Which is more group friendly, coercer or illusionist?

[whytakemine]

I have a 56 illusionist I'm going to betray to coercer.  My problem is deciding when to do it.  I like the fast casting mezz illusionists have, and the group buffs are pretty good, so I'm wondering if I should stay illusionist until I'm almost 70, or if I should betray now.Note that losing my masters/adept III's are not an issue.  I'm just going to buy adept III's until I betray, and mage rare stones are so cheap compared to spongy's I feel like they're almost free. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So, do you think coercer's bring as much to a group as illusionists?  Is the difference small enough that I might as well betray now?  My focus is getting xp asap.<div></div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Let me ask you this who you think more group friendly berserker or guardian? ... pretty much same goes for coercer vs. illusionist (where coercer = zerker, guardian = illusionist)</DIV> <DIV>First of all mez spells have same casting time for coercer and illi, the only difference is coecer have 1 mez less then illi - trade off coercer have BETTER mez - aka coercer mez is unstopable and can be casted in any condition of coercer (except of death or FD of course lol). Coercer also have superior stuns over illusionist but illi have better stifles. Coercer have superior crack and overall mana manipulation vs illusionist have better overall DPS. Coercer superior in hate manipulation. Imo coercer is one of few classes that unfortunate is "A must have" for raid - no coercer = no serious raid (not because of crack lol, because of hate management mostly)</DIV> <DIV>Coercer definitely much more solo friendly then illusionist because of charm but catch is you MUST have M1 charm</DIV>

[Fizwi]

The mana management line is much more blurry after an Illusionist gets Savante.  I wouldn't say it's better than Channel/Mind's Eye, but I don't think Coercers have as clear a mana regen edge as they used to.As far as coercer mez being better...well that's a matter of opinion.  I would MUCH rather have a mez I can cast while running than one that can be cast through stun or stifle.  But that's a matter of preference -- again, no clear "best" here (although the illu does have a second mez).As far as raiding, yes, a coercer is highly sought after.  However -- after the first coercer (for the MT group), they really aren't needed at all.  A well-geared, specced illu can better fill a generic DPS spot.Anyway, I'd keep with what you know for a few more levels.  I would NOT wait til 70 to betray, however; you still have a lot of relearning to do to be optimal!<div></div>

[110euph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Coercer definitely much more solo friendly then illusionist because of charm but catch is you MUST have M1 charm</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I was a 63 Illusionist on the Unrest server (named Mezmyr) and, in a fit of euphoria over the whole ability to Charm, I betrayed.  8 hour long quest.... easy enough, just time consuming.  I was so excited about being able to charm mobs that I didn't think things through like you have.  I betrayed to Freeport with nothing but the robe on my back and 124 gold pieces in my pocket.  When I got to Freeport I found I had earned another 150 gold from consignments, so I started life as a 63 coercer with less than three plat to my name.</P> <P>And I'm frustrated as hell.</P> <P>Because I don't have, nor can I find, a M1 charm.  Nowhere.  I look every time I log.  I'm using an adept 1, but I'm still new at the class... feels like I bought the toon on Ebay and have no idea how to play it or what spells to cast when.  I'm reading a lot of posts on this board, and y'all are helping me quite a bit, but everyone seems to say the same thing: you must have a M1 charm.</P> <P>I'm not certain, because of some recient nerfs to all enchanters, but I thought my Illus. had a single target 10 second stun and a group 4 second stun... Coercer seems to have (and again, my spell quality is Teh Suck) one 7.5 second stun and a group 2.5 second stun.  Coercer DOES have some really, REALLY nice debuffs.  I can totally MESS UP a mob's resists to my spells, even with my Teh Suck spell quality, and buff hate gain and DPS really well too, but my Illus Pet used to nuke for 500 frequently and it would even taunt.  I'm spending a lot at the mender's shack because I'm still learning the class.</P> <P><U><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#ff3300>NOT saying that coercer is worse than Illusionist</FONT></EM></STRONG></U>, I'm saying I was a very well practiced Illusionist who suddenly became a newbie coercer and I'm hella frustrated.  But I'm working on it, drinking milk, growing strong bones and muscles, and one day, Mr. Corpse Candle, I'll make you my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Awwww yeah....</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Bud ability to solo efficient for coercer relay on charm .... Rule of the tob DPS of pet depend on quality of charm Adept 1: Adept 3: Master 1 relay as 1:3:9 aka Mastercharmed pet is produce 9X more DPS then Adept 1....</P> <P>Bear in mind M1 of lvl20 charms is BETTER then Adept 3 of lvl 61 charm ....</P> <P>Next thing you need to get - master 1 root and master 1 single target mez - once you got that - you all set to farm every single named in game that is not epic </P> <P>You wont enjoy this class untill you gasp concept - Charm for solo is EVERYTHING it mean much more then Master quatility of pets for summoners</P>

[110euph]

=)  Still lookin for it.  I'll find it some day.  It will be mine.... oh yes... it will be mine...

[zormik]

<P>the master1 charm might be better then the domination ad3.</P> <P>Only problem is you won't be able to charm T4/5/6 mobs with your M1 charm.<BR>At least i coulnd't use my ad3 charm against T4 mobs...</P>

[Mordion89]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 110euph wrote: <P>I'm not certain, because of some recient nerfs to all enchanters, but I thought my Illus. had a single target 10 second stun and a group 4 second stun... Coercer seems to have (and again, my spell quality is Teh Suck) one 7.5 second stun and a group 2.5 second stun. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yes, it is due to LU24 that caused our single target stun's duration to be reduced (illusionists' too), but coercer still have more stuns than illusionists prior to LU24 and post-LU24, illusionists are better at stifle and mez though.</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>zormik wrote:<P>the master1 charm might be better then the domination ad3.</P><P>Only problem is you won't be able to charm T4/5/6 mobs with your M1 charm.<BR>At least i coulnd't use my ad3 charm against T4 mobs...</P><hr></blockquote>Yes you can charm higher level mobs with lower level charms. You just lose out on the mez that occurs when it breaks.

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zormik wrote:<BR> <P>the master1 charm might be better then the domination ad3.</P> <P>Only problem is you won't be able to charm T4/5/6 mobs with your M1 charm.<BR>At least i coulnd't use my ad3 charm against T4 mobs...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yes you can charm higher level mobs with lower level charms. You just lose out on the mez that occurs when it breaks.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFE yet again....</P> <P>Lvl 10 charm M1 beats out Lvl 61 charm AD3...</P>

[Triple Black]

<DIV>Ballpark price for Master Charm?  I am newer player and everything i have read here and spoken with, ArticZero, says I need to Master Charm first.  I know they vary from server to server, I am just curious.</DIV>

[Roriondesexiest]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Triple Black wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ballpark price for Master Charm?  I am newer player and everything i have read here and spoken with, ArticZero, says I need to Master Charm first.  I know they vary from server to server, I am just curious.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Depends on server.  I bought lvl 47 dominate for 2.5 or 3.5 plat.  Saw one for sale the other day for 5 plat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bought lvl 33 beguile for 1.5 or 2 plat, can't quite remember.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Know people on other servers who swear they have never seen M1 charm for sale on their server.</DIV>

[Pilni]

lol looks like im the only lucky one here, i got Domination Master I for 5 plat <span>:smileyhappy:</span> And i have to say, it really pays off to have it <span>:smileytongue:</span>As of playing a Coercer for some months now i can very much say they are better then a illusionist at everything almost. Coercers can solo almost every mob in the game / instanced zone. Aslong as you know what you are doing you can achieve so much with this class ( as i have myself )In groups, we give crack, dps mods, hate gain, and so much more, imo we are more group friendly then illu's. After some time after they introduced the new betrayal to the game i have never seen a Coercer go to Illusionist. Duuuh !?! you see a point here? <span>:smileyvery-happy:No offense Illu's but SOE needs to give ya'll some new toys <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div>

[Triple Black]

<DIV>As I am just starting out as a coercer, level 13, I have seen the times I can shine and I have seen the times where I wanted to pull my hair out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped for the first the last night and had a blast.  We were taking down mobs yellow and organge to use and i was able to use Daunting gaze quite efficiently.  The two zerkers in the groups loves having the mob stunned.  We almost didn't need the healer in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't wait to learn more about the class.</DIV>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>dalessit wrote:<div>Depends on server.  I bought lvl 47 dominate for 2.5 or 3.5 plat.  Saw one for sale the other day for 5 plat.</div> <div> </div> <div>Bought lvl 33 beguile for 1.5 or 2 plat, can't quite remember.</div> <div> </div> <div>Know people on other servers who swear they have never seen M1 charm for sale on their server.</div><hr></blockquote>I got my Domination for 15pI got my Dominate for 1.5pI got a Dominate for 2.5p and resold it for 5p <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.All on LDL.</div>

[Tanatus]

<P>Payed for Domination m1 way back in time about 21pp - worthed every penny</P> <P>Got Dominate M1 for 50gp or so ... (that was before LU16.... got that spell for collectors purpose.... in that time) then bought 2 more for like 1.5 and 3pp - resold both for 10pp</P>

[Dravendar]

<div></div>Having played an illusionist for 70 lvls and then betraying to coercer....I suppose I can throw my 9pp in.Considering that the OP is more group oriented, I would say STAY ILLUSIONIST!!!With the right AA, having a 0.4 second cast time mez and (I forget exactly) a 0.9 second cast time AE stun makes a WORLD of difference.  Remember that this is in contrast to a coercer who (while having similar tools) nowhere near comes close to having the same cast times.  I was the DADDY of crowd control as an illusionist because I could react faster and execute crowd control before people can finish thinking 'oh crap'.  As a coercer, I'm no longer the daddy but only the uncle that can get the job done.  When it comes to raids though...I'm the new Daddy!  

[Crono1321]

Yeah I like that comparison....coercer is definately more needed on raids, but illusionist is definately better at snap reactions (if the player can even handle them that is).  Although I would disagree with taking an illus. over 2nd coercer.  A coercer can go in the melee group and provide superior regen, as well as +74% dps to all of those little fighters/scouts.  We can also use empathic link on anyone in the raid to lower threat by 23%, where an illusionist relies on the luck of proc'ing synergism to lower aggro. You can put enraging demeanor on your backup tank.   Charm is ______________________by far__________________________ superior to a personae duplicate.  Being able to clear entire rooms of mobs (any level) in minutes solo or duo has helped questing immensly.   <div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Yes a coercer is definately a must-have at a raid. But after the first one, it doesnt REALLY matter anymore as to which enchanter u use. The only determining factor there becomes what other classes u have at the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - bruisers, brigands, and assassins can self buff DPS pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high. For those classes, an illu would be better in the group cuz of the haste buff, whereas the coercer's DPS buff would be wasted. Yes the coercer could cast harmonious link on the brigand, but then again so could the one in the MT group. BUT, for monks, swashys and rangers, its the other way around. They can at least come close to cap on haste, but they really really could use the DPS buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good Illusionist group would be: Troubador, Inquisitor, Bruiser, Assassin, Brigand</DIV> <DIV>A good Coercer gorup would be: Dirge, Inquisitor, Monk, Ranger, Swashbuckler</DIV> <DIV>Of course there are 500 other combinations that work and can even be better, but in groups like these switching the type of enchanter class placed there would drop their usefulness. So it really all depends on which one of the two classes you can get the most out of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The illusionist also gets one other perk though.....if they are used as a channel for buffs instead of being the person buffing, they can get pretty high DPS numbers without [Removed for Content] anyone off =) Well, noone except the rangers and wizzies that arent able to beat them on the parse hehe.</DIV>

[zormik]

<P>Well really weird then that i can't use my charm on a mob that is way higher...</P> <P>I just passed upon a M1 charm because of this...</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>zormik wrote:<P>Well really weird then that i can't use my charm on a mob that is way higher...</P><P>I just passed upon a M1 charm because of this...</P><hr></blockquote>But you can use it just fine on higher level mobs ....

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div>Yes a coercer is definately a must-have at a raid. But after the first one, it doesnt REALLY matter anymore as to which enchanter u use. The only determining factor there becomes what other classes u have at the raid.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>For example - bruisers, brigands, and assassins can self buff DPS pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high. For those classes, an illu would be better in the group cuz of the haste buff, whereas the coercer's DPS buff would be wasted. Yes the coercer could cast harmonious link on the brigand, but then again so could the one in the MT group. BUT, for monks, swashys and rangers, its the other way around. They can at least come close to cap on haste, but they really really could use the DPS buff.</div> <div> </div> <div>A good Illusionist group would be: Troubador, Inquisitor, Bruiser, Assassin, Brigand</div> <div>A good Coercer gorup would be: Dirge, Inquisitor, Monk, Ranger, Swashbuckler</div> <div>Of course there are 500 other combinations that work and can even be better, but in groups like these switching the type of enchanter class placed there would drop their usefulness. So it really all depends on which one of the two classes you can get the most out of.</div> <div> </div> <div>The illusionist also gets one other perk though.....if they are used as a channel for buffs instead of being the person buffing, they can get pretty high DPS numbers without [Removed for Content] anyone off =) Well, noone except the rangers and wizzies that arent able to beat them on the parse hehe.</div><hr></blockquote>I think the highest of those self buffers would be assassin at 66%, in which case a dirge would still be better for more melee buffs and adding another 25% dps or w/e they give.  Troubador = mage group.<div></div>

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes a coercer is definately a must-have at a raid. But after the first one, it doesnt REALLY matter anymore as to which enchanter u use. The only determining factor there becomes what other classes u have at the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - bruisers, brigands, and assassins can self buff DPS pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high. For those classes, an illu would be better in the group cuz of the haste buff, whereas the coercer's DPS buff would be wasted. Yes the coercer could cast harmonious link on the brigand, but then again so could the one in the MT group. BUT, for monks, swashys and rangers, its the other way around. They can at least come close to cap on haste, but they really really could use the DPS buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good Illusionist group would be: Troubador, Inquisitor, Bruiser, Assassin, Brigand</DIV> <DIV>A good Coercer gorup would be: Dirge, Inquisitor, Monk, Ranger, Swashbuckler</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3333>Of course there are 500 other combinations that work and can even be better, but in groups like these switching the type of enchanter class placed there would drop their usefulness. So it really all depends on which one of the two classes you can get the most out of.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The illusionist also gets one other perk though.....if they are used as a channel for buffs instead of being the person buffing, they can get pretty high DPS numbers without [Removed for Content] anyone off =) Well, noone except the rangers and wizzies that arent able to beat them on the parse hehe.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think the highest of those self buffers would be assassin at 66%, in which case a dirge would still be better for more melee buffs and adding another 25% dps or w/e they give.  Troubador = mage group.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Read the bold red text.</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh and btw, the highest would be brigand not assassin, at 89%.</P><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 PM</span>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div></div> <div></div>  <p>Oh and btw, the highest would be brigand not assassin, at 89%.</p><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:20 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>30 seconds every 5 minutes does not count as "buffing" dps.  Swashbuckler can cap their haste every few minutes too, doesn't mean they buff haste.  Short duration spells =/= buff. Don't be upset because you have class envy.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:Troubador = mage group.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Talk to any real hardcore raiding Troubador, and tell them Troubador=mage group, and they will just laugh at you. Troubadors are DPS group bards. It doesn't matter whether the group has scouts or mages, they are better for pure-dps groups, period.

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:Troubador = mage group.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Talk to any real hardcore raiding Troubador, and tell them Troubador=mage group, and they will just laugh at you. Troubadors are DPS group bards. It doesn't matter whether the group has scouts or mages, they are better for pure-dps groups, period.<hr></blockquote>A troubador offers near nothing in comparison to Dirges for a melee group.  Obviously you can put them in there, but scouts don't have near the aggro issues like mages do, and scouts waste near all of the dps buffs that a troubador has, where the dirge's melee versions are not wasted.<div></div>

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR>Troubador = mage group.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Talk to any real hardcore raiding Troubador, and tell them Troubador=mage group, and they will just laugh at you. Troubadors are DPS group bards. It doesn't matter whether the group has scouts or mages, they are better for pure-dps groups, period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A troubador offers near nothing in comparison to Dirges for a melee group.  Obviously you can put them in there, but scouts don't have near the aggro issues like mages do, and scouts waste near all of the dps buffs that a troubador has, where the dirge's melee versions are not wasted.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If your scouts dont have "aggro issues", then u need new scouts. Well except rangers, they suck anyway.</P> <P>And if ur grouping up ur troub with nothing but mages then its a complete waste of buffs.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>Here's how I see it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Troubadour Abilities</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Physical DPS Only</EM></DIV> <DIV>- +Haste</DIV> <DIV>- Str/Sta buff (minor bonus, most DPS have maxed stats)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Both<BR></EM>- Jester's Cap<BR>- Regen<BR>- Group Deaggro (helps sorcerers more)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Caster DPS Only<BR></EM>- Mental Damage Proc on Hostile Spell<BR>- +casting skills buff (very small bonus, helps rarely)<BR>- Another mental damage proc on hostile spell (brief duration)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in general, Troubadours will provide <EM>more </EM>for a caster oriented group than a melee group. Having a troubadour in the caster group means the sorcerers won't have to go down the Int line for aggro control, and can focus on the Str and Wis lines for higher DPS. Scouts, in general, have plenty of aggro control of their own, between dethreats and hate transfers... sorcerers only have dethreats. Fighter won't benefit from the dethreat anyways (like zerkers, monks and bruisers).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is true that the haste will be partially wasted, however you usually have at least one tank in the group. Pets, the tank, and the troub will all benefit from it... and you want at least one melee guy in there to get the caster in-group buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for a dirge.. here's what I see...<BR></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Dirge Abilities</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Physical DPS Only</EM><BR>- +DPS<BR>- Str/Agi buff (minor bonus, most DPS have maxed stats, but Agi helps scout power if not maxed)<BR>- Disease proc on physical attack<BR>- +skills (very minor for DPS group since they won't be in defensive, better for tank)<BR>- Haste + Disease proc on melee (brief)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Both</EM><BR>- Regen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Caster DPS Only<BR></EM>None</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>For Tanks<BR></EM>- Everything from Physical DPS above<BR>- Stoneskin<BR>- +hate and Str (defensive/resist gear tends to have less Str)<BR>- +Parry<BR>- Life Transfer (small benefit, but it's there)<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yeah, first off they should be in the MT group. If for some reason that's unfeasible (already one in there), they should be in a Physical DPS group. While a troub can function partially (with a lot of waste) in a Physical Only group... a dirge has nothing to give a Caster group but regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically... it comes down to wasting abilities. Sticking a Troub in a caster empty group will be wasting some of their major abilities, and not putting dehate where it's needed <EM>most</EM>. I'm not saying it's <EM>not </EM>needed in a physical DPS group... I'm just saying that a caster DPS group will <EM>benefit more</EM> from the lowered hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if you already have a Dirge in the MT group, and a Troubadour in the Caster group... then having either a troubadour or dirge in the Physical DPS group will be about equal... and dependant on the classes in there (+DPS lacking vs +Haste lacking, etc).</DIV>

[Tanatus]

roflmao ... coercer stun casting time is 0.2-0.4s depending on stun ... with right AA, mez casting time 0.2s again with right AA - I doubt illusionist can cast mez or stun that fast ... thats just for a record... Plus illusionist not have any possibility to trigger Perpentuality V by single spell ..... coercer can

[Crono1321]

I'm glad someone else besides me knows what a Troubador and Dirge do, Raidi.  Troubador in a mage group can fill up all of their concentration slots with mage buffs...how are they COMPLETELY WASTING their buffs?  Regen song +Casting song Deaggro Song Dissonant Note Str/sta buff or self buff How is that a waste?  All they offer to a scout group is a small amount of haste and deaggro?  If your scouts are getting aggro a lot, then you need new scouts.  Ours can score 1300-1800dps regularly without drawing aggro more than a few times a raid, and then they just use slip and its gone.  A mage...yeah they can't lower threat position on command at all. 

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> roflmao ... coercer stun casting time is 0.2-0.4s depending on stun ... with right AA, mez casting time 0.2s again with right AA - I doubt illusionist can cast mez or stun that fast ... thats just for a record... Plus illusionist not have any possibility to trigger Perpentuality V by single spell ..... coercer can<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's impossible to get cast times that low.  Spell Haste caps at 100%, which would mean your shortest cast time will be 0.75 for your ae stun, 1.0 for single target stun, 1.0 for ae daze, and .75 for your mez, while 1.0 for your ae mez.</P> <P>Considering an Illusionist has a 0.5s cast time mez without spell haste, illusionists mez faster, plus a faster cast ae stun without haste.  And Illusionists do have the capability of triggering Perp 5 with a single spell, we cast our INT/WIS buff, or better yet our stupid INT/Casting skill buffs, which has a 1.0s cast time without haste.</P> <P>Anyway, if you think Troubadors should go in a pure-mage group, you miss a lot of buffs for those mages to cast on people.</P>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Tanatus wrote: <div></div>roflmao ... coercer stun casting time is 0.2-0.4s depending on stun ... with right AA, mez casting time 0.2s again with right AA - I doubt illusionist can cast mez or stun that fast ... thats just for a record... Plus illusionist not have any possibility to trigger Perpentuality V by single spell ..... coercer can <hr> </blockquote> <p>That's impossible to get cast times that low.  Spell Haste caps at 100%, which would mean your shortest cast time will be 0.75 for your ae stun, 1.0 for single target stun, 1.0 for ae daze, and .75 for your mez, while 1.0 for your ae mez.</p> <p>Considering an Illusionist has a 0.5s cast time mez without spell haste, illusionists mez faster, plus a faster cast ae stun without haste.  And Illusionists do have the capability of triggering Perp 5 with a single spell, we cast our INT/WIS buff, or better yet our stupid INT/Casting skill buffs, which has a 1.0s cast time without haste.</p> <p>Anyway, if you think Troubadors should go in a pure-mage group, you miss a lot of buffs for those mages to cast on people.</p><hr></blockquote>Mage proc dps is negligable on a raid and a group setting, and certainly not worth moving them out of a troub group to give to what, 2 melee?  Hurray 300 extra damage every now and then.<div></div>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> roflmao ... coercer stun casting time is 0.2-0.4s depending on stun ... with right AA, mez casting time 0.2s again with right AA - I doubt illusionist can cast mez or stun that fast ... thats just for a record... Plus illusionist not have any possibility to trigger Perpentuality V by single spell ..... coercer can<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Our fast mez is .5 second casting time without any AA.