Charm adept1 vs Master1 testing

[pikeymoose]

<DIV>I have to say all the talk about master1 being the bomb doesn't jive with low level testing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I met a coercer the exact level inside fallen gate.  We went outside to test.  We were both lv29 at the time using the lv20 charm.  He had master1 I had adept1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We charmed the same mobs 2 giants 26^^^ outside fallen gate.  SO everything was the same.  Pets fought eachother with no buffs.  At one point my adept1 was ahead, by the end of the fight he had mine killed with 12% health on the master1 pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So this hardly seems as game breaking as previous posts.  We had 4 fights in total and the outcome was allways the same...meaning he barely won the fights.   Seeing that we had the same everything in this test it was a pure adept1 vs master1 effect.   So what is this i hear about an adept1 being a 1 vs a 3 for adept3 and a 9 for master1??  There is no way in hell that that master1 was 9 times as much dps in my testing...not even 2 times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What gives experts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Capp 34 Coercer...since sony trashed my 70 troubador moose(gimped tune)</DIV>

[Alaeth]

Your results are due to your pet choice. Only pet spell/CA damage scales with charm quality, not pet autoattack damage, so if you choose pets that deal most of their damage through autoattack, you will see very little difference between pets charmed with different-quality spells. Repeat your test on pets that nuke frequently or have high-damage CAs (at your level, virtually any priest- or mage-type pet will work for this), and you will see a significant difference between one charmed with an Adept I spell and one charmed with a Master I spell.

[Outerspace]

Melee pets are all crap even at Master 1. One or two exceptions are found but in general don't bother. At level 34 try some of the Tae Ew menders in Feerott. Duel with those and see who wins. Depends on the script of course, but yours will nuke for about 500 and your friends with master will nuke for about 1500. That's the difference <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Nupr]

<P>I would imagine that if you charm a pet with a Master charm then it would use it's abilities at Master, just like other pets.  So look at a warlocks spells at adept 1 quality and at master 1 quality and you'll pretty much see the difference.  I think people tend to make a bigger deal of it then it really is but there is a noticeable difference depending on the pet.</P> <P>My adept 3 pet in the Gnillaw fight still managed to kick out 1000 DPS so I'm content.  If a Master comes my way I'd definitely scoop it up though</P>

[Outerspace]

Not sure how it works, but I was also sceptical about Master being so much better - until I got it. And really, when people say the mobs nuke for 3 times as much as Adept 3,  that is a pretty accurate statement. Healer mobs heal much more too. If you manage to find the master you will have a big grin on your face when you start testing pets, I assure you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Take an example, my corpse candles (lvl 67) do a nuke called Soul Blister that hits for 6-8k every few seconds. What do yours nuke for?<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>Back when I was tooling around DoF, I tested my newly acquired Dominate spell (lvl 47) at app 1, vs my Beguile master 1.</P> <P>I first charmed a ghoul with the App 1 Dominate. He nuked for ~70. I charmed him again with Master 1 Beguile. He nuked for ~2100.</P> <P> </P> <P>- What it looks like, is that App 2 is the base line.<BR>- Then Adept 1 is 3 times that (so the 75 at app2 would turn into 225 or so). This follows my experience pretty well when I scribed the adept 1 Dominate.<BR>- Then Adept 3 is about 3 times stronger than adept 1, hitting closer to 700. This also sounds about right... I got adept 3 Dominate made just to see if it would hold longer than Beguile, and this is the damage I saw on the same mob.<BR>- Then Master 1 is about 3 times stronger than Adept 3, landing around 2100 damage. This is what I saw consistantly.</P> <P>So it kinda looks like this (for spell arts):</P> <P>Master I -- x3 Adept III -- x9 Adept I -- x27 App 2</P> <P>The ones in between will be somewhere in between those figures (app 1 is probably around x30, app 3 is around x21, and app 4 is around x15 or so). This part is just my guess.. haven't personally tried all the combinations.</P> <P> </P>

[Roriondesexiest]

you're right, buy the adept 1 and leave the masters...

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<P>So it kinda looks like this (for spell arts):</P><P>Master I -- x3 Adept III -- x9 Adept I -- x27 App 2</P><hr></blockquote>Sorry but these numbers are way off the mark. Someone in this thread already said the right way to look at it: Apprentice II charmed NPC's use Apprentice II-quality spells, Master I charmed NPC's use Master I-quality spells, etc.

[Alaeth]

<blockquote><hr>Jooneau wrote:<blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<div></div><p>So it kinda looks like this (for spell arts):</p><p>Master I -- x3 Adept III -- x9 Adept I -- x27 App 2</p><hr></blockquote>Sorry but these numbers are way off the mark. Someone in this thread already said the right way to look at it: Apprentice II charmed NPC's use Apprentice II-quality spells, Master I charmed NPC's use Master I-quality spells, etc.<hr></blockquote>This is, quite simply, not true--not to mention easy to disprove. Quoting from a post I made a while back:<blockquote><hr>That's not exactly true, actually (re: the master-charmed pets getting master spells), based on the data I've gathered. Pets use the very base spells in whichever lines they cast (so a 70 PC Fury, for example, would be casting Greater Bloodflow and Tempest, but a charmed 70 Fury mob will cast Regrowth and Twirl), just scaled up to appropriate levels. Charming affects this scaling based on your charm level, and it isn't uniform between spell lines, classes, or spell types.Debuffs scale very poorly for both level and charm quality, to the point where a PC Defiler's T3 attack speed/DPS debuff at master quality is stronger than a master-charmed 60+ Defiler mob's. Heals, in general, scale disproportionately well, to the point where--again using the example of a Fury--a master-charmed Fury mob's heals restore nearly triple the health of a same-level PC Fury's master heals. Wards, interestingly, don't seem to scale as well as actual heals of any type--whether HoT, reactive heal, or direct heal. Damage spells vary extremely widely between mob types, it seems, with druid and paladin nukes scaling particularly well. Certain spell lines also seem to scale especially well, including, amusingly enough, Coercer mobs' Mind Jolt, which I've seen land for over 2400 damage--rather higher than I can get with master Stroke.I'm actually working on assembling a list of which spell lines and mob classes scale especially well or poorly, but it's slow going, especially since it's only possible to get exact numbers for DoTs, HoTs, and debuffs, since straight heals and nukes don't show up in the effects window. Still, it's enough information to solidly show that charmed mob spell scaling operates under significantly different rules than PC spells follow.<hr></blockquote>

[Outerspace]

Numbers are fairly accurate.- Adept 3 charmed lvl 50^ sinister ghoul in Sinking Sands nukes about 500-700- Master 1 charmed lvl 50^ sinister ghoul in Sinking Sands nukes about 1600-2000None of my Master spells give me that kind of upgrade on Adept 3. Usually it's about 10-15% more damage, not 250-300% more.<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>It's definately a bigger increase than regular "player" spell damage increases, that much is for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just did an extensive testing to see what exactly the increases were to upgrading Charm. It's not a huge a leap as I first assumed, however it is still massive compared to other increases. Here's my data.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Master I</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/MasterI.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>So we assume Master 1 is baseline (x1).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adept III</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/AdeptIII.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>Master 1 is ~2.9 times as powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adept I</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/AdeptI.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Master 1 is ~5.21 times as powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Apprentice IV</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/ApprenticeIV.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Master 1 is ~6.86 times as powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV>Apprentice III</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/ApprenticeIII.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Master 1 is ~8.75 times as powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV>Apprentice II</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/ApprenticeII.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>Master 1 is ~9.95 times as powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apprentice I</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/ApprenticeI.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>Master 1 is ~11.66 times as powerful</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So a revised chart could look something like:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Master I </FONT> =   <STRONG>x3</STRONG> <FONT color=#ffcc00>Adept III </FONT> =   <STRONG>x5</STRONG> <FONT color=#ff9900>Adept I </FONT> =   <STRONG>x7</STRONG><FONT color=#ff6600> App IV</FONT>  =   <STRONG>x8.5</STRONG> <FONT color=#ff3300>App III </FONT> =   <STRONG>x10</STRONG> <FONT color=#ff0000>App II  </FONT>=<FONT color=#ff0000>   </FONT><STRONG>x11.5</STRONG> <FONT color=#cc0000>App I</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, smaller increase at the lower tier (about 1.5 diff between each), but then greater jumps the higher tiers. I could just imagine a Master 2 version (3x master 1? same pet doing 15k? That would be why we don't get it as an option)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This was surprisingly quick to figure out, btw. I already had a Master 1 Beguile, Adept 3 Dominate, and Adept 1 Domination. All I had to do was grab the App 2, 3, and 4 of Coerce and go test, then upgrade, then test, etc. All these tests were done with a 66 mob vs a 67 heroic mob. They were all done with no other buffs to Int (for the pet to cast higher), and I didn't add any of my own debuffs or anything (normally I can reach a highest hit of around 7.5k on master, higher if critted).</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>For those out there getting ready to whine nerf, note the DPS on the Master 1. That's right, lower than 500 DPS. That's pretty much with constant use (practically no time for my spells), in the best of situations, using one of the most powerful mob choices. That's hardly wizard DPS here, and definately NOT the reason we are the best soloers (I could solo just as easily with App 1 charm, it just took me longer).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh...</DIV> <DIV>For comparison's sake, here's how my single target DD + interupt (Stroke) spell looks like from App 2 right up to Master 1 (I just used eq2linky to get the info in game).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Master 1</FONT> = <FONT color=#ff0000>534</FONT> (base)<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Adept 3</FONT> = <FONT color=#ff0000>467</FONT> (<STRONG>x1.14</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Adept 1</FONT> = <FONT color=#ff0000>400</FONT> (<STRONG>x1.33</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>App 4</FONT> =<FONT color=#ff0000> 350.5</FONT> (<STRONG>x1.52</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>App 3</FONT> = <FONT color=#ff0000>334</FONT> (<STRONG>x1.60</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>App 2</FONT> = <FONT color=#ff0000>316.5</FONT> (<STRONG>x1.69</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now Stroke isn't one of those hugely increasing damage spells to begin with (some spells advance more than others, since they are pure damage vs this one's interupt and speed casting being a factor), but for the most part you'll only ever see a x2 factor from app1 to master.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now.. what I'd like to see is how the other pets for other classes scale in comparison to charm. I'm willing to bet that everyone's pets scale a lot more like Charm than Stroke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Edit*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just for completeness, I decided to look up the actual Soul Blister stats, App2 to Master, and I ended up with the exact same spread as I had with Stroke. So the exact same spell, used by an NPC, has a much larger increase with our Master. Which makes sense, since they are fairly inefficient combatants, and have access to about 5% (or less) of the spells that the actual class uses. Most mages spam their spells for dps, not waste 50%+ of their time meleeing.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>08-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 AM</span>

[Outerspace]

Yep, good point regarding the overall DPS. It's not imbalanced and in no way does it need to be nerfed. But corpse candles are perfect for root and shoot because of their high burst damage. The pet is weak in every other respect, like all coercer pets are, and you can't just send it in on a triple up mob and expect to win. It still requires some coercing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[spabby]

Heres a question. How does adept 3  "Dominate" (level 47) compare against Master I "Beguile" (level 33). I can't get hold of a M1 Dominate anywhere on Splitpaw server.<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> spabby wrote:<BR>Heres a question. How does adept 3  "Dominate" (level 47) compare against Master I "Beguile" (level 33). I can't get hold of a M1 Dominate anywhere on Splitpaw server.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Those are the spells I specifically used... I'll recap the appropriate parts of my post.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> I wrote:<BR> <DIV>Master I</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/MasterI.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>So we assume Master 1 is baseline (x1).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adept III</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/raidisovinfaile/Master%20Charm/AdeptIII.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>Master 1 is ~2.9 times as powerful.</DIV> <P>...<BR><BR>I already had a Master 1 Beguile, Adept 3 Dominate<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The master 1 Beguile is nearly 3 times better than Adept 3 Dominate. And really, it doesn't matter what Master 1 vs Adept 3, it's always the same. The only thing that changes is the duration.</P>

[spabby]

Thank you, I didn't realise you had used those exact spells. So I am going to put out almost 3x the damage using the M1 Beguile but will have to recharm the pet more often. Thanks again.<div></div>

[pikeymoose]

<P>Thanks for the answers...it seems I was a bit forgetful with the mele vs casting charmed mob.  We used mele mobs.  I am good to go now armed with this info.</P> <P> </P> <P>Cap (38 coercer)</P>

[Triple Black]

<DIV>Now, I am still brand new to the charming ranks, only level 18.  Until last night I had been using the level 10 Charm at app III only.  I have been following this discussion and asked in my guild what I need to get at least and Adept 3 charm.  All I needed to do was supply the rough coral.  Until I got the AD3 last night I was working on the attack/back off to get my casting mobs to use their spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wrote down their level and the damage their spell was doing.  Last night I went and found a priest mob in the Commanlands and the two of us just layed waste to orcs left and right.  I noticed at time between 15 to 25 points of damage difference on their spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the thread, it really helped me out last night knowing what I was looking for.</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>A small note about the first two charms (Befriend and Charm), they have a level limit on what you can charm.</P> <P>Everything higher, Coerce/Beguile/Dominate/Domination, they all can charm any level of creatures, and the only difference is duration (10, 15, 20, 30 minutes respectively).</P> <P>Something to keep in mind regarding upgrading.</P>

[Magic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P>A small note about the first two charms (Befriend and Charm), they have a level limit on what you can charm.</P> <P>Everything higher, Coerce/Beguile/Dominate/Domination, they all can charm any level of creatures, and the only difference is duration (10, 15, 20, 30 minutes respectively).</P> <P>Something to keep in mind regarding upgrading.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh!  Really!  Do tell!!!  What are the level limits on these two spells?  Thanks in advance.</P> <P>I am at level 11 and using Charm at adept 1 quality.  I've been able to charm a level 14 ^ ^ ^ heroic, which is orange to me.  My subjugation is around 4 points below the cap and my charm success rate is roughly 50% on that mob.  When charm breaks, I'm dead in 2 hits, and it always breaks in battle before the 8 minute time limit.  Ouchies!<BR></P>

[Triple Black]

<DIV>Always be prepared with Fascinate to mez the charmed mob.  When I am soloing I rarely use it except when recharming a possible break.</DIV>

[Outerspace]

One point to note is that it's really not worth charming triple up mobs. There are exceptions, as ever, and it can be useful in a situation where your group has pulled the whole zone and you need to take mobs out of the fight. The reason it's not worth it is that they get normalised to solo mobs when they are charmed. They don't hit any harder than non heroics, but they do have a larger power pool and very slightly more hitpoints than a normal solo mob. When a triple up breaks charm and resists your mez, then often you're back at the res tent, so it's better to find a soloable version <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Magic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Outerspace wrote:<BR>One point to note is that it's really not worth charming triple up mobs. There are exceptions, as ever, and it can be useful in a situation where your group has pulled the whole zone and you need to take mobs out of the fight. <BR><BR>The reason it's not worth it is that they get normalised to solo mobs when they are charmed. They don't hit any harder than non heroics, but they do have a larger power pool and very slightly more hitpoints than a normal solo mob. When a triple up breaks charm and resists your mez, then often you're back at the res tent, so it's better to find a soloable version <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I've come to the same conclusion last night at level 11.  I charmed a 16 ^^^ heroic orc warrior and sent it after a 15 ^^ heroic orc prophet.  The warrior died too quickly and the prophet had around 75% HP at the end.  I saw the rez tent quite soon afterward.  I'll keep this in mind when I decide what to charm to kill my desired target.  A 14 ^^^ heroic orc warrior works well against a 10 orc pawn (no arrows, not heroic).  I can see why it works now.  My pet was a 14 orc against a 10 orc.  Makes sense.

[Outerspace]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aljola wrote:<div></div><blockquote>I've come to the same conclusion last night at level 11.  I charmed a 16 ^^^ heroic orc warrior and sent it after a 15 ^^ heroic orc prophet.  The warrior died too quickly and the prophet had around 75% HP at the end.  I saw the rez tent quite soon afterward.  I'll keep this in mind when I decide what to charm to kill my desired target.  A 14 ^^^ heroic orc warrior works well against a 10 orc pawn (no arrows, not heroic).  I can see why it works now.  My pet was a 14 orc against a 10 orc.  Makes sense.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Yep, exactly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If you'd picked up the level 15^^ prophet you probably would have had much more success fighting the 16^^^ warrior than the other way around (assuming prophets are healer mobs). Melee pets like "warrior" variants are always crap - healer mobs make the best tanks and can nuke/debuff a bit too.</div>

[xpraetorianx]

<DIV>If your in Feerrott right now, Tae Ew Warders are also good damage, plus they heal themselves nicely.</DIV>

[Magic]

Oh!  Thanks for the juicy tidbits!  I had forgotten that charm quality doesn't affect melee (auto-attacks).  Silly me to charm the wrong one!  I'll go try this out tonight.  It's going to be a long day at work.  :smileysad:

[Randell44]

<div></div>They really need to help melee mobs be useful to a coercer.  Being stuck with priest or mage pets is kinda crappy IMO.Sometimes I feel like having a melee or tanker pet and it shouldn't suck just because it's melee or a tanker  :/.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Randell44 on <span class=date_text>08-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:57 AM</span>

[Outerspace]

Gylton is a pretty good tank pet<div></div>

[Tanatus]

Randel lol do you ever had a brigand pet or zerker pet? if not .... try one day  and you might find that mages/priest pets no where near DPS wise to rogue/zerk pets

[Gutmonger]

Yes Spells and Ability scale with the quality of the charm. Melee pets still suck though... They never do good dmg with auto attack even when dps buffed and they always use abilitys less. Caster pets do much higher dmg and alot of it is because they use spells alot more then melee pets <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The difference is very noticable 40+ in areas like CT. ^^^ pets are key and the pets available 40++ are a tad more nasty. Having a master charm is also key. Later one while you grind and on some raids it is expected that a Coercer will use charm. Adept charm on a ^^^ nasty is very risky. Having Master is more dmg and more saftey for you and your friends. Embarasing if your pet kills you and causes mass group death LOL!

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

At the higher levels, zerker and brigand pets use some sick sick damage abilities, and use them quite often. Love those dots for 7k each, lol.

[Gutmonger]

While Warders are nice in CT the nukers are better. All you have to do is root and send your pet in for a nuke ever 6 seconds. Makes pretty easy solo work of ^^^.