Freshly Betrayed Coercer seeks advice

[Ghu]

<DIV>Hey guys <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just betrayed to coercer. I'm lvl 65 and have my guild helping me get organized etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have most of my spells at adept 3 from lvl 57 on up and my gear is not terrible. So here are my questions:<BR></DIV> <DIV>1) Are there any lower lvl spells that I should be using? I know there are a few but I just don't want to missing out on something that would help my group/raid more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Is possession worth upgrading to adept 3? It seems like just a fluff spell atm. Does it serve a good perpose?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Is there a way to use amnesia that doesn't get you dead? Hehe, tried it a couple times this weekend and OUCH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Is charming viable in groups (I have addept 3 dominion atm)? I typically am in a small group setup. Tank and healer are always there and quite often a brigand. We add others but the four of us tend to group together most often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5) When I first betrayed I had about 6 people tell me that my sole role was to buff the group. One guildie told me in tells to get a good book and make sure I AFed the healer in group. Now I KNOW this is wrong but thought it was an interesting perspective on our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6) My main goal is to be the best coercer I can be. To be raid worthy and to be a good representative of our class. Are there any noob warnings I should know about? I am finding that, while many features of the illusionist are the same as coercer i.e. mezz, the play style and feel of coercer is much differant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7) Running some parses this weekend, my DPS seems in the toilet. I attribute this to still trying to figure out how to be a coercer but was wondering if there were any pointers some of you might be able to share <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your time and I look forward to any guidance you can give. I am very pleased with my betrayal so far. There is a definate rush when ya charm an add and turn a certain death into a good battle!!</DIV>

[UmanAsi]

im only a level 41, but i can tell you, the dps comes from reactives and your (despotic mind IE power % gone = helth gone).  and mezzing people in pvp is nice so you can turn a 4 on 4 fight into a 4 on 3 or a 4 on 2 pretty quickly.  for raiding, your encounter stun/dazes are king, with AOE mez to keep the DPS off your tank <div></div>

[FLLonewu]

<P>1) Enraging Demeanor (lvl 52) hate buff, Amnesia (lvl 55).  Some players like the fun illusion spells (ratonga or troll), and its useful to morph ur charmed pet so Tank doesn't target it by mistake, especially when fighting the same types of mobs, and easy to tell when charm breaks.</P> <P>2) Not really.  It has a few uses such as moving mobs out of the way or jumping them off cliffs, but nothing too useful.</P> <P>3) Again, not really.  Against epics use it to reset the encounter on a wipe in progress to save some of the raid (use a stun before hand so the mob is immune to the stun effect and be close to the mob so he can kill you and reset very fast before anyone else generates aggro).  On heroics, could use the short stun on it to pull it off a healer for the MT to grab it back or its usually the one the MT isn't on so just wipe it and mez it till MT can get to it.  Most typically I think its used to split encounters (I'lll let you figure out which its useful on) or to reset an add if there is an overpull or some noob gets knocked into an add</P> <P>4) Charming is VERY viable in groups, especially small groups like you describe.  Often you can charm a pet and send it to the MTs target and just focus on stuns, dazes and stifle the mob, throwing on ur reactives or DoTs between stuns for when the mob isn't stunned.  With proper timing of spells, you can prevent more damage than any healer class can ward or heal.</P> <P>5) Well those people obviosly never played the class or played with a good one to know what a difference they can make to a group.</P> <P>6) & 7)  If you looking to be DPS, Enchanter is the wrong class.  There are other threads about this.  Most of your non-pet damage is going to come from reactives, so if ur not doing alot of damage, the mob isn't either (or they're just poorly timed).  Most of the time its not worth charming on raids.  The typical spot for the Coercer is in the MT group or the scout DPS group where your conc slots are better used on buffs.  While your CC abilites effect epics, they last 1/3 the normal duration and the mob gains an immunity to the same effect for 3 times the normal duration, so use them sparingly.  Note on this--mixed groups including heroic and Epics this rule applies to the heroics as well, Epic encounters composed of all heroic mobs (like 8 heroic ^^^ mobs make an Epic encounter, this does not apply, full duration and no immunity)</P>

[Ghu]

<DIV>Awesome info! Thank you much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding number 7. I have no desire to be at the top of all the parses. When I said it was in the toilet though, I meant it was VERY low. Typically, Brigand was hitting 600ish, Monk was hitting 500ish, Inqui was hitting 150 and I was holding a strong 75...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is normal then I'm fine with it. I just don't want to be missing something and not doing my role <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pookie_Wizard]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Welcome to the "club"! Hmm, (IMO) this is what I think. Oh yeah a  little background, I'm 70 Coercer (from the ground up) and just started getting serious about the raid thing. Like most of our breathren, I do think we are one of the just plain "fun" classes and if played right kick-butt!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>1) Are there any lower lvl spells that I should be using? I know there are a few but I just don't want to missing out on something that would help my group/raid more.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Have to agree with previous post, and add that the illusion spells help your team mates out when you charm a pet. Put yourself in their shoes...kinda tough to tell what to target when the coercer in there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Might poke around at lower level Master Charm spells. The current view (imo) is that it's the duration that you will notice, but the spell "quality" is still there for higher lvls. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Is possession worth upgrading to adept 3? It seems like just a fluff spell atm. Does it serve a good perpose?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Complete waste of time if you ask  me. Very, very, very buggy spell. Lots of posts on this, but I suppose if you were researching your enemies you could glean some info. Most of the time this spell crashes on me and I end up dead :smileymad: However, could be fun if they fix eventually. My 1-cent is don't spend a lot of money on this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Is there a way to use amnesia that doesn't get you dead? Hehe, tried it a couple times this weekend and OUCH.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You hit the nail on the head! Use Amnesia=Death, but you might be able to save the day for a raid. It does have value for your team and if you plan to raid, they will expect you to have this spell and use it from time to time. So, my 1 cent is upgrade it if you plan to raid.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Is charming viable in groups (I have addept 3 dominion atm)? I typically am in a small group setup. Tank and healer are always there and quite often a brigand. We add others but the four of us tend to group together most often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Charming can ROCK in groups absolutely. Not only can you "remove" an enemy from a fight, you can add buttloads of dps if you get the right pet (lots of posts on this). However, you ABSOLUTELY have to get yourself a Master Charm spell (tons of posts on this). Suffice to say, if you are gonna charm... this one is worth selling the kids for :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Charming in Raids, you are probably not going to do this. They really want your buffs in most of the Raids I have been on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>5) When I first betrayed I had about 6 people tell me that my sole role was to buff the group. One guildie told me in tells to get a good book and make sure I AFed the healer in group. Now I KNOW this is wrong but thought it was an interesting perspective on our class.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Might be a grain of truth in what your guildie said for Raids. However, you bring some unique abilities to raids. Of course your buffs will be number 1 for your teammates, but your power management, stuns and mem wipes can make the differnece between a good Raid and a complete failure (seen any Healers with no mana :smileysurprised<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. BTW, try and get Impetus as high as possible (Master, etc). It's always funny to watch the folks argue over who is gonna get it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>When in non-raid groups, I usually go for pets. Afterall, this is what makes this class fun for me! Download yourself a parser and check out the dps of your team. I paste it in a seperate window for myself only. I kinda get tired of parsers in a group...another topic I guess. Anyway, check out dps with the right pet and you will see how much you bring to the fight.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6) My main goal is to be the best coercer I can be. To be raid worthy and to be a good representative of our class. Are there any noob warnings I should know about? I am finding that, while many features of the illusionist are the same as coercer i.e. mezz, the play style and feel of coercer is much differant.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Hmmm not much to say here, just to have fun on they way! I'm still trying to figure out certain things in raids. Not sure I would recommend Psychic Wail in a raid. I manage to pull aggro with that and well.... we all know what happens, eh? I may be timing it wrong too (who knows).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7) Running some parses this weekend, my DPS seems in the toilet. I attribute this to still trying to figure out how to be a coercer but was wondering if there were any pointers some of you might be able to share <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Yeah, have to agree with previous posts....we ain't never gonna be a real DPS class. I have "most" of the master spells and try as I might, I don't even come close in Raids.  But then again, this class (don't flame me) is really a utility class that is a ton of fun! If you want a DPS class then role another toon. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Still, I have had a great time with this toon, and hope you do also :smileyhappy:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Good luck!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Jede - 70 Coercer</FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Ghu]

<P>Thanks for the input Pookie_Wizard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <P>Just so you know, I have a lvl 70 wizard (about 30ish aa) and some raid gear. I got tired of trying to hit the parser. I typically ruled the biggest hit and come in 5th or 6th on parser. I'm not interested in mass DPS, just want to make sure I'm not slacking in what would be typical for our class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I rolled the illusionist because I wanted more versatility in what I could do. I betrayed for several reasons, guild needed a coercer, I had charm-envy, guild had three illusionists and I felt I could fill a differant role better.</P>

[JackAll]

<P>Amnesia is a very strong utility spell. Its one of the best spells in the book. </P> <P>You owe it to you self to learn what you can do with it.</P> <P> </P>

[Ghu]

<P>I actually got the chance to pop this bad boy out a couple times last night and it did wonders... and I LIVED!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[FLLonewu]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ghunn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Awesome info! Thank you much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding number 7. I have no desire to be at the top of all the parses. When I said it was in the toilet though, I meant it was VERY low. Typically, Brigand was hitting 600ish, Monk was hitting 500ish, Inqui was hitting 150 and I was holding a strong 75...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is normal then I'm fine with it. I just don't want to be missing something and not doing my role <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Remember many of you damage spells, and your biggest damage spell for that matter Auspex, are reactives and only go off when the mob does something, like use power or land a blow.  A brawler class as your tank, they survive by NOT getting hit, so you're reactives  are reduced in effectiveness.  On easy mobs though that you're not stunning and keeping neutralized, your DoTs, Stroke, Ego Torrent and Sonic Boom should still put you in the 250-300 range at least.  IF you're stunning and keeping the mob from doing anything, then yes your DPS will be sub 100.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From you're group set-up (Monk, Inquis, Coerc, Brigand), I'd probably go with a Pet (3 conc slots), mana regens Ease and Beholder's Eye always up, Signet of Enlightenment (1 conc slot), Enraging Demeanor on the Monk, and Harmonious link on the Brigand (1 conc slot) and tell him to go nuts.   The other viable option would be to drop the charm and use the conc slots for Impetus on the Monk and Brigand leaving 1 conc slot free for Harmonious Link on the Tank (yes, no deaggro effect but the proc still works and will bump up you DPS a touch) or Incitement for the increase power pool.  If the brigand isn't present, go with the charm and Imeptus on the Monk along with the normal buff set up of mana regens and Signet.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<P>1. Mana cloack thats all err add here Mind Bend (lvl 52) - reactive stun and Channel (lvl 55) - mana split</P> <P>2. No its not - possesion have single use on raiding, MUCH less usefull compare to Amnesia</P> <P>3. It wont you get you dead if you actually grouped with person who have ability to taunt </P> <P>4. With Adept 3 - answer would be no, get ANY level charm at M1 and answer would be yes</P> <P>5. Who ever said idiot, if you are within group your sole role is DPS, super DPS I'd say - NOONE can come even close then you have proper pet (M1 of course is requied), during raid its different situation - yes you are buffer - namely hate manipulator and power manipulator but you STILL DPS class always bear that in mind</P> <P>6. Dont use mez .... ever unless you in Nizara or farming heroic named solo, ALWAYS use charm (as long as you have M1) IF you have ANY charmable mobs (except blobs in Labs). Bear in mind Charmed pet >>>>>>> X3 Impetus DPS wise. ALWAYS cast on MT Enraging Demeanor (it dont take conc so USE IT), try keep Emphatic Aura up, On pulls de-agro your templar with TOE, always de-agro you pet with TOE... Use Mana flow not in time then someone in group got to zero power but as soon as you have Mana Flow up (wont hurt your mana pool). Keep 3 cracks all the time (Beholder Eye, Gogring Toughts and Ease). Keep coercers dispatch always active on mobs. Use stuns a lot, love em - they are main form of CC that coercers use</P> <P>7. Right AA, right gear, right attack sequence will help ya with that</P>

[Vydian]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div></div> <p>6. Dont use mez .... ever  </p><hr></blockquote>           I certainly hope that since the OP is a 65 Illusionist that he knows better than to listen to this nonsense...<div></div>

[Tanatus]

And here advice from lvl 70/50 oldest coercer on this board and Nektulos ... so go figure...

[Vydian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div></div>And here advice from lvl 70/50 oldest coercer on this board and Nektulos ... so go figure...<hr></blockquote> Which makes the fact that you think this way even more bewildering....My advice? Don't ignore ANY aspect of any class, especially from people that love to throw credentials around like it means something. People that know the power of CC undestand this anyway. I'm just trying to help the people that may not know completely overlook a very useful ability to us just because someone says so.... Incredibly rediculous</div>

[Outerspace]

It's all about your style of play. Tanatus is sort of right, in my opinion. Some people like the security of having all the mobs locked down for a slow but sure kill, and some don't. I think it's a nice tool to have just in case when you're in a group you become overwhelmed with mobs from a bad pull or whatever. Usually in that case I will charm one, mez one, and kill the rest. That is about the extent of the crowd control I ever needed to do. With a competent tank and healer you probably don't even need to do that.Groups I have been in don't usually like it when I mez, but they LOVE it when I stun. So obviously I mez all the time just to pis... erm I mean I stun all the time I keep them happy so they can do their AE's and so on and keep DPS off the tank.For soloing heroic groups or heroic singles, or nameds, mez is your friend though and you wont be able to solo some mobs without it.<div></div>

[nscragg]

<P>DPS Class or Not?  With my 50 AA's spec'd, I'm more in line with other mid-tier DPS classes.  Raiding, Im in the 700-800 DPS range (thanks to some adjustments) which puts me in the Bard range of DPS.  Considering the other things I bring to the raid, I feel pretty useful.  If you wanna drop your dirge's dps down below you, don't buff him/her <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Outerspace]

Depends what build you take. The INT like actually makes a decent difference.<div></div>

[Gutmonger]

3= Yes charming is a hudge add with the right pet to any group but only at master level.

[Ghu]

<P>Hey folks, thought I'd toss in a quick update. I have been lvl 70 and building AA for a week or so now. I managed to pick up a master dominate (no dominion yet!! *pout*) but Dominate rocks in and of itself.</P> <P>I am loving the class and what we can do. I find myself very useful in MT groups on raids, in regular guild groups and pick-up groups. </P> <P>I love charming mobs and wreaking havoc. It's awesome to actually feel like you make a differance in what you are doing.</P>