The myth of the Coercer power regeneration

[nithrill]

<DIV>Occasionally our brethren feel that we have it all, including power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, I figured that I'd show them exactly how much better we are at it than they are <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note: You can skip ahead to the conclusion below if you don't feel like reading the gory details of how we just own <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For this discussion I will concentrate on group power regen and on spells usable by a character at level 70. Also assume that I am talking about master 1 versions of all spells except Mana Cloak, which can only be found in Adept 3 versions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, to make all comparisons clearer, I will convert power regen/spent to power gained/lost per second.  This point is very important as it shows exactly how much the spells give as a benefit in the long run (e.g. if a spell has 1 power per second then after 100 seconds the power spent/gained will have been equal to 100 points).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionists have 4 spells that give power to the group:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><STRONG>spell              level ct   r rec dur  notes</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Mana cloak          35    2 0.5 900 180  33% chance to give 120-200 in power on a melee hit</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Savante             52    2 0.5 150  30  reduces power spenditure by 56%</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Epiphany            61    3 0.5  10   -  adds 41.0 to in-combat power regen (one tick is 6s)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Devitalizing Gazes  62    2 0.5  45  24  drains target encounter giving 49 power/4s to group</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Coercers also have 4:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><STRONG>spell              level ct   r rec dur  notes</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT face="Courier New">Mana cloak          35    2 0.5 900 180  33% chance to give 120-200 in power on a melee hit</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Gorging thoughts    60    2 0.5  45  24  decreses int of target giving 41 power/6s to group</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Ease                61    3 0.5  10   -  adds 41.0 to in-combat power regen (one tick is 6s)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Beholder's Eye      62    3 0.5  60 600  adds 14.6 to in-combat power regen (one tick is 6s)</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>As a side note Channel isn't included at this point as I want to concentrate on power regeneration for the group and since Channel doesn't increase the total power pool of the group it doesn't strictly belong at this level of the discussion (Channel only distributes the total group power evenly and at a loss if you have anything less than a master).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, to simplify comparisons, we can do away with Mana Cloak (exists for both classes), Epiphany and Ease (as they are equivalent).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This leaves us with:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Savante             52    2 0.5 150  30  reduces power spenditure by 56%</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Devitalizing Gazes  62    2 0.5  45  24  drains target encounter giving 49 power/4s to group</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Gorging thoughts    60    2 0.5  45  24  decreses int of target giving 41 power/6s to group</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Beholder's Eye      62    3 0.5  60 600  adds 14.6 to in-combat power regen (one tick is 6s)</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>To better see what these spells are giving to the group we convert the regen rate to power per second (those who don't like that can upconvert to power per minute or any other over time measurement suitable to their needs).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Devitalizing Gazes</STRONG>: 49/4s = 12.25/s, but only for the duration.  Assuming the spell is used all the time and immediately when the recast expires then we get 49/4 * 24/(2+0.5+45) = <STRONG>6.19/s</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Gorging Thoughts</STRONG>: 41/6s = 6.83/s, but only for the duration.   Assuming the spell is used all the time and immediately when the recast expires then we get 41/6 * 24/(2+0.5+45) = <STRONG>3.45/s</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Beholder's Eye</STRONG>: 14.6/6 = <STRONG>2.43/s</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmm, I haven't even delt with Savante and it seems the Illusionists have already won (i.e. 2.43 + 3.45 = 5.88 < 6.19).  Well, just wait and see <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Savante calculations</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To figure out the power regen for Savante we can think of saved power as a regeneration over time.  For example, if normally I would have spent 1500 in power over a 30s period then Savante would save me a wooping 840 (i.e. I would only have spent 660 points) and since the period was 30s we can think of this as 840 regened over 30s which equals to 28 power/s, but the there are two complications.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First complication is that Savantes recast is 2m 30s so the effective power gain for the entire casting cycle would be 840/( 2 + 0.5 + 2*60 + 30&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> = 5.51/s.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second complication is that we realy don't know what the average power spent of a character is ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, there is only one way to find out <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... lets take as an example two different classes on a raid:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>a mt guardian and a dps wizard that doesn't go up and personal with the mobs.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>First the Guardian (whos main goal is to build agro).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The guardian has the following spells on his hot bar that he hits in a sequence from top to bottom as soon as the recasts allows:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>confront<BR>protection<BR>flay<BR>vindictive strike<BR>sever<BR>obliterate<BR>retaliation strike<BR>merciless charge<BR>staggering blow<BR>goading assault<BR>buffet<BR>compression<BR>overpower<BR>besiege</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>without going into to much details the casting sequence would start something like:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>confront<BR>protection<BR>flay<BR>vindictive strike<BR>sever<BR>obliterate<BR>retaliation strike<BR>merciless charge<BR>staggering blow<BR>goading assault<BR>confront<BR>buffet<BR>compression<BR>vindictive strike<BR>overpower<BR>besiege<BR>confront<BR>protection<BR>compression<BR>vindictive strike<BR>sever<BR>overpower<BR>merciless charge<BR>confront</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>which ends at the 29.3 s mark ( assuming no lag <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). This sequence costs the Guardian 1816 points which equals about <STRONG>62 power/s</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next the Wizard who wants to maximize his dps.  His hot bar is:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>iceshield<BR>ice nova<BR>frigid gift<BR>incapacitate<BR>ball of lava<BR>fiery convulsions<BR>irradiate<BR>glacial wind<BR>firestorm<BR>sunstrike<BR>electrifying flash<BR>protoferno</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Note that the wizard has often been killed by proximity ae and thus the raid leader has ordered him to stay out of melee range, thus Surging Tempest and Fusion are unavailable to him. In anycase the casting sequence would look something like:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>iceshield<BR>ice nova<BR>frigid gift<BR>incapacitate<BR>ball of lava<BR>fiery convulsions<BR>irradiate<BR>iceshield<BR>glacial wind<BR>ball of lava<BR>fiery convulsions</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>which ends at the 28.5 s mark. Total power spent = 2563, which calculates into 2563/28.5s = <STRONG>90 power/s</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Interesting how much more power the Wizard needs ... well, anyway ... assuming that these numbers are somewhat representative of the norm we can now go ahead and calculate how much Savante would benefit these characters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian: ( 2s + 0.5s + 150s&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> * 62 / s = 9455 total power spent normally during a savante cycle.  In 30s power spent is normally 30s * 62/s = 1860 of which Savante would save 1041.  Which is like having a 1041 / ( 2s + 0.5s + 150s&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> = <STRONG>6.83/s</STRONG> power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizard:  ( 2s + 0.5s + 150s&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> * 90 / s = 13725 total power spent normally during a savante cycle.  In 30s power spent is normally 30s * 90/s = 2700 of which Savante would save 1512.  Which is like having a 1512 / ( 2s + 0.5s + 150s&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> = <STRONG>9.91/s</STRONG> power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmm, still isn't looking too good for us Coercers is it ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Conclusions</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets look at the original tables again, but this time with power per second values and power per tick values (obviously calculated over a long period such as during a raid).  To add insult to injury I am just including the lower regen for Savante <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionists:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><STRONG>spell              level ct   r rec dur  pps   ppt</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Mana cloak          35    2 0.5 900 180  5.33  32*</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Savante             52    2 0.5 150  30  6.83  41</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Epiphany            61    3 0.5  10   -  6.83  41</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Devitalizing Gazes  62    2 0.5  45  24  6.19  37</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">                                       25.18 1 51</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Coercers:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><STRONG>spell              level ct   r rec dur  pps   ppt</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT face="Courier New">Mana cloak          35    2 0.5 900 180  5.33  32*</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Gorging thoughts    60    2 0.5  45  24  3.45  21</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Ease                61    3 0.5  10   -  6.83  41</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Beholder's Eye      62    3 0.5  60 600  2.43  14.6</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">                                       18.04 1 08.6</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>* Mana cloak rate was calculated assuming a combat hit every 2 seconds and just the average score. Also, it is usually only the mt that is getting hit this often and surviving.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Well, what can I say? I must be forgetting a spell for the Coercer. If you can find it then I'll adjust the numbers, but obviously we don't need that ... right ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, clearly Coercers are the winner here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Got a hand it to the Illus though, they sure are good at creating a smoke screen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<DIV>great post, awesome flawless math and yes they have more regen but... we have more fun!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>COERCER > ILLUSIONIST!</DIV>

[Celidya]

<P>There is one thing to add, the illusionnist power regen is more "active" while ours is more passive.</P> <P>That means, illu mana spells works mostly while casting spells and actually fighting the mobs, while ours work a lot better for emergency situations. When half of the group dies, and we have to keep 2 or 3 mobs mezzed while trying to rez/regen everybody, then our mana regen is amazing. Gorging thoughts is far better than devitalizing gaze, because the second one is a mana drain, so it doesn't work on a mezzed mob (or it will break the mezz, same as a dot), while GT is a debuff + a mana regen, it works perfectly on mezzed mobs. Same with our second in combat mana regen spells, it's far better than savante, because for savante to work you have to actually cast spells. This one may be more useful on big nameds, but again, i find that most of the time, we don't have any mana problems, and it's during an emergency problem that we need the regen...</P> <P>On the long run, i tried both, and i prefer coercer mana spells by far :smileyhappy:</P>

[Dorein]

<div></div>We counting Vicious Torment in there? I don't have the stats here on me and they don't count group wide, but that's another personal mana regen for Coercers... Again dunno if Illui's have a similar spell but that's out there. <img src="http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k165/raerosk/Esci4.jpg" height="195" width="550"><div></div>

[nithrill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dorein wrote:<BR> We counting Vicious Torment in there? I don't have the stats here on me and they don't count group wide, but that's another personal mana regen for Coercers... Again dunno if Illui's have a similar spell but that's out there.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, since I wanted to focus on comparing group power regen.</P> <P>But I'm glad you asked <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Technically it can be argued that VT + Channel could be used as an extra power regen and that goes something like this ...</P> <P>Vicious Torment gives the Coercer 41 power per 6 seconds = <STRONG>6.83 power/s</STRONG> and that divided across 6 group members would equal <STRONG>1.14 power/s per member</STRONG>.</P> <P>But that is only upto the point where Channel is used and assuming that the extra points acquired are not being spent by the Coercer.</P> <P>In other words, if the fight lasted for 7 min and the Coercer used Channel at the 5 min mark then the net power gain over the fight using VT + Channel would equal (41/6)/6 * 5/7 = 0.81 power/s.</P> <P>Note that this also means that the Coercer must at all times make sure that his power pool is above everyones elses or the VT + Channel combo isn't a net gain for the group minus the Coercer.</P> <P>In anycase, using the above example, the Coercer regen would look something like:</P> <DIV>Coercers:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><STRONG>spell              level ct   r rec dur  pps   ppt</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT face="Courier New">Mana cloak          35    2 0.5 900 180  5.33  32*</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Gorging thoughts    60    2 0.5  45  24  3.45  21</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Ease                61    3 0.5  10   -  6.83  41</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">Beholder's Eye      62    3 0.5  60 600  2.43  14.6</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">VT + Channel        xx    x   x   x   x  0.81  4.88</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New">                                        18.85 113. 5</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Note that the earlier that Channel is used in the fight the worse the power regen becomes (compared to when the fight ends and still assuming the Coercer never spends the extra points himself).</P> <P>But hey ... we are having more fun ... right <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Cersiana]

<DIV><FONT color=#99ff99 size=2>The exact usefulness of a class cant be measured in just numbers tho. You have to consider a bit of everything in the group. Imo neither class is better than the other, it simply depends on everything/one in the group. Idk how much you all raided or done long fights but channel is a very nice spell. Personally I can do plenty of dps while keeping my power basically maxed and when channel is needed it only puts a little bump in my step as i go bakc to my normal form of play and wow now look my group has mana too ^.^ Also falls on personal opinion I'd much rather have a coercer over an illu in groups no matter what character I'm on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff99 size=2>**Edited to add**</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff99 size=2>Man you spent a long time on this I bet nice job on the charts!</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Cersiana on <span class=date_text>10-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:15 AM</span>

[Fatuus]

<P>Coercers have more power that comes to them as a player at a much lower power cost. When you are fighting a lot of high end stuff, its common to put another aggro hugger in the MT group say</P> <P>MT / Defiler / Coercer / Dirge / Templar / Swash or Assassin</P> <P>Why do I bring this up...Coercers have a very low power cost dot that brings power to themselves. When I play my coercer in the MT group I often have a large power pool of power. With the added scout (if they are using a mana drain poison) they can also have a large power pool to sap power from. </P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>10-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:25 AM</span>

[Ghu]

<P>Interesting math but I'm not sure it reflects reality..</P> <P>In our guild we have 2 coercers and 2 Illusionists. They are divided as follows:</P> <P>Coercer #1 MT group (me)</P> <P>Coercer #2 Scout DPS group</P> <P>Illusionist #1 Mage DPS grp</P> <P>Illusionist #2 MA group</P> <P>(we might swap Coercer #2 with Illusinist #2 on some named encounters..)<BR></P> <P>Now here is the interesting part.. MT group is almost always full power. Scout DPS group is almost always full power. Mage DPS group is typically at 75% power and MA group is typically at 60% power. (At the end of trash and most named encounters)</P> <P>We have swapped the chanters around in the differant groups and the power levels at the end of the day follow the coercers i.e. whichever groups we put the coercers in, has more power at the end of the battle than the illusionists. These are my personal observations and I have no clue why this would be happening if illusionists were better mana batteries than Coercers.. the reality doesn't add up to the math in my experience.</P> <P>Vyndion </P>

[TuxDave]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ghunn wrote:<BR> <P>..enchanters around in the differant groups and the power levels at the end of the day follow the coercers i.e. whichever groups we put the coercers in, has more power at the end of the battle than the illusionists. These are my personal observations and I have no clue why this would be happening if illusionists were better mana batteries than Coercers.. the reality doesn't add up to the math in my experience.</P> <P>Vyndion </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I suspect it's due to a difference in player skill.  <BR>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ghunn wrote:<BR> <P>Interesting math but I'm not sure it reflects reality..</P> <P>In our guild we have 2 coercers and 2 Illusionists. They are divided as follows:</P> <P>Coercer #1 MT group (me)</P> <P>Coercer #2 Scout DPS group</P> <P>Illusionist #1 Mage DPS grp</P> <P>Illusionist #2 MA group</P> <P>(we might swap Coercer #2 with Illusinist #2 on some named encounters..)<BR></P> <P>Now here is the interesting part.. MT group is almost always full power. Scout DPS group is almost always full power. Mage DPS group is typically at 75% power and MA group is typically at 60% power. (At the end of trash and most named encounters)</P> <P>We have swapped the chanters around in the differant groups and the power levels at the end of the day follow the coercers i.e. whichever groups we put the coercers in, has more power at the end of the battle than the illusionists. These are my personal observations and I have no clue why this would be happening if illusionists were better mana batteries than Coercers.. the reality doesn't add up to the math in my experience.</P> <P>Vyndion </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is actually a poor setup. No matter how you slice it, realistically its pointless to take more then 2 enchanters along on a raid. 2 Coercers and 1 enchanter MAYBE...but your raid force would be much better served by a better setup</P> <P>ideally</P> <P>Coercer + Drige MT</P> <P>Coercer MA or illusionist (Coercer probably prefered)</P> <P>Dirge Scout DPS group</P> <P>Illusionist + troub Mage DPS...generally just troub</P> <P>The illusionist is nice for power hungry DPSers like warlocks and wizards...but the troub is critical to keeping them alive (40% group dehate anyone?). The big thing a coercer brings really is their cross raid dehate buff (which is 100X more useful then the illusionsit version) and their power regen (ignoring some resists of course).</P>

[Crono1321]

I'm beginning to doubt if Empathic link even works.  I'm so sick of all the theoretical number crunching- some people say aggro modifiers can be capped, some say they can't- no official word either way.  A coercer's ability to control the group's power is heavily reliant on planning and group setup.  Savante is more potent, but if a player is out of power or not casting, its useless.  Beholder's Eye still grants you 15 regen per tick regardless, adding up to 150power per minute.  Devitalizing Gazes and Gorging thoughts need to be matched up, that is not fair to have one give 8 less points per tick than the other. I am the only coercer on raid (and pretty much the only enchanter in guild), and being proactive is the best thing you can do.  Start off fights using your power utilities- Gorging thoughts in a radius where your raid group is going to be standing (scouts up near the mob), keep up VT always (you are a mana battery for channel!), try to keep up Transfer Potential as well.  Mana flow can be a chore but keep at it.  By the end of the fight your group may be running low on power.  Usually one of my brigands uses Mental Breach, so if I channel, each group member can gain 20-40% power from our 13000power or so combined (plus a few thousand more from other members).  This is vital on fights like chel drak, matron, and any other long fight in general.  Being a coercer can be a chore, and you may be underappreciated to scouts in terms of buffs, but they love you when they can go through a 10-15 minute fight without going oop if you are paying attention! <div></div>

[Karamba2]

<cite>nithrill wrote:</cite><blockquote> Illusionists: <span style="font-family: Courier New"><b>spell              level ct   r rec dur  pps   ppt</b></span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">Mana cloak          35    2 0.5 900 180  5.33  32*</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">Savante             52    2 0.5 150  30  6.83  41</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">Epiphany            61    3 0.5  10   -  6.83  41</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">Devitalizing Gazes  62    2 0.5  45  24  6.19  37</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">---------------------------------------------------</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">                                       25.18 1 51</span></blockquote> Coercers: <span style="font-family: Courier New"><b>spell              level ct   r rec dur  pps   ppt</b></span> <span style="font-family: Courier New"><span style="font-family: Courier New">Mana cloak          35    2 0.5 900 180  5.33  32*</span></span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">Gorging thoughts    60    2 0.5  45  24  3.45  21</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">Ease                61    3 0.5  10   -  6.83  41</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">Beholder's Eye      62    3 0.5  60 600  2.43  14.6</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">---------------------------------------------------</span> <span style="font-family: Courier New">                                       18.04 1 08.6</span></blockquote> * Mana cloak rate was calculated assuming a combat hit every 2 seconds and just the average score. Also, it is usually only the mt that is getting hit this often and surviving. Well, what can I say? I must be forgetting a spell for the Coercer. If you can find it then I'll adjust the numbers, but obviously we don't need that ... right ? Anyway, clearly Coercers are the winner here. Got a hand it to the Illus though, they sure are good at creating a smoke screen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <p></blockquote> </p><p> Ok am i the only 1 to notice slight disagreement between your calculations and conclusion...</p><p> Coercer regen - 18pps</p><p>Illusions regen - 25pps</p><p>And conclusion - coercer is mega wininng.....???</p>

[JackAll]

<p>You are just not reading it right.</p><p>He is being ironic</p>

[Karamba2]

<p>Well, i thought that was the case <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway, with new EoF AA line i can say that we can even get tie with illu on power draining mobs:</p><p>Manaward = 333 power over 60 sec (average pd aoe recast) = 5.55 pps</p><p>Enchanced gorging thoughts  + 25% = 0.86 pps (plus set bonus wich reduce recast will add some more)</p><p>Enchanced mana flow</p><p>And i dont completly agrre with op about channel being calculated as average power regen - it can do much more than its converted regen value. </p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>4 Classes, and the right combination of drink, totem, potion or simply killing things really quickly can fill the normal requirement for "slow regen". And for the most part, that's all the Illusionists have.</p><p>Coercers though, have a faster Manaflow (with AA) and Channel. When combined with Mana Cloak, and our own ability to self regen quickly (especially with AA's), we can bring folks back from a hard situation very, very quickly. Someone dies, healers going low on power on a long fight, adds show up at a crucial moment.... that "regen per tic" isn't gonna cut it. 300-500 power heals aren't going to be helped by an extra 80 points per 6 seconds. Not when you need the heal or rescue NOW.</p><p> Lightning fast power boosts is what saves a situation that would otherwise be a wipe. This is the only reason we would be chosen over another power regen, and it's a fairly good one.</p><p> I have personally, and repeatedly saved groups that would have otherwise wiped with Channel, Mana Cloak and stuns. Healer dies, I stun/mez, Necro rez's or Healer revives and runs back, I Channel power back to the healer, Mana Cloak is the Tank is also low and the fight will still be a while, etc.</p><p>This kind of "value" can't be quantified into some number that can be used to determine which class will be more useful for the role.</p><p>There is no one that can do what we can do with power regen, regardless if they can do slow regen better. And even then, only without AA's.</p>

[Verrie77]

<p>Anyone have any idea what the numbers whould be with all those AA you can give to a Coercers regen in the EoF-tree ?</p><p>Do Illus get that many aswell ? </p>

[Cattastrophy]

<p><cite>Crono1321 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm beginning to doubt if Empathic link even works.  I'm so sick of all the theoretical number crunching- some people say aggro modifiers can be capped, some say they can't- no official word either way. </blockquote></p><p>First I wanted to say [Removed for Content] AWESOME post man... holy numbers ahoy! I like facts, they are a wonderful thing... and on the topic of "facts". ALL AGGRO REDUCERS AND MODIFIERS HAVE A CAP OF 50% (or -50% respectively). It was clearly stated in LU 13 I believe (or one of the one close to it). That's why the Coercer Hate gain mod for level 66 (or 67... I forget) was taken away from the original spell line-up. The Adept 3 was 51% which is currently above the cap. Reguardless of what people say, it's capped, just like every other skill in the game. Thus why it's a waste to put our -23% hate gain on a mage that already has the Troub hate reducer on them. </p><p>Does the spell work? No idea, seems to for me. But I normally only have conc for 1 maybe 2 people. 78% DPS > -23% hate in my book, I like to see my conc go to better use, because if you really look a the numbers there... -23% hate gain only technically translates to, at the most, +23% to overall DPS -IF- they use the buff to it's fullest potential, which is very unlikely. So Yeah, I think it's a waste unless the person knows it's on them and knows their personal DPS limits VERY well.</p><p>And I have only seen ONE person so far accomplish using this buff properly, minus myself, Beguile from Unrest. Best [Removed for Content] Illu around. My resistance debuffs + hate gain reduc on him would easily boost his DPS well over 2,200 constantly. (Sometimes even breaking 3k.) *salute* That's he diference from a Coercer and an Illu right there. We are awesome utilities with decent DPS, they are DPS gods... period. </p>

[Controlor]

<cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Anyone have any idea what the numbers whould be with all those AA you can give to a Coercers regen in the EoF-tree ?</p><p>Do Illus get that many aswell ? </p></blockquote>For this you have more pr regen aa's then we do (Iam an illy). We both have the ability to beef our group pr regen buff up (the permenant buff that is). The only other pr regen aa we have increases the duration of Savante 5 seconds / point. could be up to 55 second duration (i personally have it 45 to match the boost of 45 second momentary sentiment cast em together less pr for higher nuking is good combo same duration). To the poster above. Was always under the impression Coercer > illy on dps (If coercer charms a mob). and just slightly better w/o a charmed mob. What is the self only pr regen you have? Illy's is a convert 98 hp to 61 pr (altho i dont have max ministration and its adept 3) i think at master 1 max ministration its 90 hp 70 pr or something like that every 4 seconds. (but that is self only). When comparing spells you really should compare the spells to the compliments. Group pr regen we have equal negate those. Mana cloak same negate those. Your Channel is supposed to be complimented by Savante. Your Gorging thought is complimented by our devitalizing gaxe. So you have that one extra pr regen over us. Basically you have more pr regen spells then we do. Specially instant pr. As anotehr poster stated Illy can help with pr over a long period over you. But if you need pr now Coercer > illy. Altho a 45 second savante that is able to be used 2 times against a named fight in a raid (because length of time takes to kill) is extreamly useful. Usually start out using it on a named so its up again when mob is about 20% hp or so.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>Yes, Illu's specialty power management is definately useful for groups of folks that are burning through their power fast, rather than those that have "I need power asap" moments.</p><p>Just one more thing that reinforces the Coercer = MT group and Illusionist = Caster/DPS group situation.</p><p>As for DPS... Coercers main form of DPS (like 80-90% of our dps) comes from spells that only do damage when the mob lands a hit. Which means our damage goes down the better the MT is at staying alive, and the weaker the mobs get. Only against fast hitting, spell and melee combo, high level mobs do we end up doing our full potential.</p><p>Charm is all well and good... but it's very unreliable, and not good for any tough zone or unusable in raids. And just like the Personae, it takes up 3 slots, ugh.</p><p> As for the +DPS vs -Aggro... I only ever put the -Aggro on those folks that are known for pulling too much aggro when doing their thing. So it really depends on the raid... usually I ask the MT "so who in this raid will normally pull too much aggro, barring life/mana burn".</p><p>For those folks, the I've watched as they did the same thing from fight to fight.. and not pull aggro with my buff on them, but pull aggro when it's not there. Even with Troub deaggro.</p><p>I have been playing this game since it came out, and I remember LU13.. but I can honestly say I don't remember a post or a mention about 50% caps on Hate. As far as I've heard from the Devs, they are refusing to give us solid info about Hate management because it is the one last bastion of unknown in this game and it's what allows us to have skill, instead of just number crunching.</p><p>It's just like the Dirge + Coercer hate gain issue... and I've seen noticeable differences when my hate gain wasn't put on (like the MT losing aggro and we wipe type issue). So I have this feeling it's a little over 50% anyways.</p><p> I do remember form LU13 that we can debuff a mob to -50% resists.. meaning we can do double damage at max. That was stated for sure.. I even think it still in their update notes if you are willing to sift through that forum.</p>

[Wrapye]

Another point, when comparing the two subclasses' mana regen, is in EoF raid fights were there the mob is actively mana draining.  Using less mana there doesn't help as much as being to supply mana at a good rate and be able to ward against mana drain.  If it is a very long fight, I will keep my personal power pool as high as I can and use channel a couple times (have the recast down to 9 min. 18 seconds).

[ZUES]

<p>HURRY UP! Turn it to the FX channel!</p><p>Alien -vs- Predator is on!</p><p>/sarcasm off</p>