Common Coercer Fallacies

[Flipmode]

<DIV>Have you ever heard someone whp was a coercer claim they could do something that just want true?  Ever heard an outlandish claim from a coercer?  Post em here.  I will start</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>1.  Met a coercer who claims to parse 1.7-2k petless on raids.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know what they are smoking, but even with all the proc gear you can find and being agi/int spec'd that is HIGHLY unbelievable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>2.  Spell Scourge procs when we cast a spell</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>You may laugh at this one, but i have met a few coercers who believe this.  It is simply not true.  Spell Scourge line is a REACTIVE you place on a mob and only fires when they cast a spell.  Want proof?  Go cast it on a melee type mob and then nuke em repeatedly and see if it procs even once.  Odds are it wont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>3.  High intelligence makes your mezzes land better</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another false claim.  Intelligence has to do with how damaging your spells are and how much power a mage has.  It also helps poisons and procs damage increase.  That is it.  You mezzes land better based on the quality of the spell vs. the level of the mob you are trying to mez.  It is debatable if increasing subjugation helps at all.  Personally, I dont feel it does but that debate is for another topic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets hear it folks.  What false stuff have you heard from your fellow coercers that was wrong.  This is the place to set em straight.  Enjoy :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Lleinen]

Only time on raids I can parse around 1.7k is when we pull 4 or more mobs and I gotta get lucky with crits and procs

[PluvianMi]

<P>Hey, I've managed well over 3K on some T6 raids as a level 70 Coercer.</P> <P>ROFL.</P> <P> </P> <P>When we finish T7 zones early on some raiding nights we've done some T6 zones to finish off the night just to continue raiding for a while.   The mobs in those zones fall over so easy especially all those groups of froggie things in SC - I've managed well over 3K on against those groups (though of course the Wizzies manage 6K+).</P> <P>I've not seen any Coercers manage anywhere near what you're mentioning in T7 zones without charmees though.</P>

[Vydian]

<div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>  <div><font color="#ff0000">2.  Spell Scourge procs when we cast a spell</font></div> <div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div> <div>You may laugh at this one, but i have met a few coercers who believe this.  It is simply not true.  Spell Scourge line is a REACTIVE you place on a mob and only fires when they cast a spell.  Want proof?  Go cast it on a melee type mob and then nuke em repeatedly and see if it procs even once.  Odds are it wont.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>While you are completely right that it doesn't proc when we cast spells, the description is misleading (or it's a bug) as it will go off on meele mob CA's. Use it with the Auspex line and when a meele mob uses a CA that is also an attack, you'll get 2 convulsion procs. It would be easier to see this if both lines didn't proc as convulsion, but oh well. </blockquote></div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>1.  Possible for short duration fights per se full spec in INT+AGI, good procing gear and ideal group set up should bring you  above 1K DPS susteined w/o any problem</DIV> <DIV>2. Odd - never seen person who think this way.... But I have seen tone of ppl who dont know that Spell Scourge goes off not only on enemy spells but also on all enemy CA....</DIV> <DIV>3. Claim it true ... Higher Int allow you pierce better enemy Wis... Check history of patches... To overcome enemy wisdom you need have higher Int... Of course Int dont do a crap vs. native resistance thats given. Subjugation dont help per se vs. Yellow and higher conned mobs (per statement of SOE) - Skills have positive effect ONLY if you fight something that have lower level then you ... kinda useless if you ask me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most stupid thing I ever seen was: in Vaults... coercer was NOT charming .... and giving Impetus to scout instead motivating that it produce higher DPS</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<DIV>1.  Possible for short duration fights per se full spec in INT+AGI, good procing gear and ideal group set up should bring you  above 1K DPS susteined w/o any problem</DIV> <DIV>2. Odd - never seen person who think this way.... But I have seen tone of ppl who dont know that Spell Scourge goes off not only on enemy spells but also on all enemy CA....</DIV> <DIV>3. Claim it true ... Higher Int allow you pierce better enemy Wis... Check history of patches... To overcome enemy wisdom you need have higher Int... Of course Int dont do a crap vs. native resistance thats given. Subjugation dont help per se vs. Yellow and higher conned mobs (per statement of SOE) - Skills have positive effect ONLY if you fight something that have lower level then you ... kinda useless if you ask me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most stupid thing I ever seen was: in Vaults... coercer was NOT charming .... and giving Impetus to scout instead motivating that it produce higher DPS</DIV><hr></blockquote> 3 is totally incorrect as it was removed in the combat system. It was going to be STR vs. AGI = chance to hit, and INT vs. WIS = chance to resist, but it was decided that it was a stupid idea and was completely removed. It is just one of those features that did not make it. And subjugation does help a bit vs. higher level mobs, but the bonus is so small, that it's pointless to even bother.

[chily]

<P>to 1.)</P> <P>1.7 - 2k DPS? </P> <P>it's imposs to parse right in raids or on 2 or more mobs with the same name <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>the only real qualitative parses are on solo mobs.</P> <P>When i solo with corpse candle pet in bm (ad3 charm only), i make like 300 to 500 dps and pet like 400 to 600 and that is a high dps for me. 1.7k doesn't sound right for me. Check a log when you got numbers like1.7 and you'll see that your hits land faster then you could cast them.</P> <P>I had over 1k dps once, in a fight ... according to the log file the fight was 3 secs i think and i hitted 6 or 9 times lol.</P> <P>really every litte lag can push the dps from parses.</P> <P> </P> <P>to 3.)</P> <P>i say it in this way, i heard that:</P> <P>4 points of subjugation is 1 level. i didn't wonder now, why i was able to mezz 3 mobs in sepulcher at 64-65.</P> <P>(280 cap/70 Levels = 4 skillpoints each level)</P>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PluvianMist wrote:<BR> <P>Hey, I've managed well over 3K on some T6 raids as a level 70 Coercer.</P> <P>ROFL.</P> <P> </P> <P>When we finish T7 zones early on some raiding nights we've done some T6 zones to finish off the night just to continue raiding for a while.   The mobs in those zones fall over so easy especially all those groups of froggie things in SC - I've managed well over 3K on against those groups (though of course the Wizzies manage 6K+).</P> <P>I've not seen any Coercers manage anywhere near what you're mentioning in T7 zones without charmees though.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am not talking about the short raid fights.  I mean the ones where a mob has enough hps to not be a pushover.  In PPR, I can do tons of dps but that doesnt really count as a current tier raid IMO.

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> chily wrote:<BR> <P>to 1.)</P> <P>1.7 - 2k DPS? </P> <P>it's imposs to parse right in raids or on 2 or more mobs with the same name <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>the only real qualitative parses are on solo mobs.</P> <P>When i solo with corpse candle pet in bm (ad3 charm only), i make like 300 to 500 dps and pet like 400 to 600 and that is a high dps for me. 1.7k doesn't sound right for me. Check a log when you got numbers like1.7 and you'll see that your hits land faster then you could cast them.</P> <P>I had over 1k dps once, in a fight ... according to the log file the fight was 3 secs i think and i hitted 6 or 9 times lol.</P> <P>really every litte lag can push the dps from parses.</P> <P> </P> <P>to 3.)</P> <P>i<FONT color=#ff0000> say it in this way, i heard that:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>4 points of subjugation is 1 level. i didn't wonder now, why i was able to mezz 3 mobs in sepulcher at 64-65.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>(280 cap/70 Levels = 4 skillpoints each level)</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This used to be true but during LU 13, something was changed where this is no longer true.  Feel free to test it. Subj caps at 350 at lvl 70 without gear.  Now put gear on or raise it into the 400+ range and I bet you will not notice a bit of difference.

[chily]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flipmode wrote:</DIV> <DIV>This used to be true but during LU 13, something was changed where this is no longer true.  Feel free to test it. Subj caps at 350 at lvl 70 without gear.  Now put gear on or raise it into the 400+ range and I bet you will not notice a bit of difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wasn't sure if it's 280 or 350 hehe<BR>I think the skills still have a use, thats why we have have them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>I will try with my 43 warlock he has a subjugation buff, ok not at the cap but a test in general.<BR></DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>chily wrote:<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flipmode wrote:</DIV> <DIV>This used to be true but during LU 13, something was changed where this is no longer true.  Feel free to test it. Subj caps at 350 at lvl 70 without gear.  Now put gear on or raise it into the 400+ range and I bet you will not notice a bit of difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wasn't sure if it's 280 or 350 hehe<BR>I think the skills still have a use, thats why we have have them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>I will try with my 43 warlock he has a subjugation buff, ok not at the cap but a test in general.<BR></DIV><hr></blockquote> With 400-470 Subjugation you will still get resists, even on level 74 mobs. Thus, Subjugation does very little, if anything at all.

[Swedemon]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:With 400-470 Subjugation you will still get resists, even on level 74 mobs. Thus, Subjugation does very little, if anything at all.<hr></blockquote>Thats like jumping off a 50 story building and saying, "Hey if I opted to use the elevator it does have a chance to snap and fall 50 stories."

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Well, I took the +42 subjugation AA for the moment because all I do is CC on my raids and group play.</P> <P>Honestly, I can count on one hand how many times Mez or Amnesia was resisted in the past months since I've had this. Charm has never been resisted, not once, and that's with 7-8 Charms every Lyceum raid (not to mention all the solo and group play). I've only had charm break on me very early once in the past month (solo, not raid), and I can't recall a situation previous to that where it was much earlier.</P> <P>This is with Adept 3 Mez's and Master 1 lvl 33 Charm.</P> <P> </P> <P>Prior to the bonus to skills, I was getting resists a LOT on raids, 25-33% of the time. Every 3rd or 4th mez was resisted. Amnesia was resisted 3 times in a row.</P> <P>So in my experience, I needed to make sure that my CC was going to work NOW.. because in some situations even having it work on the 2nd try would be too late. However, if I start getting Masters in some of these spells... or if my role changes.. I'll probably not need the +subjugation anymore. I have a feeling that even +50 skill doesn't compare to an extra 10% harder resistability from upgrading.</P> <P> </P>

[Tanatus]

With 100% M1/2 spells (save mana cloak lol and amensia) I dont see difference between 357 seflbuff Subj and 410 subj (buffed via other classes).. Actually my charm resist a lot more then I have high subj ... (a lot a little to strong word but lets say on every 50 point of subj I observe 10% more resists on charm)

[norberg]

So is WIS not of any use at all for chanters anymore, particularly regarding resists?

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> norberg02 wrote:<BR>So is WIS not of any use at all for chanters anymore, particularly regarding resists?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wis is useful for caster for increasing their personal resistances, but that is it.  Doesn't help you spells be more effective or anything like that.

[ootpek]

Raidi...Amnesia uses Ordination doesn't it?  Any less resists on that is just luck, not your +subj.  I charm alot, solo alot, and try to keep my pets for as long as possible.  I have 424 subj if I try.  I do like keeping it high and I can't remember the last time I didn't get a mob early break or a resist on a mez.  Even helps with root. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now saying that...it USED to have way more of an effect with +5 being an extra level of casting skill.  Now it's much less of an effect and developers have said it's more useful for higher mobs than you, for mobs at or below your level it's more like overkill.  Of course I'm evil and LIKE overkill too. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Korpo]

Subjectively, buffing subj helps quite a bit if you're fighting orange mobs. When the high level mobs in HoF were still orange I had a rough time landing anything on them, even with M1 charm, stuns, debuff, mezzes, etc. Having the +subj buff from the wis line and either a troub or warlock in the group made it a cakewalk, but that's like +75 points of subj buffing in addition to the +10 or whatever I have from gear.I have a warlock in addition to my coercer, and running the +33 cast skill buff all the time has kind of spoiled me. I fear no mob unless it's orange or red. It was a bit of a shock to see resists vs. yellows with my coercer.<div></div>

[Nupr]

<DIV>I think subjugation does help personally.  Not by a large amount but to some degree.  I took a troub guildie through Nizara the other day and on the last fight we had him play Swan Song or whatever song it is that buffs all casting abilities.  Mezzing the adds seemed easier with 400+ subjugation.  I still had a bad resist run at one point and one almost got free but overall it went much smoother.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That fight is probably one of the best places to see it since it involves heavy mezzing for a good duration on orange mobs.</DIV>

[PluvianMi]

<P>I have M1 mezzes and rarely have subjugation much over the base 350 max and almost never see a mez get resisted so at this point it isn't worth it for me to worry about getting my subjugation higher.</P> <P>Form charming I get resists on the mobs that are above level 70, however, that is more do to my only having a Dominate M1 since I've never seen a Domination M1.</P> <P> </P> <P>Increasing ordination does make a very apprecialble difference for me when casting Amnesia though.</P>

[PluvianMi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipmode wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PluvianMist wrote:<BR> <P>Hey, I've managed well over 3K on some T6 raids as a level 70 Coercer.</P> <P>ROFL.</P> <P> </P> <P>When we finish T7 zones early on some raiding nights we've done some T6 zones to finish off the night just to continue raiding for a while.   The mobs in those zones fall over so easy especially all those groups of froggie things in SC - I've managed well over 3K on against those groups (though of course the Wizzies manage 6K+).</P> <P>I've not seen any Coercers manage anywhere near what you're mentioning in T7 zones without charmees though.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am not talking about the short raid fights.  I mean the ones where a mob has enough hps to not be a pushover.  In PPR, I can do tons of dps but that doesnt really count as a current tier raid IMO.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>In case you didn't notice, I was attempting a bit of sarcasm / humor.</P> <P><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>