, and have almost all master1's or adept3's, your not in the norm. You should beable to handle heroics if you have all masters or adept3's...denying the people who cant aford or find the rarest spell qaulities if a tad selfish.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Mainstream, most conjurors using app4-adept1 with the occasional adept3 can not take down heroics that are white+ for the majority of the game using the pet tank + heal tactic currently. Your considering balancing the game towards the top tier of quality, insted of the middle-road. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Changing the heal to a % heal or making it compairible to minor healing will not allow the average conjuror to solo heroics or replace tanks in a group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Toodles!<BR>

[XtremSummo]

<P>I'm nothing super-special in terms of my spells and gear. I have no master spells other than the training spells that everybody gets. I have some key adept 3 spells but by no means all of them. Most of them are adept1. I have no items that give in-combat power regen. The only fabled item I have is the Caduceus which I only recently acquired and hardly ever use, since it has a 15 minute recast timer on it. That's a one off heal for real emergencies only.</P> <P>Power really isn't the limiting factor in these solo battles on the whole. Focus on strong intelligence and your power and damage will be good enough if your tactics are good. It only takes a few well placed heals to make a great deal of difference. I think your impression is that you need to heal your tank pet a lot to be able to get him to tank well. This isn't really the case. Between vehement stone, stuns and stifles it is already possible to defend the pet a great deal.  For most of these battles you just need enough to get your pet through to the second round of stuns and stifles. That's usually enough to win it for you.</P> <P>Finally, of course heroics should be balanced to the top end of the class ability. It shouldn't be seen as being the norm that solo players can take down heroics with Apprentice spells. You should probably be able to take down some (but not all) green heroics with Adepts, some white heroics with Adept 3s and perhaps some yellow heroics with Masters. As it is, conjurors are a bit ahead of the curve. If you introduce, as per your suggestion, a 10% heal for the adept1 I guarantee that many more conjurors would be able to solo tough heroics - even if it had a chunky power cost.</P> <P>I know that just after the combat update went in, I was in my early thirties and only had a couple of adept 3 spells (earth pet was one) because nobody had taken advantage of the increased rare drops as yet. I was able to solo some green ^^^ heroics back then with mostly adept1 spells and some appIVs. I'm certain that a couple of extra power heals, even at relatively high power cost would have made a big difference. If anything it should be easier now since a few other fixes have come through since then. Adding 10% heals would have made it a doddle.</P> <P>However you try to phrase it, your argument is based upon the heal not being useful - which it actually is as it enables many soloing conjurors to acheive things that, for example, you seem unable to do. Secondly, you say your idea will stop the 'misuse' of the air pet for soloing things such as heroics... when actually the earth pet is the better pet for soloing heroics in my experience - having soloed many more than you it would seem.</P> <P>To be frank, from what you've said I don't think you really understand how to solo a conjuror well. You may find that lack of skill is more at fault than lack of healing power or badly balanced healing. Perhaps if you'd listen more to the experience of people who sem to regularly do what you claim to be impossible... then you'd have more success doing these things yourself, without messing up the balance of our class...</P> <P>X</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XtremSummons wrote:<BR> <P>I'm nothing super-special in terms of my spells and gear. I have no master spells other than the training spells that everybody gets. I have some key adept 3 spells but by no means all of them. Most of them are adept1. I have no items that give in-combat power regen. The only fabled item I have is the Caduceus which I only recently acquired and hardly ever use, since it has a 15 minute recast timer on it. That's a one off heal for real emergencies only.</P> <P>Power really isn't the limiting factor in these solo battles on the whole. Focus on strong intelligence and your power and damage will be good enough if your tactics are good. It only takes a few well placed heals to make a great deal of difference. I think your impression is that you need to heal your tank pet a lot to be able to get him to tank well. This isn't really the case. Between <FONT color=#ff0000>vehement stone</FONT>, <FONT color=#ff0000>stuns and stifles</FONT> it is already possible to defend the pet a great deal.  For most of these battles you just need enough to get your pet through to the second round of stuns and stifles. That's usually enough to win it for you.</P> <P>I<FONT color=#66ff99> just want to point out, the the highlighted skills are fine at higher levels, but not in the early and middle game. It's pritty much impossible to kill a ^^^white at level 38 with a adept1 or 3 pet and spells.</FONT></P> <P>Finally, of course heroics should be balanced to the top end of the class ability. It shouldn't be seen as being the norm that solo players can take down heroics with Apprentice spells. You should probably be able to take down some (but not all) green heroics with Adepts, some white heroics with Adept 3s and perhaps some yellow heroics with Masters. As it is, conjurors are a bit ahead of the curve. If you introduce, as per your suggestion, a 10% heal for the adept1 I guarantee that many more conjurors would be able to solo tough heroics - even if it had a chunky power cost.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>I NEVER SAID that people with app1-adept1 should beable to solo heroics, stop misquoting me. What i did say was your assuming that the average conjuror can solo heroics across the levels. When i say heroics im not talking about green or blue, im talking about white+. What i said is the average conjruror has mostly app4 and adept1 with the occasional adept3. It is very difficult to solo a white heroic using these skills under level 40, without resorting to the kamakazi pet method.</FONT></P> <P>I know that just after the combat update went in, I was in my early thirties and only had a couple of adept 3 spells (earth pet was one) because nobody had taken advantage of the increased rare drops as yet. I was able to solo some green ^^^ heroics back then with mostly adept1 spells and some appIVs. I'm certain that a couple of extra power heals, even at relatively high power cost would have made a big difference. If anything it should be easier now since a few other fixes have come through since then. Adding 10% heals would have made it a doddle. <FONT color=#66ff99>Greens...thats all i have to say to that :smileywink:</FONT></P> <P>However you try to phrase it, your argument is based upon the heal not being useful - which it actually is as it enables many soloing conjurors to acheive things that, for example, you seem unable to do. Secondly, you say your idea will stop the 'misuse' of the air pet for soloing things such as heroics... when actually the earth pet is the better pet for soloing heroics in my experience - having soloed many more than you it would seem. <FONT color=#66ff99>Again your misquoting me. Please stop that. I said soloing solo mobs, the air pet is better in almost any situation. I never said air was the best for soloing heroics. I never said Misues either, i said the risk of using air vs earth is not as evident as it should be when using air in offensive stance.</FONT></P> <P>To be frank, from what you've said I don't think you really understand how to solo a conjuror well. You may find that lack of skill is more at fault than lack of healing power or badly balanced healing. Perhaps if you'd listen more to the experience of people who sem to regularly do what you claim to be impossible... then you'd have more success doing these things yourself, without messing up the balance of our class...</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>Ha....oh thats rich. Ok ill bite. I dont know how to play my character, oh, why, i cant belive i didnt see that before. im in awe of your intelectual astutness.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>/Sarcasm off</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>No, it's not my  lack of skill. I dont expect to be soloing heroics honestly, but for some reason you seem to think thats my goal?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>My goal is to beable to fill in as an effective tank in a group situation if the need arizes, the pet heal would help in this area, but my real goal is to make the pet heal useful for the earth pet.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99><FONT color=#66ff99>Dont sit here and lie to me that your pet heal</FONT> is even 1/4 of the damage that a heroic mob does in one melee hit. It's worthless in it's current form, it's efficent as far as power goes, but it doesnt heal enough to warrent it's use. The only time i would ever cast this is if every other combat spell i could use was grey. Admit it, it simply doesnt heal enough to waiste 2 seconds casting it on the earth pet, but it provides a way to bypass the air pet's lowered defense while using offensive stance. Does not make sence.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>Make it less power efficent, but boost it's effectiveness, and i bet you will have a tad more difficulty keeping your power up to kill heroics. Win win situation eh :smileywink:</FONT></P> <P>X</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Toodles!<BR></DIV>

[StaticLex]

<DIV> <HR> Your idea was a 5K heal on a 10 minute recast - or perhaps stated more generally - a heal for ca 50% of the def stance tank pet for your level. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whoa, whoa, whoa, I never said this.  My Myrmidon at level 60 has nearly 13,000 HP.  Nowhere did I, nor would I, propose a 6000+ point heal.  Like I said, I don't know what the exact numbers would be but probably in the 2000 or 3000 HP area for the T6 heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> If the present heals are basically worthless as you've said - then any change that would make the heals useable will improve our performance in some way. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a silly point.  If the developers thought this way we'd NEVER see any new content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> The idea of a change that would be balance neutral but still be a major posiutive change just cannot exist. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the tird time, I am not seeking a MAJOR positive change.  I am suggesting a simple change to make one spell line as usable as any other spell line that we have.  This is class balance, this is what game developers deal with.  It is possible or we wouldn't have the game to play in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> <DIV>So then I look for reasons why your massive heal would be better. I don't have to look far actually, because I have the caduceus so I have a good idea of just how often a massive heal on a long retimer is useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>It doesn't really help with XP grinding mobs because the re-use timer is too long. If you need to use the heal on the mobs you're fighting, then you can't wait 10 minutes between each mob if you're XPing from them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesn't really help with grouping with the Air Pet as the odd heal with the present heals is enough there. If the tank hasn't regained aggro after that, then any amount of healing isn't going to help as the pet will die anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would help with the occasional off-tanking by the earth pet in groups, which we don't do all too often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Primarily then, it would make it easier for Conjurors to kill even tougher single-kill Heroic and named mobs. The sort you'd kill for quests or for master chests etc.... And Conjurors already kill those better than just about any other class. If we get better at it than we already are, then we'd be overpowered.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>OK first you say a bigger heal would overpower the class.  And here SOE themselves put the heal stick in the game.  And now you tell me the big heal wouldn't be that great anyway because the stick isn't that great.  You flip flop more than John Kerry.  :p  But you did make my point for me yourself with these statements:</P> <P>1.)  <EM>It doesn't really help with XP grinding mobs because the re-use timer is too long. If you need to use the heal on the mobs you're fighting, then you can't wait 10 minutes between each mob if you're XPing from them.</EM></P> <P>This is EXACTLY why a bigger, slower heal spell wouldn't be unbalanced.  It will not allow people to use it to powerlevel themselves.</P> <P>2.)  <EM>It doesn't really help with grouping with the Air Pet as the odd heal with the present heals is enough there. If the tank hasn't regained aggro after that, then any amount of healing isn't going to help as the pet will die anyway.</EM></P> <P>OK, so there is no difference between small heals and big heals in this scenario, why make the point.</P> <P>3.)  <EM>It would help with the occasional off-tanking by the earth pet in groups, which we don't do all too often.</EM></P> <P>That's right we don't do it too often because anyone who is using an earth pet in a group for the rare opportunity to off-tank a mob has no idea how to play the class properly in the first place.  :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, I still think the spell line can use a change.  They put the percent heal stick in the game, if it would have broken the class like everyone seems to think then they wouldn't have done it.</P>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV>Statixlex,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the record I find the heal stick a bad thing too.  It does enable us to solo massively more difficult mobs than we used to and I'm pretty sure it will be hit with the nerf stick soon enough. Nevertheless, the point would be that by making conjuror pet heals work this way, this would no longer be limited to the level 53+ conjurors who'd spent hours camping the drop - they'd all have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point was that the stick is good in precisely the area of soloing that we're already ahead of the curve in. It would put us even further ahead of the curve = unbalance us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The stick wouldn't be good in other areas of play.... so losing our present heals for the stick would be negative there. All round it doesn't end up well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said in my first post here, right after the combat update I too proposed a percentage heal. Percentage heals do make sense at first sight and the idea has an intuitive feel to it. But after really playing the class post-CU it became clear that we really don't need any more healing power for the tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eyes of Truth,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't separate the effects of changed heals. You may want the heal to be changed so that the earth pet can tank for small groups with the conjuror healing, but that heal power would also make conjurors too powerful in other areas. I don't think p[eople must want to solo heroics all the time... cos they don't. But as a measure of balance, if you are proposing something that makes it easy to solo content that should not be soloable - then it's not a good thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may not think that by proposing percentage heals you're saying that you want people to be soloing heroics easily... but the point is that you would be making precisely that possible. Making the pet heal better on tank pet = making heroics more easily soloable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want the pet to tank for a small group that doesn't have a tank, then put a healer in the group and have them heal the pet while others coordinate stuns/stifles. It works pretty good. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point of all the counter-arguments would be that the heals don't need to be better. We achieve better than we should in solo already. We have great group ability. We can even tank for small groups well already as long as there's a healer in the group - just as tank classes usually need healers too. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is it you feel we cannot do that this new heal should enable?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XtremSummons wrote:<BR> <DIV>[snip] Eyes of Truth,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't separate the effects of changed heals. You may want the heal to be changed so that the earth pet can tank for small groups with the conjuror healing, but that heal power would also make conjurors too powerful in other areas. I don't think p[eople must want to solo heroics all the time... cos they don't. But as a measure of balance, if you are proposing something that makes it easy to solo content that should not be soloable - then it's not a good thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Ha...halarious. I just attempted to solo a white con using my master1 pet in master 1 defense, using my pet heal and stuns and damage inbetween thoughs. Got the mob to 60%, then was forced to kamakazi kill the mob using earth pets in defensive stance, and using my root. Here is a hint... the root has a 10 second snare... which easily gives u time to reroot the mob solong as your not using dots and you tell your pet to back off once root brakes. Oh, btw, by the time the mob was down to 60% hp when pet had died...i was at 40% power. No way in hell could i have healed pet and stuned/dpsed with 2000 power. And im using spells that most people dont have access to. I used the exact stratagy you said.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>So, why dont you mentor down to 38 and try that same mob, lets see if you dont have to resort to the resummoning pet tactic. You dont get thoughs lovely spells like <FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#66ff99>Vehement</FONT> </FONT>Stone </FONT><FONT color=#66ff99>and Blazing Presence till later, which im guessing help your heroic soloing greatly...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>We have had the pet heal since level 14, but we cant effectively solo heroics till 40+. Little math for you, that means we have more levels where we cant solo heroics then when we can, but you apparently ignore the 14-39 levels issues with a faulty heal infavor of not overpowering us later on, which it wouldnt.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may not think that by proposing percentage heals you're saying that you want people to be soloing heroics easily... but the point is that you would be making precisely that possible. Making the pet heal better on tank pet = making heroics more easily soloable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>See above, also, i just found out something halarious. I have more mitigation than my pet. i was hit for melee damage for around 300-315 occasionally when using the kamakazi method, but my pet was constantly hit for 350+. So, if you think someone using minor healing could keep a mage alive while being hit by a heroic, your crazy :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want the pet to tank for a small group that doesn't have a tank, then put a healer in the group and have them heal the pet while others coordinate stuns/stifles. It works pretty good. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>This works, but the priest has to heal ALOT more since the pet has absolutly no mitigation. That is where out heal comes in, it IS our pets mitigation. The way it makes us less effective then a reall tank is that our mitigation costs us power, only problem now is it is only about 10% mitigation, when it should be atleast 25% or so. If a Guaridan has 50% mitigation, and gets hit with a 1000 damage attack and only takes 500 damage, priest can heal this easily. Pet gets hit with same attack and takes 1000 damage. Not easy to heal. But if out pet heal can heal for about 400, then the priest has to heal the remaining 600. Not as efficent ashealing a real tank, especially since our pet heal will only heal about every other blow, but much better then it currently is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point of all the counter-arguments would be that the heals don't need to be better. We achieve better than we should in solo already. We have great group ability. We can even tank for small groups well already as long as there's a healer in the group - just as tank classes usually need healers too. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>The problem is, when we "fill in" for a tank, the priest can hardly ever keep up with the damage incoming because the pet has NO mitigation. If possible, any mage that could put out enough agro could easily tank better then our pet, so long as the priest heals as soon as mage takes damage. Isnt that sad, that a mage has more mitigation then our earth pet? That is where our heal comes in, it should average about 30% mitigation for our petvs heroic damage. Not enough to heal the damage that the pet recives, but enough to "shave" off a little, to allow healers to heal. We could not keep up with heroic damage on our pet with a 800hp heal at 50+, not with how hard they hit the pet. If everyone in the group uses stuns, thats a different story, as you really wouldnt need a priest in that case either. the thing about healing you dont seem to understand is efficency is the major concern. If a priest has to heal something with alot of hp but no mitigation (except brawlers since they have increased avoidance), then the priest is loosing total healing potiential. I know this because i play a warden. I have tried the pet-tanking thing with a conjuror friend of mine. On a normal tank with about 45%+ mitigation, i was abile to heal him for the fight and only use about 15% power on average. When we started using the pet, i was using 40% power to keep him alive since he was taking large ammounts of damage. If Conjurors could heal their pet enough to take off about 30% of the damage the pet was taking, i would have only used about 20-25% power. Less effective then a real tank, but not anywhere as bad as before.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is it you feel we cannot do that this new heal should enable?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Allowing us to tank in a group, and be less effective then a normal tank, but much closer than we are currently if we upgrade our heal. It's just like the paladin and shadowknight, our pet heal is part of our ability to tank, but it's not enough to survive alone unaided. Devs need to give the pet some mitigation or they need to improve the heal to replace the lack of mitigation if they ever want the earth pet to serve a purpose in a group situation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Toodles!<BR>

[XtremSummo]

<P>My apologies - your goal must have completely missed me in the earlier posts. Reading back through your posts, I have to say that I still have trouble finding this point about the goal being to allow conjurors to tank for groups.</P> <P>Conjurors should not be able to tank for groups against content of serious difficulty. There are tank classes for that purpose and secondary tank classes too. The balance issues of trying to make it otherwise would be serious.</P> <P>Conjuror pets can make decent tanks for easy content with plenty of support if there are no real tank classes available. Throughout my conjuror's life I've acted as stand-in tank for duos with my Wizard other half and a good few trios from guilds I've been in when getting quests done and such. The pets work well as long as you don't go up against anything too tough. Make sure the group is using all single target defensive buffs on the pet, make sure your group uses its stuns in sequence, make sure both you and your healer if there is one are healing the pet and you can take on a great deal.</P> <P>When I duo with my other half, as we have since we both started together, my pet tanks. I use the heal often to keep the pet alive long enough for us to kill the mob - and it's very useful. At the end, both myself and my partner have our health left complete, so the tank has served its purpose: keeping the aggro while we delivered the DPS. The tank pet is often near dead by the end.. but I can sacrifice or just recast the pet and off we go again. </P> <P>The heal only needs to save a few hits worth of HP during the whole battle and that keeps the pet standing that bit longer that we can finish him off with our DPS without getting beat upon ourselves. For a real tank, he wants to be swiftly back to full health after the fight... so you want the healing to keep up with the damage.. but the pet as a secondary tank shouldn't do that really. The pet is also disposable, so recasting is not a big issue.</P> <P>The pet is, and should be, a poor substitute for a tank. My partner has to limit his DPS at times because the pet won't keep aggro otherwise. I have to put casting time into healing to keep the pet up, otherwise we go down quickly. He has little mitigation, except my buffs and the single target tank buffs from my wiz mate... but it's mostly enough to keep him alive through the battle, which is what we need. The pet is not good at dealing with adds and you need to choose your content wisely.</P> <P>For this situation too I think you'd be wrong in saying that the heal is useless. I use it regularly for precisely this purpose... but if you're expecting to ever make the conjuror pet a decent tank for normal group play, then you'd be expecting something that would mess up class balance. Tank and Secondary tank classes would be up in arms and rightly so.</P> <P>X</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV> <DIV>First off, what the heck is a secondary tank? As far as i know, that is what our pets are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All fighters are tanks, and yes they should allways perform better then a earth pet of equal quality.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Conjurors should not be able to tank for groups against content of serious difficulty.", i agree to this point. Your average heroic mob does not fall into this catagory. Named mobs or instance mobs that are ment to be extremely difficult should not be tankable by a earth pet. But your average run of the mill heroic should, provided you have a healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not suggesting to give us a extremely awsome pet heal, just one that works as  pseudo mitigation for our pet, enough to shave off some damage that heroics deal, average heroics not your named ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a conjuror decides to go completely defensive, as in using their tank pet in defensive and primarily focusing on heals, they should come close to a real tank's defensive capability, since their dps is lowered to fighter levels. I would say they should have about 4/5th's the capability of a equally geared tank. This means that conj using pet+defensive+heal of same quality as the fighter's skills or armor should perform 80% of how well the tank performs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a Guaridan is wearing treasured armor, using adept1 defensive stance, and adept1 taunts, should need 20% less healing then a conjuror's adpet1 pet in adept1 defensive stance with a conjuror using adept1 heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If guaridan took 500 damage from a 1000 damage attack, the pet would take 1000 damage. If conjuror used a 500 hp pet heal, then pet takes 500 damage. Then the priest would heal the excess damage. Now, with the recast of the conjuror's heal, the pet is gona take the full 1000 damage in the next hit. On average, the pet will not recive a heal from the conjuror every other hit by the mob, so the conjuror is actually healing the pet on average of 1/2 of what the heal is listed. So, the conjuror is shaving off about 250 hp, or 25% mitigation, of the mob's attack, where as the guardian is taking off 50% every time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian is still superior, but pet is still acceptable. While i used guardian forthis, you could stick any other fighter in here, just that insted of mitigating, the brawlers would avoid every other hit about, and the paladin and shadowknight woudl heal and ward themselves. Hey..wow...look at that... paladins can tank... and heal...wow...not only can they heal themselves.... they can heal others <gasp> lets get out our pitch forks and get a mob going lol:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins and Shadowknight's ability to heal is factored into their tankability, so why not do the same with the Conjuror? We should still fall below the paladin/SK in tankability, but we should be a bit closer then we are now. Their single target heal has a lower recast then ours, heals more, AND can be used on other players. I play a paladin, and i think the pet heal of the conjuror should atleast match the paladin's heal. Paladin's have superior defense compaired to the earth pet, but they can heal more, and heal others, also they can ward. I think it would be a good change to give the Conjuror's pet heal the same casting time and recast time and healing potiential of the paladin's heal. The paladin's heal is hardly overpowering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyway...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing i would love to see implemented, is if our tank pets could have a '/guard player' option, which would let them defend and absorb some of the ally's damage. That would give the pet a good use for assisting your group's tank in situations where your tank needs some extra help. If they did this, i could care less about the pet heal, as this would give the earth pet an effective use while grouping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV></DIV>

[ClawHammr]

<P>All I can say is be sure you get the Summoners Staff....others have said it but i will say it too - This Staff heals for 40% (exactly what OP is wanting- a percentage heal ) so we get the best of both worlds. And at level 60, if you are able to locate Master 1 Rebuild Servant , you can heal pet for 739. That Staff has made all the difference in taking down certain Mobs- its like a 2nd chance for the Pet , and way better than Minions Intervention (heals for less than 900 at Master level 60).</P> <P>Minions Intervention used to be a on fast recast timer which made it very effective. Now its not that much help, even as Master I. But I will still use it ,of course. Basically amounts to a free pet Heal for me.</P> <P>Myrmidon Adept 3, level 60</P> <P>Summoners Staff : 3,333 (15 min recast-basically one shot per fight-better time it right )</P> <P>Rebuild Servant Master 1: 739 (fast recast) Use at will</P> <P>Minions Intervention Master I :800+ (slow recast-most fights over long before this becomes usable again, especially soloing)</P> <P>I think we have  a basically effective Healing aresenal, but Minions Intervention and the Staff are T5/T6 so doesnt do you any good if you are below that.</P>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>If a conjuror decides to go completely defensive, as in using their tank pet in defensive and primarily focusing on heals, they should come close to a real tank's defensive capability, since their dps is lowered to fighter levels. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I disagree completely with this. If a conjuror focussing on heals were able to come close to a real tank's defensive capability then class balance would be messed up. It's not just about the conjuror function balancing by losing DPS in order to heal... it's also about making major in-roads into the roles of other classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Named mobs or instance mobs that are ment to be extremely difficult should not be tankable by a earth pet. But your average run of the mill heroic should, provided you have a healer.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And then we come back to the same thing again really... we already can do this. The conjuror tank pet <EM>can</EM> tank for a group to take down a normal heroic with some care. As said before, arrange the group's stuns, stifles, interrupts and knock-backs in sequence for those that have them (which of course includes the conjuror), get the debuffs onto the mob fairly early and make sure the pet is given the single-target tanking buffs from other classes and heal him along with a healer and the tank pet can tank for pretty tough heroics. It takes good tactics and some organisation but it's perfectly possible at all levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You yourself say: "<FONT color=#66ff99>If everyone in the group uses stuns, thats a different story, as you really wouldnt need a priest in that case either.</FONT>" and you're right. Others in the group will have stuff that helps but usually need organising into using them well. This is pretty much the point that I'm making. You end up with a pretty good tank substitute for most normal content as long as everybody in the group pulls together and supports the pet. You may still have to recast the pet between fights - but a small group can take on quite tough heroics right now without the conjuror needing more healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an example, when I duo with my wizard partner now, we go up against the giants in Giant Field mostly. They're yellow ^^^ heroics to us and even without vehement stone (which doesn't refresh fast enough for all the fights), the pet will usually finish with 50%+ health... often more around 70%. So without vehement stone or caduceus, we're duoing yellow ^^^ heroics and the pet doesn't get close to dying. That's done with timed stuns, stifles and knockbacks that a conj and wizard would have at lower levels too. We both debuff with dispel magic and buff the pet. Just using all our tools together to get the pet tanking well enough to hold aggro till the mob dies. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we can do that as a duo - then you can do far better in a group. The pet doesn't stand up as well as a real tank can to any content - and rightly so - but with good tactics, care and organisation he makes a decent stand in when no tanks are available. You just have to take the time to get the group to do it right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XtremSummons wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>If a conjuror decides to go completely defensive, as in using their tank pet in defensive and primarily focusing on heals, they should come close to a real tank's defensive capability, since their dps is lowered to fighter levels. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I disagree completely with this. If a conjuror focussing on heals were able to come close to a real tank's defensive capability then class balance would be messed up. It's not just about the conjuror function balancing by losing DPS in order to heal... it's also about making major in-roads into the roles of other classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Sigh... you still dont get it... paladins heal well... not as good as a priest, but enough for usualy average heroic content. Do you consider that encroaching in the priests?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Monks and especially bruisers can match our dps while using the earth pet. Should they be nerfed then as well?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Fuyies have more burst dps then us (though recast timer keeps them in check), so should they get the nerf bat for DARING to have bigger nukes thens us?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Alot of classes have secondary rolls that work well enough to fill in for another class. Paladins heal about 3/4 as well as a real healer, but whats their limiting factor? They have less power.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Asking for a pet heal that brings our pet up to the 3/4 marker for compairision to a real tank is not that big of a change. The only real problem with our tank pet is it has zero zillch nada mitigation. That is why we have our pet heal. It needs to be a bit stronger, enough that when soloing it heals more than the average solo mob can hit, but less then 1/2 of what a normal heroic hits for. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Im not asking for our heal to be so nice that it takes almost no power and heals pet for 1/2 it's life... Realistically, it would heal pet for around 8%...or a 1% per second since it's castable every 8 seconds. Now, show me one white con ^^^ that doesnt do atleast 1% dps on you pet throught a fight, stuns or no stuns, it is gona pass up your ability to heal your pet, so then the heal is just like mitigation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Named mobs or instance mobs that are ment to be extremely difficult should not be tankable by a earth pet. But your average run of the mill heroic should, provided you have a healer.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And then we come back to the same thing again really... we already can do this. The conjuror tank pet <EM>can</EM> tank for a group to take down a normal heroic with some care. As said before, arrange the group's stuns, stifles, interrupts and knock-backs in sequence for those that have them (which of course includes the conjuror), get the debuffs onto the mob fairly early and make sure the pet is given the single-target tanking buffs from other classes and heal him along with a healer and the tank pet can tank for pretty tough heroics. It takes good tactics and some organisation but it's perfectly possible at all levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Yes, this is possible and i do it often, but the point remains, is that the healer has to expend a TON mob power keeping th pet alive vs a real tank. And the only reason for this is because the pet has no mitigation, and our pet heal only acounts for about 10% mitigation. If our pet heal was improved to provide atleast 25% mitigation, it wouldnt be such an issues for me. Habing played both the healer and the conjuror, it does not work well. As a Warden who relies on regeneration healing, my singletarget regen + group regen, which is enough to keep the worst geared tanks afloat in most situations, was not coming anywhere close to matching the damage this pet was taking. My regen was adept1 and group was master2, pet was adept3. If the devs dont want to increase the heals, then they need to add mitigation for the tank pets. Personally, i think increasing our heal is the best choice, as it doesnt embalance us as much as mitigation would.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>If they simply added 25% mitigation to the pet, that is power-free defense. but if our heal equaltes to 25% mitigation, then we have to expend power and focus on it, which is  a limiting factor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You yourself say: "<FONT color=#66ff99>If everyone in the group uses stuns, thats a different story, as you really wouldnt need a priest in that case either.</FONT>" and you're right. Others in the group will have stuff that helps but usually need organising into using them well. This is pretty much the point that I'm making. You end up with a pretty good tank substitute for most normal content as long as everybody in the group pulls together and supports the pet. You may still have to recast the pet between fights - but a small group can take on quite tough heroics right now without the conjuror needing more healing. <FONT color=#66ff99>Um, if this is true then the wizard or who ever can deal the most dps should be tanking ^^ since they do have more mitigation lol...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>No, what i ment is if you have a large group full of casters that can chain stun the mob, in which case you would want out your air pet for max dps insted of your tank pet.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an example, when I duo with my wizard partner now, we go up against the giants in Giant Field mostly. They're yellow ^^^ heroics to us and even without vehement stone (which doesn't refresh fast enough for all the fights), the pet will usually finish with 50%+ health... often more around 70%. So without vehement stone or caduceus, we're duoing yellow ^^^ heroics and the pet doesn't get close to dying. That's done with timed stuns, stifles and knockbacks that a conj and wizard would have at lower levels too. We both debuff with dispel magic and buff the pet. Just using all our tools together to get the pet tanking well enough to hold aggro till the mob dies. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Just root it, much faster and safer = ) since both of your roots have a snare, their is no worry about it closing the gap in 6 seconds. Get your fire pet out and range attack with it. Perhaps initially send in your earth pet with blazing pressence, then let it fight till procs are gone, root, cal back, and sacrofice him, get out air if u want. Unless you rely heavily on your swarm pets, this way is much fast in most instances then using pet to tank, since your not taking time to stun and such. Recomend not using dots though, as they can break root then snare in the next second. try it some time, i know my warlock can kill mobs by simply rooting, nukeing, and rerooting when it breaks. And anything a warlock can do on a single target, a wizard can do much better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we can do that as a duo - then you can do far better in a group. The pet doesn't stand up as well as a real tank can to any content - and rightly so - but with good tactics, care and organisation he makes a decent stand in when no tanks are available. You just have to take the time to get the group to do it right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>You forgot to mention that the wizard could solo them with ease so long as he watched his roots lol ...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I have allways felt that if there is anything that distinquishes conjuror from nerco is that the conjuror is the more "pet defensive" of the two. Necromancers have extra roles that they can do well, the can give HP to others for far better then our pet heal, for no power cost, just their own health (low amount) for the same recast if im not mistaken. They also get some pet attack buffs we dont recive. Also, they can revive people later on. They also have a secondary CC tool, fear, that can be useful when the situation arises, thought it can be a tad buggy lol...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a necro can perform nice "extras" such as these, what can a connjuror do? Well...sacrofice and the flameseed line lol...oh yea and COH at like...52?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have allways thought pet tanking should be the conjuror's secondary roll, something "extra" they can bring to a group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, since our pet has no mitigation and our pet heal is so low that it doesnt dent heroic damage, a priest is better off healing a mage or scout so they dont waiste power lol...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a monk btw, and i have nothing against a conjuror filling in "almost" as good but not quite. If a brawler has 35% mitigation and 65% avoidance, and the plate classes have about 40% avoidance and 55% mitigation, then the tank per should have about 25% mitigation(either applies to pet or as a result of our heals) and 25% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A tank should allways be more disirable, but the pet should still be more usefull then a scout tanking!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Meeb]

<P><FONT color=#66ff00><I><SPAN>If you are arguing for a percentage heal </SPAN></I><SPAN><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=31803" target=_blank><B><SPAN>Eyes_of_Truth</SPAN></B></A> <I>I agree with you completely </I></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><I><SPAN>Monks receive a heal that is for emergency’s at lvl 20 this is called mend and at adept 1 quality it heals for 14/15 % of the targets hp it has a 2 minute timer on recast I see this a better heal than the one we currently have as I solo with the earth pet in def stance and find our current heal does not scale enough we get a new pet ever 15 lvls and the same for the heal with every lvl gained the pet gets more hp and stronger</SPAN></I><U><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></SPAN></U><I><U><SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></U></I><I><SPAN>do the mobs we face the heal we get is stuck at the same amount with its replacement giving a bigger amount how ever this is not really enough to keep the pet up some times as some mobs with simply out damage the pets ability to keep up and we have to burn more power to keep the pet up that we would normally be used in providing damage spells.</SPAN></I></FONT></P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT></SPAN></I> </P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>From this point you can argue that this is where our stuns and root comes in allowing us to call the pet off the mob and heal it/destroy recast however our stun even when up graded lasts for 5 seconds and we have a root which to be blunt I find to be a joke which is of course as it should be as the earth pets taunts are there to keep the mob off us.</FONT></SPAN></I></P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I see our heal as a patch that is there to keep the pet up for emergency use and the above heal would suit this perfectly.</FONT></SPAN></I></P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I find it to be a false economy to root air pet in dot rinse and repeat as to me this has always sounded like suicide</FONT></SPAN></I></P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>The summoner classes are men to be the most efficient of mage classes 80 % of our damage comes form our pet thus we burn less power. We are ment to be used in long fights and in long fights we can easily out damage wiz/war (braces for flames) and are still rocking long after they have run out of power.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Our air and fire pet were not ment to be used as solo tools the air pet is ment to be used to rip though single mobs with ease and the likewise the fie pet is for groups (even if t does have a bad habit of thinking it can melee)<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></I></P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I do not argue for a percentage heal with a fast recast that we currently have as this will unbalance us</FONT></SPAN></I></P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>As I have stated if there ever came a time that our heal were to change it would be the above that I would like to see imo </FONT></SPAN></I></P> <P><I><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I apologise for the bad spelling a grammar as I am lazy and I apologise for not flaming anyone as I am not 12 :smileywink:</FONT></SPAN></I></P> <P> </P>

[GSOO]

Well, I think thr primary reason this thread was given neagtive feedback is we are already powerful. A real heal or percentage heal, will make us TOO POWERFUL and a huge target for the nerf bat. We have snuck under the radar by letting them take away mitigation. If you want a % heal farm the staff that drops in the tombs. It is its own timer and allows you a 40% pet heal. If you learn to twist stuns stiffles and roots in, you do not really need the heal. I have just started to twist in root pull the pet away...heal pet up and send it back in. I can kill solo ^^^ even con this way. Heals are good, but with out having good heals there are a bunch of stragedies that have been posted on how to still kill well.

[ClawHammr]

yeah im using the Root more too- Invested in Quagmire Master 1

[XtremSummo]

<DIV>You say your main goal is to be able to tank for a group with the Earth Pet against normal heroics - then agree that we already can do this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not that ytou want to be able to do it... you just want to be able to do it more easily, with less effort from the group and power from the healer etc. But you haven't really made a case for why it should be made easier... Why does the conjuror need to be made stronger in the group tanking role?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurors are great DPS for groups and are easily able to switch between dealing high AoE dps (fire pet) and High single target dps (air pet). We offer very useful support elements such as AoE stifle, stun, dispel debuff, power stone, emergency healing with sacrifice/offering, cure arcane.... We can eat through mobs solo with Air pet or take on massively difficult mobs solo with the Earth pet. As you agree, with care we can already tank heroics for a group if we need to, both for single target and for groups of mobs due to encounter AoE taunts on the earth pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who else should we give a good tanking role to while we're at it? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps to scouts... they do great DPS, some nice support stuff in groups... should they be able to tank well for a group too mebbe?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or how about Wizards... they have great DPS and some support stuff... maybe we should give them taunts so that they could hold aggro for a group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or healers.... let's say they should be able to hold aggro 75% as well as a tank too... oh and while we're at it, let's give them good DPS too eh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would you want to give even more to what is already one of the best and most flexible classes in the game? Meanwhile running a great risk of seriously overpowering them due to the heal finding uses in soloing etc etc.... Conjurors right now don't need improvements. We're already able to offer great contribution in several ways to groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure a percentage heal would make things a lot easier but I just don't see the <EM>need</EM> for making stuff easier for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Just had to add... my wizard partner laughed aloud when he read your suggestions as to faster killing for our duo. You really might want to consider that your tactical ideas might not be quite as good as you think they are.</DIV><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>12-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 PM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <DIV>Im starting to just wish they woudl remove the heal. I mean, heaven forbid we simple conjurors ever intude upon the holy powers of healing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remove the heal, and give conjuror's tank pet some mitigation...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>then we get power-free defensive boost for pet....yay...alot less unbalancing i suppose?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, Scouts can tank deciently in defensive stance if they can maintain agro, i know rangers can atleast, kinda likea brawler with only 50% avoidance anf 35% mitigation and about 60% of a brawler's hp. Only reason i would say that our tank pet is better is because it has aoe hate generation. Other then that, a scout easily tops our pet at tanking, since the do have better mitigation. A priest uses more power healing our tank pet than healing a mage tanking, so a scout tanking is even more effective if agro can be maintained.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards have one of the best taunts in the game infact = ) called Ice comet + Incapacitate + Ball of Incineration + sunstrike + Lapse + any other nuke you feel like casting. Cast this as the puller for your group, and it's likely that you will maintain the agro for the remainder of the fight :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, some priests do have a decient dps rating actually, not the best but not terrible, which in turn can help them hold agro, and healing with group heals is an effective way to [Removed for Content] off the mobbies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While we dont need it to be <EM>easier</EM>, we need to to have a useful purpose. Allowing our pet to have mitigation by way of our healing gives the pet heal and earth pet a sturdy roll in groups. What i find funny is that Paladin's get a single target heal that heals for more than ours, with a lower recast time, AND can be cast on others, but apparently this is not overpowered in your oppinon? or the fact that they get a group heal? and a power free super heal every 15 minutes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only time our pet tanks well is when it doesnt take damage at all (aka when mob is stuned stifled constantly), in whicih case you dont even  need a tank or a tank pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they dont want to increase the pet heal, then atleast give the app1 a base mitigation of 10%, that scales to 35% at master1, then healers wont have to waiste 1/2 their power bars trying to keep the pet alive against a normal encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Just have to add... your wizard friend using app1 root = )? cus i now sure as heck that just adept1 root is enough to keep a mob permanently away from you if used intellegently :smileywink:</DIV>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>While we dont need it to be <EM>easier</EM>, we need to to have a useful purpose.</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... and you don't think the conjuror has a useful purpose now? We're one of the most rounded and complete classes in the game!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that what is really at the root of this for you, is that you feel the Earth pet is useless. You're determined to give it a role tanking well for groups because you feel it doesn't have a role or 'purpose' elsewhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why you're playing down the fact that we can tank for a group already when necessary. That's why you're so keen that the Air pet be painted as the only useful soloing pet.... so when other conjurors point out that tank pets are much better for some kinds of soloing, you have to try to dispel this idea by firing out other tactics that you think achieve the same thing... but they don't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The earth pet does have a role that it works very well in. He tanks solo for groups of tougher mobs and does it well - and better than the air pet. He can tank heroics well solo too with conjuror support and - yes some healing too. At the level when the conjuror can take down green and easier blue heroics, many other classes can't take heroics down at all. At higher levels, the earth pet has tanked named blue heroics and yellow heroics 3 levels higher than me when soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He can tank for small groups excellently with support. My wizard (57) partner and I (5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> made 20%+ per hour XP killing 58^^^ Heroics that were yellow to us both - using my level 55 tank pet. With him tanking we could lay down our full DPS including our swarm pets and DoTs and biggest nukes without the pet losing aggro. There's virtually no risk to us - and we can kill each one in around 30 seconds. Any root tactic is much slower because you can't use half your dps. It's also riskier because even though we both have adept1+ roots they quite often don't stick and that leaves you in trouble. Kiting doesn't work well in groups and is risky and needs plenty of space too. Earth pet tanking is far and away the most efficient and least risky method of XPing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I actually solo XP at about the same rate or even better, because I can solo the same mobs at a slower rate but get more for each kill. We do the duo because my Wizard partner doesn't stand a hope of soloing that rate of XP and so needs my help. Easy, quick, low-risk XP made possible by my earth pet. We've done this throughout our levels because the Earth pet has always been pretty good for small group tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He can tank for full groups pretty well with coordination too. You have a more downtime between fights but if need be he makes it. I've often helped guildies get quest stuff done killing heroic mobs, placeholders and PH groups and also killing named heroics by using the Earth pet to tank. A little coordination and using the heal and you can achieve a great deal. The pets health and taunts make a big difference in the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He's not the best choice for tanking full groups on XP grind... but he's not meant to be. He has plenty of purpose and use in the above roles. I can see why you'd want to put in a better heal to make this possible... but with the above roles and single target dps and massive AoE dps and some group utility and the flexibility to make fast easy XP with air pet vs easier mobs etc etc etc... we have enough stuff that we're really good at. I'd bet that other classes would rightly complain a bit if your heals made it possible for us to tank well for XP groups too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 AM</span>

[Trathe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XtremSummons wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>While we dont need it to be <EM>easier</EM>, we need to to have a useful purpose.</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... and you don't think the conjuror has a useful purpose now? We're one of the most rounded and complete classes in the game!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that what is really at the root of this for you, is that you feel the Earth pet is useless. You're determined to give it a role tanking well for groups because you feel it doesn't have a role or 'purpose' elsewhere.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">XtremSummons let me shed some light on Eyes_of_Truth (aka Mr. Toodles)…</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">This is the same person who said priests should get a pet to help them solo.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I had some aversion to priests having pets contrary to him thinking that certain mages classes shouldn’t be the only pet classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Here he says he wants better heals not to be better than a healer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>He likes to use real real long posts so as to appear intelligent.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Often it just appears, to me at least, that he is rambling.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>With that said.  The following is for Eyes_of_Truth and others who feel summoners should get a % based heal...</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Coming from playing a Conjuror and a Necromancer for my experience there is no _need_ for this.<SPAN>  </SPAN>To want and to actually need are two different things.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Summoners (be it Conjuror or Necromancer) bring a lot of flexibility to a party.<SPAN>  </SPAN>To translate for you Eyes I mean useful purpose.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Summoners’ can go a DPS route, or CC route (as in pet OT in right situations).</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Even a tank requires a psuedo healer to go against heroics blue and under.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Reason I say this is because the most unconventional group I was in was a Bruiser as MT, Pally as OT/psuedo healer (me), and Warlock in Runnyeye as mid thirties.<SPAN>  </SPAN>It was in no way shape or form was easy often we would get close to wiping.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I would dare say require a healer to go against whites and yellow heroics.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Eyes wants the conjuror to be able to tank as a MT/OT so as to give a purpose in a group.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Last time I checked mages are a DPS class.<SPAN>  </SPAN>So summon up that caster pet or that rogue pet and go a DPSn’ wow you have a role.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If need be and the group is unconventional whip out that tank pet to OT things.<SPAN>   </SPAN>You can currently do it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>It is just a risky thing to do, because it is a matter of burning the other mobs down fast enough before “Jaraner” buys the farm.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have seen and done unconventional groups w/ a conjuror tank pet as tank w/ a healer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What more is there to want?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Summoners currently in conventional groups DPS and in unconventional groups whip out the earth pet to tank.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Trathe on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 AM</span>