Mezing on raids

[norberg]

This will probably result in a few "big-No-No" posts but I'd love to see some constructive discussion on this. Obviously, if your MT/healers are up to it why bother mezing, just pull and burn. But if your guild is not uber outkitted yet some encounters can hurt. Holding of mob dmg for 15 seconds is alot of less dps during pull phase. The big NO-NO is that mez will 1) stop AoE taunts from landing and 2) sometimes make the positioning screw up once mez breaks as mobs can come behind MT. If you wait to long then AoE DoT's will have landed on the encounter making mez break anyway. Ideally I've found a good coordination with MT will let you have mobs be pulled, and mez land just after tank/mobs are in position and first AoE taunt has landed. By the time mez breaks mobs are debuffed and first mob is almost dead making dealing with the dmg spikes easy.Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[jane]

<DIV>from my few tries of mezzing.. always go at top of the hate list whenever i try to mez a raid mob... debuff for 15 sec. rez chanter and then start over <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[norberg]

if you hit it before AoE taunt lands yes...depends alot on your tank

[Tanatus]

<P>Dude mezing on raid is best way to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]up agro control - 1 mez usualy = 1 dead coercer. Learn to use other tools that not [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up agro control - like AOE Daze, PBAE Stun, AOE Stun, Interupt</P> <P>More over if you mez on multi encounter pull you are effectively [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing up your guild DPS. With right MT group set up then only thing that <U><EM>might</EM></U> pull agro from MT on pull is good crit on Decapinate or Fusion or premature used Despatch</P> <P>Usually raid buffed tank can litterally ignore damage from none named mobs except for initial damage spike that all mobs in same time execute thier best DPS attack .... and here you come with AOE stun follow up with AOE Daze and follow up with stifle on named and by this time stun immunity should down and you use your PBAE stun-nuke</P>

[feronia28]

Aye. Don't be so quick to hit the mez key as we have a nice variety of other CC. Mezzing can be used, however it's very situational based on encounters, raid, ect.

[Korrupt-W]

<DIV>Mezzing could be usefull for helping out with the upfront damage of mobs in say Lyceum entrance if your not well geared.  Just mezz the heroics till an epic is down or something.</DIV>

[norberg]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<P>Dude mezing on raid is best way to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]up agro control - 1 mez usualy = 1 dead coercer. Learn to use other tools that not [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up agro control - like AOE Daze, PBAE Stun, AOE Stun, Interupt</P><P>More over if you mez on multi encounter pull you are effectively [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing up your guild DPS. With right MT group set up then only thing that <U><EM>might</EM></U> pull agro from MT on pull is good crit on Decapinate or Fusion or premature used Despatch</P><P>Usually raid buffed tank can litterally ignore damage from none named mobs except for initial damage spike that all mobs in same time execute thier best DPS attack .... and here you come with AOE stun follow up with AOE Daze and follow up with stifle on named and by this time stun immunity should down and you use your PBAE stun-nuke</P><hr></blockquote>Don't be so categorical. I did say on my post that the question was regarding hard epic encounters (relative to your raid capability) were holding off dmg is key. If MT group is up for the dmg there is obviously no need to mez cause it ruins raid dps, you don't have to be a genius to understand that.[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] makes you think that because I ask a specific question about a epic-usable spell means I don't know how to use other tools...Maybe I should mention that if you get killed because you mez one add you still have something to learn? Its not an easy art but if you use it right you DON'T get aggro, you DON'T mess up agro control and you get an efficient 15 secs remove of dmg using one spell instead of the about 8-10 secs you get from chain casting your stuns.So I am interested to hear from those who have learned to use this ability (mez) on raids...

[Outerspace]

Stuns are better because taunts land and you can do DPS to stunned mobs whereas you can't on mezzed mobs.I agree with Tanatus <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[greenmantle]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How about less  of the i am uber leet , we dont heal our tanks cause we dont need to and a little more of what is helpful for raiders from more average situations.</P> <P>I mez = dead coercer um the problem is?? Considering the number of deaths raiding and that there is no real penalty are there cases you would sac a coercer to break up a named group for a while , after all one death beats the crap out of 24. Poor old rogues gets to crap shoot pull and the chance of being stomped all over doesnt come up. </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For guilds that only raid 3-4 days and dont always have the main tanks available and dont have every tactic down pat are things like mezing a mob that peels of after a healer that tosses one early a dumb idea or seeing we never have enough healers perhaps a good idea.  Or places like the blobs in the lab that breed , i dont remember the names, would tying those down while burning down the name would make life easier. </P> <P>I dont raid as yet on my coercer , but when i do i want to be able to make intelligent suggestions and answers to the raid leaders and telling them but if i mezz i will die would just double them up with laughter. The stun daze stifle stun rotation sounds good but think average raiders , 3 and a 1/2 group few pick ups would there be places you would think mez might mean a win not a loss or is it always a dumb idea?</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Dude mez litterally wipe agro, more over then mob mezed IT IS <U><STRONG>IMMUNE</STRONG></U> to any AOE ... yep including AOE taunt. As I said before I can reapet again - the only danger on pull specially for low HP low Mit low avoidance tank is initial spike damage and you instead of learn from person who know his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lol and playing coercer since day 1 trying to agrue. Casting head to head Counfoundment and Daze - negate most damage from first 3-5 second of combat for epics and 13 seconds for heroics. Bear in mind with right timed Sonic you can extend that for heroic mobs for 5 more seconds and 18 second is MORE then enouth for any guild perform AOE killing heroics. Look once you negated first damage spike you soften damage even more with stifling named 5 second stifle is hell a lot time for healers to heal up you MT, becuase see most of damage that tank take comes not from trash but from named.</P> <P>My guild after many spliting do very casual raiding nowdays and even then I yet to see any of our tanks drop mit below 6.1K and HP below 10800 and those stats more then sufficient with 5 -6 healers to do whole Labs easy</P>

[Timzil]

Mez does not wipe agro.

[feronia28]

It used to be that (before LU 25/26?) a chanter could thow up an AE mez on incomming and survive because a fighter's AE taunts still used to hit the mezed mobs. Now, however, AE taunts don't. Mez is not an aggro wipe.

[Vydian]

<div></div>If you aren't working with the MT and the raid with mezzes then you are a jacked up fool. While it's bad idea to mez on the pull, its EXCELLENT after the tank gets his AOE taunt off and has control. Once the raid is focused on one mob, you can knock the others out of the fight for 13.3 seconds individually. THAT IS HUGE. Yeah, they become immune for 2 minutes, but so what? If the fight lasts that long, then reapply mez as needed. Mez does NOT wipe agro and a single taunt is more than enough to overcome any agro associated with a mez. If you are in such a big badass guild that your AOE can burn through epics like butter without pulling agro, then go for it and don't worry about crowd control. But I bet, by and large, this isn't the case. And even if you DO have all that firepower, what's so wrong about waiting 13 seconds out of every 2 minutes to help mitigate incoming damage?It's high time some people learned that just because something isn't ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for success does not mean it's useless. Too many people just don't get it and are worried about their parse spot as opposed to whats good for the raid...One more thing with regards to stun vs mez. You can have both you know. Stun the mob being focused on while you work mezzes on the adds, not too hard (though it might cost you your precious parse spot if thats your thing...)<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vydian on <span class=date_text>10-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:36 PM</span>

[greenmantle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote: <P>My guild after many spliting do very casual raiding nowdays and even then I yet to see any of our tanks drop mit below 6.1K and HP below 10800 and those stats more then sufficient with 5 -6 healers to do whole Labs easy</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Yes and as i said we sometimes have a less than perfect turn out , last raid we had 5 healers and a MT with 5.5 mit.</P> <P>I want to learn what can be done to get the max from what arrives for a raid not what can be done coasting along because the tank is invunerable.</P> <P>Thanks to those that made intelligent comments.</P>

[Kyriel]

<DIV>Honestly. It depends. Depends on your tank, your guilds "uberness?", the zone/mob(s). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you throw an AE mez out.. then tell ur guild your doing so, and they should be aware of when it's wearing off and your tank should throw out his AE taunts when its done. (vent/teamspeak is a wonderful thing)(you can also make text macros) And your mages/dps shouldnt be AEing them if you're AE mezzing anyway. Unless they wanna die. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>Well Said btw: <HR> Vydian wrote:<BR> If you aren't working with the MT and the raid with mezzes then you are a jacked up fool. While it's bad idea to mez on the pull, <STRONG><U>its EXCELLENT after the tank gets his AOE taunt off and has control.</U></STRONG> Once the raid is focused on one mob, you can knock the others out of the fight for 13.3 seconds individually. THAT IS HUGE. Yeah, they become immune for 2 minutes, but so what? If the fight lasts that long, then reapply mez as needed. Mez does NOT wipe agro and a single taunt is more than enough to overcome any agro associated with a mez. If you are in such a big badass guild that your AOE can burn through epics like butter without pulling agro, then go for it and don't worry about crowd control. But I bet, by and large, this isn't the case. And even if you DO have all that firepower, what's so wrong about waiting 13 seconds out of every 2 minutes to help mitigate incoming damage?<BR><BR>It's high time some people learned that just because something isn't ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for success does not mean it's useless. Too many people just don't get it and are worried about their parse spot as opposed to whats good for the raid...<BR><BR>One more thing with regards to stun vs mez. You can have both you know. Stun the mob being focused on while you work mezzes on the adds, not too hard (though it might cost you your precious parse spot if thats your thing...)<BR> <P>Message Edited by Vydian on <SPAN class=date_text>10-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:36 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by Zemfira on <span class=date_text>10-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:18 PM</span>

[Tanatus]

<P>Vidian I haven't seen normal raiding guild that focused on single mob that whole encounter can be attacked already for a while...  Look if you take as a baseline 8-10K DPS on Lab trash low end guild by mezing mob you effectively KILLING your tank because - a) that mean you guild DPS ALREADY below 8K and you have trouble of killing group encounter and on top of it you EXTEND duration of combat by granting immunity to any damage 1 or more mobs with your mez. Mez on raid serve 1 purpose protect mob against your guild ... that all. </P> <P>b) you draining mana from your healers and DPS instead of draining mana from the mobs ... why? because longer duration of combat requied more power. Main victims of your mezing err I mean raid-wide mana suckage of couse are wizards and warlocks </P> <P>And just FYI .... Mez DO wipe agro on raid not directly of course.... If mob did not took any damage but just ate 1 AOE taunt then been mezed guess who gain more agro? Please understand simple thing - while mob under mez its IMMUNE to taunts so ALL taunts that tank land AFTER mez went in been guess what? - right WASTED. Now trivia ... what tanks CA eat most power .... found answer? gooood now consider what you just done before? - ya right you just suck dry tank power</P> <P>I am not agrueing that coercer can and should mitingation damage what I am agruing it that coercer protect tank not mob with his spells and you have plently spells that do that.... AOE Stun, AOE Daze, PBAE Stun, Single Target Stun, Single Target Stifle and Interupt</P> <P> </P>

[Vydian]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div></div> <p>Vidian I haven't seen normal raiding guild that focused on single mob that whole encounter can be attacked already for a while...  Look if you take as a baseline 8-10K DPS on Lab trash low end guild by mezing mob you effectively KILLING your tank because - a) that mean you guild DPS ALREADY below 8K and you have trouble of killing group encounter and on top of it you EXTEND duration of combat by granting immunity to any damage 1 or more mobs with your mez. Mez on raid serve 1 purpose protect mob against your guild ... that all. </p> <p>b) you draining mana from your healers and DPS instead of draining mana from the mobs ... why? because longer duration of combat requied more power. Main victims of your mezing err I mean raid-wide mana suckage of couse are wizards and warlocks </p> <p>And just FYI .... Mez DO wipe agro on raid not directly of course.... If mob did not took any damage but just ate 1 AOE taunt then been mezed guess who gain more agro? Please understand simple thing - while mob under mez its IMMUNE to taunts so ALL taunts that tank land AFTER mez went in been guess what? - right WASTED. Now trivia ... what tanks CA eat most power .... found answer? gooood now consider what you just done before? - ya right you just suck dry tank power</p> <p>I am not agrueing that coercer can and should mitingation damage what I am agruing it that coercer protect tank not mob with his spells and you have plently spells that do that.... AOE Stun, AOE Daze, PBAE Stun, Single Target Stun, Single Target Stifle and Interupt</p> <hr></blockquote>See, this is where the concept of being "flexible" comes in. I already said in my previous post that if you have enough DPS to cut through mobs like butter, then don't worry about it. But right now, my guild is missing (admittedly) a few things. We have NO warlocks (which I sorely wish we had) and have only 1 wizard who is taking a break from EQ right now. Tanatus, you are ALWAYS basing your opinions on the perfect group/raid setup and I'm here to tell you that isn't the case for everyone. Maybe you get to roll with 6 locks/wizzies on a raid, but I don't have that luxury right now. So I do what I can to help the raid. I mezz adds and stun the main mob on the tank. I have NEVER pulled agro from mez, not once. And by the way,  mez does NOT make them immune to ALL taunts, only the AOE taunt(unless it is directly targetted). You really need to learn the mez mechanics. And it is very simple to test: find a tank, go out and mez something and have him do a single target taunt. Works just fine.Throwing a mez on an add where you don't have lots of AOE damage is a big help to the healers, they save mana cause there is less damage coming in. Yes, I can see the point where if the mobs are outright dead fast enough, then there isn't as much time to beat on the tank which will also save healer power. But until that time comes for my guild, I'm using every tool I have.People have to stop thinking in absolutes, you rolled the wrong class if you have it in your head that the exact same thing you always do will work for every encounter, group makup, raid force you are a part of. CC in any game and in any form has always been about adapting to the situation. Sometimes it's a waste, sometimes it makes things go easier, sometimes it's required. A good CCer is ready for all of these. Anybody can stand back and fire all the dps they have, that's easy (baring agro issues).</div><p>Message Edited by Vydian on <span class=date_text>10-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[Musikv]

<DIV>If you die because you mez.... Someone isn't paying attention or you didn't say anything.   When a mob is mezzed... it is not immune to taunt.. if you target the mezzed mob and AE taunt it will taunt the mob and anything  in its encounter. This is what you have a MA for, so people don't start hitting the mob if you tank needs to switch targets.  Say something in raid or your voice chat that you mezzed the mob so people know....  If you have a second tank... he can throw a taunt or two on.. or even the MT can.  There is a time and place or it.... your stuns, dazes, and stifles are an important tool, but mez can save the raid, too.  Mezzing mobs in encounters really is pointless, though.  So, try and stay away from that.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<P>Give me a break ... prefect raiding force ...</P> <P>As I said LOW end raiding guild have 8-10K DPS in Lab, high end? - well I guess 20+K DPS. Yes there are several reason why guild might suffer badly in DPS but absence of warlocks ... is not the reason. Brigands and Bards - that what make or brake your DPS on raid. There are so many classes in EQ2 that can be consider as a DPS ... heck even furies (priest class) with right set up easy clocking 600-800DPS, is zerkers not braking mark 1.3K DPS on groups they probably afk or sleeping same goes for swashes and rangers</P> <P>Basically I guess what I am trying to say if you think you need mez on raid, I think your guild not yet ready for reading</P>

[Vydian]

God I'm glad I'm not on your server. You can keep your 5 million DPS guild ace, but you leave mine alone. I've had it with your elitist trash attitude.<div></div>

[noobslayer]

<DIV>The only time I have found mezz to be useful in a raid is if for some strange reason the coercer is pulling (not a good idea) or if a mob resists the tanks initial taunt and heads to the dps/healers.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with the 2nd is that no taunts not directed at the mob will land while it is mezzed. Another problem is that certain dumbfire pets and a select few other AE style abilites will ignore the no AE effect of the mezz and will break it with the hate on the coercer...dead coercer.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is viable to use mezz in this manner, but only long enough for a plate class to grab the aggro until the MT can get it under control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mezz for the most part has no place in a raid as things currently stand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless planned as a strat such as in boss encounters in nizara, it has little place in heroic in even a decent group past stopping unexpected encounters such as an unseen roamer, and in a good group it doesn't even have a place there.  All your going to end up doing is lowering your groups dps.  STUN dont mezz.  You have enough of them and Coercers are the strongest stunning class in the game.  This is where most Coercers go wrong.  We won't even talk about the idiots who play illusionists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In small groups it does have a place, taking out one target at a time is very usefull in duo's and trio's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing with mezz is a godsend and allows you to take out higher leveled named encounters, which only a wizzy can really compete with us on and not always even then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But of course anyone who has played a coercer for any length knows all this.</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I've mezed on some raids. Epic creatures too (not just Lyceum). It was a planned thing, and no one died or any crap like that because all it took was a smidge of coordination.I don't mez now though, because I don't need to. At most I'm tossing in stuns, etc, but even those aren't really that necessary.The reason it was different back then was because KoS raids were designed around having AA's and KoS dropped equipment.Most of us in the beginning still had mostly mastercrafted gear, or some legendary drops, and maybe a dozen AA's to our name. It's not even about the Raid DPS... it's about the MT surviving the hits, and if he can't take all the mobs beating on him at once, then we needed to do something about it.Mez was there as a crutch when we weren't fully geared. We could beat the encounters because we used it. Now we don't need it, and that's fine. But I'm not about to shout down on anyone that still wants to use it... because it WAS useful in the appropriate situation. Maybe they are still in that situation... there's a lot of guilds that are just now catching up to T7 raiding.<div></div>

[Aoi]

<DIV>"Mez was there as a crutch when we weren't fully geared. We could beat the encounters because we used it. Now we don't need it, and that's fine. But I'm not about to shout down on anyone that still wants to use it... because it WAS useful in the appropriate situation. Maybe they are still in that situation... there's a lot of guilds that are just now catching up to T7 raiding."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>QFT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Several posters on these forums would be well served by simply understanding that not every guild has the same class makeup, skill level, and gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not that I don't like hearing how much "your tank's gear sucks if you have to do that" or "your raid DPS must suck..." etc. etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You would think those posters would realize that people asking for advice on these forums usually aren't going to benefit much from a strategy that assumes the raid, gear, and skill is all perfect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV>

[norberg]

<blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:Mez was there as a crutch when we weren't fully geared. We could beat the encounters because we used it. Now we don't need it, and that's fine. </blockquote>Exactly, and some guilds are still not fully geared. And there are new raid zones around the corner with EoF that will be hard to beat the first few times. I think the bottom line is that Yes, using Mez with good coordination with your tank can take off mob dmg for ~15 secs without loosing aggro IN ADDITION to the stuns/stifles/dazes....If dmg is an issue its stupid not to use this ability. If its not an issue dont use it.