Tank pets now USELESS

[Vanyel]

I'm a lvl 39 conj with an adept iii tullerian tank pet. Since the patch today the pet is USELESS. It's a tank, and a white con even mob takes it down in no time. The point of a tank pet is to TANK. Not to die faster than my mage pets have in the past. This is utterly absurd.<div></div>

[canthii]

i usually reserve judgement on patch changes until i've mucked around for a week or two, but i have to agree that summoners have been slapped around a bit too hard here. i spent three weeks on the test server bringing a necro up to lvl 40 with the combat changes, and LOVED it.  the pets could tank green heroics with little difficulty, and even con mobs were enough of a challenge to make things interesting.  the trade off was the relatively slow, patient manner in which the summoner had to go about doing this.  i could tackle harder mobs than i could with my assassin, but it took me longer.  i couldn't see any imbalance in xp gain, and i was leveling both toons up nearly side by side. so today i happily log in a lvl 15 summoner on a live server, head out with my adept3 pet to my favorite test server xp spot (stone giants in the yapping maze), and watched as my pet was completely pummeled by a lvl 12 giant.  these same giants could barely touch my test server pet at this level, and it was an app2 pet.  give us mitigation back.  hit points does not a tank make. <div></div>

[Anz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vanyel wrote:<BR>I'm a lvl 39 conj with an adept iii tullerian tank pet. Since the patch today the pet is USELESS. It's a tank, and a white con even mob takes it down in no time. The point of a tank pet is to TANK. Not to die faster than my mage pets have in the past. This is utterly absurd.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am having no trouble with mine, I do have to heal a little more & not just sit back and let the pet do all the work anymore. Now I use quake etc to interupt the mob, it actually making me play the class. I am enjoying it.

[Janl]

Everyone asking for mitigation back, needs to realize that fights will be much more difficult also.  If we get mitigation back for our pets, that also means that NPCs will be mitigating our damage.We aren't getting mitigation back.  The only thing we really need is a boost for our heals (preferably changing them to heal a percentage of health so as not to unbalance them against our other pets which have fewer HP than our Tank pets).<div></div>

[j]

<DIV>we need more than that . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The tank pet just isn't on par with the monsters we fight. Its health is taken down so quickly that any adds will get us killed and i mean any adds even greens . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I guess now not only did they wipe all my adept 1s and 3s  but now they are requiring me to buy all adept 3s to solo . Which is all i really do and is no longer viable or fun  dispite the fact that they got me into the game by advertising huge changes  to soloing to make it fun. This game is once again heavly skewed to group play </DIV>

[Janl]

As far as adds, try to think outside the box.  You get a root line which at the highest levels (Quagmire) roots the target for nearly a full minute.I'm not saying it's not going to take some adjusting, I'm just saying it's doable if you try to fight what you are balanced to fight (ie. not trying to solo Heroics).<div></div>

[Anz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Janl wrote:<BR>As far as adds, try to think outside the box.  You get a root line which at the highest levels (Quagmire) roots the target for nearly a full minute.<BR><BR>I'm not saying it's not going to take some adjusting, I'm just saying it's doable if you try to fight what you are balanced to fight (ie. not trying to solo Heroics).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is so true, we are re learning our class. We have had weeks in testing so maybe thats our advantage. I find its all about control & disruption now, we are there to support our pets not let them do all the work for us.

[j]

The problem is the pet is geared towards spell lvl over  our lvl . Which means unless we have adept 3 or higher and our buffs are adept 3and higher we are screwed. Now last i saw rares weren't exactly jumping out at me and prices are still insane. So worse case prices are allways at 1pp  per spell that i need thus making this game unplayable.  Of course the best case senario  is that rares become so common that i can buy adept 3s for low  gold amounts  thus making me just broke. However i doubt it will be that way .  Esp not for a long time with so many people needing the rares

[Alluray]

I was exited when I first loggod on,  (briefly, until I tried to zone and was locked out) lots of neat changes to try. I was a little upset my pet Hero was gone and left me with a lesser pet (app1- that I could not find an upgrade for). But I though hey- no worrys, I'll be lvl 24 in no time (with the adv exp boost) and I'll get the soldier and have my alt craft a adept III for it! Well, my vital bonus was not any different then before the patch in TS, my pet was completely useless, I was leaving shards left and right in places I could always SOLO before and I was NOT having fun! I tried to zone out a second time and... locked<span>:smileysad: I pay to play and have fun- sorry if this sounds like a pity trip but- again this is not SOE pay me for my time,,, quite the opp.</span> <div></div>

[tharvey]

<DIV><FONT size=2>At 33, it's very possible to solo with only and Adept 1 Soldier and an Adept 1 Volatile Haven. Groups of solo mobs WILL drop the pet faster than normal, but that's bearable considering they give greater exp. Between Frozen By Time, Tremor, and Shattered Ground, you can actually neutralize a fair amount of damage your pet might take, and Aqueous Stalkers can really take a solo monster down pretty quickly. WIth an add, I'll typically put the pet on the new monster and the fish on the old one, then throw a stun (Tremor if it's safe to cast). I've survived up to three yellow down-arrows at a time, though I had to have a nice long rest after that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Actually, the Adept 3 Aery Outrider isn't too bad soloing either - it can hendle yellow down-arrows and yellow no arrows, though you have to help it (stuns and stiles), and it kills a LOT faster than the tank pet. It doesn't handle adds very well, however, because it just can't take the beating.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>From the last few days on Beta, I thought it was going to be pretty bad... so far I'm enjoying myself though.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[j]

<DIV>bah  kill whites for crappy exp even with the bonus   or pre patch kill oranges for lots of exp  with out the bonus .  I've been nerfed . Exp is slower m uch slower and i lost alot of time in upgrades that are now gone .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadly the only way to voice my fustrations is to quit and fill out an exit poll as they don't care about my feed back </DIV>

[Anz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jvd wrote:<BR> <DIV>bah  kill whites for crappy exp even with the bonus   or pre patch kill oranges for lots of exp  with out the bonus .  I've been nerfed . Exp is slower m uch slower and i lost alot of time in upgrades that are now gone .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadly the only way to voice my fustrations is to quit and fill out an exit poll as they don't care about my feed back </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>can I have your stuff?

[j]

<DIV>If u want , though since the patch came its most likely worth nothing  and all the rares i had are gone now as they are for spells that are diffrent or gone now </DIV>

[Anz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jvd wrote:<BR> <DIV>If u want , though since the patch came its most likely worth nothing  and all the rares i had are gone now as they are for spells that are diffrent or gone now </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>sweet, just pay the transfer fee over to najena and meet me in game.....

[tharvey]

<P><FONT size=2>What spells are gone now? Except for See Invis and Invis spells, and I can't imagine that was your first choice of stuff to use rares on. Oh sure, we lost the Adept 2 training abilities, but that's not something you spent a rare on either.  The only ability that's majorly, majorly changed is Volatile Haven... and it's probably more important now than it used to be.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>All the spells that were important before are still important now. Sometimes it's just in a different way.</FONT></P>

[Vanyel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Janl wrote:<BR>Everyone asking for mitigation back, needs to realize that fights will be much more difficult also.  If we get mitigation back for our pets, that also means that NPCs will be mitigating our damage.<BR><BR>We aren't getting mitigation back.  The only thing we really need is a boost for our heals (preferably changing them to heal a percentage of health so as not to unbalance them against our other pets which have fewer HP than our Tank pets).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>boosting the heals wont do jack when a tank pet gets 25% of it's HPs knocked of per hit. I'd rather get the mitagation back so I can kill the npc slow and not be killed myself. Or they can just throw the mitigation back on tanks. That's what makes tanks a tank.. the mitigation not the JUST the HPs. You cant just slap more hps on something and call it a tank. Soe is ruining the game by stripping of mitigation. I have no clue what they are thinking here.

[Vanyel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzac wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Janl wrote:<BR>As far as adds, try to think outside the box.  You get a root line which at the highest levels (Quagmire) roots the target for nearly a full minute.<BR><BR>I'm not saying it's not going to take some adjusting, I'm just saying it's doable if you try to fight what you are balanced to fight (ie. not trying to solo Heroics).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is so true, we are re learning our class. We have had weeks in testing so maybe thats our advantage. I find its all about control & disruption now, we are there to support our pets not let them do all the work for us. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe that's what most of us like. The pets doing the work. It's WHY I picked a Conjurer. It's QUITE arrogant of SOE to fly in and decide to change the rules. I can understand minor changes now and this, but this is HUGE, and there's no REAL reason for them to do it. The game was just fine before. The could have added DOF and just forgon these new changes. I've played my conj. Group play is fine. No complaints. But I'm about 75% soloer 25% grouper. These changes have really ruined the fun for me. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[j]

I agree , not to mention that solo exp is no laughable , after thie bonus exp week its not even goign to be worth it to solo , better off getting my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] slamed in a door

[Smeegill]

<P>Kicking Butt and taking names.</P> <P>You guys who are complaining need to relearn what you should do.  Basics still apply, but need to learn how to use the modified spells more effectively.</P> <P>The Group taunt ability of pet is AWESOME.  I can even cast a real damage spell first, and the pet will take the aggro off me anyways.  </P> <P>Get your Master 2 training upgrades if your going to solo alot, upgrade to adept 3 pet asap and your going to roll.</P> <P>BTW I am only using the master 1 Volatile Haven, works fine.</P> <P>Fizbiz 50 Conj Everfrost</P>

[j]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>You guys who are complaining need to relearn what you should do.  Basics still apply, but need to learn how to use the modified spells more effectively.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0099>Um buff up  and send pet in , then try to kill mob before it kills your pet or 18 other mobs come from the other side of the island to kill u ? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0099></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>The Group taunt ability of pet is AWESOME.  I can even cast a real damage spell first, and the pet will take the aggro off me anyways. </P> <HR> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>Thats great to bad my pet will be killed by the second or third mob on him before i can kill all 3</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV>Get your Master 2 training upgrades if your going to solo alot, upgrade to adept 3 pet asap and your going to roll. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do i get adept 3s when i don't have the pp ?  Please tell me ? Cause i can't solo to make money  so how will till work out ? Are you going to give me 3 pp to get the 3 required adept 3s i need to kick butt and take names ?</DIV>

[Xalmat]

I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever soloing blues and whites. If you are, perhaps you need to refine your strategies.And jvd, have you ever considered harvesting rares?<p>Message Edited by Xalmat on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:48 AM</span>

[Redorio]

<P>Pets aren't useless but what the problem is:</P> <P>1) You NEED the Master II training DEFENCIVE ability, the rest aren't worth crap if you plan on soloing. You MUST have that to make a real difference. This makes the other training choices pointless. Your pet will get destroyed verus group mobs, though it can now aggro them decently, unless you have the master2.</P> <P>2) If your pet is to tank for a duo or trio...it's going to take a stupid amount of healing.</P>

[BigRedWo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Redorious wrote:<div></div> <p>Pets aren't useless but what the problem is:</p> <p>1) You NEED the Master II training DEFENCIVE ability, the rest aren't worth crap if you plan on soloing. You MUST have that to make a real difference. This makes the other training choices pointless. Your pet will get destroyed verus group mobs, though it can now aggro them decently, unless you have the master2.</p> <p>2) If your pet is to tank for a duo or trio...it's going to take a stupid amount of healing.</p><hr></blockquote>I agree.  I chose the defensive stance to be master 2, seeing as how my offensive stance is adept3, (used to be a buff that healed, now it's a stance??)  My Tank pet is adept3.  Myself and a swashbuckler were able to take down the 48^^^ giants in  sifting sands last night.  It was a very tough fight, and I died right at the end due to my pet dying, but had I worked a little more efficiently, we could have taken him with no deaths. I was worried that pets wouldn't be able to hold aggro well, but if you upgrade the defensive stance, it adds a lot of aggro. Don't give up yet people, just learn what the new spells are supposed to be doing, and adjust your playstyle.  Good luck!</span><div></div>

[Loral]

<DIV>Ad3 Tellurian, Master2 Def stance, even trying very hard I cannot seem to steal aggro from my pet. I guess that means that you have to kill the mobs before they kill you. Screw healing, it is not effective enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are tackling groups, make an effective use of Quagmire.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, you have to adapt your strategies. The pet will not kill anything alone anymore.</DIV>

[Big]

<P>I have the Veteran (um, Avenger) Master I and the Master II defensive stance.  I can tank with it but my Adept III Stalker air pet does about as well and kills the mob faster.  I deduce that if my Avenger was Adept III instead of Master I, the air pet might even tank better.  I think they nerfed the heck out of the earth pet's tanking ability.  It isn't really a useful pet anymore.  I grouped and solo'ed last night, and found myself switching back and forth for comparison.  I didn't see much point to my earth pet.  Also, the fire pet (also Adept III) doesn't seem as valuable as the air pet for the reason of Blazing Presence (Master I).  I never got aggro using it on the air and earth pets, and it proc'ed so much more often on those, that they damage outweighed the damage from the fire pet alone (or with Blazing Presence).  Anyone else have similar experiences?  I tried all sorts of scnearios with offensive stance (Adept III) and defensive stance.</P> <P>So far, it appears the air pet is the best overall pet, and only in niche scenarios would you use the earth or fire pet - but this is after one day, lol.</P> <DIV>Cierkzo</DIV> <DIV>50 Conjuror/50 Alchemist</DIV> <DIV>Lavastorm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xalmat]

Earth pet has taunts (single target and AE), and can hold aggro a hell of a lot better than the Air pet can. It also has vastly more HP, IIRC. Still though, I expect to see people experimenting with the Air pet, it's a solid all-round pet now.

[Geothe]

<P>Well, i'm a lvl 26 conjurer right now.  And got a short amount of testing in last night before Najena blew up.</P> <P>I have adept 3 Soldier, and took the defensive stance as Master 2 at 14 and Fish as Master 2 at 24.</P> <P>I was able to solo single lvl 26 fine, single 27 fine, and a single 28 ok. (thats all i had time to find before server crashed horribly)</P> <P>I was also able to kill groups of 3 and 4 lvl 25 Centaur Steelhoofs ok.  The group of 4 was pushing it.  But then again, I didn't go all out on DPS because I wasnt sure how well pet could hold agro and didn't have a lot of time to test.  I basically pulled with pet, stuck Aquarous swarm on first mob.  Then switched Tank to a second cent, single dotted that one.  When it got to half way, moved pet to 3rd, dot that one, then go back and nuke to death the second one, at same time Fish have killed the first one.  Then move pet to 4th, dot it, and nuke down the 3rd.</P> <P>If pet taunting is really increased a fair amount. then tossing on Encounter DOT at the beginning would make the process a whole lot faster as well.</P>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Big Al wrote:<BR> <P>I have the Veteran (um, Avenger) Master I and the Master II defensive stance.  I can tank with it but my Adept III Stalker air pet does about as well and kills the mob faster.  I deduce that if my Avenger was Adept III instead of Master I, the air pet might even tank better.  I think they nerfed the heck out of the earth pet's tanking ability.  It isn't really a useful pet anymore.  I grouped and solo'ed last night, and found myself switching back and forth for comparison.  I didn't see much point to my earth pet.  Also, the fire pet (also Adept III) doesn't seem as valuable as the air pet for the reason of Blazing Presence (Master I).  I never got aggro using it on the air and earth pets, and it proc'ed so much more often on those, that they damage outweighed the damage from the fire pet alone (or with Blazing Presence).  Anyone else have similar experiences?  I tried all sorts of scnearios with offensive stance (Adept III) and defensive stance.</P> <P>So far, it appears the air pet is the best overall pet, and only in niche scenarios would you use the earth or fire pet - but this is after one day, lol.</P> <DIV>Cierkzo</DIV> <DIV>50 Conjuror/50 Alchemist</DIV> <DIV>Lavastorm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with this completely.  I am also level 50 (almost 51 :smileyhappy: - what happened to slowing down the exp gain?), and played around with all three pets last night.  Quite frankly, I don't see the use of the earth pet at all.  If I was taking on solo mobs, the scout pet tanked just fine and did so much more damage - especially with blazing presence - that the fight was over way faster than using the earth pet.  And against heroic mobs, the earth pet dies so fast that it isn't even worth considering.  It absolutely gets shredded by heroic mobs, and the pitiful little heals I have are useless to try and keep it alive.  The days of being able to step in in a group situation and replace a tank with your earth pet appear to be over. :smileysad:  That's a shame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also agree about the fire pet.  If the mob turns at all, the fire pet drops immediately, and given the damage the scout pet is doing with infernous seed on it and blazing presence, there doesn't seem to be any need.  For now I'm sticking with the scout, and if he gets aggro quickly changing the stance to defensive can usually keep him up long enough for the group to recover.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the plus side, it's fun the put the scout in offensive stance, buff him with blazing presence and infernous seed, and send him after solo mobs.  It's a close to one-shotting anything as we'll ever get, and it's a refreshing step in the right direction!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the minus side, the giant nerf to movement speed in invis mode makes me sad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall I'm happy with the expansion, but pretty disappointed in our group tanking abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[hellfire]

i use the air pet for slaughting solos and multimob solo encounters.and tank pet for  doing ^^^.works preety well

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hellfire wrote:<BR>i use the air pet for slaughting solos and multimob solo encounters.and tank pet for  doing ^^^.works preety well <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What level ^^^ are you talking about?  I'm not really interested in soloing them; I would just like my pet to be a viable tank in a group situation when a real tank is not available, and he gets crushed by any even or higher con ^^^ in just a few seconds.

[Loral]

<DIV>The nuance between Air and Earth is the Earth double-sized HP pool, and the group taunts it seems to have, versus the quick damage and high agility of Air.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thus both Air and Earth can tank in defensive stance, but if you are playing tank in a small group, earth will hold aggro in a much more steady way, and will be alot easier for priests to keep alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo, if you fight grouped stuff, earth will keep all the group on him, while single mobs will be killed faster with Air.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blazing presence triggers on hits. Since Fire pet has long casting nukes, he doesn't hit that often, making BP trigger less often. Air pet can unload all the procs of BP in 1-2 rounds. (if you listen carefully, you can hear a special sound when BP triggers)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all, it is a matter of situation. Again, the right pet, with the right stance for the right situation.</DIV>

[ka]

I do like the fact that there is a reason to pull out the air pet over the earth in some instances. I find when I am going against solo mobs that are single the air pet is better. It seems to kill them ALOT faster and not take much more damage than the earth. If I am going to do groups of solo mobs or try low heroics in a duo I need to use the earth. Kinda funny but I was messing around and soloing solo yellow ^ up arrow mobs is also doable using the fire pet. I decided to try if I could do the root nuke trick with me rooting and the pet nuking. It looked funny and I was getting some very amused tells by people watching me but it does work. kaid <div></div>

[XtremSummo]

<DIV>There's 6 different pets now really:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Earth + Defensive Stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Earth + Offensive Stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Air + Defensive Stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Air + Offensive Stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fire + Defensive Stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fire + Offensive Stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Earth + Def seems the best tank in terms of holding aggro and damage taken. My feeling so far is that the Earth + Def pet is best for tanking when you're taking groups of mobs on solo.  It's also a good choice if you're using a pet to tank for a duo/small group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Air + Def is probably better for soloing for XP on the whole. The faster kill rate helps with overall killspeed and it's tough enough with the defensive stance to hold up well to most single solo opponents. The taunt and damage both seem to enable to it to hold aggro pretty well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with all the pet+stance combos though - if you're willing to experiment a little you can find creative uses for most combos in different situations. For example: Earlier today I was doing some testing using Fire pet against white mobs. I noticed that I could expend minimal power by only healing the fire pet while the Fire pet ripped through the mobs at great speed. That's very cost effective solo XP (very little drink used) with virtually no downtime because I was using very little power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any given situation and depending upon which parameters you are wanting to reduce and which you want to optimise - there's uses for all the Pet + Stance combos I reckon. <BR><BR>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Big]

<P>To all those gave advise about stances/pet (Loralor and XtremeSummons in particular):</P> <P>Thanks!</P> <P>I need to experiment with a wider variety.  I'm enjoying the changes thus far, and I hope most conjurors are too!</P> <P>Cierkzo</P> <P> </P>

[ka]

Against solo whites or low yellows fire pet fully buffed in offensive mode is very quick and efficient. You should not even need to heal it just start the fight by rooting let pet procede to nuke the tail off it and if the mob breaks root stun it. You can pretty much just run through mobs doing that one at a time using almost no power. kaid <div></div>

[Mordith]

<span><blockquote><hr>jvd wrote:<div></div>The problem is the pet is geared towards spell lvl over  our lvl . Which means unless we have adept 3 or higher and our buffs are adept 3and higher we are screwed.<u><i><b> Now last i saw rares weren't exactly jumping out at me and prices are still insane. </b></i></u>So worse case prices are allways at 1pp  per spell that i need thus making this game unplayable.  Of course the best case senario  is that rares become so common that i can buy adept 3s for low  gold amounts  thus making me just broke. However i doubt it will be that way .  Esp not for a long time with so many people needing the rares<hr></blockquote>Actually, there have been posts from the devs that they are increasing the rate at which rares will be harvested.  This is intended to and should result in a significant decrease in the price of rares (or perhaps easier for us to go out and get them ourselves).</span><div></div>

[Koltr]

<DIV>Conjourers are essentially worthless now. I have read a few posts saying "Stop whining" or "Grow up! It a game." or even "Read the fine print!" but I have yet to read:</DIV> <DIV>You messed up the game, now quit dodging the facts and fix it!</DIV>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

That's stupid - we are FAR from worthless. <p>Message Edited by SkinnyFats on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 PM</span>

[Xalmat]

<blockquote><hr>Koltran wrote: <DIV>Conjourers are essentially worthless now.</DIV><hr></blockquote>In what way?

[Mordith]

I complained my fair share during beta about some of the conjuror changes, but I must say that I am fairly happy so far with the changes.  The main thing right now that I would like to see is an increase in the healing power of our pet heal spells.  Other than that, at level 49 (20% more to go to 50!) I was having no problem with even con multiple mob enounters last night. <div></div>

[tharvey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordith wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jvd wrote:<BR> The problem is the pet is geared towards spell lvl over  our lvl . Which means unless we have adept 3 or higher and our buffs are adept 3and higher we are screwed.<U><I><B> Now last i saw rares weren't exactly jumping out at me and prices are still insane. </B></I></U>So worse case prices are allways at 1pp  per spell that i need thus making this game unplayable.  Of course the best case senario  is that rares become so common that i can buy adept 3s for low  gold amounts  thus making me just broke. However i doubt it will be that way .  Esp not for a long time with so many people needing the rares<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, there have been posts from the devs that they are increasing the rate at which rares will be harvested.  This is intended to and should result in a significant decrease in the price of rares (or perhaps easier for us to go out and get them ourselves).<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2>My experience suggests the rare harvest rate has increased - got a Feysteel and Ruthenium last night from harvesting. However, it will be some time before prices drop significantly I think - first of all, fewer people are harvesting atm because of the experience boost, and checking out DoF zones, levelling their mains instead of playing around on alts, etc. Second, demand for some lower-tier rares has spiked because of the changes to some spells and the addition of others.  Give it a couple weeks and the price should start to creep downward.... and it's really not too bad as it is. Lowest T4 rare on my server was 49g last night. Add 13g for having the spell made, and that's only 62g for a T4 Adept 3. That's not too bad as far spells go, though it's too much to do more than a couple spells to Adept 3. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>But making the effort (in harvesting or hunting for cash or selling stuff or whatever) can lead to more Adept 3s.... and that's fairly appropriate. Adept 1s and App IVs can be bought without any strain on the budget, assuming people aren't completely neglecting earning money. Adept 3s require a significant amount of effort, but within the realm of reason. And Master 1s require a LOOOOT more effort, usually in acquiring the money to purchase them when they pop up on the broker. More effort in improving your spells = more effective spells.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>And it's still perfecbly possible to solo with Adept 1 earth pet, Adept 1 defensive stance, and Adept 1 heal. You just have to cast some more offensive spells to help out - no more sic pet, drop two DoTs and go AFK.</FONT><BR></P>

[j]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xalmat wrote:<BR>I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever soloing blues and whites. If you are, perhaps you need to refine your strategies.<BR><BR>And jvd, have you ever considered harvesting rares? <P>Message Edited by Xalmat on <SPAN class=date_text>09-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh wow look  at that idea .  I do harvest , yesterday I got 3 glimmering stones and a glimmering flower  but no rare for spells .  So i do try and get the rares , they don't exactly jump out at u  and sincei  have a job , my master degree classes and a gf i don't exactly have 8-10 hours a day to harvest for a rare . Now i notice you are cl 50 and for a few months you've most likely had no problem harvesting or killing for money and had little to spend it on but spell upgrades,  but not everyone is in the same boat

[j]

<DIV>I also want to add xalmart that soloing whites and blues  with much increased down time over soloing  solo  oranges two days ago is nerfing me . Even with the exp bonus i'm getting less exp per encounter and less  exp per unit of time as now down time has been increased over what it was </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've harvested for 5 hours since the patch when live and i have not gotten a spell rare yet . I believe in that regard they need to go for  a personal harvesting system. Where as what you get is based on time harvesting  not on the luck of the draw </DIV>

[EQoobTa]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tharvey wrote: <P><FONT size=2>What spells are gone now? </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Actually some spell of mine got bumped up to level 29 whereas it used to be a level 26? spell.  Problem is I had it at App IV, now it is red to me(can't use yet)  and App I.  Same name, Spiked Rain I think it is.  Not a big issue but I'd much rather they have given me an App IV version to replace the App IV version they have currently stripped me of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, a bit of info on soloing.  Our new roots now last the entire duration if they stick assuming no damage is done to the opponent.  This is a great opportunity to give your pet a rest and heal it some if you find you're losing the fight.  Once root breaks or right before it breaks(if you can) hit the mob with a Stun and send tank pet back in and it should be able to throw a taunt and hold aggro once again by the time the stun breaks.</DIV>

[Smeegill]

<DIV> <DIV><EM>"Conjourers are essentially worthless now. I have read a few posts saying "Stop whining" or "Grow up! It a game." or even "Read the fine print!" but I have yet to read:</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>You messed up the game, now quit dodging the facts and fix it! "</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Koltran,</DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>No name calling is needed to put you in your place mate.  You just dont understand how to play our class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The facts are they changed our spells.  Some work better than they did before some worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Learn the system, roll up a different toon or do something else with you life man.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really think it's easier to solo, because now I can pull multiple mobs and pet keeps aggro.  Quake is devastating as long as your in range of the mOBS, and dont use it around wandering mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fizbiz 50 Conj Everfrost</DIV></DIV>

[Smeegill]

<DIV> <DIV>Double post Sorry</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fizbiz 50 Conj Everfrost</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Smeegill on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:57 PM</span>

[Anz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Koltran wrote:<BR> <DIV>Conjourers are essentially worthless now. I have read a few posts saying "Stop whining" or "Grow up! It a game." or even "Read the fine print!" but I have yet to read:</DIV> <DIV>You messed up the game, now quit dodging the facts and fix it!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>grow up! match's comment needed for you.  :smileyvery-happy: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been flooded with invites since launch for our huge dps abilities. Loving the expansion, great work SOE.</DIV> <DIV>And soloing isnt a breeze now, but it is more fun & challenging having to be tactful for each fight.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Anzac on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 PM</span>

[minem]

<P>Superb updates for us conjurors imo, the tank pet is doing is job quite well , with are new short duration buffs and stances we can solo as well or even better then before.</P> <P>i wouldve like to have more single target dots but heck thats not much of a complaint.</P> <P>Overall dps if way up, and we got 2 upgraded pets.</P> <P>Great job devs.</P> <P>With adepts 3 as key spells , you should be able to kill heroics up to white cons 2 arrows.</P> <P>Minem , 50 Conjuror , Guk</P>

[Vonyor]

I haven't had the chance to solo becuase I logged in and got a group in Cazic Thule, though I am loving the changes. The fire pet is doing crazy damage now, though dies from some single AOE abilities sometimes so I do not support having the heal spell heal by % becuase the caster pet needs all the healing it can get. The air pet is doing nice damage as well and I haven't had the chance to test the tank becuase there is another conjuror in the group who is using his as the main tank and doing just great. It definantly holds aggro better, and between stuns and heals the pet doesn't seem to be doing that bad. The tank pet is definantly doing less damage but thanks to these new master spells our own damage is up. <div></div>

[Anz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vonyor wrote:<BR>I haven't had the chance to solo becuase I logged in and got a group in Cazic Thule, though I am loving the changes. The fire pet is doing crazy damage now, though dies from some single AOE abilities sometimes so I do not support having the heal spell heal by % becuase the caster pet needs all the healing it can get. The air pet is doing nice damage as well and I haven't had the chance to test the tank becuase there is another conjuror in the group who is using his as the main tank and doing just great. It definantly holds aggro better, and between stuns and heals the pet doesn't seem to be doing that bad. The tank pet is definantly doing less damage but thanks to these new master spells our own damage is up.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>one of your higher lvl spells will be minion intervention, it saves your pet from dieing and heals for a small amount. What I have been doing to survive ae is cast this before AE is about to hit (this is a raid situation when we know the AE intervals). It usually is ready to recast before next AE due to hit. If not I recast a new pet seconds before AE will go off. Or now we can sacrifice, so why not destroy pet for extra power & health to group & recast pet. This is a great change from send pet in and sit back, that was sooo boring.</DIV>

[EQoobTa]

Tank pet holds aggro fine and can take quite a beating, that's all I'm gonna say about that.  After what I was able to do tonight you'll never convince me otherwise :smileywink:.

[retro_guy]

<DIV>My feeling is that the classes and the monsters have be tuned for the higher levels, meaning lower level people are having difficulty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm level 50 and my pet is GOD LIKE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He needs a bit more healing, but can take down yellow ^^ heroic mobs, which is something I was lead to believe would be not possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He grabs agro from a whole group keeping me from getting hit, and no matter how hard I nuke I cannot pull the agro off him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It might help that I have all adept 3's and several Masters though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My biggest worry is that the nerf bat will come out soon and I'll be left crying over my keyboard.</DIV><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 PM</span>

[Janl]

Two arrow heroics were intended for groups of 2 people.  It's the 3 arrow heroics that'll kick you where it hurts.  And they didn't say it would be impossible, only that it would require alot of skill and good gear/spell upgrades.  Something the average player in handcrafted with Apprentice III spells probably can't do.<div></div>

[K'aldar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Janl wrote:Two arrow heroics were intended for groups of 2 people.  It's the 3 arrow heroics that'll kick you where it hurts.  And they didn't say it would be impossible, only that it would require alot of skill and good gear/spell upgrades.  Something the average player in handcrafted with Apprentice III spells probably can't do.<div></div><hr></blockquote>^^ heroics for 2ppl eh? well me and my wizard friend have been duoing the ^^^ sand giants, tarantulas, and anuk sentinels since launch np.  tank pet holds aggro better than most tanks i've seen ingame so far, and takes a beating about the same. my wizard friend goes almost all out, even with ice comet doing 5k dmg, and still doesn't pull aggro most of the time. the average player isn't supposed to take more than a green heroic of any type solo, which is the idea they were aiming for. atm i'm doing WAY more than that. summary: i did 990dps with fire pet in a group, almost 700dps with air pet in same group, and my tank pet (with master II volatile and adept III avenger)tanks exactly as well as the tank, which is my guild leader and raid maintank, decked out in all fabled.... i'd say we're pretty well off.</span><div></div>

[Violat0r]

<div></div>I think the title of this thread sums up the OP's lack of understanding of the class balance scenario and combat revamp. The tank pet has not been "nerfed" it has been balanced. It was utterly ridiculous before. We could kill rognok the angler (^^^ yellow raid mob in vanilla EQ2) with a single group using the purple monkey as MT before the revamp. Although it was fun being "uber" it just wasnt right. The combat revamp and expansion is very good (considered using the word "superb" but ive only been playing a couple of days and have yet to see much of the content ). According to the myself, the vast majority of experienced, objective and dare I say intelligent people, SOE have done a great job, conjurers are now what they were supposed to be before the revamp. We have different pets for different situations and even different stances for different situations, I believe someone said it was like having 6 pets. I agree. I would bet a stack of sofly glowing pearls that the same people who were whining about the fire and air pets being rubbish before, are the same people who are crying that the tank pet is now "useless". Learn to play the class or roll another and get out of this forum. Thanks. Good luck and have fun! Belmakor 50 Conj Enjoying the revamp <p>Message Edited by Violat0r on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:07 AM</span>

[laedyana]

<DIV>Suggestion:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since our earth pet is an NPC and no longer mitigates damage - it takes far more damage than it used to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's fine - I can live with NPCs not having mitigation - here's an alternative solution</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increase the avoidance of our tank pet so he gets hit less - bump up our heals back to where they were pre nerf (approx +25%)and I would be happy!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simple solution - shouldn't make the earth pet overpowered, but would help add some differentiation between the earth pet and scout pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KGr]

<P>All my pets are wimps now.  I have a Adept3 Telurian Avenger (says Rumbler on screen but Avenger on spell).  I must chain heal the critter to keep him alive in all but the easiest encounters.</P> <P>My pet does hold aggro much, much better now.</P>

[Loral]

Simple solution: rely less on heal, and more on Stun, Root, Stifle and fast-killing than you used to before.

[Grace_Moll]

Level 29 Conj so no experience yet with the Air pet, but what I've seen so far. normal encounters tank pet in Defensive mode is a beast.  I do have to heal him more but even con ^^ in groups of 4 or less are fairly simple.  He holds agro very well and I can hammer out AoEs as fast as they will recharge and I'm not stealing agro.  Stuff goes down MUCH more safely (for me) than it used to with the improved agro from tank pet. group encounters fire pet (though he <u><b>definately</b></u> needs a health boost) does some amazing damage as well. I don't like how half our spell lines were merged into one timer but I have no real complaints about the pets so far. Only time I can find myself agreeing with the OP however is in Harclave.  tank pet is useless in there. (least at my level) he dies too fast. use the fire pet. have it sit back until you agro the mob, then tell him to defend you.   AoE, AoE, AoE ..... rinse, repeat. <div></div>

[Senr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Koltran wrote:<div></div> <div>Conjourers are essentially worthless now. I have read a few posts saying "Stop whining" or "Grow up! It a game." or even "Read the fine print!" but I have yet to read:</div> <div>You messed up the game, now quit dodging the facts and fix it!</div><hr></blockquote>I personally think I'm way better off than I was before. Admittedly, I'm only a 34 conjuror now, but I solo better than I did previously. If you think you are worthless now, you might have been before. </span><div></div>

[Xalmat]

<blockquote><hr>Loralor wrote:Simple solution: rely less on heal, and more on Stun, Root, Stifle and fast-killing than you used to before. <hr></blockquote>Amen to that! It's going in my sig now.

[Mordith]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KGrob wrote:<p>All my pets are wimps now.  I have a Adept3 Telurian Avenger (says Rumbler on screen but Avenger on spell). <u><i><b> I must chain heal the critter to keep him alive in all but the easiest encounters</b></i></u>.</p> <p>My pet does hold aggro much, much better now.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Perhaps you need to further define "easiest encounters" because I just do not see how your statement is possible.  My gear is about as average as you can get (nothing above legendary) and I have the same pet as you.  With "easy" encounters (anything white and below with no arrows) I can send in my pet, toss 3 or 4 dots and go get a drink or hit the restroom. Edit: I just thought of something.  If you are level 43 or lower you wouldn't have gotten your training upgrade which would make a monster of a difference.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Mordith on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

[Steven9]

<DIV>i hate my tank pet now hes worst then the scout pet and does less dmg. I never really understood why conjs beong able to solo heroics was so wrong. All classes arent equal and shouldnt be. Conjs as well as casters already have the most disadvantages of any archy type so they should be given some special advantage that other archy types cant do. B4 revamps they had this and all casters were great soloers now they lost there only good advantage.  I loved conjs mainily because i could solo high lvl mobs for good xp when i couldnt find grp(which is most of the time and even after expansion finding a grp can take me awhile). I hate that they changed conjs to a more grp oriented  class. Seems to me that soe is tring to kill soloing. I think all pets should be equalily good at their class so if fire pet and scout pet are uber dps than earth pet should be a uber tank</DIV>

[K'aldar]

earth pet is an uber tank..... i take it you haven't grouped much since expansion launched, as guardians take the same amount or even more dmg than our pet now. also our pet holds aggro just as good. so really we have an uber guardian tanking mobs for us while we heal and do dmg, sounds good to me. <div></div>

[Amenda]

At level 34, I've been experimenting with the air and earth pets, near the front of Feerott and various places in Enchanted Lands.  I don't think I've tried any heroic mobs, but this was never my bread and butter anway. I have tried yellows, including grouped yellows of single, double and triple down arrows.  I've had no real difficulty with an earth pet in defensive stance.  He holds aggro just fine.  I do find that I use stun strategies more than I did under the old system, but otherwise it is just let the pet tank and single-mob-dot then burn, and multi-mob-dot when all mobs in a group have taken enough damage from the pet to do so safely.  I have not tried multi-mob encounters that were orange, but I didn't in the old days either. The air pet is adequate with either defensive or offensive stance against single mob encounters of yellow or less.  But better with offensive stance *in my opinion*.  Remember your stuns. I have started, but not completed, experimenting on using my pet without a defensive *or* offensive stance.  I theorize that a balanced pet is most useful in some situations, but must withhold judgement at this point. My earth pet is Adept III, defensive stance master II, others adept I, and equipment white.

[Sorris]

I can take single pull ^^^'s without using my pet for anything but draining it's life for power.  The key is your pacify/stifle spell line.  Provided you do no other damage to the mob, it will prevent the mob from hitting you with anything for 9 seconds and has a 40 second recast.  That, together with root the stun line (Harden, Frozen by time, and the other one) allow you to Kite easily.

[tuckerlord]

<P>I quit EQ2 for about 4 months, and came back last night.  Wow.......um.......its 8x harder to <BR>play my char now =(</P> <P>The only problem I have now with soloing is adds.  I can solo most things just fine, though the <BR>monster rebalancing did throw in a few surprises.  I can solo a Green ^^^ heoric and only have <BR>Adept1 earth pet, then again, sole yellow solo mobs can give me problems.  They need to work <BR>on labeling the monster a bit better =P.</P> <P>I came back yesterday after all the changes. I would say soloing for Conjorers has become <BR>much more difficult and hands on, and actually makes me paranoid and much more careful <BR>where and what I fight.  I havent tried groups yet, but it seems they did mod the class to be <BR>much more group targeted by the huge change in the way spells work.  I spent about 3 hours <BR>last night redoing all my spell bars and re-reading all the new spells.  I think in a group setting <BR>we might be ok, but I dont think that I will be able to grab one of the mobs and side-tank it like <BR>I was able to before.....which was nice, my earthpet tanked well.  Not a lot of dps, but at least <BR>gave me time to drop spells in between heals.</P> <P>Im feeling good and bad about all this.  While the dps increase is nice, the much higher <BR>risk in soloing is not.  I would say I have lost the ability to solo 75% of the mobs I originally <BR>use to take on.  Either im going to start grouping more, or im going to a different class =</P> <P>28 Conj</P> <P> </P>

[Janl]

You shouldn't have a real problem with adds, as you can just root park them while you and the finish the first target.<div></div>

[Joshuacrime]

The vast majority of people that are loving the changes are high levels with uber gear and the spells that assist the pets further. At lower levels, such as myself (21 conjurer), the amount at which we have been nerfed is amazing. I don't have a lot of Adept level spells but I have a few, but it doesn't make any difference. 2 Lvl 14 Heroics completely decimated me and my 21 Adept I tank pet so badly that I barely had time to figure out a bloody new strategy, much less refine it and develop it. Everyone here has a choice of really amazing pets with a lot of really good stances to give them, plus other buffs that people at my level are not getting, yet we still have to do almost everything you do. But I guarantee you that we can't do what all the 50's are doing. And give this "learn to play your class" crap a rest, please. Since the patch, EVERYONE has had to learn how to play their class all over again. Some of you have an advantage of great gear and great spells, whereas some do not, and are struggling very heavily to just stay alive against a heroic 7 levels lower than they are. Since they massively increased the amount of heroic groups outside, it's nearly impossible to avoid them anymore, and when you do, you just run into more before you can find a small bevy of solos for people like me to work on. People like myself have a lot of other things to do besides run our damage sequences through bloody parsers to figure out what works best, and if you actually <i>have</i> to do that, then something is very wrong with this game. I saw nothing wrong at all with the game as it was before. Tell you 50's what. Reduce everything back to where you had it before you hit...say 30, and come back and see how you like the class. I don't think you'll like it much. <div></div>

[Geothe]

<P>I disagree.</P> <P>I'm a lvl 27 almost 28 Conjurer and I'm loving the changes.   Its no longer boring send in pet and wait XP.   Its exciting.</P> <P>The tank does great at grabbing agro.  Sure, it gets hurt more. But that just means you have to kill faster!</P> <P>I find group mobs are the best XP now, and with the tanks AOE taunts, its great.</P> <P>Send in pet to attack one, and gain agro on all.  Aq Stalker a different mob in the group.  Shattered Ground the encounter.  Then run in and hit with a seism.  and boom.  most of the encounter is dead (doing this to lvl 26 groups when i'm 27). Occasionally you have to DD/DoT a couple of remained mobs in the group, but they are all under 10% health.</P> <P>Pet usually stays in green health in the process too.</P>

[tuckerlord]

<P>Yeah, I think the idea now is to use your stuns and DPS as much as possible.  Like the ^^^ green heorics <BR>I can take down, I could take them before I left, and my pet does get hurt a lot more now, but I do have to <BR>say, they fall much much faster now.  Where it would have taken me 2-3min to kill a mob, it takes 30-40 <BR>seconds.  I want to try this DPS in groups now.  My DPS was sweet in groups and I could out due some <BR>of the scouts, I want to see how it is now with the new rebalancing. I think this will be great for my more <BR>aggresive attiude I like to take in groups.</P> <P>I'm going to play a lot more tonight and see how it goes.  I need to farm up money for my predator, so it will <BR>give me some good opportunity to test the new spells a bit more.</P> <P> </P>

[Neglige]

<P>I'm only 25 conjuror and I'm also greatly enjoying the changes.  Pretty much all of my gear is player crafted, none of it made with rares.  I have only a couple of adept 1 spells, the rest being app IV other than the pet, which I upgraded to adept III.  I chose the master II version of the defensive stance for the pet and the master II aqueous stalkers.  I can safely solo non-heroic yellows including occasional adds with no real danger as long as I stay on my toes.  Which makes things over all more fun since I can't simply send in the tank pet and sit back and relax.  I just make sure to use the stifle and stun whenever they are available.  I put fireseed on the pet and use my cold attack whenever I can since the "exposed elements" proc seems to be on the mob most of the time.  I never waste time or power trying to heal the pet since that's useless.  You can save the pet huge amounts of damage just by killing the mobs as fast as possible and in the end he'll come out of the fight with much more health than if you had tried to chain heal him.  </P> <P>I paired up with my friend's 24 illusionist and we went out to test the limits.  We were able to take down level 24 (white to him, blue to me) 3 up arrow heroic griffons repeatedly in very close and exciting fights.  We were having an absolute blast.  It's like we had our own little army with the tank pet, illusionist's doppleganger, and the 3 aqueous fish surrounding the mob.  The tank pet holds aggro so well he would definitely die before the mob but if I timed it right just as the pet was going down I would recast the aqueous stalkers, paralyze and start casting a fresh tank pet.  We had a lot of fun.</P> <P>Overall I'm pretty happy with the changes.  I'm not a super skilled player nor very experienced with conjuror, yet I was doing allright before the change and now after the change I'm not only doing allright, but having a lot more fun doing it.</P> <P>The only thing about the changes that really bothers me is the fact that most quests are now heroic and since those mobs will often be named, we likely won't be able to do as much questing as we would like since we just duo all the time.  Named mobs are so much tougher and usually have helpers tied to them so we'd likely not be effective.   That's not a conjuror issue, but an issue for all solo/duo players.</P><p>Message Edited by Negligent on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:29 AM</span>

[fodder6]

I agree Im a lvl 24 Conjurer and I love the changes. I have an adept III Tellurian Soldier and I put him into the defensive stance. He holds aggro very well and does a fair bit of damage for me. Im about ready to upgrade my Igneous app to adept III as well and see what it can do grouped with offensive stance. I miss provocation which was moved up a level. But im guessing that with provocation and defensive stance it will really hold aggro. I can solo my Conjurer just fine<div></div>I also have a lvl 32 Guardian and although I take more damage then I used to. I have just changed how i fight and im doing great in groups with him as well. But right now Im enjoying my Conjurer most.

[Choad]

Dont forget about the stances and new damage spells. alot of Conjurors complain about their tank pet until they find out there is a defence stance. make it adept and all is well =D

[Raybour]

Well, I'm both loving and hating the changes right now.  Many of my hard-earned Adept III choices have been nullified, and I now have at least 2 AppII spells because there are no upgrades anywhere yet to the new line of spells.  How much will that cost me?  Yikes. However, I do love the way the pet holds aggro against a group with the defensive buff (Adept III Tellurian Vet and the Master II Volatile Refuge training choice).  Heck, this pet actually can taunt a mob off of me now.  Cool.  Of course, we don't have a ward anymore and can't stack pet heals, pet buffs, individual dots, group dots, etc. etc. anymore - and that kinda sucks.  Still, the new spells we have are pretty powerful - for example Frozen by Time or whatever it's called does well over 250 pts damage at Adept I in addition to stun now - nice. My real annoyance is this:  I don't appreciate having a game totally changed on me at L39.  What up with that?  It's like a tennis player waking up one day on a hockey squad - realizing that he can't skate, and that he's not even a good tennis player anymore.  I mean, I worked my tail off to level up a bit before the expansion and now I'm playing a different game. BTW, anyone else want Invis back? ... hehe.  Sure made soloing and shard collection a lot more feasible. J Wellington Wells, L39 Conjurer, Steamfont Server Clan Pristine Guild <div></div>

[EQoobTa]

<P>The only change I would like to see with the tank pets are to :</P> <P>1.  Shorten the recast of their taunts.</P> <P>2.  Decrease the Hate associated with their taunts.</P> <P>Basically, I would just like the Earth pets to taunt more often while still maintaining the <STRONG>same</STRONG> HPS(Hate per second :smileytongue: ).  This hasn't happened much but there have been a couple of times where I've sent my pet in to pull a group of mobs and his AE taunt will not go off(I'm guessing because the recast isn't refreshed yet).  By the time it does go off one or two of the mobs are already running to me and are outside of the taunt's range to be effected by it.  It's usually not a big deal having pet regain aggro but it does throw off my game just a bit while I'm waiting for him to gain control of the mobs.</P> <DIV>It's not a big concern but it would be a welcome thing to see changed.</DIV>

[tharvey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Joshuacrime wrote:<BR>The vast majority of people that are loving the changes are high levels with uber gear and the spells that assist the pets further. At lower levels, such as myself (21 conjurer), the amount at which we have been nerfed is amazing. I don't have a lot of Adept level spells but I have a few, but it doesn't make any difference. 2 Lvl 14 Heroics completely decimated me and my 21 Adept I tank pet so badly that I barely had time to figure out a bloody new strategy, much less refine it and develop it. Everyone here has a choice of really amazing pets with a lot of really good stances to give them, plus other buffs that people at my level are not getting, yet we still have to do almost everything you do. But I guarantee you that we can't do what all the 50's are doing.<BR><BR>And give this "learn to play your class" crap a rest, please. Since the patch, EVERYONE has had to learn how to play their class all over again. Some of you have an advantage of great gear and great spells, whereas some do not, and are struggling very heavily to just stay alive against a heroic 7 levels lower than they are. Since they massively increased the amount of heroic groups outside, it's nearly impossible to avoid them anymore, and when you do, you just run into more before you can find a small bevy of solos for people like me to work on. People like myself have a lot of other things to do besides run our damage sequences through bloody parsers to figure out what works best, and if you actually <I>have</I> to do that, then something is very wrong with this game. I saw nothing wrong at all with the game as it was before.<BR><BR>Tell you 50's what. Reduce everything back to where you had it before you hit...say 30, and come back and see how you like the class. I don't think you'll like it much.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have no problem finding plenty of solo things in Thundering Steppes, Enchanted Lands, and Zek. Yes, more areas are heroic, but it's not as bad as it was before they downtiered originally.</P> <P>Also, it does no good to confuse different parts of LU #13 and complain about them together as if they were one thing. It would be as if artisans were complaining about the combat revamp because they broke the broker listing system for some items. Though the altered broker and combat revamp were both parts of LU #13, they didn't really have anything to do with each other. Similarly, the combat revamp and uptiering of some zones don't really have anything to do with each other either. If the problem is finding solo mobs or avoiding heroics in Antonica, complain about the job they did re-tiering Antonica. That has NOTHING to do with how the changes to the combat system are. </P> <P>And yes, some of us on Test warned them repeatedly that they were making many solo quests undoable. The problem is that 99% of monsters in Antonica and Thundering Steppes are used for some quest or other. To make anything heroic they either had to A) Split spawns between heroic and solo or B) Make some things heroic in spite of the quests. They chose some of A and some of B. <BR></P>

[Xalmat]

As a level 50 Conjuror with mostly Adept 3 spells (and Master II Volatile Haven) I managed to solo a level 55 heroic encounter in Maj'Dul consisting of a no-arrow mob and a 1-up-arrow mob. The secret was to root the 1-up-arrow mob and burn the no-arrow mob fast, before unleashing a Blazing Presence'd pet on the 1-up-arrow followed by Heatwave, then Shattered Earth. No fancy kiting, no chain petting, just straight up pet tanking and burning the mob down as quickly as possible, and trying not to overaggro your pet's ability. Yes, this is with Tellurian Veteran Adept III. And yes it's a 5 level difference between me and the mobs I'm fighting.Also, a Conjuror duo can rip a 4-mob heroic encounter (or a 3 1-up-arrow heroic enconter) to shreds using nearly the same tactic. Again, using the Tellurian Veteran Adept III pets.To say they're useless only shows how little you understand the class you play.

[sonicshadow]

<P>^^^^^Well said Xalmat. </P> <P>To add on what you said I would liek to state that revamp was present so that they can fix our air/fire pets. To destroy the point of our earth pets is to destroy the point of revamp altogethor.</P>

[MalevolenceXXX]

<span><blockquote><hr>Joshuacrime wrote:The vast majority of people that are loving the changes are high levels with uber gear and the spells that assist the pets further. At lower levels, such as myself (21 conjurer), the amount at which we have been nerfed is amazing. I don't have a lot of Adept level spells but I have a few, but it doesn't make any difference. 2 Lvl 14 Heroics completely decimated me and my 21 Adept I tank pet so badly that I barely had time to figure out a bloody new strategy, much less refine it and develop it. Everyone here has a choice of really amazing pets with a lot of really good stances to give them, plus other buffs that people at my level are not getting, yet we still have to do almost everything you do. But I guarantee you that we can't do what all the 50's are doing. And give this "learn to play your class" crap a rest, please. Since the patch, EVERYONE has had to learn how to play their class all over again. Some of you have an advantage of great gear and great spells, whereas some do not, and are struggling very heavily to just stay alive against a heroic 7 levels lower than they are. Since they massively increased the amount of heroic groups outside, it's nearly impossible to avoid them anymore, and when you do, you just run into more before you can find a small bevy of solos for people like me to work on. People like myself have a lot of other things to do besides run our damage sequences through bloody parsers to figure out what works best, and if you actually <i>have</i> to do that, then something is very wrong with this game. I saw nothing wrong at all with the game as it was before. Tell you 50's what. Reduce everything back to where you had it before you hit...say 30, and come back and see how you like the class. I don't think you'll like it much. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think Joshuacrime did an excellent job of stating my experience (though perhaps in a more frustrated mode than I am right now =P). Almost every response that I have read on this thread from people who liked the changes were either A) level 50 or B) lower level with Adept 3 pet. What those of you in the groups of A+B don't realize is that newcomers who are playing a conjuror as their first character, or people like me who only get an hour or two to play a day, are very likely to be in this situation: a) Level 15-35 b) Do NOT have an adept 3 pet For those of us in this category, EQ2 got a LOT harder.  I mean a LOT.  I am not saying I don't like the changes.  Combat is fast & furious now, and a lot more fun.  But Conjurors without gobs of Adept spells will find themselves struggling to kill off white-con mobs.  If I had an Adept 3 pet, I bet I would be loving the changes too. As it turns out, I don't, because my main is low-30's and I don't have very much cash and Adept 3's in my level range go for almost a plat on my server, and I simply don't have that kind of virtual moola.  Do I upgrade my pet the first chance I get?  You bet.  But I just don't have that kind of cash, and with my limited playtime, tradeskilling takes away from the little time I have to go splat some monsters. So sure, call me a "casual" player. Fortunately, yesterday they gave pets more mitigation versus blue and green-con NPCs, and the game became reasonable again.  I'm not saying easy, I'm saying "no longer difficult".  Please keep this in mind all of you Conjurors who are bursting with Adepts and/or are high level.  You are judging the game from a completely different standpoint than us "Poor, Mid-Level Conjurors" (Po-MiLC? hehe) </span><div></div>

[K'aldar]

you're right malevolence, i am a high lvl conj, and i have a high lvl paladin too. that said, with those toons and grouping at high end theres something that i've realized... EVERY class is very very dependent on having adept I or higher of all spells now, not just conjurors. tanks without adept III taunts lose aggro before a mob is half dead, healers without adept III run out of power after 2 fights because they have to spam all their heals over and over. dps didn't get hit quite so bad for grouping, since mobs fall fast now, but for soloing any dps classes need their defensive spells updgraded as high as possible, which is defensive stance and tank pet and heals for us, roots stuns/stifles for other mage types. to sum it up: not just conj, but ALL classes have been hit by this, and contrary to what you may think, high lvls got hit too. only consulation for us is the fact that we can afford to upgrade more spells than you guys, but just do what i'm gonna have to do now, harvest harvest harvest, get those rares for adept III's the good old fashioned cheap way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[tuckerlord]

<DIV>Actually now that I learned how to play the new way, I dont have too much of a problem.  I think what it will come down to </DIV> <DIV>is the con of the mobs you are taking on, how long it takes to kill the mob, and what level spells you have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have app2 on my predator, and he is being thrashed.  I got some adept trainers, and he's not doing so bad now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for my Conj, she has all adept 1 or lower spells and she does just fine, though I am saving up for an adept3 pet.  </DIV> <DIV>She can take on 3 yellows at level 30 now.  *however* it depends on the mob.  I have tried the same con setup on a </DIV> <DIV>completely different mob and have had to run away.  I think the conning still needs to be worked over, especially since </DIV> <DIV>they brought back a lot of the heorics.  It seems about 25% of the solo mobs are conned poorly, but thats just a rough guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are complaining about money, here is what you should do if you solo.  Take on lots of Green/light blue/white mobs with </DIV> <DIV>your vitality high.  This way you get good exp cause you can kill them very quickly, but more importantly you can kill </DIV> <DIV>lots of mobs and get more chests/per hour than other harder mobs.  Save up the spells and trainers and when you fill </DIV> <DIV>up, go back to your room, drop the stuff in your house vault, go into market, and mark each 1-5gp each depending on </DIV> <DIV>the market value on them.  1-5gp for level 20-30 spells is doable for most and you will find they move pretty fast.  </DIV> <DIV>Sell about 20 of them, and you can get 1pp.  You can set your market to on, then leave your house, and your items will </DIV> <DIV>still sell for a time, even when you are not in the room, least thats how it is for me.  Takes a while, but doable on a 1-2 </DIV> <DIV>hour per day type of schedule, just make sure to stop by your room and start up your market before you go out hunting.  </DIV> <DIV>Thats what I am on, and I gain about a level per hour and get about 50gp per hour. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus you are not against such hard mobs, which lets you focus more on killing them faster than dying less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, just my 2cents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by tuckerlord on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:32 AM</span>

[Janl]

The "BASELINE" for what a player should have in order to be able to solo no arrow, even cons is Handcrafted gear (the common gear crafted by players) and Apprentice III spells.  If you are using vendor bought gear which has no stats and Apprentice I (or Apprentice II) spells, yes, you're going to have a problem.And don't feed me this, "new players don't have any money" BS.  Do some quests for coin/items.  Go out and harvest your own rares needed for your spells.  Just because you don't have a large bank roll doesn't mean you can't upgrade your spells/equipment.Hell, if nothing else, take up spell crafting and make your own spells.<div></div>

[Crystall]

/rant I don't mean anything bad by this, but I have (had) a level 37 Conjuror - I stopped playing for the very reasons I read thru this whole thread.  I quit playing back in December of 2004 because I could see the Conjuror class was left in the dust.  I would have created another character, but seeing that EQII is <i>still </i>buggy, I was and still hesitant to put my time and effort into it.  I guess I'm fed up with EQ in general - /rant <div></div>

[Daryna]

<font face="Verdana" size="3">As far as I have experienced, the combat changes have acually made my Conjuror a more fun class to play. They sacreficed some defencive utility for improved offence, and I must say that it has been most enjoyable playing from level 29 to 34. One thing I have noticed is that the Agitation pet buff has became a offencive stance for the pet, as well as the Volatile spell line has became a defencive stance for the pet. Applying an offencive stance for pet in solo situation might not be a good thing at all, as it sacrefice much of the pets defence for attack speed and damage. However, while using a defencive stance, pet has a slower attack speed, but absorbs damage, gain more hate/taunt and gain mitgation against magic. Applying a defencive stance instead of a offencive stance while soloing often change the outcome from total failure to victory. Hope this helps.</font> <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Darynael Terel'Kai Conjuror of the innothule Server</font> <div></div>

[Exanth]

Only problems i have with the earth pet changes is that it has no mitigation, and i can't keep up with healing anymore. Infact i rarely use it. Now that were able to solo anything we can root, i just use the fire pet and blazeing presence to kite stuff.

[Zachatan]

<DIV>The tank pet does the best he can... dont let him down... i use the heal and it does the job to hold off for a time or too... if he dies... i already have the mbos left rooted so i can make a new pet and send it into battle again... to bad they dont exploid on death </DIV>

[tooralo]

<DIV>I play a 35 conjuror, and have no adept iii's.  I use an adept i tellurian soldier with a master ii (trained) volatile refuge. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find that my solo-power has been vastly increased increased post-patch.  Now that my pet uses an aoe shout, aggro is much easier to handle.  I have gained 2 levels of xp now farming the raider/warpriest/forager/spotter spawns in zek, which range from 4 blue vv's, to 6 vvv evens. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After pulling and switching targets twice (to maximize the taunt spread, which I think might have a max targets number) I</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i. use adept i shattered earth</DIV> <DIV>ii. use apprentice iv shards of ice</DIV> <DIV>iii. use adept i tremor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>typically by this point half of the mobs are dead.  I then switch the pet to the most damaged one and zot things one by one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With vitality, this is worth 1.5-2% a shot, not bad considering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alternative targets to consider are abundant:</DIV> <DIV>herds of deer (EL, TS, NOT zek - they are heroic there)</DIV> <DIV>vvv fairy swarms in EL</DIV> <DIV>beetle swarms in TS</DIV> <DIV>duos of v orc grunts in zek</DIV> <DIV>vv orc catapult operators in zek</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and with a little work, I'm sure you can discover your own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FURTHERmore, I find that my single-target tanking ability on my pet isn't that bad either.  Against level 37 v guards at level 34, I could take two at a time no problem without even using root.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are you guys trying to solo anyway?  Even ^^ mobs?  Don't rate your effectiveness by the "biggest" thing you can kill.  Rate it by how fast you can gain xp and how much loot you bring in. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, my grouping power went through the roof post-patch.  Anyone used a dps parser on the air and fire pets lately?  Yikes, I don't know what ya'll are griping about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>Tooraloom</DIV>

[j]

<DIV>Before you come in and add your two sense perhaps you should read what we've wrote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My tank pet at 40 was doing a horible job . I know this is a point in the game where we get very few usefull spells to kill mobs faster at these lvls . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore  I went prepatch killing solo orange and reds on a constant clip. One after another  . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After patch i'm killing blue/yellow  with  time for letting pet heal and power regen . Even with the exp boost for the week  exp gain is lower . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However i notice in permafrost  my exp is up over what it was in el. So perhaps they just fubared the exp bonus . However if this is with the bonus  i shudder to thik of how slow exp will go when its gone . </DIV>

[Xalmat]

<blockquote><hr>jvd wrote:Furthermore I went prepatch killing solo orange and reds on a constant clip. One after another<hr></blockquote>Part of the reason for the combat changes was to put a stop to this, across the board.

[K'aldar]

<span><blockquote><hr>jvd wrote:<div></div> <div>Before you come in and add your two sense perhaps you should read what we've wrote</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>My tank pet at 40 was doing a horible job . I know this is a point in the game where we get very few usefull spells to kill mobs faster at these lvls . </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Furthermore  I went prepatch killing solo orange and reds on a constant clip. One after another  . </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>After patch i'm killing blue/yellow  with  time for letting pet heal and power regen . Even with the exp boost for the week  exp gain is lower . </div> <div> </div> <div>However i notice in permafrost  my exp is up over what it was in el. So perhaps they just fubared the exp bonus . However if this is with the bonus  i shudder to thik of how slow exp will go when its gone . </div><hr></blockquote>no class is supposed to be doing orange and red mobs on a constant basis anymore.. also not sure what you mean about tank pet doing horrible, my adept III monkey was doing awesome, and atm i just hit 52 and got tellurian myrmidon, which i only have app II of atm :/. well i can say that not only is it better than my adept III monkey, but its just an insane tank, i never have to heal it unless i'm trying to take ^^^ heroics, which i don't take anyway since it slows my xp grind down <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[j]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xalmat wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jvd wrote:<BR>Furthermore I went prepatch killing solo orange and reds on a constant clip. One after another <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Part of the reason for the combat changes was to put a stop to this, across the board.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Thats great. Yet now i'm getting no exp and no loot compared to what i was getting prepatch. Which means the solo encounters are now worthless. Soloing in this game is worthless .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your happy with that , that is great. To bad this game will continue to bleed out the solo player and fail when they are all gone . IF your happy with that , well that is fine but as you can see about 3.5 million more people enjoy a game that is fun for the solo and group player (wow ) over the game that is fun only for the group (eq2) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only that but its a slap in the face of everyone that bought the game because of the big solo patch and changes early this year that was billed as greater rewards and challenges  and now we are nerfed back to pre solo update  in terms of what the rewards are .  Today with out the bonus exp it takes forever to gain exp as a solo player </DIV>

[MSIMagus]

<span><blockquote><hr>jvd wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Xalmat wrote: <blockquote> <hr> jvd wrote:Furthermore I went prepatch killing solo orange and reds on a constant clip. One after another <hr> </blockquote>Part of the reason for the combat changes was to put a stop to this, across the board. <hr> </blockquote> <div>Thats great. Yet now i'm getting no exp and no loot compared to what i was getting prepatch. Which means the solo encounters are now worthless. Soloing in this game is worthless .</div> <div> </div> <div>If your happy with that , that is great. To bad this game will continue to bleed out the solo player and fail when they are all gone . IF your happy with that , well that is fine but as you can see about 3.5 million more people enjoy a game that is fun for the solo and group player (wow ) over the game that is fun only for the group (eq2) </div> <div> </div> <div>Not only that but its a slap in the face of everyone that bought the game because of the big solo patch and changes early this year that was billed as greater rewards and challenges  and now we are nerfed back to pre solo update  in terms of what the rewards are .  Today with out the bonus exp it takes forever to gain exp as a solo player </div> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I played Trial of Isle and loved the game because how easy it was to solo. I bought the game based just off that.....a week later this patch hits and its not the same game. I think many oeople yourself included are exagerating...it IS possible to solo. However its just not very fun anymore. Conjurer so far doesnt seem to be quite as bad as Paladin and I can still take White mobs and Yellows(though if luck rolls the long way and you get more then one resist your dead)but without the abilty to kill heroics and with the stupid system of having to hunt spells or buy them mixed with how broken the EQ2 economy is and you have a game where now there is little to no room for growth as a solo player.</span><div></div>

[j]

<DIV>You seem to still be low lvl , Please factor in the price of keeping your gear upgraded and your spells upgraded into the cost and you will see that its impossible to solo because the encounters do not yield a good enough reward. </DIV>

[Violat0r]

oh....my.....god..... The tank pet is NOT useless. Is has been balanced, soloing white ^^ pre patch was completely ridiculous, anyone who disagrees with this needs a double lobotomy and 12 rolls of rubber wallpaper. Any character at any level can have adept 3 spells where it countsif you get off your @ss and do quests for coin, do tradeskills, do harvesting, get in some groups and get some better loot. Soloing is GREAT fun. Grouping is GREAT fun. If you have a bad group, disband and get another. I had to harvest my own rare for my tier 2 adept 3 pet, i found a sage, i paid them a comparatively miniscule amount of money and they made it. Easy ,simple and cheap. You are NOT supposed to be able to buy a large number of adept 3 spells across the board just by soloing. JVD, so far I have read your posts with a mixture of amusement and annoyance. I am almost tempted to say that you have been sent by Blizzard to test us. How can you be so consistently wrong and badly informed? Why are you so bitter? If you stop whining does your brain freeze up? PLEASE just cancel your subscription and/or get off these boards. You bore me and the vast majority of mature, objective posters on these forums. Thanks.   <div></div>

[Vanyel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Violat0r wrote:<BR>oh....my.....god.....<BR><BR>The tank pet is NOT useless. Is has been balanced, soloing white ^^ pre patch was completely ridiculous, anyone who disagrees with this needs a double lobotomy and 12 rolls of rubber wallpaper.<BR><BR>Any character at any level can have adept 3 spells where it countsif you get off your @ss and do quests for coin, do tradeskills, do harvesting, get in some groups and get some better loot. Soloing is GREAT fun. Grouping is GREAT fun. If you have a bad group, disband and get another. I had to harvest my own rare for my tier 2 adept 3 pet, i found a sage, i paid them a comparatively miniscule amount of money and they made it. Easy ,simple and cheap. You are NOT supposed to be able to buy a large number of adept 3 spells across the board just by soloing. <BR><BR>JVD, so far I have read your posts with a mixture of amusement and annoyance. I am almost tempted to say that you have been sent by Blizzard to test us. How can you be so consistently wrong and badly informed? Why are you so bitter? If you stop whining does your brain freeze up? PLEASE just cancel your subscription and/or get off these boards. You bore me and the vast majority of mature, objective posters on these forums.<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>When a tank pet can no longer tank effectively and die in a few hits. It's useless. Hell the SCOUT pet tanks better than the tank pet now! Im not complaining about soloing a ^^, but the tank pet bites the dust VERY fast against a ^ even in the new con system. In the new con system my scout pet can go toe to toe with a ^^, and I can almost take a ^^^ with it. This is my point and other people's point. It's VERY... VERY unbalanced. In the new con system the tank pet should be able to tank things all the way up to a ^^ (basically anything non heroic).

[Tsuba]

<P>Earth pet is useless. I was fighting mobs 3 lvls below me (no arrows, no epics) and they completely own my adept 1.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for the nerf [Removed for Content]. I see myself loosing interest real fast.</P>

[Xalmat]

<blockquote><hr>Tsubati wrote: <P>Earth pet is useless. I was fighting mobs 3 lvls below me (no arrows, no epics) and they completely own my adept 1.</P><hr></blockquote>Are you using your defensive stance? Are you actively supporting your pet with stuns, stifles, and DoTs? Your pet will not solo mobs anymore, you <I>MUST</I> support it.

[Redorio]

<DIV>Sorry but some folk here must be totally USELESS players, no hopers who won't put in effort and thus don't DESERVE anything but ridicule and scorn :></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Pets aren't supposed to be able to solo high con/heroic mobs..the pet is your defence and large partof damage, but by ITSELF it's not meant ot kill tough mobs, k? If you think that, you're stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) If you don't get upgrades, you're lazy and don't deserve anything. How much you play, how skilled, determines how good the upgrades you get are. Tradeskillers can make lots of cash and buy upgrades, you CAN solo a hell of a lot of quests for good gear, the game is designed FOR that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) If you don't take time to learn what spells and tactics to use, you're an IDIOT. Ask folk, dead easy to solo, takes effort to take out three ^ low con heroics however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Folk ARE suppposed to be able to solo LOW con heroics, devs have even STATED that, provided you have good gear/skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5) Some mobs are under or over cons. They can be push overs or kick your butt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And like the stupid whiner wizards claiming their DPs sucks...do us all a favour and quit b*tchin'!</DIV> <DIV>:></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Redorious on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:55 AM</span>

[tharvey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xalmat wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tsubati wrote:<BR> <P>Earth pet is useless. I was fighting mobs 3 lvls below me (no arrows, no epics) and they completely own my adept 1.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you using your defensive stance? Are you actively supporting your pet with stuns, stifles, and DoTs? Your pet will not solo mobs anymore, you <I>MUST</I> support it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not to mention that it appears you won't get any experience if you don't at least cast SOMETHING.</P> <P>As for money intake being bad solo, I have no clue what you're talking about. I get the majority of my money-based stuff from A) Mass-killing easy solo mobs and selling the junk drops, B) Harvesting / tradeskilling, C) Solo quests - there's a bunch in EL and Zek that award items worth 90s and they aren't very strenuous. Splitpaw is also still an option - Flich still seems okay to me if you're afraid of Harclave. Maybe I have bad luck, but I always walk out of groups with significantly less loot than an equal time soloing.  Equipment-wise, I'm wearing 90% quest rewards (including a couple collection items) with the remaining holes being filled in by a couple of Splitpaw caster pieces... which drop just fine from solo mobs.</P> <P>Of course, if you don't like quests and prefer to kill a few very hard mobs to a large quantity of lower mobs,  you won't get much in the way of equipment or money... but that is your choice. Yes, you'll never get Masters soloing, but your chances are so slim in a group anyway that I wouldn't worry about it. </P>

[Tsuba]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tsubati wrote:<BR> <P>Earth pet is useless. I was fighting mobs 3 lvls below me (no arrows, no epics) and they completely own my adept 1.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you using your defensive stance? Are you actively supporting your pet with stuns, stifles, and DoTs? Your pet will not solo mobs anymore, you <I>MUST</I> support it.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Loralor wrote:<BR>Simple solution: rely less on heal, and more on Stun, Root, Stifle and fast-killing than you used to before.<BR>And for the love of god, if you are geared in handcrafted/App4, do not complain that you cannot solo Heroics anymore.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________</P> <P> </P> <P>No epics, no arrows, 3 lvls below me and they chew through my earth pet like it is nothing (which i said in my previous post if you wouldve actually read and comprhended it). My point is with an adept 1 defensive stance on an earth pet adept 1 it should be at least come close to killing this crap by itself (not die while the mob is still at half health). Why should I have to dump 1/2 a bar of mana on this [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] mob debuffing and stunning constantly? It seems totally ridiculous and it takes every bit of fun from the game for me.</P> <P>The air pet seems just fine as long as you have adept 1 provocation as it just chews through this lower lvl stuff. I am not asking for a tank that does a ton of damage just a tank that actually freaking tanks (a white con no arrow mob should be an close or even match with the pet). What is so hard to grasp about this? Why are people arguing against it? DO YOU SEE MY POINT YET?</P> <P> </P> <P>Earth pet = totally useless piece of crap</P>

[DragoonFie]

<DIV>At level 28, my Tellurian Soldier, Apprentice I, can easily handle white and yellow solo con mobs with no arrows, so long as I assist it with Petrify (App. IV), Shattered Ground (App. I), and a couple Spiked Rains (App. IV), which is around 1/3 of my mana. It also regens so quickly out of combat, I rarely need to take a break, and when I do it is very short. As long as you have your and your pet's buffs on, it should be fine. No problems here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand, yes, it is more difficult than it was before. I actually have to think now. I apologize for those that can not accomplish this task. When it looks like a fight is going bad, I actually need to think about the spells I have and which I should use next, whether I should spend the last bit of my power on this spell or on that spell. Learn the class, and you are fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as heroics are concerned: they were never meant for solo'ers to kill, hence why they ARE NOT SOLO MOBS. Consider it a gift that you could kill them for so long. But even green herioc ^ ^ ^ mobs are possible to solo, if you remain vigilent throughout the fight. And you don't need to die when doing it if you know when to run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, the pets are better now, as they actually get agro from a mob. That was a serious problem before the patch, as the pet would not hold agro at all if you assisted it, but now it actually will and there is no reason you can not assist your pet once in a while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that that is out of my system, I am going to go play the class so that I may actually learn to play it, not tell my pet to attack something and walk away from my computer for a few minutes.</DIV>

[Kerrik Stormbour]

<DIV>You + your pet should be a match for that mob.  Your pet alone, not so much.  Earth pet does tank, and tank well -- chances are you will NEVER gain aggro against your earth pet in defensive unless you chain obliterate the mob with everything you have.  Tanking sadly does not encompass dealing much damage (trust me I used to be an EQ1 Pally).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Asking your pet to take out all the mobs with no assistance from you is akin to asking a melee class to take out a mob only using autoattack, or a wizzy to not use his root spells -- it's leaving out a key element of the class strategy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I do agree that the earth pet is a little underpowered in certain ways, but all in all it does what it should, make things ignore you, so you can burn it down.</DIV>

[Tsuba]

<DIV>I am tired of arguing as you have all missed my point completely. Glad to see reading comprehension is alive and well in the world.</DIV>

[Xalmat]

<blockquote><hr>Tsubati wrote:<DIV>I am tired of arguing as you have all missed my point completely.</DIV><hr></blockquote>The problem is, you're wrong.

[tooralo]

<P>actually, we all play conjurors and are confused by the problem you're having.  some of us have tried to clarify the problem - what stance are you using, against what kind of mob, etc. whereas others of us have provided helpful advice - i.e. how to use the earth pet productively (in our humble experience).  The conclusion of almost everyone here is that the earth pet tanks like a charm, and that if you're not having the same experience, it's because you're maybe not being very smart about how you use your pet.</P> <P>the problem isn't pet level, adept i is fine.  the problem isn't the pet - that sucker can tank pretty well, and holds aggro really nicely.  the problem isn't the conj's spells (the stances, the stifles, the stuns, the knockdowns, the dd's, the dumbfires, all of which are nice).  the problem ostensibly isn't your gear since we're talking about your pet tanking...</P> <P>so the problem is... *drumroll*</P> <P>I'll let you figure it out from the helpful advice posted above.</P> <P>Cheers,</P> <P>Tooraloom</P>

[Tsuba]

<DIV> <P>actually, we all play conjurors and are confused by the problem you're having.  some of us have tried to clarify the problem - what stance are you using, against what kind of mob, etc. whereas others of us have provided helpful advice - i.e. how to use the earth pet productively (in our humble experience).  The conclusion of almost everyone here is that the earth pet tanks like a charm, and that if you're not having the same experience, it's because you're maybe not being very smart about how you use your pet.</P> <P>the problem isn't pet level, adept i is fine.  the problem isn't the pet - that sucker can tank pretty well, and holds aggro really nicely.  the problem isn't the conj's spells (the stances, the stifles, the stuns, the knockdowns, the dd's, the dumbfires, all of which are nice).  the problem ostensibly isn't your gear since we're talking about your pet tanking...</P> <P>so the problem is... *drumroll*</P> <P>I'll let you figure it out from the helpful advice posted above.</P> <P>Cheers,</P> <P>Tooraloom</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, I will bite. You see the problem isnt that I have a hard time playing or even killing an even con creature ( a conclusion you all jumped to immediately). This game is super simple by any means. MY POINT IS THAT *drumroll*</P> <P>"Earth pet is useless. I was fighting mobs 3 lvls below me (no arrows, no epics) and they completely own my adept 1."</P> <P> </P> <P>Is that clear? I didnt say much more. I havent died and it was purely experimental. They chew right through the [Removed for Content] though. I feel this is a turn in the wrong direction especially for those that like to solo. I dont expect a super uber pet just one that can last more than 15 secs with a blue con. It is suppose to be a tank after all. Why am i being punished for some other [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that likes to just send his pet in and not cast? I dont afk xp or play lazy. Hell, I dont get to play much at all anymore so I like to get involved as possible. These changes just ruined my favorite pet and I am suppose to just roll with it? Nod my head with the rest of the fanboys? I guess you win.</P></DIV>

[tharvey]

<DIV><FONT size=2>What do you mean by "owned"? Do you mean it dies? I have difficulty believing it dies to a 3 level below no-arrow mob unless you're not helping at all (which as of now, is totally pointless since you won't get experience unless you help). Do you mean it's down to yellow or lower HP? I can easily believe this, as it happens to me regularly. But the pet regens extremely fast, so it's not like it's a serious problem. We are expected to expend a fair amount of resources to defeat solo encounters now. Because so much of what a Conjuror can do is EXTREMELY power-efficient, I think it's fair to include pet HP (and I'd argue, recast timers) in 'expending our resources'. We don't have to wait to recover 70% of our power, but we do have to wait for the pet to heal, and maybe Shattered Earth / Aqueous Hunters to reset.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>In case other people haven't made this clear - we're not intended to send the pet in and it tank mobs slowly down and kill them with minimal effort on the part of the conjuror. The pet is not, cannot, and will not be as effective as a fighter - even a fighter a couple levels below. But the earth pet performs it's function (to hold aggro, and not die fast enough to allow the conjuror to kill it) just fine. You are expected to help the pet survive (with Petrify, Shattered Earth, Tremor, and pet heals). You are expected to do most of the damage for an earth pet (with Aqeuous, Roaring Flames, Flaming Agony, etc). Obviously, the higher tier your pet and the higher tier your defensive buff, the less you have to help, but you still have to help. Honestly, I fail to see how a 3-level below solo fight is lasting much more than 15 or 20 seconds... of which the mob should be stunned about 5 and stifled about 6. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>As for the air pet being an acceptable solo tank, in some cases I'd say yes. If you can guarantee you won't have many adds, and are willing to expend more power blowing down the enemies faster (or maybe you just have superior tiered spells), the air pet can work quite well as a solo pet - I have an Adept 3 Aery Outrider that I use as my main solo pet in EL - a zone with very controllable encounter dynamics. However, when I go to Zek, it's really dangerous to use the Air pet this way, as there are SO many patrolling aggro mobs that the chances of a fight starting with less recovery time in between is higher, and in particular the chances of the pet being low HP when a mob jumps you is signifcantly reduced with the earth pet. There's nothing really wrong with this - I think it's appropriate to have a CHOICE of pets to use solo... something I was afraid they were going to take away in late Beta but seems to have survived as long as you're willing to face the tradeoffs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Oh and the earth pet is still useful in small groups, particularly with a healer. </FONT></DIV>

[Violat0r]

Yes the tank pet mitigates less well now. Yes it was hideously over powered before. I read a post earlier where someone said "tanking a ^^^ orange heroic mob while sipping his morning coffee" , this sums it up. All those who want to sit back while a near invincible purple monkey kills all the mobs , go and buy a playstation or something, this game is not for you. Being a conj is soooo much fun, if you dont like it, go away, whilst stopping moaning like a spoiled child. <div></div>

[XtremSummo]

<P>I reckon the tank pet itself is probably OK. Basically, it has the features necessary to tank in that it has high HP and the ability to hold aggro. As with tanks in groups, he'll only survive or do well when supported by a healer and to varying degrees players with stifles, wards, reactive buffs etc etc. What I <STRONG>do</STRONG> think needs looking at is the power of our pet heal. I think the pet heals should heal a percentage of the total HP of the pet. That way the heal would scale up for the Earth pet but still not be too powerful on a fire pet.</P> <P>If you made the Earth Pet + Def combo so good that the pet took very little damage indeed, then it would probably be too powerful again to be frank. Improving the pet heals so that they scaled better across the pets would seem a better solution - possibly with the addition of the earth pet using its AoE taunt a little more often.</P> <P>X</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 AM</span>

[Tsuba]

<DIV> <P>I reckon the tank pet itself is probably OK. Basically, it has the features necessary to tank in that it has high HP and the ability to hold aggro. As with tanks in groups, he'll only survive or do well when supported by a healer and to varying degrees players with stifles, wards, reactive buffs etc etc. What I <STRONG>do</STRONG> think needs looking at is the power of our pet heal. I think the pet heals should heal a percentage of the total HP of the pet. That way the heal would scale up for the Earth pet but still not be too powerful on a fire pet.</P> <P>If you made the Earth Pet + Def combo so good that the pet took very little damage indeed, then it would probably be too powerful again to be frank. Improving the pet heals so that they scaled better across the pets would seem a better solution - possibly with the addition of the earth pet using its AoE taunt a little more often.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________</P> <P>I would settle for this.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________</P> <P>I read a post earlier where someone said "tanking a ^^^ orange heroic mob while sipping his morning coffee" , this sums it up. All those who want to sit back while a near invincible purple monkey kills all the mobs , go and buy a playstation or something, this game is not for you. <BR><BR>Being a conj is soooo much fun, if you dont like it, go away, whilst stopping moaning like a spoiled child</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________</P> <P>The thing is I can still solo an orange ^^^. I just  opt for kiting the stuff and siphoning mana off my earth pet since it has so many HP now. I would even go for reducing the HP and increasing defense or the defensive stances powers. I like your backwards logic of love it or leave it though. I am sure SOE would much rather people leave the game than voice an opinion on something. You are the one acting like a child when you make statements like that.</P></DIV>

[Xalmat]

Perhaps the question should be, were you fighting a named? Named mobs are now serious Undercons, you know.I find it extremely difficult to believe you can solo an orange ^^^, but you can't solo a blue no-arrow mob 3 levels below you. Either you're pulling our legs, or there's a lot you aren't telling us.

[Tsuba]

<P>Please read and try to understand my post before replying. I never once said I couldnt kill a mob 3 lvls below me (please show me where you got this). I said my earth pet is completely thrashed by these mobs. I am perfectly capable of killing blue cons with minimal ease.</P> <P>Try it yourself...</P> <P>Adept 1 earth pet and adept 1 volatile refuge. Find some mobs 3-4 levels below you that are not heroic and with no arrows. Send pet in and dont cast. Watch your pet get completely owned by some low lvl piece of yard trash. This is what I am complaining about. A supposed tank pet that last all of 15 secs against a mob 3 lvls below it. The air pet at least can almost kill this same mob in this amount of time. Why even bother using the earth pet at all anymore unless you are using the kite/siphon method against orange cons?</P> <P>Now try this....</P> <P>Find and orange con heroic ^^^. Slow the [Removed for Content] with rockslide or similar spell, dot with your best dot, root if need be, siphone mana from pet, throw a few more dots on, slow target, get your distance again and root, siphone mana, repeat until the mob is dead. Rather simple eh? You can even take out multiple ^^^ mobs with your aoe like this.</P> <P>Anyone care to read anything into this that I didnt say?</P>

[Xalmat]

And thus I found the problem:<blockquote><hr>Tsubati wrote:Adept 1 earth pet and adept 1 volatile refuge. Find some mobs 3-4 levels below you that are not heroic and with no arrows. Send pet in and <B>dont cast.</B> Watch your pet get completely owned by some low lvl piece of yard trash.<hr></blockquote>Well DUH it's going to get trashed. My Adept 3 Tellurian Veteran with Master 2 Volatile Haven gets trashed against the same type of mobs if I do that. <i>It's <B>supposed</B> to be horribly weak when you don't assist it. You, the Conjuror, are <b>SUPPOSED</b> to assist your pet now with your spell lineup.</I>I can't make it more clear than that.

[Tsuba]

Well DUH it's going to get trashed. My Adept 3 Tellurian Veteran with Master 2 Volatile Haven gets trashed against the same type of mobs if I do that. <I>It's <B>supposed</B> to be horribly weak when you don't assist it. You, the Conjuror, are <B>SUPPOSED</B> to assist your pet now with your spell lineup.</I><BR><BR>I can't make it more clear than that. <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why even use it then? That's the point. The earth pet is useless. Air pet is FAR superior in the same situation.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tsubati on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 AM</span>

[Xalmat]

Have you learned nothing? It holds superior aggro, more than enough to keep the mob off while you pummel it with your DoTs, swarm pets, and while you stun and stifle it. And as a matter of fact, it lasts <I>far</I> longer than 15 seconds if you actually put some effort into keeping your pet alive. With Petrify, Seism, and Shattered Ground alone, you practically paralyze the target mob for 16 seconds.Certainly your pet can last at least 31 seconds, can't it?And lets not forget Seism has a mere 20 second reuse timer, while Petrify has 30 seconds and Shattered Ground 40 seconds.The days of your pet soloing mobs without assistance are long over. Even for blues and greens. Get over it.

[Tsuba]

Ok, apparently you are not going to actually read what I type or try to understand my points. You jump to conclusion on every single turn. You seem to think I want some tank to just send in while I sit back. Please go back and actually read my posts again and reply when you have the slightest clue of what I said in them.

[Xalmat]

I read it the first time, and again i say the same thing. Your pet is no longer meant to solo mobs all by itself. If you would bother to support your pet (clearly you are not) then it wouldn't even be a problem. Or perhaps P.E.B.K.A.U. I dunno, but I'm done arguing with you on a subject you clearly don't seem to get.

[Tsuba]

<DIV>No you are the one that is clearly not getting what I am saying. I see what you are saying and I know I have to support my pet. Let me try to explain my point this way instead:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Name one instance that an earth pet should be used instead of the air. Tough fights where all you do is siphon mana off your pet is the only situation I can think of and in those fights I dont even send the pet in. I opt to kite the mob(s) instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still not get it?</DIV>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tsubati wrote:<BR> <P>Adept 1 earth pet and adept 1 volatile refuge. Find some mobs 3-4 levels below you that are not heroic and with no arrows. Send pet in and dont cast. Watch your pet get completely owned by some low lvl piece of yard trash. This is what I am complaining about. A supposed tank pet that last all of 15 secs against a mob 3 lvls below it. The air pet at least can almost kill this same mob in this amount of time. Why even bother using the earth pet at all anymore unless you are using the kite/siphon method against orange cons?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There must be an enormous difference between the adept III versions of the earth pet and the defensive stance and the adept I versions then, because I don't find this to be happening at all.</P> <P>Example - have you noticed that our crushing skill can now go all the way up to 5 times our level now?  I decided for kicks to raise my crushing up to 260/260 from the 127/260 where it currently stood last night.  After sending the earth pet to attack blue one arrow up mobs (the croc hunters on the beach in DoF), the pet and I can MELEE THE MOB TO DEATH, with the pet never going below 50% health, and typically finishing with enough health that I can chain kill these guys.  I never cast a spell - just use auto-attack.</P> <P>In fact, I was doing this with my faction bought app II version of the myrmidon before I ever scribed the adept III version, with the app II pet losing only slightly more health.</P> <P>Now I have read a fair bit about the possibility that mobs in DoF are underconned compared with old world mobs - maybe there's where the difference comes in.  But what you are describing I have not experienced at all.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by SkinnyFats on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[Tsuba]

There must be an enormous difference between the adept III versions of the earth pet and the defensive stance and the adept I versions then, because I don't find this to be happening at all. <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Indeed, there is a HUGE difference but I still get idiots here with adept 3's saying there isnt anything wrong with the pets and stances.</DIV>

[Geothe]

<P>"Name one instance that an earth pet should be used instead of the air."</P> <P>Easy.</P> <P>when you fight grouped encounters.  </P> <P>Send pet in.  He holds agro from All of them.</P> <P>Cast AOE nuke.</P> <P>Cast shattered Ground/</P> <P>Wait a couple seconds.</P> <P>Cast tremor.</P> <P>Mobs die.</P> <P> </P> <P>Wash, rinse, and repeat.</P> <P>Bring in the XP with little to no down time.</P> <P> </P> <P>Do that withyour airpet and you are dead with the first aoe.</P> <P>this way you make lots of xp. the only waitin you have to do is basically on spell timers before the next group.</P> <P>no down time.</P> <P>kill insanely faster than you "kiting"</P> <P>*shrugs*</P>

[Tsuba]

<P>"Name one instance that an earth pet should be used instead of the air."</P> <P>Easy.</P> <P>when you fight grouped encounters.  </P> <P>Send pet in.  He holds agro from All of them.</P> <P>Cast AOE nuke.</P> <P>Cast shattered Ground/</P> <P>Wait a couple seconds.</P> <P>Cast tremor.</P> <P>Mobs die.</P> <P> </P> <P>Wash, rinse, and repeat.</P> <P>Bring in the XP with little to no down time.</P> <P> </P> <P>Do that withyour airpet and you are dead with the first aoe.</P> <P>this way you make lots of xp. the only waitin you have to do is basically on spell timers before the next group.</P> <P>no down time.</P> <P>kill insanely faster than you "kiting"</P> <P>*shrugs*</P> <DIV>__________________________________________________ _________________________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give it a whirl with adept 1 earth pet and adept 1 volatile refuge against anything other than green mobs and let me know how it comes out. Notice I said adept 1 pet and defense NOT adept 3 or master 2. It doesnt take any longer to kite the mobs to death btw (maybe 5-7 secs longer if even that) and for you to say you didnt spend any mana is a complete lie unless it was some triple down greens you were fighting. I am guessing you burned through at least a quarter bar in that exchange.</DIV>

[XtremSummo]

<P>Tsubati,</P> <P>I was lucky enough to find a rough opal today and upgraded my Air Pet to adept3. Since I already had the adept 3 Earth pet this gave me the opportunity to at least directly compare Earth and Air pets. I've been running a whole bunch of initial tests to get some data on the relative performances of Earth Vs Air pets.</P> <P>While you're right or at least close to the truth in some ways, when you look at the bigger picture this very important and basic point from Geothe is also true. My analysis is based on the following definition of tank duties:</P> <UL> <LI>Hold aggro and/or regain aggro when it switches</LI> <LI>Stand up for long enough to allow DPS to kill the mob</LI> <LI>Contribute middle damage itself</LI></UL> <P>I did some initial testing by sending in the earth and air pets alone against groups of mobs. I'm a level 37 conjurer and I used the fairy type mobs in EL for first testing, because they're available in singletons and groups of up to 5 - from level 31 down down to level 34 down down. They respawn well and I could do all 4 pet + stance combos against each type of group:</P> <UL> <LI>Earth + Off</LI> <LI>Earth + Def</LI> <LI>Air + Off</LI> <LI>Air + Def</LI></UL> <P>All in all, you're right in some ways. The Air pet and Earth pets when sent in alone with the same buffs will kill mobs and groups of mobs, leaving them with similar percentages of HP left over. This is more true for the Pet + Def combo. With Pet + Off buffs, the air pet did considerably worse than the Earth pet in terms of percentage health left over.</P> <P>That means that the Earth pet is taking a lot more damage, mostly due to the fact that he takes a lot longer to kill the mobs.</P> <P>In terms of tanking though, the Earth pet stands up a great deal longer than the air pet can. While it's true that sent in alone, the Air pet performs similarly well to the Earth pet because it kills faster, this isn't a real test of tanking ability. It is to a great extent the ability of the Earth pet to take more damage and stand up longer that is key, because the DPS element of a group will be doing the majority of the killing.</P> <P>Looked at purely in terms of compared soloing performance, the Air pet just looks miles better. It kills more quickly and takes less damage. But from the point of view of tanking, the ability to stand up for longer is the more important element - and the Earth pet is way better than the Air pet in that regard.</P> <P>The other key element of tanking is that the tank should be able to hold aggro and regain aggro if it switches. I tested by sending the pet in against groups of varying sizes, waiting 5 seconds, then standing next to the pet I'd cast an AoE Nuke. If no aggro switched, I'd queue the AoE nuke again and so on. </P> <P>In testing, I found that even with the Offensive stance on the Earth pet (so less taunt etc) I could sometimes AoE nuke and heal the pet while he killed groups of up to 5 mobs without once taking aggro. Both AoE nuking and healing generate aggro and my proximity would have worsened things, so this is quite a performance. On some occasions I did pull aggro, but noticeably I could point the pet at the (usually single) mob that had switched to me and the pet got the aggro back almost immediately. I could take on groups of 5 Blue down down down mobs and barely take any damage myself while killing the group very quickly with my damage.</P> <P>The Earth pet's performance with the Def buff was even better if anything.</P> <P>With the Air pet, even when I used the Def buff, I'd have several mobs in the group switch aggro to me on the first casting of the nuke. I struggled to make the pet take aggro back from me, having to switch to each mob long enough for the pet to regain aggro and then switch to the next one.  I found myself at the end of the fight with 50% health or less. The fights took longer overall than with the Earth pet, because my own damage was reduced by having to keep my actions minimal to help the pet take aggro off me.</P> <P>Air pet with Offensive stance was an absolute nightmare. Essentially no ability to hold aggro and very little chance of him regaining aggro after a switch.</P> <P>There's another important element here. Most of the damage reduction tools that we conjurors have are AoE based. The stifle is in a DoT, there's the PBAoE stun, there's the slow in our AoE nuke all of which do AoE damage. The conjuror using an air pet will be less able to reduce damage with these tools because of the risk of pulling aggro from the group. The conjuror with the Earth pet as tank will be able to do so much more safely. </P> <P>There is, I think, no question that the Earth Pet is the better tank for groups of mobs.</P> <UL> <LI>It holds aggro and regains aggro better than the Air pet.</LI> <LI>It stands up for much longer than the Air pet which allows the conjuror to do his part.</LI> <LI>It contributes middle damage and not massively high damage.</LI></UL> <P>All in all, I've found that the Earth pet allows me to kill groups more efficiently and at less risk to myself. That makes it the better tank I think.</P> <P>X</P>

[XtremSummo]

<P>Adding:</P> <P>I just did a comparitive test of Air + Def and Earth + Def against a Blue up up up Heroic (Grove burrower).</P> <P>The Air pet was losing damage so quickly that I had to spend time healing him, where the Earth pet stood up much longer which allowed me to get more stufles stuns etc in. The Earth pet held aggro better too. In the end, the Air pet died with the mob at 74% HP whereas the Earth pet died with the mob at 53% HP.</P> <P>Of course the Earth pet lost way more HP than the Air pet... but more importantly he stood up longer so I could take more off the mob's HP and also protect the pet more. That's a pretty good demonstration of why the Earth pet can be a better tank.</P> <P>X</P> <P> </P>

[j]

<DIV>I have the air pet adept 3 and it holds argo just as well as the  earth pet on single mob targets  . I can unload every spell i hae for damage and the mob will still attack the air pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The earth pet is only good with heroics when there is no real tank and healer    or when your fighting multi mob groups . Other than that  an air pet with a healer duo team  is much better than the tank pet. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The real problem is the way our buffs work. If we change pets we have a few mins of casting buffs on the new pet again.  Soe needs to make the pet buffs like our other buffs. Once up they stay even if pet changes till the run out , canceled or you die</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise in most cases for fast exp your going to pick the best jack of all trades (air pet) and just keep using it </DIV>

[sati]

<P>I have noticed the tank pet (at least the lev 52) definatly does not hold aggro at all anymore, for example I send pet in on a group of 4 white mobs, 1 of the mob nearly always goes straight for me, no prob i will stun/root and move, next step is to stiffle with shattered earth, bad move all 4 of the mob are now on me! </P> <P>I have tried loads of different set ups but its always same result, all aggro on me. this is with an adept1 tellurian myrmidon buffed with master2 defensive stance, but all it takes is 1 or 2 spells from me and pet is a spectator.</P> <P>The air pet holds aggro better than the tank, if you think different just go try it.</P> <P>I dont expect tanking pets to be as good as player tanks far from it but as they are now the only use mine gets is if I am in a group and I need to pull with pet because tellurian has more HP to make it back with (which is almost never)</P> <DIV><FONT size=1>Ashwind 53 conjuror on splitpaw</FONT></DIV>

[tharvey]

<P><FONT size=2>Several of us have pointed out situations where the earth pet is useful:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>A) Tanking group solo encounters while you assist<BR>B) Tanking mobs the air pet can't handle while you assist<BR>C) Handling adds you can't really control because of the environment</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I'd also add D) Tank for a small group that has no tank or healer - if I'm with a wizard, I'd much rather sacrifice damage so the pet can keep aggro. The DPS increase from the wizard not having to measure aggro so closely will be more than the DPS decrease from having the earth pet up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>You're argument runs like this: The tank pet doesn't fulfill its function when I kite orange heroics. The tank pet doesn't fulfill its function when I send it unassisted against blue non-downarrow mobs. Therefore the tank pet is useless. Sure, if those are the only two kinds of activity you engage in, the earth pet may be useless to YOU. But that doesn't make him useless in all situations. Someone else has added that the air pet seems to do a better job in small groups with a healer and against most alone solo mobs with support. Again, that doesn't make the earth pet useless. It makes the earth pet useful in some situations, but inferior to other pets in other cases. When I'm soloing, I use the air pet when I'm in a safe area, handling things I can burn down quickly. I use the earth pet when I expect adds or will have more sustained fighting. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Also, I REALLY wouldn't expect kiting orange heroics to continue. It's such an obvious imbalance that they'll probably nerf it to heck... say by making oranges mitigate snare or just immune to it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Also, what's the big deal with getting the tank pet to Adept 3? Rares are more common, so it's easier to harvest, and the price is dropping, so they're easier to afford. You want a superior tank, then upgrade the pet. Personally, I'm aiming for Adept 3 for every pet spell (earth, air, fire, water swarm, fire dumbfire). Not quite there yet, but I'm getting close, and I'm terrible at earning money - I don't sell much on the broker, I don't camp high-value drops, I don't do much of anything to earn money except quest (which has actually been pretty lucrative in EL and Zek). Surely everyone ought to be able to afford ONE Adept 3?</FONT></P>

[Violat0r]

<div></div>Conjs can now kill even con (and higher ^^^) mobs using slightly different , albeit more intelligent tactics. How is this useless? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Violat0r on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 AM</span>

[Loral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tsubati wrote:<BR> <DIV>Name one instance that an earth pet should be used instead of the air. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Small group setting, no tanks available. Pet is tanking and holding aggro. I do it all the time, even when mentoring to help lower levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use Air pet and Off or Def stance to mow throu solo mobs that are green to high blue. (most of the early mobs in SinkingSands for example). Pet kills them fast, and thus doesn't have time to take huge damage hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Above that, I use Earth pet, as I just need something to keep the mobs off me while I kill. I don't need the pet to do damage, just hold aggro. And that, the Air pet cannot do it as well as Earth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I personnally am against kiting in all forms, I don't use it, and thus always go for straight pet tanking. If pet cannot tank it by the time I kill it, then it is out of my capacity to solo it at this time until I upgrade something.</DIV>

[Tsuba]

Perhaps I was just bugged or there were some changes made but I gave it another whirl last night after taking a week off. The earth pet seems to be tanking a ton better but it isnt holding aggro near as well as before. When it does get aggro in a group the PC tank has a super tough time pulling aggro back from it. Kind of a pain but at least the [Removed for Content] seems to be tanking better.

[salerene]

<P>My conjuror at 27 almost 28 with an adept 1 tank pet was doing fine against giants ^^^ mobs as a off tank. The guardian didnt even try to taunt the mob off my pet. I've noticed that the tank pet gets hit somewhat like a monk. which is in burst damage. Theres times that it seems that my pet takes no damage and other times when it takes very big hits. Without help my pet dies very fast from any ^ type mob. If my pet gets low on health I root the mob and recall my pet. slap a few heals on my pet and send it back in.</P> <P>I also have an adept 1 root. which helps alot.</P> <P>I solo most of the time and if I'm fighting multi mobs I just root one and the others come after me. As long as I don't cast any other spell my pet gains agro. I get hit once or twice, but depending on the mob it doesnt hurt to much. I then use (watch whats in the area) my 2 AE spells to stun and interupt any casters.</P> <P>just need to size up the mobs. If you use your pet and all your spells effectively then you should beable to take down any mob. Just make sure all the important spells are upgraded.</P>