Are you an offensive or defensive coercer?

[Roriondesexiest]

<DIV>Just wondering what everyone considered themselves while raiding?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From some chat in the nektulos.coercer and for some reason some PM's I have gotten from friends late just curious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would consider myself on a Raid to be in a very defensive mode.  I have the Wis and Sta AA's for Crit healing and non-fighter group de-hate.  I have all my mana-regen spells at M1 and a few of my offensive spells at M1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a raid I am usually in the MT or MA group so I am not getting any offensive buffs only defensive ones.  I am constantly watching the raid's power for throwing out mana flow or timing my gorging thoughts for extra power for my group.  I throw out stifles and stuns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do dps by attempting to keep all my reactives running and dots going.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In raids I tend to do around 200 DPS and am perfectly fine with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny thing is when grouping I would consider myself the exact opposite, I always want to have the biggest nastiest caster pet for out dps'ing the rest of the group....</DIV>

[Venzule]

<P>Hmmmm...</P> <P> </P> <P>Id say Defensive.  I love going on raids or group killing in Varsoon or other.   Its takes people in the group about 6 kills to get used to "Hey, ive never fought with a mezzer, I should stop AOEing" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>I keep the MT Hasted.</P> <P>I keep the group power regened.</P> <P>I keep the reactives going on the MT's target.</P> <P>I keep the power drains going on caster mobs transfering their power to the group.</P> <P>Chain Stun after my initial burst of reactive damage.</P> <P>AOE Mez</P> <P>Single Target Mez.</P> <P> </P> <P>I love my Coercer, its such a busy class.   I love when a fight ends and I say  "Behind us guys"  and the group turns around only to see 3 mobs sitting there mezzed, and they say "When did those sneak up on us??"  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Venzule on <span class=date_text>09-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:46 AM</span>

[Aoi]

<P>Yeah with all this talk on the boards lately about parsing max DPS and going AGI/INT on the AA lines, I think being a defensive Coercer is somewhat a lost art.</P> <P>I personally have mostly fabled gear and most of my T7 spells mastered, and still don't break 400 DPS on raids consistently (I also am all STA/WIS).  And I am honestly pretty happy with that.</P> <P>I really like playing support classes, and did not choose Coercer to be a DPSer.  That is not to say we can't be a DPS class with the right build, just my personal choice.</P> <P>Of course, that all changes in Nizara <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Coercers are gods in that zone.</P> <P>Cyene</P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Outside of raid?  Offense only</DIV> <DIV>Within raid? Hibrid aka MT group coercer but normally clocking around 700-900DPS (would be around 1100 if I drop STA and switch onto AGI). On raid if anything charmable? - the only buff from me is hate (well toss here crack) if I have fury then I can drop my int/agi buff to give out brigand amends. </DIV>

[Roriondesexiest]

<blockquote><hr>Aoine wrote:<div></div> <p>Yeah with all this talk on the boards lately about parsing max DPS and going AGI/INT on the AA lines, I think being a defensive Coercer is somewhat a lost art.</p> <p>I personally have mostly fabled gear and most of my T7 spells mastered, and still don't break 400 DPS on raids consistently (I also am all STA/WIS).  And I am honestly pretty happy with that.</p> <p>I really like playing support classes, and did not choose Coercer to be a DPSer.  That is not to say we can't be a DPS class with the right build, just my personal choice.</p> <p>Of course, that all changes in Nizara <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Coercers are gods in that zone.</p> <p>Cyene</p><hr></blockquote>Not to derail my own thread too much but how do you mean in Nizara?  those things are so freakin tall I can' see what numbers they are posting to tell whether or not they are worth keeping as a pet...  I usually mez the encounter, charm 1 for the fight then have the group kill it after the rest are dead...<div></div>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dalessit wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR> <P>Yeah with all this talk on the boards lately about parsing max DPS and going AGI/INT on the AA lines, I think being a defensive Coercer is somewhat a lost art.</P> <P>I personally have mostly fabled gear and most of my T7 spells mastered, and still don't break 400 DPS on raids consistently (I also am all STA/WIS).  And I am honestly pretty happy with that.</P> <P>I really like playing support classes, and did not choose Coercer to be a DPSer.  That is not to say we can't be a DPS class with the right build, just my personal choice.</P> <P>Of course, that all changes in Nizara <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Coercers are gods in that zone.</P> <P>Cyene</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not to derail my own thread too much but how do you mean in Nizara?  those things are so freakin tall I can' see what numbers they are posting to tell whether or not they are worth keeping as a pet...  I usually mez the encounter, charm 1 for the fight then have the group kill it after the rest are dead...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, not to further derail, but since I got your permission.... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>You want to get a pet that does the Flam Claw attack.  Its a weird type of fast ticking DoT attack that usually does something like this with M1 Domination (these numbers are rounded btwe, it varies of course):</P> <P>200dmg</P> <P>500dmg</P> <P>800dmg</P> <P>1k dmg</P> <P>2k dmg</P> <P>5k dmg</P> <P>...and yes, thats all one attack...it basically does the first 5 attacks all at once, then the last big attack a few seconds later.  I've parsed charmed pets well over 2kdps on shorter fights because of this special attack.</P> <P>Now, the downside....if he breaks and decides to flame claw you immediately...you are pretty much dead unless one misses.</P> <P>The mobs whos first name end with an "ishi" usually will have this attach, and the "ishi" Praetor is bay far ne of the meanest.  Also, there are dirges to charm in there that give a group buff AND do flame claw, which about awesome imho.</P> <P>But overall we are so powerful in tehre because of our control spells.  if the MT goes down to one of those nasty attacks, your charmed pet should be able to finish the mob, then back off while you mes the rest and res the tank.</P> <P>I could go one forever, but I am about to leave work...suffice to say I lvoe that zone as a Coercer...one of the few real single group challenges left in the game (aside from the [Removed for Content] LD bug!!).</P> <P>Cyene</P>

[Nolomite]

<P>I don't raid, but I can state that in a group of 4 or more I'm a defensive coercer, and soloing or duoing I'm as offensive as I can be (especially my language). It's pretty common to join a pickup group and be greeted with 'cool, we've got crowd control!' and it doesn't take much to see what's expected of me. If the only spell I ever used during these groups was group mez, I don't think anyone would notice or care. Naturally I try to dazzle them with the reactive damages and protect them with the hate buffs, but they don't seem to see that I'm doing a lot of management along the way. That doesn't bother me, but it does amuse me. When I group with friends they absolutely understand that once the first mob gets pulled, I'm calling the shots.</P> <P>Solo or duo, I snag a pet and give everything I've got into ripping the mobs apart.</P>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>dalessit wrote:<div>Just wondering what everyone considered themselves while raiding?</div> <div> </div> <div>From some chat in the nektulos.coercer and for some reason some PM's I have gotten from friends late just curious.</div> <div> </div> <div>I would consider myself on a Raid to be in a very defensive mode.  I have the Wis and Sta AA's for Crit healing and non-fighter group de-hate.  I have all my mana-regen spells at M1 and a few of my offensive spells at M1.</div> <div> </div> <div>In a raid I am usually in the MT or MA group so I am not getting any offensive buffs only defensive ones.  I am constantly watching the raid's power for throwing out mana flow or timing my gorging thoughts for extra power for my group.  I throw out stifles and stuns.</div> <div> </div> <div>I do dps by attempting to keep all my reactives running and dots going.</div> <div> </div> <div>In raids I tend to do around 200 DPS and am perfectly fine with that.</div> <div> </div> <div>Funny thing is when grouping I would consider myself the exact opposite, I always want to have the biggest nastiest caster pet for out dps'ing the rest of the group....</div><hr></blockquote>I do everything you mentioned in raid, but I also pull ~600-800dps on raids with AA setup 4-4-8-5 WIS 4-4-4-8-1 INT It allows the flexibility of being able to do +30% dmg / +12% (I think thats the max #) crits, while still keeping your offhand, and allowing you to cycle through spells like a normal coercer.  I was max agility for a while, I didn't appreciate the lack of an offhand item (and its stats).  I also do about the same damage as I did with agility with just the +13crits (around 400-550dps).  My only proc item its Wand of the tempest, and it only procs regen, not damage.  With synergism and 1-3 proc items I do around 750-800dps, and around 1100dps++ in AE fights.  These are raids only, which is about all I play nowadays.  The only difference to you is that you have partial stamina line.  The deaggro is pretty much garbage considering you will be with scouts (who don't have aggro issues), not mages, and in the MT group there are no aggro issues at all.  If you are in the MT group I would recommend STA/WIS/INT lines like: STA 4-4-8 -----max heal crit and some extra hp WIS-4-4-8 ---- +801 to all resists in addition to +4wis for negligable resists INT 4-4-4-6 - +int, barrier proc (uninterruptable), and +approx 10% crit Obviously if you sacrifice the stamina line you can get +subjugation from wis and +30% damage from INT, but its your call, and if you are an MT coercer, heal crit might be better for you (although its not a necessity, bards buff +crits and they are better suited for mt than us). Sorry if I droned on, I just used to be exactly like now, except now I do everyone of those things PLUS moderate dps. <div></div>

[Dorein]

<div></div>Heh I guess I've become a slacker, I group with my raid tank or our offtank all the time, and I don't think there's a zone we don't go into where we can pull the room, aoe everything, and mass murder. Walk around with a healer or so and that's how we make vaults or something slightly exciting... shoot we killed the last guy the other night in like 30sec. Nizara is about the only place I mez much ne more or in HoF if something bad is about to happen.Currently specc'dWis 4/4/8Int 4/8/4/8/1Str 1Was specc'd down the Agi line for a bit, and you do a lil more damage that way, but the problem is in raiding you run out of power so fast that you are causing a slight hinderance to the MT group with channel. I can still parse 6-700 this way and last through the fight, and on large named the last portion of the fight I'm throwing out 4-5k crits on Sonic with Ad3 which is nice. Plus I get to beat things with my big stick!Esci70 Coercer LDL VigilanceRaerosk70 Berserker LDL Vigilance<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dorein on <span class=date_text>09-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 AM</span>

[Andu]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:I do everything you mentioned in raid, but I also pull ~600-800dps on raids with AA setup <div></div><hr></blockquote>This is what I think most should be aiming for, although 500 is probably more realistic if you have crit heals, 600 - 800 zonewide is going some. There is not really such a thing as an offensive and defensive Coercer. Don't hide behind the fact you are "defensive" as an excuse for low damage. The really good coercers can do all the stuff you outlined as defensive AND pull 450+ DPS as a minimum, a lot more in zones like Lycaeum. Tanatus' figures seem like the area you should get if you are genuinely offensive. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class=date_text>09-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

[Lleinen]

<P>I like to consider myself having the best of both worlds...both defensive when needed and offensive most the time.</P> <P>AGI 4-4<BR>STA 4-4-8<BR>INT 4-4-4-5-1</P> <P>Have capped out INT and as much procing gear I could get my hands on...so when I try I avg 800dps while keeping<BR>MT group full on mana</P>

[norberg]

I like the way Coercers can play different styles so I have tried to make it as flexible as possible. I have AA Agi down to perpetuality and maxed out group deaggro+critical heal. This way I can go defensive on very hard raid mobs, using stuns/stifles when I see the MT go towards red and thus help out the healers keeping her (yes, female MT in our guild <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) alive. If mobs have hard AoE I obviously have maxed out resistances. But for clearing our way down throught the trash I switch to proc gear and perpetuality will assure that they fire often keeping my dps up there.I like the Agi line for doing instances also, One AoE mez triggers most of the casting time reducers and you then have an easy job single mezing, debuffing and applying procs in no time.In the end its all about how you want to play, there's no best way.RaukhurThe Dark VengeanceSplitpaw

[Cersiana]

<P>Been a while since I came to these parts of the forums =p I was a nub back then **giggles**</P> <P>Defensive, I can still put out anywhere from 600 - upper 800's with no spell procs and not useing chronosiphoning. I've lacking only a few master spells tho mosly the lower dots. </P>

[Roriondesexiest]

<P>I suppose I should have added I only regularly raid DT and Labs, I see everyone posting huge numbers from Lyceum.  </P> <P>Fighting Matron the other night I was just under 400 (I think, will go back and look at parse) there were 3 coercers on that raid and the highest one was at 425 or so... and I was in a group where I was getting almost 0 offensive buffs</P> <P>Dunno, I have raided with at least 5 different coercers and I parse fairly close to every one of them, some higher, some lower but none ,more than a few points.</P> <P>I might look into switching out Wis for something else though.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by dalessit on <span class=date_text>10-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:20 AM</span>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>dalessit wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>I suppose I should have added I only regularly raid DT and Labs, I see everyone posting huge numbers from Lyceum.  </p> <p>Fighting Matron the other night I was just under 400 (I think, will go back and look at parse) there were 3 coercers on that raid and the highest one was at 425 or so... and I was in a group where I was getting almost 0 offensive buffs</p> <p>Dunno, I have raided with at least 5 different coercers and I parse fairly close to every one of them, some higher, some lower but none ,more than a few points.</p> <p>I might look into switching out Wis for something else though.</p> <p>Message Edited by dalessit on <span class="date_text">10-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Your guild only raids DT and labs, but you try matron?  I'm confused My parses were not from Lyceum, every guild can get 20-25k dps in there.  My dps vs solo mobs is around 500-800 most of the times.<div></div>

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dalessit wrote:<BR> <P>I suppose I should have added I only regularly raid DT and Labs, I see everyone posting huge numbers from Lyceum.  </P> <P>Fighting Matron the other night I was just under 400 (I think, will go back and look at parse) there were 3 coercers on that raid and the highest one was at 425 or so... and I was in a group where I was getting almost 0 offensive buffs</P> <P>Dunno, I have raided with at least 5 different coercers and I parse fairly close to every one of them, some higher, some lower but none ,more than a few points.</P> <P>I might look into switching out Wis for something else though.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by dalessit on <SPAN class=date_text>10-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:20 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your guild only raids DT and labs, but you try matron?  I'm confused<BR><BR>My parses were not from Lyceum, every guild can get 20-25k dps in there.  My dps vs solo mobs is around 500-800 most of the times.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL, I am a raid floozy, raid with many different guilds.<BR>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Break time ppl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Coercer DPS on raid 101 ....</DIV> <DIV>Here we go let start from major contributor and go down to minor</DIV> <DIV>a) your raid MUST have brigand in order for ANY caster sustein more or less reasonable DPS (we are talking about 700+ per DPS person)</DIV> <DIV>b) Correct group set up - add 1 bard to your group and you immideatly get +7.5% boost from just Dont Kill the Messanger, add troubadur and here is come another 200DPS or so from proc. There is no excuse for anyone not have at least 2% crit from Mark, 4% crit from portion, 12% crits from AA and good to have 7.5% from bard (total 25.5%)</DIV> <DIV>c) Gear, gear, gear - you MUST have a lot procs on your gear - on average every single proc item add solid 50DPS to score (and as I said before troubadur +200 at least) - got 3 pieces that proc? = 150DPS, got 4-5 pieces = 200-250DPS More over maxium benifit from proc gear you get then you go all way down to AGI. With Perpentuality all your gear will proc like crazy.... On countary with Dymanism you proc a lot less if you get AGI like </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So 3 things above is MAJOR contribution of your DPS just with right group set up, enouth brigands, correct AA choise and correct gear any coercer should do 500DPS JUST FROM IT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having 100% masters help but effect not as much visible, Type of mob you fighting? - in general depend how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty tank you have - the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty tank you have the better DPS you'll get, the more HP mob have (aka duration of fight) the higher on ladder of DPS you will be sitting with your coercer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ppl then you talk about DPS many often fogot that lion share of coercer DPS comes not from coercer himself but from suppot classes who provide right buff/de-buffs for raid (speaking about brigands, bards, illusionist, inquisitors)</DIV>

[Anachronomicon]

I tend to agree with Tanatus on the above points save one thing.Crit %.You say that with crits all lined up you can get 25.5% crit chance.What is a crit anyway? A crit is +15% damage on whatever you were normally going to do.So, how much is that actually adding to your DPS? 3.825% folks.If you are doing 600-800 dps... you're going to see a whopping 23 extra DPS at low end, 30.6 at high.WOW! That's uber, right?Don't waste your time on Crit chance unless you just have no other place to spend those points. I am still playing with the perfect setup, but I just wanted to bring that issue to light. Currently I was experimenting with the str aa's, but will probably return to mostly Agi. I like to keep daydream for nizara, and the +800 resist on dream barrier is nice, but not always necessary. I parse on average 500-750, I'm missing a few nice pieces of proc gear. Ask Neural Overload if you want to know how to *really* DPS.Heal crit is POS too. on a long fight a healer with over 30% heal crit will heal perhaps an extra 8-10k... you say wow, that's a lot, but when you're healing for 300k total, it's paltry. Don't buy into the hype, just say no to crits.Senelin Venelitus70 Froglok Coercer - EverfrostKindred

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Crits not exactly work in way you discribed...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is not uncommon for my coercer to see Sonic hit for 4+K per mob on crit - which is near +100% to average of M1 Sonic. Toss here DOTs I have commonly Breakdown tic for over 400.</DIV> <DIV>Per se what crits do? they double damage in "insert here %"..... Problem is that spells have HUGE variation between min and max - if you crit on min spell damage - you might see number that not even exceed max possible number for spell, but if you crit on max roll.... here is BIG number... Otherwise how you think wizards score over 23K damage per mob with Fusion crits (M1 itself have max damage 11K)</DIV>

[Lleinen]

<P>When my sonic hits it crits for the upper 4000s all the way to 6300 about max. (think i got 6500 once)</P> <P> </P> <P>I agree with Tan...lotsa proc gear ftw...now make DT drop some decent loot please</P>

[Tanatus]

But of course you right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then you have brigands despatch then Sonic goes all way to the 5-6K, then I said around 4K I mean native crits with only self debuff on mob + breakdown