Good news for our DD

[Ellestil]

<DIV>This was an interview about upcoming spell/combat changes. I only pasted part of it that lists the new DD scale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sassee: Part of the changes coming to spells and combat arts is to adjust how much damage the various classes do in relation to each other. Can you tell us how the different subclasses will rank in relative damage potential? <BR><BR>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest. <BR><BR>First group: <BR><BR>* Wizard/Warlock <BR>* Assassin/Ranger <BR><BR><BR>Second group: <BR><BR>* Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) <BR>* Brigand/Swashbuckler <BR><BR><BR>Third group: <BR><BR>* Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) <BR>* Troubador/Dirge <BR>* Bruiser/Monk <BR><BR><BR>Fourth group: <BR><BR>* Berserker/Shadowknight <BR>* Paladin/Guardian <BR><BR><BR>Fifth group: <BR><BR>* Fury/Warden <BR>* Defiler/Mystic <BR>* Inquisitor/Templar <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So we made the second group, which puts us about 5-6th place overall for DD. He also went on to say that a class that has all upgrades and good gear may tip into a higher groups DD. But if your upgrades are poor and your gear subpar, you may fall into a lower group as well. So there is some leeway here depending on how you build your toon and such. Overall tho im happy to see the class finally put up higher on the DD scale. Some may not like an Assassin/Ranger outdoing us, but since they are supposed to be the kings of melee DD damage, I find this acceptable. Besides, a maxed out Conjurer still has room to out damage a poorly equipped assassin according to this system. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ellestil 50 Conjurer Najena Shadow Syndicate</DIV>

[Jor]

<P>Good news ???</P> <P>We're magicians, like the sorceres. We don't have anything more to offer to a group than the sorcere has. We can't control mobs like chanters..</P> <P>So why should we be one whole class under sorcerers ???</P> <P> </P> <P>IHMO pet+spell dmg should be close to sorcerers... </P>

[Xalmat]

This ain't EQLive. We're nothing like our Magician counterparts in EQLive.

[Ishbu]

<DIV>We are sacrificing a good share of our abilities by using a "dps pet".  When doing so, and using a pet that is specifically intended to upgrade a dps and damage things, we should be in the top tier.  I cant think of a single reason that the low hp pet that just does damage should not bring us up to par with the top end dps classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still have my reserves about if SOE can actually get a fire pet that casts to work correctly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Nachturn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>The character-development aspect of an RPG is all about choices, and those choices have to have a downside as well as an upside.  (Otherwise they're not choices, they're no-brainers.)  Choosing Conjurer means you have a battery to siphon energy from while crafting, a guardian while harvesting, and an extra target to distract your foes in combat.  If our damage output were the same as a Sorcerer, then why would anyone choose Sorcerer?<p>Message Edited by Nachturnal on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nachturnal wrote:<BR> The character-development aspect of an RPG is all about choices, and those choices have to have a downside as well as an upside.  (Otherwise they're not choices, they're no-brainers.)  Choosing Conjurer means you have a battery to siphon energy from while crafting, a guardian while harvesting, and an extra target to distract your foes in combat.  If our damage output were the same as a Sorcerer, then why would anyone choose Sorcerer? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because of their unbreakable roots, their stuns, evac, mana feed, DD instead of DoT, etc.<BR>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nachturnal wrote:<BR> The character-development aspect of an RPG is all about choices, and those choices have to have a downside as well as an upside.  (Otherwise they're not choices, they're no-brainers.)  Choosing Conjurer means you have a battery to siphon energy from while crafting, a guardian while harvesting, and an extra target to distract your foes in combat.  If our damage output were the same as a Sorcerer, then why would anyone choose Sorcerer? <P>Message Edited by Nachturnal on <SPAN class=date_text>06-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You dont have those things if your using the dps pet though.  Thats the whole point, all that is thrown out for more dps, and we arent getting it.

[Ellestil]

<P>Lets get something straight here,</P> <P>We are not, and will never be the same on average as a Wiz/War that is built to do high end burst DD. Get that old notion of class equality=same damage output out of your heads. Its not gonna happen, ever. If that were true everyone would pick Gaurdians if a Grd could do the exact same damage as a Zerk but have better defense. You can state what you think the classes should be all day long, but in the end, its what the devs say the class is for this game that will matter. </P> <P>There is leeway also, so if you want to up all your damage potential you may very well be higher in the DD department ( once combat changes come into effect ), however, on average the Wiz/Warlock will be highest in short burst DD. If they made us exactly equal to them, we would have a clear advantage in both short and long fights, and then everyone would pick conjurers to play. There is some give and take in each class, you cant continue to make assumptions that the current system of spells and combat will hold true after the big update and that the plans of the dev's is to make everyone exactly the same just with a different animation.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ellestil 50 Conjurer Najena Shadow Syndicate</P>

[trigger3]

<P>Well put Elle. </P> <P>/clap</P> <P> </P> <P>In my opinion, If you want to do high burst DD, huge dps, etc. Then reroll a warlock/wizzy. Or be like me, have a conjuror and a warlock <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Laereneth]

While we're on the topic of dps.  Does the Conj dots add up after a while?  I noticed that the vast majority of Conj offensive spells were dots...and group dots at that.

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div>We are sacrificing a good share of our abilities by using a "dps pet".  When doing so, and using a pet that is specifically intended to upgrade a dps and damage things, we should be in the top tier.  I cant think of a single reason that the low hp pet that just does damage should not bring us up to par with the top end dps classes.</div> <div> </div> <div>I still have my reserves about if SOE can actually get a fire pet that casts to work correctly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Which abilities are you sacrificing?  Is it your group buffs, your wards, your pet buffs?  Maybe you give up your stuns?  Oh!  You give up your pet heals?  Nope, not those either.  By not using the tank pet, the only thing you are giving up is a tanking ability.  Everything else is still there.  That isn't worth more than a single tier jump in DPS.</span><div></div>

[Magimu]

<P>This ain't EQLive. We're nothing like our Magician counterparts in EQLive.  -From Xalmat. </P> <P>Yes and no Xalmat.  So far I have yet to see anything work exactly like EQ but it is still close in spirit at least and in alot of case my abilities are functioning as we wanted them to work as Magi's in EQ1.  Our pets while facing issues in EQ2 are a dream vs our old pets that hit for a whooping 88 to 114 a hit.  In fact they hit harder than we can with spells as you have shown me.</P> <P>And then I see we are getting kicked near the top of the dps food chain for sure coming up.  While I have no crystal ball looks like a good time to be leveling up and raiding as a Necro and Conjuor to me.  I could be wrong but I can't recall SoE ever taking the time to place us old Mages and Necro's on any type of dps chart.  These set of developer seem to be on the ball and unlike EQ1 seem to have asense of direction.</P> <P>SO for once I look forward to some changes.</P> <P>Mulk</P> <P> </P>

[Ellestil]

<P>"While we're on the topic of dps.  Does the Conj dots add up after a while?  I noticed that the vast majority of Conj offensive spells were dots...and group dots at that. "</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes, the longer the fight, the more our DPS increases. Almost all of our damage spells come in the form of dots. This only makes sense though, seeing as how we rely on our tank pet to hold aggro, and it would be very hard for him to do so if we were to burst DD a mob for 1500 damage. The dots though tick away and are stackable, but each tick of a spell is matched by the pet doing his own damage, so aggro is much more controllable this way. We are adding hate with our dots, but the pet is adding hate also with his attacks, and neither damage is so high as to overrule the other completely. If the pet did uber damage, we could never pull aggro off of him. This would take most risk out of the game for us and allow us to throw out huge damage with our best spells without regard. Other classes then would see this as overpowered.</P> <P>Some of our dots are designed to burn down groups and debuff them at the same time. While others are single target only. You can stack these as well however. In fact, its almost impossible to have every dot we own on one target at the same time. By the time you could cast the 4th dot, the first is wearing off. Its best to use the most efficient dots that give you the most damage vs mana used. Pyrotechnic is great for its short cast and 10 ticks of damage, and when used with other fire based dots such as Fiery doom, it will increase their effects.</P> <P>Just dont expect to see a mobs health go from full to half in one cast. We dont work that way. We can watch the mobs health go down at a steady and surprisingly quick rate tho, if you use dots effectively with your pet. Combine that with almost unlimited mana via pet tapping and we go on and on and on in fights with little to no downtime.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ellestil 50 Conjurer Najena Shadow Syndicate</P>

[K'aldar]

way i see it thats exactly where conjurors should be damage-wise. and as for our boost, all they really would have had to do was drastically shorten our spell cast times... so we're a dot mage class ok, but it shouldn't take us 4 seconds just to try to land each on the mobs. for us to compete with dps we should be able to put our dots on mobs quicker than other classes, not slower.  anyway i'll be happy just where they're putting us at, provided they can make it work. <div></div>

[Raybour]

Agreed about DoT spell-casting times, K'aldar.  I'm only L21 Conjurer so far, so I've not had a ton of experience with it yet, but it really is annoying to try to get off Seism for example on a group of mobs and by the time it actually goes off, the targetted first mob is dead and you have to start over again with the next one in the group, and so on... But right now I'm very happy with my Conjurer.  I have no idea what it will be like at higher levels, but having the pet has saved me and my party many times.  If I had higher DPS and no pet, the DPS would be nice on one hand, but on the other would attract more attention from the mobs and then I'd have no pet to save my little Gnomie behind...hehe. <div></div>

[K'aldar]

yeah i still get that with teh aoe's taking as long to cast as the mob does to die. <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>A fine way to justicfy a lower DPS tier would be making the Summoner class the best at debuffing target's resists, like seriously good. That would actualy put us more on par with a equilly equip soerceror as we would be landing for much claser to full damage than they would, but if grouped together, the soerceror's nukes would be hitting for much closer to their max thanks to the summoners debuff resist dot. Not to mention it would increase the damage potiental of DPs casting pets if summoners lowered spell defenses of mob. If my spell resist debufing is actually potient enough to warrent chooseing a Soerceror witha  sumoner vd just taking two soerceror's, i would be very very satisfied.</P> <P>Like if a sorceror's nuke maxed at 800 but he only landed for 500, x2 for the second soerceror would be 1000 total</P> <P>but if a summoner was with him, the soerceror would hit for say 700+, and conjuror's dot would do 100 a tic for 30 seconds, and dps pet nuking for 300+, making it 1100 for just one cast each, and even more when dot takes it's time.</P> <P>But if we <STRONG>dont</STRONG> get that kind of debuffing power, then no, i dont think we should indefinatly be under an equilly equip sorceror. If a mob lives longer than 30 seconds, then the summoner should start to pull ahead in total damage (not counting raids, few mobs last that long imo with a soerceror nuking)</P> <DIV>Personaly i would love to be the "spell shatteror" and let soerceror's and my dps pet deal even higher, un mitigated damage, as it would provide a wanted role. Enchanters also need to have awsome damage imo, greater than us using earth pet but lower than us using dps pet. Giving them awsome power drains attatched to their nukes would give them a wanted commodaty too. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imo all 3 mages should get pets and power granting skills and messes, but each one being obviously superior in a skill, like making enchanters mess low power and un-interuptable, giving them a aoe mess with no stun, and give other two classes each a high power cost mess with longer reuse time, and a AOE mess that stuns them for the durration. Give enchanter and soerceror weak summoned mini pets, but give summoner their controlable pets, and stronger mini-pets than the other two classes. Beef up summoner's summoned shard and remove the health cost, but make breeze still the best, and give soerceror's the best "burst" of power granting skills that stuns them. Give soerceror the only AOE direct nuke with a shorter reuse timer than enchanter and summoner's AOE damage spell and make theirs a dot with a longer reuse timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This allows for any mage to step up to the occassion when needed, but some be obviously more prepaired for said role. Like if swarmed by a ton of mobs, the soerceror could aoe mess them all and be stuned, where as the enchanter could mess them all and keep damaging the main tanks mob. This doesnt give up uniqueness, just ads versatility. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, would be awsome if enchnaters (and bards) could increase damage done by CA/Spells by a %, like say 25% increase + haste, so they know for a fact that they are adding a signifigant increase to group, making up for their tier 3 personal dps position.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just some thoughs...it's 3am so please forgive my misspellings and plot holes lol</DIV>

[K'aldar]

yeah Eyes i had a similiar (maybe the same, dunno i just glanced throught what you wrote :p, sorry if it is) idea.  since summoners are supposed to be a dot based class then our dots should add up (given that they go for their full duration) for more than a warlock's burst damage. so say that one nuke of a sorc hit for 1000, well then summoners should get one dot that goes for say 750 dmg + 750 dmg from pet over 10 seconds instead of the sorc's one time cast. (nobody get mad at the numbers, just makin them up from scratch).  that way SOE can hold true to what they said before about a certain class for each situation. i.e. summoners for long battles, sorcerers for quicker battles. but given that we have a pet (tho its not much better than the roots of a sorc or mez of a chanter) many ppl disagree with that. <div></div>

[mymTwRa]

really good news <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Crono1321]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div>We are sacrificing a good share of our abilities by using a "dps pet".  When doing so, and using a pet that is specifically intended to upgrade a dps and damage things, we should be in the top tier.  I cant think of a single reason that the low hp pet that just does damage should not bring us up to par with the top end dps classes.</div> <div> </div> <div>I still have my reserves about if SOE can actually get a fire pet that casts to work correctly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Which abilities are you sacrificing?  Is it your group buffs, your wards, your pet buffs?  Maybe you give up your stuns?  Oh!  You give up your pet heals?  Nope, not those either.  By not using the tank pet, the only thing you are giving up is a tanking ability.  Everything else is still there.  That isn't worth more than a single tier jump in DPS.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> OMG you mean another conjuror actually gets this?  Ishboozor, for the last time-- you can not have it all.  You can not be a tank/healer for some battles and #1 dps for group battles...that is called cheating and being overpowered.</span><div></div>

[K'aldar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div>We are sacrificing a good share of our abilities by using a "dps pet".  When doing so, and using a pet that is specifically intended to upgrade a dps and damage things, we should be in the top tier.  I cant think of a single reason that the low hp pet that just does damage should not bring us up to par with the top end dps classes.</div> <div> </div> <div>I still have my reserves about if SOE can actually get a fire pet that casts to work correctly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Which abilities are you sacrificing?  Is it your group buffs, your wards, your pet buffs?  Maybe you give up your stuns?  Oh!  You give up your pet heals?  Nope, not those either.  By not using the tank pet, the only thing you are giving up is a tanking ability.  Everything else is still there.  That isn't worth more than a single tier jump in DPS.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> OMG you mean another conjuror actually gets this?  Ishboozor, for the last time-- you can not have it all.  You can not be a tank/healer for some battles and #1 dps for group battles...that is called cheating and being overpowered.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>crono i have to admit you're right there. even in WoW the hybrid classes couldnt' be the best of either of their specialties. i think where soe is trying to put us for dps is going to be perfect.</span><div></div>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>OMG you mean another conjuror actually gets this?  Ishboozor, for the last time-- you can not have it all.  You can not be a tank/healer for some battles and #1 dps for group battles...that is called cheating and being overpowered.<BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I dont want it all.  I have clearly stated, addressed to you in fact that I am fine with warlocks doing more dps.  I do not want it all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all know the tank pet doesnt really tank mobs that groups are fighting all that well.  It is a long cry from #1 tank/healer.  And if we arent supposed to have an off tank for some battles and a dps machine for other battles, why do we have 3 different pets to pick and choose from?  It is so we can choose to either have an off tank or do lots of dps.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think we should certantly be in the top tier of dps....not doing the exact same damage as a warlock, but up there in terms of dps.  The tiers of hte pyramid should be significantly different, otherwise there is no point in tiering them to begin with.  If conjurors are intended to be this utility machine, why do we even have the dps pets to begin with?  They are a waste of 2 spells we could have if they arent going to produce dps for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it ironic that a warlock is here talking about being overpowered.</DIV>

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote: <div>I think we should certantly be in the top tier of dps....not doing the exact same damage as a warlock, but up there in terms of dps.  The tiers of hte pyramid should be significantly different, otherwise there is no point in tiering them to begin with.  If conjurors are intended to be this utility machine, why do we even have the dps pets to begin with?  They are a waste of 2 spells we could have if they arent going to produce dps for us.</div> <div> </div> <div>I find it ironic that a warlock is here talking about being overpowered.</div><hr></blockquote>Swapping pets is part of the utility.  Conjurors are able to adapt to situations better than most - they are what a lot of fighters are fighting for right now.  They have the ability to tank (although limited compared to a real tank) and do DPS.  They also have the oddball utilities like procs (Firesead) and splinters.  They have a ward, group buffs, pet buffs and a pet heal.  There is all kinds of utility there that preclude them from being in Tier 1.  Kind of like the rogues, summoners are a mix of utility and DPS (and better off in the utility department than rogues). Personally, I think sorcerers should give up some utility for T1 damage, but that is just me.  I definately think the summoners are right where they should be in the new pyramid.</span><div></div>

[K'aldar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote: <div>I think we should certantly be in the top tier of dps....not doing the exact same damage as a warlock, but up there in terms of dps.  The tiers of hte pyramid should be significantly different, otherwise there is no point in tiering them to begin with.  If conjurors are intended to be this utility machine, why do we even have the dps pets to begin with?  They are a waste of 2 spells we could have if they arent going to produce dps for us.</div> <div> </div> <div>I find it ironic that a warlock is here talking about being overpowered.</div><hr></blockquote>Swapping pets is part of the utility.  Conjurors are able to adapt to situations better than most - they are what a lot of fighters are fighting for right now.  They have the ability to tank (although limited compared to a real tank) and do DPS.  They also have the oddball utilities like procs (Firesead) and splinters.  They have a ward, group buffs, pet buffs and a pet heal.  There is all kinds of utility there that preclude them from being in Tier 1.  Kind of like the rogues, summoners are a mix of utility and DPS (and better off in the utility department than rogues). Personally, I think sorcerers should give up some utility for T1 damage, but that is just me.  I definately think the summoners are right where they should be in the new pyramid.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>well said, i agree with you 100%</span><div></div>

[Ishbu]

Yeah, if sorcerers want to give up some utliity, im fine with it, as I have said in other posts elsewhere.  But, SOE has said nothing about any classes losing any abilities, and as it stands, warlocks already have basically the same amount of utility as we do. 

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Yeah, if sorcerers want to give up some utliity, im fine with it, as I have said in other posts elsewhere.  But, SOE has said nothing about any classes losing any abilities, and as it stands, warlocks already have basically the same amount of utility as we do.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>No they don't.  They have utility, and quite a bit.  NOWHERE near as much as a conj though.</span><div></div>

[StaticLex]

<DIV>Well if that chart is what they are aiming for then berserkers need one hell of a nerf because they're TWO tiers below me, I don't have crap gear/spells at all... yet I am constantly out-DPSed by that class.  :smileyindifferent:</DIV><p>Message Edited by StaticLex on <span class=date_text>07-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:45 PM</span>