Coercer vs dirge in MT group

[Verlaine]

<DIV>Just looking to see which is better in the main tank group and why.  What do each bring to the table vs. the other.</DIV>

[Pins]

Why is it a vs? The answer is both.

[Chrysostom]

If it was absolutely impossible to have both, then dirge for most fights.  But yeah.... If you have both then they should both be there. <div></div>

[Viohlen]

<DIV>Coercer should only be in the MT group if you need the resists or the power regen/power control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe a Dev will comment on this, but I'm pretty certain that hate gain is capped, so the 40% dirge and 49% coercer won't stack completely (partially)</DIV>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viohlence wrote:<BR> <DIV>Coercer should only be in the MT group if you need the resists or the power regen/power control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe a Dev will comment on this, but I'm pretty certain that hate gain is capped, so the 40% dirge and 49% coercer won't stack completely (partially)</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We almost always go with a Dirge and Coercer for the double regen, and I don't know for sure, but you are probably right about there being hate gain cap.</P> <P>I guess the question is what is the value of having another class other than a coercer and a dirge?</P> <P>We occasionally go with a Pally or SK for extra mit, or a monk for avoidance, but 95% of the time its shaman (defiler) / druid / cleric (templar) / coercer / dirge / guardian.  It seems to be the most bang for the buck.</P> <P>Cyene<BR></P>

[Tasnus]

Dirges do the job just fine, in fact I'm almost always in the melee dps group now - and they're quite happy, especially the 'underpowered' ranger. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Tasnus wrote:Dirges do the job just fine, in fact I'm almost always in the melee dps group now - and they're quite happy, especially the 'underpowered' ranger. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>It's a toss up, we can add +heal crit to MT group, along with our myriad of other buffs, but we can also give quite a bit of dps to any dps group, mainly melee.  Dirge is typically the more accepted MT spot filler, but no class in teh game can compete with Coercer power control, from the regen to channel to mana cloak, all raid savers easily.  I would overall recommend the dirge for MT group (extra buffs), and the Coercer for melee dps group.<div></div>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viohlence wrote:<BR> <DIV>Coercer should only be in the MT group if you need the resists or the power regen/power control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe a Dev will comment on this, but I'm pretty certain that hate gain is capped, so the 40% dirge and 49% coercer won't stack completely (partially)</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lies!!! Lies I tell you!!!  :smileytongue:

[Roriondesexiest]

<P>I am always put in the MT group in raids (not saying right or wrong, thats just where I end up)</P> <P>I have 50+ points of power regen running + hate buff for tank + de-hate single target for healers or DPS (raid wide) + group de-hate AA + 14% chance for healers in the group to cast critical heal.</P> <P>Also have channel, ability to equally divide groups power, and a few other nice mana regen spells.</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh yeah, and don't forget our uber DPS....:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Viohlen]

<DIV>haha forgot about group heal crits (mine are maxed duh).  Definitely a benefit.</DIV>

[Aoi]

<P><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viohlence wrote:<BR> <DIV>haha forgot about group heal crits (mine are maxed duh).  Definitely a benefit.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yup, can't forget there are usually more healers in MT group than any other.</P> <P>Since we only have one regular raiding Coercer (me), I specced straight STA and WIS AAs.</P> <P>So basically:</P> <UL> <LI>Mana Regen</LI> <LI>Hate Buff</LI> <LI>Power/Mental Buff (+500 power is no joke)</LI> <LI>Channel</LI> <LI>Mana Cloak</LI> <LI>Empathic Aura</LI> <LI>Empathic Soothing</LI> <LI>+800 to all resists (which is a pretty big deal considering you really want the MT group to have the highest resists/HPs for survivability...especially in those zones that have a lot of "MT Group Only" AEs)</LI></UL> <P>Cyene</P>

[Korpo]

People still put three healers in the MT group?We usually go:<blockquote>Guard/Zerk Depending On The MobWarden/Temp DOTMDefilerDirgeCoercerCrusader, Swash, or Assassin</blockquote>I've never seen anything indicating there's a cap on hate buffs.<div></div>

[khufure]

I pull hate with my assasin unless there is both a dirge and a coercer, or dirge + me.  The whole raid force holds back with just a dirge and let loose with a dirge & coercer.  If there is a hate gain cap I'm not sure what it is.  The difference between 2 hate gains and 1 is really noticable.Haven't run into the coercer only situation yet except in a different setting.  I raid sometimes with my paladin and master amends on a warlock + a coercer in MT group.  Aggro is perfectly fine in this situation, assuming the warlock isn't a slacker.<div></div>

[Aoi]

<blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:People still put three healers in the MT group?We usually go:<blockquote>Guard/Zerk Depending On The MobWarden/Temp DOTMDefilerDirgeCoercerCrusader, Swash, or Assassin</blockquote>I've never seen anything indicating there's a cap on hate buffs.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, 3 healers is a standard setup, but like you said it depends on the mob. We also have been known to swap an SK or Pally in for the coercer or dirge. FYI, assassin hate transfer and coercer hate gain do not stack (just verified with our main assassin). Cyene <div></div>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aoine wrote:Well, 3 healers is a standard setup, but like you said it depends on the mob. We also have been known to swap an SK or Pally in for the coercer or dirge. FYI, assassin hate transfer and coercer hate gain do not stack (just verified with our main assassin). Cyene <div></div><hr></blockquote>#1 - 49% hate gain + assassin HT = stack#2 - 49% hate + ([expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HT + [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HT *49%) = not so much#1 works, #2 doesn't.  Some people might call that 'stacking'.   I tried this HT+HG expirement with paladin amends:Paladin has master amends on warlock (41%)Paladin has dirge 41% hate gainWarlock hits for X amount.  Let's say its 1000 and single target.  410 of that gets transferred to the paladin, leaving 590 hate for the warlock.  if the hate gain and hate transfer stacked, the paladin would get 410 + (410 * .41) 200.9 hate, or 610.9.  610.9 is more than 590.  If the warlock pulls with a spell it goes to the paladin.  If a pally body pulls, warlock casts, mob rushes the warlock.The Paladin would have to do 180 threat to the mob to keep the hate.  (180 hate X 100%) / 141% = 127.7~ hateHope that helps</div>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aoine wrote:Well, 3 healers is a standard setup, but like you said it depends on the mob. We also have been known to swap an SK or Pally in for the coercer or dirge. FYI, assassin hate transfer and coercer hate gain do not stack (just verified with our main assassin). Cyene<div></div><hr></blockquote>I can't think of a mob where one of our MTs would need three healers. Matron maybe?How did your assassin verify that coercer/assn hate doesn't stack? Sujectively it feels like the tank has more hate, but without a "hate-o-meter" it's hard to tell how much. If you have a method that proves it doesn't stack I'd be interested in hearing it.</div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Use both FTW if cannt then coercer is MUCH better then dirge</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) 49 vs. 40% hate - transforms into extra 100-200 DPS that each person on raid can afford to add before creating agro problem... In other words if you raid running at 7-9K DPS per raid and noone on raid cannt brake mark 1000DPS - dirge do job just fine... if not ... then tough luck because DPSers will have to hold DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>b) 42+15+41 power/tic for coercer vs. 42/tic for dirge ... any questions?</DIV> <DIV>c) Toss here chanel/mana cloack/mana flow .... dirge for a lose as you see</DIV> <DIV>d) +14% to crit heal vs.+7.5% crit heal + 7.5% crit damage tough call</DIV> <DIV>e) coercer have TOE (with right spec) which in sence = rescue every 20s vs. stone skin of dirge ... tough call</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you can get both in MT group if cannt then coercer obvious choice</DIV>

[Mage-Apprentice]

<P>Stoneskin, parry, defense buffs all are very good things to be placed on MT, coercer's solo mana regen isn't always needed.</P> <P>The third healer is over a 3th agro person can be for the minimal buffs it's gives (over hate) and good, cheap groupheals. True most nameds may not need 3 healers, but it is still a nice to have, and when the chit hits the fan, extra hot's over pure single heals is also nice.</P> <P> </P>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR>People still put three healers in the MT group?<BR><BR>We usually go:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Guard/Zerk Depending On The Mob<BR>Warden/Temp DOTM<BR>Defiler<BR>Dirge<BR>Coercer<BR>Crusader, Swash, or Assassin<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've never seen anything indicating there's a cap on hate buffs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, 3 healers is a standard setup, but like you said it depends on the mob.<BR><BR>We also have been known to swap an SK or Pally in for the coercer or dirge.<BR><BR>FYI, assassin hate transfer and coercer hate gain do not stack (just verified with our main assassin).<BR><BR>Cyene<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Umm that just isnt true.  I notice a big difference in tanks holding agro with me + assassin.  Just because someone says it doesnt stack doesnt mean its true.  I ran into a coercer who believes here nukes makes spell scourge proc?  Is it true?  No it most definately is not.  Just because she said it doesnt make it true.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Coercer give 85AGI .... that hell a lot avoidance per se and 85INT which is a bit damage</DIV>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div>Coercer give 85AGI .... that hell a lot avoidance per se and 85INT which is a bit damage</div><hr></blockquote>Most raid tanks are going to be capped on STA, STR, and AGI from gear and buffs. I don't usually run the INT/AGI buff on raids because that extra conc slot could be used for a dehate.</div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well since most folks dont capped on INT I do run it</DIV> <DIV>As for our amends I usually keep it only on brigands and warlocks </DIV>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div>Well since most folks dont capped on INT I do run it</div> <div>As for our amends I usually keep it only on brigands and warlocks </div><hr></blockquote>I look at it this way, 23% more dps out of a dpser before he pulls agro is probably going to be more than the extra dps out of a tank that he gains from 85 int. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well 85int IS 16% more DPS but for entier MT group ... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (85/510=0.1666)</DIV> <DIV>No seriously </DIV> <DIV>How many warlocks+wizards+brigands you have on raid? - I dont have more 3-4 plus we always have at least 1 paly = so all covered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Covering with amends scouts (except of brigand is waste imo)</DIV>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR><BR>Well, 3 healers is a standard setup, but like you said it depends on the mob.<BR><BR>We also have been known to swap an SK or Pally in for the coercer or dirge.<BR><BR>FYI, assassin hate transfer and coercer hate gain do not stack (just verified with our main assassin).<BR><BR>Cyene<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can't think of a mob where one of our MTs would need three healers. Matron maybe?<BR><BR>How did your assassin verify that coercer/assn hate doesn't stack? Sujectively it feels like the tank has more hate, but without a "hate-o-meter" it's hard to tell how much. If you have a method that proves it doesn't stack I'd be interested in hearing it.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When I said it doesn't stack, I meant that his hate transfer was <EM>actually dropping</EM>, not that we "couldn't tell whether the additional hate % was added".</P> <P>Edit:  Who said anything about "need".  That is our standard setup, we deviate from it where necessary.</P> <P>If you can name one class to replace the 3rd healer that just <STRONG>blows away</STRONG> all other classes in most situations, I am all ears.  But, given the nature of the responses on this thread, I would say the last 3 members of the MT group can be adequateley filled by a myriad of classes.</P> <P>Cyene</P><p>Message Edited by Aoine on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 AM</span>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipmode wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR>People still put three healers in the MT group?<BR><BR>We usually go:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Guard/Zerk Depending On The Mob<BR>Warden/Temp DOTM<BR>Defiler<BR>Dirge<BR>Coercer<BR>Crusader, Swash, or Assassin<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've never seen anything indicating there's a cap on hate buffs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, 3 healers is a standard setup, but like you said it depends on the mob.<BR><BR>We also have been known to swap an SK or Pally in for the coercer or dirge.<BR><BR>FYI, assassin hate transfer and coercer hate gain do not stack (just verified with our main assassin).<BR><BR>Cyene<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Umm that just isnt true.  I notice a big difference in tanks holding agro with me + assassin.  Just because someone says it doesnt stack doesnt mean its true.  I ran into a coercer who believes here nukes makes spell scourge proc?  Is it true?  No it most definately is not.  Just because she said it doesnt make it true.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Feel free to disagree with my post, I don't mind at all, but a lecture on the meaning of the word "true" is hardly necessary.</P> <P>Cyene</P>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aoine wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> korpo53 wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Aoine wrote:Well, 3 healers is a standard setup, but like you said it depends on the mob.We also have been known to swap an SK or Pally in for the coercer or dirge.FYI, assassin hate transfer and coercer hate gain do not stack (just verified with our main assassin).Cyene <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I can't think of a mob where one of our MTs would need three healers. Matron maybe?How did your assassin verify that coercer/assn hate doesn't stack? Sujectively it feels like the tank has more hate, but without a "hate-o-meter" it's hard to tell how much. If you have a method that proves it doesn't stack I'd be interested in hearing it.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>When I said it doesn't stack, I meant that his hate transfer was <em>actually dropping</em>, not that we "couldn't tell whether the additional hate % was added".</p> <p>Edit:  Who said anything about "need".  That is our standard setup, we deviate from it where necessary.</p> <p>If you can name one class to replace the 3rd healer that just <strong>blows away</strong> all other classes in most situations, I am all ears.  But, given the nature of the responses on this thread, I would say the last 3 members of the MT group can be adequateley filled by a myriad of classes.</p> <p>Cyene</p><p>Message Edited by Aoine on <span class="date_text">08-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:31 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The assassin hate transfer buff <u>does not</u> drop when a coercer puts his/her hate buff on a tank. If your assassin told you this he was either mistaken or lying.Swash (for groups) or assassin (for singles) in the MT group to hate transfer to the tank is better than a third healer, assuming your tank isn't at like 9k hp or something. Coercer hate + dirge hate + swash/assn hate means your DPS can pretty much go full bore and not pull agro. A defiler and warden (plus heals from the other groups) can heal through any damage I've ever seen our tanks take, other than 35k nukes from the Matron or whatever they are, the only reason we put a templar there is for an extra stoneskin and sanctuary if needed.</div>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div>Well 85int IS 16% more DPS but for entier MT group ... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (85/510=0.1666)</div> <div>No seriously </div> <div>How many warlocks+wizards+brigands you have on raid? - I dont have more 3-4 plus we always have at least 1 paly = so all covered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div>Covering with amends scouts (except of brigand is waste imo)</div><hr></blockquote>We usually go pretty DPS-heavy, two warlocks, two wizards, two brigands. We also usually have at least two assassins without anyone to really transfer hate onto, plus the one in the MT group. Pallies are an endangered species on our raids, we usually only take one when we have nobody else to fill in. I have plenty of people asking for a de-hate <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</div>

[Aoi]

<DIV>"Swash (for groups) or assassin (for singles) in the MT group to hate transfer to the tank is better than a third healer, assuming your tank isn't at like 9k hp or something. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See, this is where our experiences differ.  With a Dirge and a Coercer in the MT group, we never have agro issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, your guild's DPS could be doing more damage than ours, or they could just have problems controlling agro.  I can't really say that it's either of those or something entirely different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I can say is that we are usually healer heavy, and we currently don't have a Swash that raids regularly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also feel putting an assassin in the MT group is a waste of a good DPS class.  Why not put him in a group with a troub and an illusionist for max haste and dmg proc, plus troubador hate reduction?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again, the overall point is there is no "right or wrong" way to do it.  Sure, there may be a "most efficient" way, but it's just silly to talk about that since every guild (and every raid for that matter) is made up of entirely different ratios of classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to talk about The Perfect Raid Setup™, how about standard MT group, 3 furies and 15 brigands? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We make do with what we have, and don't try to min/max everything we kill.  It's just not fun for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>I see .... well with such amount of DPS hell ya it worth to strip down all buffs and give 5 Harmonious Link - no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</DIV>

[Mage-Apprentice]

<P>The only time we swap the third healer for a assisian is, when a mob memblurs a tank, otherwise we use 3 healers in the mt-group. (alongside coercer/dirgecombo)</P> <P>The guild I am in is dps-heavy (meaning total dps), and we don't actualy need that 3th hate transfer (he can better be placed in a group wheer he can do more dps due to buffs from others).</P>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aoine wrote:<div>"Swash (for groups) or assassin (for singles) in the MT group to hate transfer to the tank is better than a third healer, assuming your tank isn't at like 9k hp or something. "</div> <div> </div> <div>See, this is where our experiences differ.  With a Dirge and a Coercer in the MT group, we never have agro issues.</div> <div> </div> <div>Now, your guild's DPS could be doing more damage than ours, or they could just have problems controlling agro.  I can't really say that it's either of those or something entirely different.</div> <div> </div> <div>What I can say is that we are usually healer heavy, and we currently don't have a Swash that raids regularly.</div> <div> </div> <div>I also feel putting an assassin in the MT group is a waste of a good DPS class.  Why not put him in a group with a troub and an illusionist for max haste and dmg proc, plus troubador hate reduction?</div> <div> </div> <div>Once again, the overall point is there is no "right or wrong" way to do it.  Sure, there may be a "most efficient" way, but it's just silly to talk about that since every guild (and every raid for that matter) is made up of entirely different ratios of classes.</div> <div> </div> <div>If you want to talk about The Perfect Raid Setup™, how about standard MT group, 3 furies and 15 brigands? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>We make do with what we have, and don't try to min/max everything we kill.  It's just not fun for us.</div> <div> </div> <div>Cyene</div><hr></blockquote>We go as dps-heavy as possible so that we can do things as quickly as possible. When your raid is putting out an 18k+ parse you sorta need all the hate you can get. I suppose you're right though, if your raid is putting out 5k dps, an extra healer in the MT group would be better because you're going to take an hour to kill anything, and your tank is probably wearing xegonite armor.An assassin in the MT group doesn't <i>need</i> the troub dehate, since he's transfering hate to the MT. Sure he misses out on the haste, but haste doesn't add all that much dps. I don't know what proc you're talking about that a troub or illusionist can put on an assassin.<i>We make do with what we have, and don't try to min/max everything we kill.  It's just not fun for us.</i> That's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read, and I read my state voter's pamplet. Do your tanks go in wearing formal wear because it's more fun? Do you not bring healers because they have sorta-crappy fun spells? Do you put a tank with 5 healers because it might be fun? <b>Every</b> raid is min/maxed to some extent, and stacking your MT group with hate so your dps can go buck wild is hardly an extreme form of min/maxing.</div>

[Tanatus]

<P>Heh I wish we had 18K+ DPS ....  but anyway Previous poster right even if your raid putting up only 10+K DPS (which usually we do) you need a lot +hate for MT ...</P> <P>Look on it this way (pure subjective observation)</P> <P>- highest DPS on raid not exceed 1K DPS/total raid DPS less then 8K - dirge fit as hate giver just fine</P> <P>-highest DPS on raid clocking between 1-1.3K/total DPS of raid 9-11.5K - coercer along is sufficient but coercer amends are requied for 1K+ DPS ppl</P> <P>-highest DPS on raid clocking 1.6-2K DPS/DPS of raid 15+K DPS - you have to have both dirge and coercer within MT group</P> <P>Unfortunate SOE designed end-game of EQ2 to revolve around very rigid raid set up (MT group preset Guardian-Dirge-Coercer-Templar-Defiler-Warden/Assasin) + 10K DPS total at very least + 1 healer per none MT group + 1 troubadur per caster DPS group</P> <P> </P>

[Mage-Apprentice]

<P>Depending on zone we can also ditch up to 18k raidwide, and this is without a assisian as 3th agro transfer.</P> <P>btw many scouts also love a troubedour, they aren't purely for casters only.</P> <P> </P> <P>So I start to wonder what the 3th agro transfer really adds, meaby it helps to have 2 troub's and 2 coercers for dehate, (even have a illu), a third healer adds more security and buffs to the group.</P> <P> </P> <P>sorry to go a bit off toptic</P> <P> </P> <P>If you really can only chooice between a coercer and a dirge, imho a dirge winns in so many cases, 1 the 13 or so manaregen from a coercer extra isn't needed, alongside the temperal mantransfer.</P> <P>Manacloak/channel is hardly used by me, but CoB and stoneskinn of the dirge adds so much more (along side parry etc)</P> <P> </P> <P>In a few cases manaregen is needed over what the dirge gives, but that is limited.</P> <P>Agro is about the same, not many coercers have m1 enraging demeanor as it is a very rare spell now, m1 from the dirge is iirc almost the same as ad3 from the coercer and is less rare.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you want to split both dirge and coercer only due to manaregen, you may still want to try putting them together and have 1 group without regen, and regen back on nameds.</P> <P>However in the end a coercer/assisian combo is still valid, but dirge assisian is better.</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Once your tank achieve point of Mit exceeding 6.2K and HP of your tank pass mark 12K .... you dont need stone skin from dirge really, </P> <P>You also still failing to understand fact that if you raid dont do much DPS (8k or less) then yes you can afford keep dirge only in MT group  but anything above that mark (or better say anybody on raid with ability to sustein over 1K DPS) and you screwed. Dirge cannt maintain enouth hate on MT</P>

[Mage-Apprentice]

<P>The op asked what was better a dirge OR a coercer in mt group.</P> <P>Since most coercer have ad3 hate buff, and thus only 43% more hate, and the dirge adds almost the same, and the dirge has more meaningfull buffs for the MT, I say dirge>coercer if you have to choose, however than you  atleast need a assisian or so to bring up hate on MT.</P> <P>Both a dirge and a coercer is still better, but we derailed from the op question.</P> <P> </P> <P>Seeing the question from op, I think he isn't in a high-end guild, so the stoneskinn buff will help alot in that case.</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>You right I do have master enraging demeanor (49%) thats might make a visible difference</P> <P>I guess we can come to next cosensus</P> <P>Before deciding who to put in MT group (if you cannt put both of course) evaluate quality of spells of both if they same coercer is FTW in any given situation unless you tank have poor mit then dirge would be better choice</P>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR> <DIV>"Swash (for groups) or assassin (for singles) in the MT group to hate transfer to the tank is better than a third healer, assuming your tank isn't at like 9k hp or something. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See, this is where our experiences differ.  With a Dirge and a Coercer in the MT group, we never have agro issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, your guild's DPS could be doing more damage than ours, or they could just have problems controlling agro.  I can't really say that it's either of those or something entirely different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I can say is that we are usually healer heavy, and we currently don't have a Swash that raids regularly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also feel putting an assassin in the MT group is a waste of a good DPS class.  Why not put him in a group with a troub and an illusionist for max haste and dmg proc, plus troubador hate reduction?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again, the overall point is there is no "right or wrong" way to do it.  Sure, there may be a "most efficient" way, but it's just silly to talk about that since every guild (and every raid for that matter) is made up of entirely different ratios of classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to talk about The Perfect Raid Setup™, how about standard MT group, 3 furies and 15 brigands? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We make do with what we have, and don't try to min/max everything we kill.  It's just not fun for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We go as dps-heavy as possible so that we can do things as quickly as possible. When your raid is putting out an 18k+ parse you sorta need all the hate you can get. I suppose you're right though, if your raid is putting out 5k dps, an extra healer in the MT group would be better because you're going to take an hour to kill anything, and your tank is probably wearing xegonite armor.<BR><BR>An assassin in the MT group doesn't <I>need</I> the troub dehate, since he's transfering hate to the MT. Sure he misses out on the haste, but haste doesn't add all that much dps. I don't know what proc you're talking about that a troub or illusionist can put on an assassin.<BR><BR><I>We make do with what we have, and don't try to min/max everything we kill.  It's just not fun for us.</I> That's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read, and I read my state voter's pamplet. Do your tanks go in wearing formal wear because it's more fun? Do you not bring healers because they have sorta-crappy fun spells? Do you put a tank with 5 healers because it might be fun? <B>Every</B> raid is min/maxed to some extent, and stacking your MT group with hate so your dps can go buck wild is hardly an extreme form of min/maxing.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dude, are you somehow taking my posts as an attack on you, or do you just get off on making snide comments when I am trying to have a civilized discussion here?  Someone disagreeing with you is no reason to be an a55.</P> <P>You really don't know troubs have a dmg add spell?  And, you really think haste isn't that big of a deal?</P> <P>And actually thought you actually knew what you were talking about...either way this conversation is done, you are more interested in being a d.i.c.k. than having a thoughtful debate.</P> <P>Cyene</P>

[Korpo]

Of course troubs have a damage adding spell, Alin's. Of course, it only procs on spell casts. I don't know about you, but our assassins don't run around casting too many spells.<div></div>