Why such the huge gap in power between AdepIII and Master I charm? [Archive]

View Full Version : Why such the huge gap in power between AdepIII and Master I charm?

FlamingDuck

10-29-2006, 08:53 AM

<DIV>This is the one thing that bothers me about the coercer. The gap in power between Adept III and Master I is so huge for charm. Why? Compare it to any other class they don't have this. It's so difficult to find coercer masters on my server, not to mention they cost and arm and leg. </DIV>

The Dark Savant

10-29-2006, 09:24 AM

<div></div>Wish I knew, and it doesn't feel quite right to me either. The last thing I want is for the Master to be nerfed - I spent all the money I had earned between two characters to buy my Master 1 Dominate - but Adept 3 really should be closer to Master 1 in power than it is now. The way the Master is now compared to the Adepts, I live in constant paranoia of someday reading a patch note that says "The Master level of the Charm-line of spells was increasing NPC spell damage more than intended, this has been fixed"...<div></div>

FlamingDuck

10-29-2006, 10:20 AM

<DIV>Yeah, I hope they don't nerf Master charms. I just want them to significantly improve Adept III because Adept III charm really is lame compared to master. Master is something like x5 the power of an Adept III charm which is ridiculous and making this class that much harder to play. I can't afford to spend 20+ plat on one master charm just to solo efficiently. Improve Adept III charm SOE PLEASE. </DIV>

Raidi Sovin'faile

10-29-2006, 01:13 PM

Master 1 is about 3 times stronger than Adept 3. And only in Combat Arts/Spells, so 90% of the mobs out there won't see this effectiveness all the time.And you can solo efficiently without Master charm. I did so long before I found one. Hell, sometimes you can't even get a decent pet for charm, or sometimes it's not a viable option.Lastly.. you don't have to spend 20 plat. Any master charm over lvl 20 will do in quality. Only the duration will be different.I have no idea why it's such a big difference, but it's not he be-all end-all of Coercers.<div></div>

MoonSorceror

10-29-2006, 01:32 PM

now they will nerv M1 for shure...

bluenadzisback

10-29-2006, 09:53 PM

i think thats its good to have a big differnts between the 2.. after all its a master the best u can get( other than M2).. there should be a big differnts between adept3 and masters on all spells.. for the most part charm is the only spell thats worth spenting more than 10p on ( depends how rich u are most ive spent on any master is 7p) ..most all of the other masters are nice to have but not great improvement..i still think that masters should be more rare and worth getting ..but than again there very few things to spent your plat on once at end game..Message Edited by bluenadzisback on 10-29-2006 08:53 AM

Venzule

10-30-2006, 03:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Dark Savant wrote: Wish I knew, and it doesn't feel quite right to me either. The last thing I want is for the Master to be nerfed - I spent all the money I had earned between two characters to buy my Master 1 Dominate - but Adept 3 really should be closer to Master 1 in power than it is now. The way the Master is now compared to the Adepts, I live in constant paranoia of someday reading a patch note that says "The Master level of the Charm-line of spells was increasing NPC spell damage more than intended, this has been fixed"... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Because Adept III is player made and easily obtained. Done. Finished. Get Master I and dont get it nerfed by this "I dont get it" attitude. Jesus... can people be this dumb as to post such things without looking for a nerf? USE YOUR BRAIN PEOPLE!! If its good and is working for us.... Why post on a forum where SOE can read it and say... "Ummmm duhhh.... I dum tink Master I is tooo gud now, So dince is soo gud please increase the pwer of all the otter versons of dit" GOD! /endrant

The Dark Savant

10-30-2006, 05:40 AM

<div></div><div></div>Okay. I'm glad you got that rant out of your system, now let's move on. Incidentally, I don't want the power of all other versions of Charm increased; I personally found Adept 3 to be fine for soloing with. I say Adept 3 "should be closer" not in that I believe it should be buffed, but that compared to the difference in potency between Adept 3 and Master 1 in our other spells, that difference is glaringly different. Of course Master is meant to be better than Adept 3 because one is crafted and one is rare. This holds true to some degree for all masters in the game, but as a Coercer with Master charm, you would have to be either dishonest or in denial to say that Charm's difference between Adept 3 and Master 1 isn't way beyond anything else in the game; with the possible exception of summoner pets, which I know little about. My brigand's masters give him a noticeable damage boost over an adept 3, but you know as well as I do the difference Master Charm makes is in a league of it's own.I was unaware that the first rule of Master charm was don't talk about Master charm. It's one of our class-defining spells and, like every other element of our class, open to discussion. There are many possible answers to the question - you could suggest risk vs reward for the Charm line making it's upgrades more useful; you could point out that many of our control spells benefit little from Master, and this could be a balancing factor. You could answer in many ways. Your rant was one of those ways, but I do wish you'd opted for something a little more constructive.<div></div>Message Edited by The Dark Savant on 10-29-2006 04:41 PMMessage Edited by The Dark Savant on 10-29-2006 04:42 PM

FlamingDuck

10-30-2006, 06:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Venzule wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Dark Savant wrote: Wish I knew, and it doesn't feel quite right to me either. The last thing I want is for the Master to be nerfed - I spent all the money I had earned between two characters to buy my Master 1 Dominate - but Adept 3 really should be closer to Master 1 in power than it is now. The way the Master is now compared to the Adepts, I live in constant paranoia of someday reading a patch note that says "The Master level of the Charm-line of spells was increasing NPC spell damage more than intended, this has been fixed"... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Because Adept III is player made and easily obtained. Done. Finished. Get Master I and dont get it nerfed by this "I dont get it" attitude. Jesus... can people be this dumb as to post such things without looking for a nerf? USE YOUR BRAIN PEOPLE!! If its good and is working for us.... Why post on a forum where SOE can read it and say... "Ummmm duhhh.... I dum tink Master I is tooo gud now, So dince is soo gud please increase the pwer of all the otter versons of dit" GOD! /endrant <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ahem. Maybe I don't have piles of platinum to burn like you do and can afford the luxury of buying master charms and master everything else for 20-40pp each on top of full sets of twink gear. Not to mention because of my time zone it is difficult to find groups and I have to solo a large chunk of the time, thus I must rely on charm heavily. Soloing with an Adept III charm can obviously be done but let's face it it's painfully inefficient unless you buy a Master. The gigantic gap in power can't be ignored. No other class has a spell with such a massive jump in power between Adept III and Master I, so why should the coercer? <HR> The Dark Savant wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> Okay. I'm glad you got that rant out of your system, now let's move on. Incidentally, I don't want the power of all other versions of Charm increased; I personally found Adept 3 to be fine for soloing with. I say Adept 3 "should be closer" not in that I believe it should be buffed, but that compared to the difference in potency between Adept 3 and Master 1 in our other spells, that difference is glaringly different. Of course Master is meant to be better than Adept 3 because one is crafted and one is rare. This holds true to some degree for all masters in the game, but as a Coercer with Master charm, you would have to be either dishonest or in denial to say that Charm's difference between Adept 3 and Master 1 isn't way beyond anything else in the game; with the possible exception of summoner pets, which I know little about. My brigand's masters give him a noticeable damage boost over an adept 3, but you know as well as I do the difference Master Charm makes is in a league of it's own. I was unaware that the first rule of Master charm was don't talk about Master charm. It's one of our class-defining spells and, like every other element of our class, open to discussion. There are many possible answers to the question - you could suggest risk vs reward for the Charm line making it's upgrades more useful; you could point out that many of our control spells benefit little from Master, and this could be a balancing factor. You could answer in many ways. Your rant was one of those ways, but I do wish you'd opted for something a little more constructive. Message Edited by The Dark Savant on 10-29-200604:41 PM Message Edited by The Dark Savant on 10-29-200604:42 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Okay so I was a little bare bones with my rant, but like you mentioned the power gap between Adept III & Master I coercer charm compared to the gap with other class is obviously huge. Too huge to ignore. All I'm asking is that Adept III be upped in power a little to close the gap. Obviously Master I has to be more powerful then Adept III - definetely - but I just don't understand why the gap is so massive with this particular spell compared to all of the coercer's other spells as well as the spells/abilities of every other class. Message Edited by FlamingDuck on 10-29-200606:04 PM Message Edited by FlamingDuck on 10-29-200606:22 PM Message Edited by FlamingDuck on 10-29-200606:22 PMMessage Edited by FlamingDuck on 10-29-2006 06:22 PM

Oldlore

10-30-2006, 07:22 AM

While most spells follow the usual gradual progression up from App1 to Master1, it seems pet spells don't. Don't forget that necro/conj pet master spells are even rarer to see on the broker (and cost more) than coercer charms, at least on permafrost. Pet masters in general tend to be much bigger damage upgrades when ya jump from ad3 to master, probably because they use CAs'spells. So i'm not really surprised that coercer charm works the same way.<div></div>

The Dark Savant

10-30-2006, 07:31 AM

<div>FlamingDuck: The rant I was referring to was Venzule's, not yours. I can see where both of you are coming from, but I'd rather be honest about it and admit the gap in power between Master and Adept 3 makes me uncomfortable than just pretend like it isn't a big deal; likewise, I don't know why this is, but I can probably come up with a few reasons why it could be justified.I'm guessing the reason for Venzule's somewhat volatile reaction is because many Coercers, including myself, have paid a great deal for our Masters; both a nerf to the Master or a buff to Adept 3 would plummet the value of the spell. I don't really think SOE is going to nerf it based on discussions on this forum, though. Sure, SOE can see us talking about it here, but SOE staff can also see it in the game (assuming they play Coercers, which hopefully they do.)OldLore: I suspected that the pet spells might also get the same significant boost in power that Charm does between Adepts and Masters. If summoners and illusionists have their pets increase at the same order of magnitude, then I wouldn't think there'd be anything to worry about with Charm being out of line.</div>

FlamingDuck

10-30-2006, 09:16 AM

<DIV>I understand many coercers have invested a large amount of time and effort and especially plat to get a hold of those master charms and don't want to see it nerfed. I certainly hope they don't nerf it. I'd be equally [Removed for Content] off if I spent so much plat on them and then saw it nerfed. But I feel like the class is reserved for veterans who've accumulated tons of plat and as such can afford to deck their coercer in the all powerful master charms which is the very defining trait of the coercer. (Yeah I know they got mezz and power regenertion which is also fun and cool but it's those charms that make coercers a blast.) It just isn't right folks. There are so many people out there that won't play a coercer if they didn't have Master charms - the power gap is that significant. Shorten the power gap a bit between Adept III & Master I, otherwise it simply isn't fair. </DIV>

Fael

10-30-2006, 05:58 PM

I thought I was the only one [Removed for Content] about this. Honestly it is the ONLY reason I dont play a Coercer. I tried, but I play on Test. Masters just arent available with the tiny player base (but a player base of the best people around). I know I will never find any Masters, and playing a trio of Coercers that just switched to Illusionist.Just smooth out the differences I say.<div></div>

Outerspace

10-30-2006, 07:31 PM

The difference probably should not be as much as it is. However, I dont think Master needs to be nerfed - I believe Adept 1 and Adept 3 should be improved a little. Master charmed caster pets are not overpowered, they just look it because they do some large nukes. Add up the DPS over a period of time and you see on average even the best pet is only doing about 800 DPS.To the guy earlier that was complaining about it costing 20-40pp for the Master charm - try being a summoner class. You pay the premium for Domination or Dominate because it's LOADS better than Adept 3. However, I regularly see conjurer and necro scout pets selling for more than 100 plat in auction (remember they have 3 pets too so maybe they have to spend 200pp or more for all of them), and I don't think they are the same improvement on Adept 3 as Domination is.<div></div>

Venzule

10-30-2006, 07:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlamingDuck wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> Ahem.</BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe I don't have piles of platinum to burn like you do and can afford the luxury of buying master charms and master everything else for 20-40pp each on top of full sets of twink gear. Not to mention because of my time zone it is difficult to find groups and I have to solo a large chunk of the time, thus I must rely on charm heavily. Soloing with an Adept III charm can obviously be done but let's face it it's painfully inefficient unless you buy a Master. The gigantic gap in power can't be ignored. No other class has a spell with such a massive jump in power between Adept III and Master I, so why should the coercer? Currently I have a level 43 Coercer. I started him with ZERO plat from any of my other characters. I am not a power player. My highest character is this Coercer. So I dont have piles of plat to burn. As a matter of Fact, I currently have all my spells mastered, I have Dominate Master I sitting in the bank waiting for level 47, Decent gear AND 8 plat in the bank. So the question is "What are you doing wrong?" So pretty much what your asking for is that Master Charm be nerfed because you cant afford it???!! Or simply because you need to solo???!! Ahem... "Whhaaaaaaaaaaa!" Yes, im sure every Coercer on this forum would love to help you by Nerfing our Master Charm so you can sleep at night. If you think SOE is going to boost the power of Adept III rather than lower the power of Master Charm you sir are a [Removed for Content]. Please stop this Nerf campaign at once. I finally found a class that I love to play, Charm is all we have and you want it nerfed!! <HR> Okay so I was a little bare bones with my rant, but like you mentioned the power gap between Adept III & Master I coercer charm compared to the gap with other class is obviously huge. Too huge to ignore. All I'm asking is that Adept III be upped in power a little to close the gap. Obviously Master I has to be more powerful then Adept III - definetely - but I just don't understand why the gap is so massive with this particular spell compared to all of the coercer's other spells as well as the spells/abilities of every other class. Some spells have a much bigger difference between Adept III and Master I. Some dont. Get over it before you get us nerfed.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR>

Venzule

10-30-2006, 07:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Outerspace wrote: The difference probably should not be as much as it is. However, I dont think Master needs to be nerfed - I believe Adept 1 and Adept 3 should be improved a little. Master charmed caster pets are not overpowered, they just look it because they do some large nukes. Add up the DPS over a period of time and you see on average even the best pet is only doing about 800 DPS. To the guy earlier that was complaining about it costing 20-40pp for the Master charm - try being a summoner class. You pay the premium for Domination or Dominate because it's LOADS better than Adept 3. However, I regularly see conjurer and necro scout pets selling for more than 100 plat in auction (remember they have 3 pets too so maybe they have to spend 200pp or more for all of them), and I don't think they are the same improvement on Adept 3 as Domination is. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Sadly SOE doesnt think this way. They will nerf down Master I charm before they improve the Adept line. One spell is a rare drop, the other is easily obtained!! This is why its a BIG difference. If Master I charms were common drops than yes, you there would be a reason to up the Adept line. and to agree with you: Your right about the 20-40 plat. This guy should try to play a Necro. Everything on a Necro is 20-40 plat. The Master I versions of pet spells are 75+ plat.

The Dark Savant

10-30-2006, 08:29 PM

Nobody is trying to get the Master charm nerfed. You make it sound like just bringing up the subject of Master charm is asking for trouble. If summoner pets and charm both scale in this manner, and have been doing so since the beginning, then SOE are aware of it. They've fixed far more subtle and obscure "exploits" in the past, like the Coercer experience on pet death, without touching Charm - which, with or without us playing the three wise monkeys, is frequently mentioned on this forum. All SOE have to do is look at the numerous threads where soloing heroics and dangerous instances is discussed and they'd get much more "nerf-evidence" than in this entire thread. The question being asked here isn't "Why is Master charm so powerful?", but "Why the huge difference?" You can consider the former to be suggesting the Master is overpowered, but the second is just an honest question. There are ways to respond to it without being abrasive.Having said that, Adept 3 really is sufficient for soloing as a coercer, it's just a lot less fun, less safe, and slower (as you'd expect). You're not completely handicapped without the Master charm, and you will be able to solo well, although I totally feel for anyone who finds the Master constantly eluding them. <div></div>

Venzule

10-30-2006, 08:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Dark Savant wrote: Nobody is trying to get the Master charm nerfed. You make it sound like just bringing up the subject of Master charm is asking for trouble. If summoner pets and charm both scale in this manner, and have been doing so since the beginning, then SOE are aware of it. They've fixed far more subtle and obscure "exploits" in the past, like the Coercer experience on pet death, without touching Charm - which, with or without us playing the three wise monkeys, is frequently mentioned on this forum. All SOE have to do is look at the numerous threads where soloing heroics and dangerous instances is discussed and they'd get much more "nerf-evidence" than in this entire thread. The question being asked here isn't "Why is Master charm so powerful?", but "Why the huge difference?" You can consider the former to be suggesting the Master is overpowered, but the second is just an honest question. There are ways to respond to it without being abrasive. Having said that, Adept 3 really is sufficient for soloing as a coercer, it's just a lot less fun, less safe, and slower (as you'd expect). You're not completely handicapped without the Master charm, and you will be able to solo well, although I totally feel for anyone who finds the Master constantly eluding them. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I hear what your saying but I've been playing MMO's for a long time and the fix is never what the player base wants. As a matter of fact most of the time it works out to be the complete opposite. I feel for those who don't have Master I charm but all I can say is keep plugging. I am amazed every time I speak to a Coercer who thinks after the max level of the Charm is reached they think they cant use it anymore, this couldn't be more wrong. The stun when it breaks gets resisted ALOT more but thats it. I am level 43, I am using Coerce still. Coerce has a max level of 40 for charming pets without extra reists. Its working great for me. I purchased the Coerce spell for I think 75 gold. If people cant get up 75 gold for 20+ levels of charm than they are doing something terribly wrong. I am on the Guk server. I just sold a Coerce spell for 55 gold, there is current 2 beguile spells for sale for 4 plat each I think. There was about 4-6 dominate spells for sale within the last month ranging from 2.5-7.5 plat. Its a completely affordable spell and its fine as it is. I think people don't know how to manage money. If people cant get up 55-1 plat in coin to buy Master I Coerce something is terribly wrong. That is my diplomatic response. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Message Edited by Venzule on 10-30-2006 07:47 AM

The Dark Savant

10-30-2006, 09:02 PM

<div></div>Diplomacy suits you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It's very true that a coercer will get a Master charm sooner or later. Obviously the best time to have a Master charm is right now, but they do drop, and they don't always get listed for ridiculous prices, and you will do fine solo or in groups without one. A master charm is also a nice, attainable milestone for a Coercer to aim for.Coming into this thread, my concern/uncertainty was at the difference in progression between Ad3/M1. Considering that I've learned pet spells work in the same way, I guess it can just be put it down to the way the pet skill system works. I was worried about it being a mistake initially, a wrong decimal point somewhere; not because I thought Master was too good, but because of the increase over Ad3. But If all pet spells work like this, then the difference is explained, and I don't have to worry about it. Well, maybe I can keep worrying just a little.<div></div>

Outerspace

10-30-2006, 09:46 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Venzule wrote:Sadly SOE doesnt think this way. They will nerf down Master I charm before they improve the Adept line. <hr></blockquote>Unfortunately you're right, which is why these threads should probably be left alone :smileyindifferent:</div>

Venzule

10-30-2006, 09:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Dark Savant wrote: Diplomacy suits you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's very true that a coercer will get a Master charm sooner or later. Obviously the best time to have a Master charm is right now, but they do drop, and they don't always get listed for ridiculous prices, and you will do fine solo or in groups without one. A master charm is also a nice, attainable milestone for a Coercer to aim for. Coming into this thread, my concern/uncertainty was at the difference in progression between Ad3/M1. Considering that I've learned pet spells work in the same way, I guess it can just be put it down to the way the pet skill system works. I was worried about it being a mistake initially, a wrong decimal point somewhere; not because I thought Master was too good, but because of the increase over Ad3. But If all pet spells work like this, then the difference is explained, and I don't have to worry about it. Well, maybe I can keep worrying just a little. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Thats all my point was as well. Just keep trying to get it and dont look for handouts from SOE. Asking SOE to increase the power of Adept III could possibly call unneeded attention to the Master Line of this spell possibly getting it nerfed. Just like you worry, I worry all the time about Coercers. I finally found a class that I love to play beyond the level 30 mark and want to continue to the level 70 mark. I wait with horror every patch to see changes made to our class. SOE has done it to me before and in IMO destroyed what was once a fun class to play (Ranger). I think the reason SOE leaves us alone is because our numbers are small. If everyone suddenly became a Coercer they would nerf us swiftly.

Aoi

10-30-2006, 11:32 PM

While I am not as paranoid as most, I just do not get the whole concept of master charm being so prohibitive for the average player. Notwithstanding the fact that just about any charm master will work, it is still ridiculously easy to solo farm cash with an AD3 charmed pet. Anyone who says otherwise is either lazy or just bought their character off ebay. It's sad when people can't get motivated to buy their class defining master, especially for a class that, with the exception of like 2 or 3 spells, has the cheapest masters of almost any class in the game. I also love how people who do nothing but solo assume that players in high end, raiding guilds have all this cash lying around to buy all their masters. Given the amount of money I spend on repairs, potions, food, and repair kits, I would say the exact opposite is true. The saving grace of course is the guild takes care the master spells that otherwise I would be unable to ever buy myself. I don't want to be one of those players who says that soloers don't have a place in MMO's, but I will certainly say that getting the same equip as those who group/raid frequently SHOULD be a hell of a lot harder. Whether that means plat, or farming, or camping....whatever, deal with it or get some friends to help you. Sorry for the mini rant, just ticks me off that Coercers as a class have one of the most impactful masters in the game, and people whine that is costs too much. IMHO, make it NO DROP so people will [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Cyene

Tanatus

10-31-2006, 09:19 AM

Wrong ,... Imo ALL Adept 3 should be serious scaled down compare to Master 1

FlamingDuck

10-31-2006, 03:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote: Wrong ,... Imo ALL Adept 3 should be serious scaled down compare to Master 1 <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> ....and make all classes unfun?

Venzule

10-31-2006, 07:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote: Wrong ,... Imo ALL Adept 3 should be serious scaled down compare to Master 1 <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I think its fine as it is. At least with the difference in power with the Coercer charm line. A rare master drop should mean something and with this spell it really does. Now with other spells maybe your right, the value of a player made spell should be equally less to Master I as charm.

Tanatus

11-01-2006, 08:27 AM

Nope give the edge the powergamers as it should be since they are main sourse of income for SOE ...