Why does charm break?

[Delameko Stone]

This isn't a rant.I just don't see the reason why charm breaks.  Necro, Conjuror and Illusionist pets don't 'de-summon' randomly.If the charm didn't have a timer I could see the reason more.  As it is I've only seen my charmed pet reach the end of the time on a couple of occasions.I'd like to see Master charms be unbreakable, or give the charm a slightly longer duration, make it unbreakable, but make charmed mobs not recharmable.Basically what I'm saying is charm breaks really mess up my strategies as 60% of the time they prove fatal <span>:smileytongue:Thoughts?</span>

[skidmark]

My Adept III Coerce seems to work for the full duration except on yellow mobs.

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Delameko Stone wrote:<BR>This isn't a rant.<BR><BR>I just don't see the reason why charm breaks.  Necro, Conjuror and Illusionist pets don't 'de-summon' randomly.<BR><BR>If the charm didn't have a timer I could see the reason more.  As it is I've only seen my charmed pet reach the end of the time on a couple of occasions.<BR><BR>I'd like to see Master charms be unbreakable, or give the charm a slightly longer duration, make it unbreakable, but make charmed mobs not recharmable.<BR><BR>Basically what I'm saying is charm breaks really mess up my strategies as 60% of the time they prove fatal <SPAN>:smileytongue:<BR><BR>Thoughts?<BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>In many ways Coercer pets are much stronger and more adaptive than summoned pets, but the answer to your question is balance.  They would have to nerf Charm to all hell if the pets were pade permanent.</P> <P>Charm is supposed to be a risk.  It is supposed to kill you everyone once and awhile when it breaks at the wrong moment; that is part of the inherent excitement of the class.</P> <P>I would try to not think of Coercer as a pet class, because you will find we pale in comparison to Summoners in that respect (we have zero pet specific spells, for example).  </P> <P>Coercers are a support class with a particularly strong offensive CC (but risky and situational) ability.</P> <P>Cyene</P>

[chily]

<SPAN> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Delameko Stone wrote:<BR>This isn't a rant.<BR><BR>I just don't see the reason why charm breaks.  Necro, Conjuror and Illusionist pets don't 'de-summon' randomly.<BR><BR>If the charm didn't have a timer I could see the reason more.  As it is I've only seen my charmed pet reach the end of the time on a couple of occasions.<BR><BR>I'd like to see Master charms be unbreakable, or give the charm a slightly longer duration, make it unbreakable, but make charmed mobs not recharmable.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>noooo, i love the break's that is the most fun while i play, but tbh a break everymin in HOF could be boring lol</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>Basically what I'm saying is charm breaks really mess up my strategies as 60% of the time they prove fatal <SPAN>:smileytongue:<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>then you maybe use the wrong strategies</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>for grouping:</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>if it breaks just mezz your pet what takes 2secs while the group sort the other mobs out</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>check the group mabye a aoe mezz or stun to support them for some secs while you recharm.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>chancel the mezz from your pet and support the group full again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>if the timer is near the add, warn the group that you need to recharm pet</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>for solo:</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Mezz them all, recharm pet, sort the mezz and pray to can kill them hehe</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>no one said that Coercer is a easy class to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>Thoughts?<BR></SPAN><BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV><BR></SPAN> <DIV> </DIV>

[Delameko Stone]

I think the thing that is annoying is that I have a Master charm and it breaks all the time.Plus I don't like things easy, and I'm often attacking things that are a little too hard for me - when 'snap!' charm breaks, I mezz the group, then try to recharm the pet while its wailing on me, then hope I've got enough time to control the group before they beat me into a pancake.  I am only in my 20s at the moment, so I'm hoping things will improve when I've got some more tools in my arsenal.  It is only solo play that's a problem, I love group work <span>but then I don't usually use a pet in a group.</span>

[Outerspace]

In what situation does your charm break? Are you using your pet to tank? I find that if I don't use my pet as a meat shield, it almost never breaks charm (this is also with Master 1 Domination). Yes it can break at inopportune moments, but you deal with it. When taking triple ups its no problem, with heroic groups it needs a bit more work and preparation. As you level your stuns and area mez have a longer duration so it does get a bit easier though. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you are opening your fight with area mez on a group and then picking off each group member with your pet, then if you single mez each of the mobs covered by the area mez you can control the encounter a bit better giving you less risk if your pet breaks free of charm (you would only have one mob that's "loose"). You can't have your cake and eat it though. Charming powerful pets does come with an associated risk, but that's part of the fun, trying different pets and knowing that it can break any time and you might be forced into some quick coercing work. Some have high resists for mental meaning they rebel a bit more, etc.As an aside, it's worth using a mage or priest pet in a group if you have Master charm.<div></div>

[Delameko Stone]

Yeah, I am using it to tank.  I'll have to try some different techniques.I think I'm going to have to spend a little longer looking for a decent pet, I tend to grab the first thing I see and hope its a priest/mage.Thanks for everyones input.

[Outerspace]

I think my post may have been a little misleading. Its not "wrong" to use pets for tanking, just from personal experience I have noticed that they have a tendency to break charm a bit more (but not <i>that</i> much). I use healer pets to tank for me fairly often, but I am ready if they break charm (keep the mob rooted/stunned whilst you re-charm, or mez if there are no DoT's on it). Heroic pets can cause you a problem and they are not necessarily the best type of pet anyway - it's all about the script the mob is loaded with.In groups when DPS'ing, I have had no problem with mobs breaking charm and I usually get the full duration.Agility AA also gives some increases to casting times which you may like to try - useful for re-mezzing or firing off a fast stun.Coercer can be frustrating at lower levels but dont give up! The more tools you get the more fun it gets <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Delameko Stone]

I was playing my necro last night and I was thinking how my undead charm doesn't break and last for like 27 minutes or close at Ad3.  I think that was probably why I was more frustrated with my Coercer charms...I am enjoying it, I just have to see the class on its own merits <span>:smileywink:</span>

[Flipmode]

I partially agree with the OP.  We seem to get double penalized with charm.  The pets health already gets downgraded to nothing plus the early break.  People say our pets are powerful.  That is true depending on the pet and level of the charm.  SOE should leave the early break in game but then the pet should retain its full power and hps and the break chance increased.  That or leave it as is now where the pet gets scaled but lasts the duration.  One or the other IMO.

[ChrisRay]

To be honest I havent found much of a problem with charm breaking. Solo mobs just dont hit hard enough to give you the "omg kneejerk I'm gonna die" responce. Generally if a charm breaks in a 1v1 fight I will root the target I am fighting. Mez the pet and recharm.  It's a totally systematic responce and pets lose all their buffs when charm breaks so its not like you have to worry about some overbuffed pet kicking your butt like they did in EQ 1. Really though I see no reason to make charm permanent. Its an extremely versatile method of crowd control and can really kickstart your DPS as well. When the LU13 first rolled around charm didnt break and they quickly decided it was overpowered and adjusted the way charm worked.   <div></div>

[Gutmonger]

I choose Coercer mainly because I have done every other class and I was bored to tears. Coercers are always very buisy and I find there to be more tactics involved. If the charm was permanent I dont think I would have as much fun.

[Outerspace]

<div></div><div></div>We all know what SOE are like. They don't just give you something without taking something else away. Do you really want them to start messing with charm again? If they made charm have no chance to break, they would nerf the pets. If you want a permanent pet roll illusionist. The flexibility of charm provides the biggest distinction between our class and illusionist. If it was permanent and the pet was gimped, then the two classes would be virtually identical apart from a few buffs. Charm breaking really isn't impacting on my gameplay at all at the moment. I expect it, I can (try to) handle it when it happens. You do get a few seconds stun on the mob when it breaks giving you a chance to mez it unless you're using an early version of charm, but you know how to fix that problem. In addition if you charm heroic pets, you know you have to be ready to mez it at any moment or you're dead.Mage and priest pets hit <b>much</b> harder when charmed. Corpse candles nuke me for about 800-1000, but when they are charmed they nuke anything up to 10k (I actually had a 9.9k crit from a level 67 candle the other day). I realise that's with master 1 Domination and not everyone has it, but even Adept 3 corpse candles are good and can do 3k nukes. The only thing they lose are hit points. <span>People always scream nerf about candles because they see the big nukes, but the beauty of that pet is that they are all the same and only do direct damage nukes.</span> You don't need to use pets to tank, you have the tools to keep the mob at distance at all times. If you want to be able to do nothing, send your pet in to tank and then DoT the mob, roll a necromancer. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span>I would prefer to limit the charm break chance as much as possible. Perhaps if they gave coercer another ability to "charm" a mob and keep it's full power, health and such but only for 5 minutes with some sort of residual charm immunity or something that might be cool. But it'll never happen as you could just steamroller any named with it. Imagine those level 70^^^ healer trees on carrion briar!<div></div><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 AM</span>

[Aoi]

<DIV>"If you want to be able to do nothing, send your pet in to tank and then DoT the mob, roll a necromancer. <SPAN><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> "</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>QFT</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>I'll repeat what I said before, Coercers are not a pet class.  Charm is a form of offensive crowd control.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Cyene</SPAN></DIV>

[Bloodtoo]

We bashed our brains out with the devs over this on Beta-test back when in went in.  Basically it's two things 1) they felt Charm was over powered with out random break.  2) They thought it would make it more "fun" to have that uncertainly factor.  Weeeeee.They would not budge they will not budge on this point.  THey have however drastically reduced the break rate as it used to only last a couple of minutes tops often only a few seconds.If you use the right tactics random break is easily managed.<div></div>

[Delameko Stone]

Aha!  The thing that was annoying me was the fact my charm broke so often, despite the fact I had a Master charm.Well... I bought a new robe last night, and the charm only broke twice all night!  Looks like my old robe was bugged or somethin.