Coercer changes LU 27a

[ProphecyCT]

<DIV> <STRONG>Coercer changes:<BR></STRONG>- Empathic Link: Removed restriction from hate decrease so that it can affect fighters as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, our fighters in my guild generate way too much aggro =P.</DIV>

[nscragg]

<P>ghad.. confused it with something else.  nvm</P><p>Message Edited by nscragg on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[Flipmode]

Having both a 70 Coercer and a 70 Illusionist, I have to congratulate SOE on the merger of the 2 classes.  If this doesnt prove that Illusionists are now totally underclasses by Coercers...nothing will.

[Apathyloves]

What kind of crazy combinations can we drum up, ((coercer link line + brigand amazing reflexes)(swashy transfer - pally amends)^scout evade))/((monk thread per hit/SK threat over time)+(healers healing))= I don't know what our monk and zerker do go a little overboard, will be a good test to see if the feature is worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nektulos.willbender <div></div>

[Leawyn]

<DIV>Does Empathic link really have a fighter restriction? Thought that restriction was on our AA line only?</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Most hate reductions were "if not fighter" restricted. There was only a few that weren't (Guardian's % reducer, Pally amends technically, maybe one or two others).</P> <P> </P> <P>I personally like this change. We ended up never using it on a fighter anyways, since the "procs when hit with spell" happens so rarely, you'd be lucky to see it go off even once per fight.</P> <P>The real potential I can see here is putting Link on a wizard... have a pally amends the wizard... then put another Link on the pally, lol. Get that aggro down twice! It's like putting Link on both a summoner and his pet (which I had to do once on a pickup raid... summoner's pet was constantly stealing aggro).</P>

[Tanatus]

Actually good change .... now we can give link to the zerkers which is good

[Lleinen]

Only time I needed to use this was with double attacks on ranged for our monks (parsing around 1.5k+ EVERY fight) with the sheth.  Seeing as thats gone GU27 anyway.../shrug, this doesnt do too much

[Jinnchanter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ProphecyCT wrote:<BR> <DIV> <STRONG>Coercer changes:<BR></STRONG>- Empathic Link: Removed restriction from hate decrease so that it can affect fighters as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, our fighters in my guild generate way too much aggro =P.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Empathic Link is low lv spell. And does T7 Link spell work on fighter ,too ?<BR>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Jinnchanter wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ProphecyCT wrote:<BR> <DIV> <STRONG>Coercer changes:<BR></STRONG>- Empathic Link: Removed restriction from hate decrease so that it can affect fighters as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, our fighters in my guild generate way too much aggro =P.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Empathic Link is low lv spell. And does T7 Link spell work on fighter ,too ?<BR><hr></blockquote> When SoE mentions the starting spell of a line, they apply it to all in the line.

[Viohlen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipmode wrote:<BR> Having both a 70 Coercer and a 70 Illusionist, I have to congratulate SOE on the merger of the 2 classes.  If this doesnt prove that Illusionists are now totally underclasses by Coercers...nothing will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Huh?</P> <P>No offense our friend, but how does this merge the classes more?  </P> <P>Illusionists spell works on hostile spell procs, something that fighters can only proc if they use their taunts (w/ exception of crusaders, pal/shd).  </P> <P> </P> <P>Does this give a benefit to Coercers that Illusionists do not have?  Yes.  Does this merge the classes?  No, if anything this seperates them.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Viohlence wrote:Huh?No offense our friend, but how does this merge the classes more? Illusionists spell works on hostile spell procs, something that fighters can only proc if they use their taunts (w/ exception of crusaders, pal/shd).<hr></blockquote>The Illusionist spell proc as a de-aggro is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing joke. It ends up giving no de-aggro at all. It just gives 0 Hate damage, while the coercer equivalent is a pure de-aggro.

[ProphecyCT]

Coercers need a nerf =P  And Illusionist needs a buff up, because Illusionist need to stop betraying =P.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>ProphecyCT wrote:Coercers need a nerf =P  And Illusionist needs a buff up, because Illusionist need to stop betraying =P.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Haha!

[Andu]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>Viohlence wrote:Huh?No offense our friend, but how does this merge the classes more? Illusionists spell works on hostile spell procs, something that fighters can only proc if they use their taunts (w/ exception of crusaders, pal/shd).<hr></blockquote>The Illusionist spell proc as a de-aggro is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing joke. It ends up giving no de-aggro at all. It just gives 0 Hate damage, while the coercer equivalent is a pure de-aggro.<hr></blockquote> Yeah but to be fair, your procs are actually worthwhile whereas the procs on our line suck badly. If they made it so your deagro component was percentage based and our procs actually fired, THEN we would be merging the classes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Viohlen]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viohlence wrote:<BR>Huh?<BR>No offense our friend, but how does this merge the classes more? <BR>Illusionists spell works on hostile spell procs, something that fighters can only proc if they use their taunts (w/ exception of crusaders, pal/shd).<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>The Illusionist spell proc as a de-aggro is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing joke. It ends up giving no de-aggro at all. It just gives 0 Hate damage, while the coercer equivalent is a pure de-aggro.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe I missed something here...  Illusionist dehate is 33% chance to proc a 650-750 dehate on each offensive spell(can hit multiple targets in same encounter if aoe'ng)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>+/-% Hate modifiers are capped, -50% hate and +50% hate.  So Harmonious Link line is wasted if dehate on a particular person is more than 20%, (ie rangers, troub groups etc.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Procs are not capped, numerous classes have spells/abilities to trigger more procs(spell haste).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'm happy w/ the Coercer spell, but I never cry to have Synergism on during raids of the illusionist has conc left.  Calling it 'a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing joke.'  is nice and all, but you're not giving your class enough credit.</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Viohlence wrote:Maybe I missed something here...  Illusionist dehate is 33% chance to proc a 650-750 dehate on each offensive spell(can hit multiple targets in same encounter if aoe'ng)<hr></blockquote>33% chance on hostile spell is once every 9 seconds assuming no spell haste/recovery(and if the proc goes your way too, which most of the time it does not). 614-751 de-aggro and it does on a raid an average of around 573. Lets see, so that's basically around 120 de-aggro once every 9 seconds. I had it on myself, and I went AGI line, so I have spell haste/recovery, and it proc'd 180 times. Except for me since I do more damage than normally(Volatile Magic FTW) and it did 701 median, so that's about a 19 hate gain on each proc of it. That is a piece of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] compared to a pure 23% de-aggro that is constant. So, let's compare that to link on myself, and not counting the dynamism damage, well then again there is no comparison. It is a hate gain, not a hate loss. So, therefore Link > Dynamism for de-aggro. It's not a de-aggro, it's just "free" damage.<blockquote><hr>-% Hate modifiers are capped, -50% hate and +50% hate.  So Harmonious Link line is wasted if dehate on a particular person is more than 20%, (ie rangers, troub groups etc.)<hr></blockquote>This I don't believe at all. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to notice the difference between a tank having a Coercer's hate gain and having a Coercer and Dirge's hate gain.

[norberg]

caped hate at 50% just isn't true as plenty of raid guilds can tell you-

[Viohlen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> norberg02 wrote:<BR>caped hate at 50% just isn't true as plenty of raid guilds can tell you-<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh, so we've never run into invisible caps before in this game?</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Viohlence wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> norberg02 wrote:<BR>caped hate at 50% just isn't true as plenty of raid guilds can tell you-<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh, so we've never run into invisible caps before in this game?</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> When somebody can easily notice the difference between Coercer hate and Coercer+Dirge hate, it's obvious that it's not capped at 50%.

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viohlence wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipmode wrote:<BR> Having both a 70 Coercer and a 70 Illusionist, I have to congratulate SOE on the merger of the 2 classes.  If this doesnt prove that Illusionists are now totally underclasses by Coercers...nothing will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Huh?</P> <P>No offense our friend, but how does this merge the classes more?  </P> <P>Illusionists spell works on hostile spell procs, something that fighters can only proc if they use their taunts (w/ exception of crusaders, pal/shd).  </P> <P> </P> <P>Does this give a benefit to Coercers that Illusionists do not have?  Yes.  Does this merge the classes?  No, if anything this seperates them.</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>its quite simple.  They are making the Coercers superior in every respect.  With all the stuff a coercer can do, why have an Illusionst?  The influx of new freshly betrayed coercers make this clear.  Coercers have it better than their counterparts in EVERY regard and the gap just keeps getting wider.</P> <P>And FYI, you are so wrong about the hate and deaggro being capped its not funny.</P>

[electricninjasex]

For soloing: Illusionist > Coercer Small adjustments to spell lines will not change this. <div></div>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR>For soloing:<BR><BR>Illusionist > Coercer<BR><BR>Small adjustments to spell lines will not change this.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is just not true.  At times it is but most of the time its the other way around.

[feronia28]

The day I beat an illusionist in raid on the dps parse will be a freaking miracle. Better buffs, that's the trade off. It's like comparing apples with apples but one of the apples is a green apple and the other apple is red.

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> feronia28 wrote:<BR>The day I beat an illusionist in raid on the dps parse will be a freaking miracle. Better buffs, that's the trade off. It's like comparing apples with apples but one of the apples is a green apple and the other apple is red.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you are not parsing close to the illusionist, I assure you it is you that are doing something wrong.  With the same proc gear and the agi line, a coercer can put out nearly the same dps.  The only factor that gives Illusionists the edge is coercers are dependant on mobs procing our reactives.  Not all do at the same rate.

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Flipmode wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> feronia28 wrote:The day I beat an illusionist in raid on the dps parse will be a freaking miracle. Better buffs, that's the trade off. It's like comparing apples with apples but one of the apples is a green apple and the other apple is red. <hr> </blockquote>If you are not parsing close to the illusionist, I assure you it is you that are doing something wrong.  With the same proc gear and the agi line, a coercer can put out nearly the same dps.  The only factor that gives Illusionists the edge is coercers are dependant on mobs procing our reactives.  Not all do at the same rate.<hr></blockquote>No way, our spell lineup is more utility.  I have never seen a coercer outparse an illusionist (that are of the same quality).  <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Well he didn't say outparse, he said get close.</P> <P>You really can't compare a MT Coercer with AA's spec'd for defensive/utility, vs an Illusionist in a casting heavy group with 2-3 other classes providing additional DPS stuff, and AA's spec'd for offensive...</P> <P>A coercer that has chosen the same AA's, and has the same group buffs, will do close to the same damage. Ours is more dependant on the creature landing hits, so it would probably take yellow and/or named encounters as well. But it's not unheard of to parse decently well.</P> <P> </P> <P>I myself end up parsing a good 200-400 more when I'm just moved into a group with caster buffs. That would only get multiplied higher if I had the Agi/Int lines spec'd.</P>

[Lleinen]

<P>I usually avg a parse of 800-1200 on raids, way outdoing the illusionist...</P> <P> </P> <P>but then again im AA buffed for DPS</P> <P> </P> <P>Avg 500-600 before</P>

[Anachronomicon]

<DIV>I'm spec'd for buffs and parse 500-700 a fight, I'm the MT coercer.  We have another coercer who is there for dps mods, and they parse a solid 800-1000, most of the time not being in a caster group.</DIV>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Anachronomicon wrote:<div>I'm spec'd for buffs and parse 500-700 a fight, I'm the MT coercer.  We have another coercer who is there for dps mods, and they parse a solid 800-1000, most of the time not being in a caster group.</div><hr></blockquote>Sorry I just don't believe that..unless your raid dps is over 25-30k then there's no way a coercer is going to parse 1000dps.<div></div>

[Tanatus]

Learn how to play coercer Crono lol - 1000DPS susteined not a big deal assuming that you are outside of MT group, speced in INT/AGI and have pleny damage proc gear (w/o Perpentuality, in MT group on single target I easy sustein 620-680DPS)