What would ya like to see changed to the coercer class?

[AdiX__Styxx__]

hi, ive been a coercer since day one took a long break in t6 cause i just got too frustrated of being so painfully broke anyways it seems that coercers are doing a lot better this day so i would jsut like to see what yall think about what ya would like to see changed still to the class! Here ill start with what i woudl like changed: First the class spells: 1. We have spells that require thoughtstones to cast (beholders eye / channel and group mezz) these items get created if a target dies while under the influence of certain enchantments (cataclysmic / magus / spell scourge ) Now since thoughtstones are no longer temp why have them at all cause well my bags are always stuffed with the buggers and i always jsut keep one stack on me for when i log back in! the change i would like to see to this is to remove the requirement and the creation of the thoughtstones alltogheter its jsut a nuisance and doesnt really add any more to the class! 2. Cataclysmic is a spell we have that does damage to a mob when it uses power but currently mobs harldy ever use power so erm..... does this seem kinda useless to yall? and to top it off they make it a starting requirement for our class specific AA line / boggle? the change i would opt for here is to change it back the way it used to be in t5 when it was a pure nuke on a 30 sec timer i believe (not 100%) and to change the AA the same sonic boom AA is like now drop recast timer drop casting time think it used to take 2 secs back in the old days again not 100% about this anyways it would be a really good change cause as of now its just a wasted spell in my opinion! 3. Possesion hmm when i first got it i was like hmm whats this so i went to test it and it utterly useless in combat had high hopes but sadly dissapointed! right now its just a fluff spell and does nothing more then aggrivate people or make them smile! The changes i would make to this spell are various ill list them :     1. make it so we can use it in combat and actually turn a mob against their allies keep the stun of the coercer and the changed sight thats rather cool! this way it would be actually fun to playu around with wether or not its plausible to use in this form i am not sure off! but at least ya can posses a fighter and get it off yer charmed pet or something i see possibilities!     2. half the duration from 32 s to 16 sec and make it jsut go crazy like as if it were possesed by the devil and attack his own allies mashing all his attacks kinda like a berzerk state but without stunning the coercer or preventing the coercer from casting anything else! if 16 secs is too powerfull maybe even just 8 secs but the recast should be significantly lowered! but the coercer cannot tell the mob what to do it will just fly all directions aoeing anything so its situational at best cause certain zones jsut are bad for AOE ( blades tower anyone + sonic boom?)     3. Remove it altogheter and give us something else that doesnt increase our dps like an extra mezz i had times in mistmoore castle where i used charm as a mezz cause there were just too many mobs to handle sure i managed to handle it eventually but still if i had 3 mezzes like illusionists it would be a tad easier to handle with all the resists lately! or maybe an extra stun instead with a daze when it ends!     4. change it to a secondary charm with low duration (like this option the least) no explanation necesary cause its prolly odd to be able to charm 3 mobs if ya went for the charm AA in the enchanter tree! Ok those are the options how i would like it changed tbh i like the #2 best but hey im not the only coercer that plays eq2 so would like to hear some thoughts! 4. harmonous line well i really like this line altough there is something that really bothers me about it, the hate decrease is great dont change that at all the thing thats odd is that players get hit and it does damage thats kidna strange for a deagro buff isnt it? The change i would like to see that we drop the damage when a targets gets hit altogheter i rather have it give power on a succesfull attack or hostile spell its kinda like the illusionist deagro on a hostile spell and proc damage well instead of damage we proc more power not entirely sure about other options to this but im sure other coercers have their ideas about it! plz share them! Now for our AAs the enchanter AAs first: well i am specced agi + int and i really like it! altough i would like to see some more viable options for a dps coercer like the dagger strenght line really kinda blows its useless beyond believe for a caster so maybe something more usefull for it havent really thought about what to change it too but again im sure the community can help me out with this! One idea tho is to make it charm based as to give pet more strenght and more damage potential or something! a lil bit more like a solo AA line! Or make charmed pets take less damage anything that helps our class specific spells ! for illusionist this could help their pet out too! erm whats it called again personae or something? yea how does that sound to yall? Lets take a look at the coercer specific lines: I went for tashiana myself and am really loving it, not having to wait for a dispatch is great or imagine charming a mob while its under the effect of tashiana and marred + breakdown thats like practically unbreakable charm! (if i can believe tanatus on his debuffing b4 charm and i do, thx again for that one Tanatus)! Altough i would like to see the duration upped a bit for a 1 min recast i think 10 sec duration is a bit low! Whats sadly a bit iffy is the dispel line not sure what the devs had in mind with this but in other forums it seems to be broken or not working like we thought it would be intended! Anyways would be nice to be able to dispell hostile controls on any given target so we can undo a charm on our MT! but hey its just a thought! Now i was really looking forward to going to thoughtsnap after i got tashiana but i also read that it doesnt work! Think the idea is great altough again even after it working i think the duration should be a lil higher maybe 9 secs or even 10 secs! and i wonder if its supposed to work on epics cause currently its not in our description! K now we have the mana line its been discussed again in other threads about reaching cap easily with a bard in group so i think this should be looked at and give us some other tools altough keep the gorging line in there cause it doesnt apply to the cap also the transfer potential should remain! Now the last line coercive healing again this doesnt work as the description says /sobb! Anyways lets say it all works then i only have one problem wiht this line which is mindbend!!!! why for peets sake is that in there cause it only affects mobs upto 72 and resistability will increase on higher mobs....so why did we get this as a choice again the change i would like to opt for is remove that 72 crap from that spellline or give us another AA! Mindbend is an ancient spell and any class that has ancient spells can use them upto whatever lvl they want without a penalty why are we penalised? in our AA tree like this? i might be wrong that some classes actualyl have the same problem but i dont know which they are anyways plz take a look at that for us soe! ok last change i want to opt for is to allow coercers to wear plate cause we die way too easy to a epic mob! woudlnt it be great if we could tank an epic!!!!!! /hahah no now im jsut teasing! Anyways replies plz interested in what yall wanna say or think <div></div>

[Mr. Dawki]

<DIV>id be happy if the changed auspex to proc when the mob gets hit not when the mob hits something else</DIV> <DIV>honestly a coercers job is to stop a mob from hitting people ie. stun, mez, silence, daze</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a coercer is a completly contradictory class to its primary way to dps</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mr. Dawkins on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[The Dark Savant]

<div></div>As regards Possession - try using it on a double or triple-up. It's worthless on solo mobs, but as a triple-up you'll break 1k DPS just by auto-attacking. If you do more than 50% of group damage with Possession you'll "steal" the kill (as it doesn't count as yours or the party's damage), but it does have it's moments. I'll agree it could use some serious looking at, as it's glitchy and the inability to cast in combat is a pain, but it's not useless. I use it a bit in T7 heroic instances when crowd control isn't an issue and I just want to top the parse and amuse myself. It helps to have a group that knows exactly what you're doing and what the rainbow-coloured creature means, though. You also need to be really sure some add isn't going to appear that requires mezzing while you're fooling around (though you can pull it off with the possessed creature, drag it away, cancel possess and charm the add) and that your healer/tank are able to take incoming damage without your stuns. Oh, and if you wipe the group by using Possession clumsily, they might not give you a second chance.I agree thoughtstones are completely superfluous and just fill backpacks, and that the cataclysmic line is seriously wonky; some mobs out there do use a lot of mana and take some decent damage from it, most don't, and the scaling of the spell between it's various tiers is ugly (compare a master 1 of the very first spell in the line to an adept 3 of the final spell in the line to see what I mean).The coercer class in general I feel is solid. Mindbend's resistability above 72 is stupid, especially as the spell is now upgradeable by AAs. Alongside the cataclysmic line we have another rather impotent spell ine in the Lashing Gaze encounter-dot-drain; it probably parses okay on big encounters and adds a little bit extra, but it just seems amazingly underwhelming in all regards. Can't expect every spell we have to be awesome, though.<div></div><p>Message Edited by The Dark Savant on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span>

[The Dark Savant]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mr. Dawkins wrote:<div></div> <div>id be happy if the changed auspex to proc when the mob gets hit not when the mob hits something else</div> <div>honestly a coercers job is to stop a mob from hitting people ie. stun, mez, silence, daze</div> <div> </div> <div>a coercer is a completly contradictory class to its primary way to dps</div><p>Message Edited by Mr. Dawkins on <span class="date_text">12-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:25 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>This is true, and I've often cursed my inability to benefit fully from Auspex and Spell Scourge while using my stuns, daze and stifle. However, I've come to view it as a similar to the way rogues get both taunts and detaunts, seemingly incompatible powers; one is for when they're tanking, one is for when they're DPSing. In the same way, we have reactives for when we're DPSing (either solo with a charmed pet, or in a group with a good tank/healer), and control spells for when the added defense is required; we pick a tactic when the situation demands it.We also can mix it up a bit - use Stifle and Auspex, or Torrent and Scourge; you're cutting off one source of damage on one front and still providing some reactive damage on the other. It's a compromise. It's true that illusionists don't have this conflict of interests, and is one of the (several) reasons they out-DPS us, but eh. We can still put their DPS to shame when we have the right charmed pet.</div>

[Mordion89]

<DIV>possession does has some rare case uses, but do those minor uses really justify it being a lvl65 ancient spell? having a final spell that is totally useless in raids really annoys me</DIV>

[The Dark Savant]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mordion89 wrote:<div>possession does has some rare case uses, but do those minor uses really justify it being a lvl65 ancient spell? having a final spell that is totally useless in raids really annoys me</div><hr></blockquote>Probably not. If I could see Possession changed from what it is now to - powerful in certain very situational moments, useless most of the time - to something that's useful all the time, even if it lacks the amusing "omg the coercer topped the parse" factor, then I'd be all for it. That said: we do have amnesia and channel as useful raid powers still, while mindbend and possession contribute little to a raid. As effective as they can be, amnesia and channel are just kind of boring, while possession is way cool. It'd be nice to keep some general way cool concept rather than have another bland but reliable ancient teaching. Function over form, though.</div>

[Nupr]

<DIV>The only thing I could really think of doing with possession is increasing it's range.  Especially since you can't cast it on an agro mob.  I just think of it as a fun spell due to it's limited application so whatever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the major thing that bothers me is the power DOT effects on our stun and stifle.  It's useless and the only thing it serves is to break mezzes if I had to cast a stun while waiting for a mez refresh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other thing that bothers me is our reliance on mobs being effective in order to DPS, as someone already mentioned.  And when mobs are stunned and stifled and dazed our DPS shrinks to embarassing levels.  Tricky situational spells should be reserved for high DPS whammies, not mainline nukes.</DIV>

[electricninjasex]

What's dumb about Possession is that the possessed mob uses YOUR faction instead of its own, before a single attack has even been launched.  You should be able to use it for spy work.  And the duration is completely insufficient.Furthermore, possession should work on charmed mobs.<div></div>

[Cattastrophy]

I did want to say one thing about Possession, YES we should be able to use it on mobs already in combat, I agree 100%, although,  if you don't know how to use it properly, please don't complain about it. I use it all the time in instances and break 3,000 DPS easily.  Not just that, but with out getting aggro from other mobs. If they made the duration longer or changed how things react we'd be to powerful. Period, I'ed change JUST the "in combat" issue. Another Mezz, ppfftt no need... I can handel 6 mobs w/o a problem and w/o charming. If we had another mezz Illus would complain because then we'd be inline with them for mezz and they'ed want a short duration charm or soemthing to even it out. (might wana work on your Subj if you are getting resists in MM, I have less than a 5% resist rate in there with 443 Subj.) Although lowering the recat timers would be nice... but then again, we'd be to poweful. On the flip side, You do have some other really good ideas, but you have to look at it like this; there are currently 3 different types of Coercers. Speed, Control, DPS, Raid, and with a healthy mix of the 4. Depending on what you are going for you will be better in different areas. For example... if you went Crono for speed and did the INT/damage line to help on DPS you'll hit the Parse on raids, but when trying to mezz something EXPECT TO GET RESISTS OFTEN. You aren't building yourself as a control (Dream Weaver) Coercer so you don't have that HUGE Subj boost for Mezzing and Charm. On the flip side however, If you built yourself as a control / raid coercer, you'll never see the parse unless they let you charm on raids. Then lastly there's the Solo coercer which is a mix of speed and control... only problem is you're almost useless on raids (minus the mana battery of course). The only "spells" I believe that need changing are the reactive damage ones. Mobs don't cast enough to make either of the reactive casting spells worth it... and Auspex... yeah... it's totally situational and also need to be fixed. I think they both should be changed to proactive instead, although if they did that the damage would have to get nerfed... or we'd take aggro constantly on raids. That's my 2cp <div></div>

[Norrsken]

<div></div>The power useage damage proc is wonderful for pvp, they just have to fix mobs so they actually use power and its gonna be really juicy for pve as well. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Possesion is an eyesore as its current incarnation though. Id like to see it castable on your pets, longer duration, and not breaking encounters inv arious ways. And, seeing how they have improved charm since the game was released, we might actually get it fixed some day, in like a year or so. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by roxer2b on <span class=date_text>12-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 AM</span>

[schmee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cattastrophy wrote:...but you have to look at it like this; there are currently 3 different types of Coercers. Speed, Control, DPS, Raid, and with a healthy mix of the 4. Depending on what you are going for you will be better in different areas. For example... if you went Crono for speed and did the INT/damage line to help on DPS you'll hit the Parse on raids, but when trying to mezz something EXPECT TO GET RESISTS OFTEN. You aren't building yourself as a control (Dream Weaver) Coercer so you don't have that HUGE Subj boost for Mezzing and Charm. On the flip side however, If you built yourself as a control / raid coercer, you'll never see the parse unless they let you charm on raids. Then lastly there's the Solo coercer which is a mix of speed and control... only problem is you're almost useless on raids (minus the mana battery of course). <div></div><hr></blockquote>This is pretty invaluable awareness. Something to this effect would sit nicely in any coercer guide, I almost retired my coercer after EoF combat revamp because I didn't really understand this and had gone chronomancer - when everything got resisted it freaked me out, and I thought we were hosed.This awareness of understanding that the class now has distinctly different ways of being played is going to be really important for anyone who is trying to understand the class - not mention it greatly changes the AA rationales from the past.And I rather like this reality, I think it's a very interesting dynamic for an already amazingly interesting class. <div></div><p>Message Edited by schmee on <span class=date_text>12-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[DemonStryd]

Also regarding the Cataclymic Mind spell:While I never use it in PvE, against the right classes in PvP (ones that use a boatload of power) it can be the make or break spell.  I've done 2.5k damage with it at adept 3 to a warlock on just one tick.<div></div>

[Aranieq]

<OL> <LI>Cataclysmic mind more effective (ie mobs use more of that unlimited power pool)</LI> <LI>Possession flagged for in combat use</LI> <LI>Faction spells - allows temporary boost in faction subjegation/INT based (eq1 glamour ect..)</LI> <LI>Illussion - small evil class much like ratonga size (for pets on raids) </LI> <LI>Aesthetic: More colorful class hats (reds/dark purple/green ect), and more vested vs robe armor sets flagged for coercer (our hat looks better with a vest IMO) Coercer looks more djinn/geanie-like with pantaloons and vest and less sorcerer like in a robe.</LI></OL> <P> </P>

[svartsmurfen]

<P>I want my fun spells to work on lvl 70 players.</P> <P>Ever seen a froglok worship? priceless.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cattastrophy wrote:<BR>I did want to say one thing about Possession, YES we should be able to use it on mobs already in combat, I agree 100%, although,  if you don't know how to use it properly, please don't complain about it. I use it all the time in instances and break 3,000 DPS easily.  Not just that, but with out getting aggro from other mobs. If they made the duration longer or changed how things react we'd be to powerful. Period, I'ed change JUST the "in combat" issue.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0033>Another Mezz, ppfftt no need... I can handel 6 mobs w/o a problem and w/o charming. If we had another mezz Illus would complain because then we'd be inline with them for mezz and they'ed want a short duration charm or soemthing to even it out. (might wana work on your Subj if you are getting resists in MM, I have less than a 5% resist rate in there with 443 Subj.) Although lowering the recat timers would be nice... but then again, we'd be to poweful.<BR></FONT><BR>On the flip side, You do have some other really good ideas, but you have to look at it like this; there are currently 3 different types of Coercers. Speed, Control, DPS, Raid, and with a healthy mix of the 4. Depending on what you are going for you will be better in different areas. <BR><BR>For example... if you went Crono for speed and did the INT/damage line to help on DPS you'll hit the Parse on raids, but when trying to mezz something EXPECT TO GET RESISTS OFTEN. You aren't building yourself as a control (Dream Weaver) Coercer so you don't have that HUGE Subj boost for Mezzing and Charm. On the flip side however, If you built yourself as a control / raid coercer, you'll never see the parse unless they let you charm on raids. Then lastly there's the Solo coercer which is a mix of speed and control... only problem is you're almost useless on raids (minus the mana battery of course).<BR><BR>The only "spells" I believe that need changing are the reactive damage ones. Mobs don't cast enough to make either of the reactive casting spells worth it... and Auspex... yeah... it's totally situational and also need to be fixed. I think they both should be changed to proactive instead, although if they did that the damage would have to get nerfed... or we'd take aggro constantly on raids.<BR><BR>That's my 2cp<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>Another mezz was just an idea ya know was just probing what other coercers thoughts were anyways i did manage to lock down pretty tough encounters with subj at 420 with dove song from a trouby and wihtout the dreamweaver line!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>But can you honestly say if 6 unlinked heroic mobs of lvl 72 is coming for yer group ya can handle it?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>well ya can but its freaky tough stuff! mezz 1 group mezz another fear them all chrono one and debuff on the run then charm one then ya got 3 mobs running back to the group mezz one group mezz another and sick yer charmed pet on last mob while ya root it!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>oh and ya havent even used yer stuns in there yet so yes it is possible (if ya dont get any resists) but its really hard and tough work!</FONT></P> <P>Now for possesion yea i havent even thought about using it on a charmed pet to make him use his ca s more frequent and get a lil bigger dps burst thats an amazing idea for this spell!</P> <P>Oh and you might think its usefull which is great and all but 32 secs having control of a non agroe mob....while not being able to use stuns / stifles / mezz etc seems over the top for me and on top of that no raid uses!</P> <P>someone else mentioned the perilaze gaze line where the power dot seemed trivial which it is! they should change the dot into raw power instead to get us in line with illusionists! think thats a nice idea or add an interupt instead or something the power dot just is wasted time unless they were added to yer group but then ya get overlapping spells since gorg thoughts used to be like that a long time ago!</P> <P>But yea im a speed / dps coercer altough that might change due to the fact that we lost our mt coercer due to raid times (/sad) and with subj increase ya only get 5% less resists in mmc but ya will see that those 5% are gonna happen just when the time is really bad and the mezzes are really needed in there! So not sure if ill change or not!</P> <P>Anyways good post even tho i agree semi with yas its stil a good post! keep up the good work so devs can see what we think about all this stuff<BR></P>

[Cattastrophy]

<div></div>"<font color="#ff0033">But can you honestly say if 6 unlinked heroic mobs of lvl 72 is coming for yer group ya can handle it?<font color="#ffffff">" If my group pulls 6 unlinked mobs... I normally let them die. That's a bad pull and the puller needs to be taught a lesson. My max unlinked "coming at me" is 4 with out anyone getting touched. Your AE stun works wonders, and yeah, like I said before, I have a very small resist rate on anything that's not 75+. My max Unlinked "adds" that I can handel is 6, the max "linked" I can handel is 8, as long as atleast 3 are in one linked group, if not, minus 2 for every unlinked. "</font></font>Now for possesion yea i havent even thought about using it on a charmed pet to make him use his ca s more frequent and get a lil bigger dps burst thats an amazing idea for this spell!" Yes I have, yes it would be awsome, but it would make us to powerful. When I possess something, if it is a normal class, I normally dish out about 20,000 ~ 45,000 damage on average in a 24 second period (give myself 6 sec on each side to put the mob back), IF I burn through all thier CAs and Spells. This isn't including my Auspex / Spell Lash / DoTs that are still ticking away. They do seriously need ot lower the casting time though... Here's a thought, change the casting time to either instant or 1 second. I have timed Possession a few times on a wondering add that was walking towards the group and still got it after it started attacking the group. (aka took out it's sword and what not) As long as no one creates any hate on the mob you can still possess. Soon as someone taunts, hits, or sneezes at it in the wrong way, it fails. But yeah, totally useless on raids... "ya only get 5% less resists in mmc" no no no... I have less than a 5% resist chance... over all... about 1 in 20 (or so) mobs resist me in MM and Nizara... in MMC it's about 1 in 100+ for resists... I don't get them there... period.Be the Coercer you wana be, I think the class is fine. Yeah I would like some stuff to be better, but then again, doesn't every class?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Cattastrophy on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 AM</span>

[Lleinen]

<P>1) Possession useable in-combat<BR>2) Power Drains replaced with something usefull (power sieve?)<BR>3) AE Mez able to overwrite itself<BR>4) Cataclysmic Mind useable<BR>5) 1 concentration charm<BR>6) Stroke do more damage<BR>7) AA increase for aggro buff<BR><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <STRONG>RUNE</STRONG> (any eq1 players should know this one)</P> <P>etc</P> <P>etc</P>