Level 70 Illusionist - Should I betray?

[Barobra]

<DIV>Really not happy with being an Illusionist with LU24. Wondered if you guys were any happier in any given t7 raid situation. Also, in advanced t7 raid situations, aka contested, last mobs in instances...etc. Do you feel useful?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Been thinking about betrayl but going to weight both classes for a while before I do. Problem is I know as soon as I betray they will change both of our classes all over again. Maybe I should just get my level 40 assassin up to 70. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Jvaloth]

<P>All I know is that Coercers are MUCH more useful on raids because of their ability to charm.</P> <P>Until Illusionists get anything as powerful as that to add to a raid,  they will be resigned to second class enchanters imho.</P> <P> </P> <P>I have a 70 illusionist, but the amount of money and masters he has,  it would not be feasible for me to betray at this time.  So I shall stick to 1.7 second stuns and 7 second mezes with insane immunity timers  whilst our coercer cousins can charm adds in key fights and not only take a mob out of the frey, but have it doing damage for them in the process!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Wrapye]

I honestly don't find myself charming mobs on raids, but I'm generally in the MT group.  That has me using concentration slots on Impetus on the MT so that he is generating more hate, and then Harmonious Link on the wizards or brigands, whoever is grabbing aggro from the MT most often.  If we have a second coercer in the raid, he sometimes will charm a mob, but that is rare.  Unless it is a fight where heroics present a particular problem, we burn through them quickly.  You can't charm the adds of the Mutagenic Outcast anymore, which was one of the few places charm was useful. To address the OP, I find that our main raid illusionist has structured himself to do dps (INT AA line, I think AGI line) and he's generally up there in the parses.  He's also often with the scout/brawler types to haste them.  My belief is that the coercer does in general have more utility in the raid.  +hate buff for the tank, +dps buffs for MT and other melee types, -hate buff for the big damage dealers, two debuff lines (one for arcane resists and one that does arcane/elemental/noxious) and the ability to give someone who died and was rezzed in the group power immediately (with Channel).  Amnesia is good to reset an encounter against a single mob.  Granted the coercer tends to die, but better than a wipe.<div></div>

[Tanatus]

<P>Speaking about raids yes coercers game out of LU24 better.... We are masters of hate manipulation - in addtion to +49% hate that dont eat conc slot anymore we got raid-wide amends (-23% to hate) for cost of 1 conc slot.</P> <P>Out ability work as supreme crackdealers also remain intact after LU24</P> <P>Yes we lost a bit DPS and second root - none the less charm remain intact, mez now stick on everything (even formed mez immune mobs including epics became succeptible to mez)</P> <P>Illusionist and Coercer is 2 totaly different classes per se - the only thing they share is ability to mez and ability to regenerate mana. Illi differ from Coercer as much as Guardian differ from Zerker</P> <P>Its hard to advice is it worth to betray or not because you will have to spend healthy amount of cash to buy all masters </P>

[Barobra]

<DIV>I am speaking strictly in the sense of usefulness in raids. Good info so far. I am going to try to work on my DPS a little more. I need to rearrange my AA's probably.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing that has stopped me is me being stubborn and obviously spell upgrades.</DIV>

[Snarks]

<blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div></div> <p>All I know is that Coercers are MUCH more useful on raids because of their ability to charm.</p><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? charm blows on raids. any coercer that uses charm on raids has issues. first of all, you cant even put dps/deaggro/hate on anyone with charm up. secondly, group aoe cure arcane breaks charm. it just makes no sense. plus, now most things arent even charmable since recent exploitz. if you want a coercer for raids, you are there for the 74% dps buffs, the deaggros, and the hate buffs. because coercers can buff hate and heal crits they are good for a maintank group, and dps buffs make them great for dps groups too. illusionists are really just good for caster groups.<div></div>

[Dravendar]

<div><blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:<blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div></div> <p>All I know is that Coercers are MUCH more useful on raids because of their ability to charm.</p><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? charm blows on raids. any coercer that uses charm on raids has issues. first of all, you cant even put dps/deaggro/hate on anyone with charm up. secondly, group aoe cure arcane breaks charm. it just makes no sense. plus, now most things arent even charmable since recent exploitz. if you want a coercer for raids, you are there for the 74% dps buffs, the deaggros, and the hate buffs. because coercers can buff hate and heal crits they are good for a maintank group, and dps buffs make them great for dps groups too. illusionists are really just good for caster groups.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I have to agree.  IMO, Coercers are MUCH more useful on raids.  I've raided as an illusy for many many months and chose to give up nearly a full complement of master spells and 3 relic pieces to switch to the dark side of the force.  I haven't looked back.Well...I haven't looked back in terms of raiding...single grouping...now thats a different story.  </div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>If i had to put the difference in raids into one sentence.........the illusionist ends up more of a DPS class with Utility, while the Coercer is more of a Utility class with some DPS.</DIV>

[nvrpost]

I just came back to the game after a year off, and I betrayed my illusionist at level 50.  This wasn't a hard decision because i wanted to see if the grass was greener, and the spells that i lost (11M1s, and 13 Ad3s) were going to be forfeited by leveling anyway.  I've been fiddling around with charm for a couple hours this morning, and my conclusion is that the hype over M1 charms is really valid.  I found myself a nice wizard in sol ro temple and it was basically useless.  He would fire off 500dd's and then try to run in and i had to call him out, before he tried to melee and die.  If he was firing off 3x the dps that'd be clearly more worth while, considering the 20 minute effort it took to grab it.  I don't know what kind of dps the M1 personae pumps out, but my guess it's probably about as good as the run of the mill charmed mob.  Most of coercer and illusionist soloing ability comes through having a reasonably strong root, i expect that as my opinions grow that i'll find a coercer is actually stronger against a ^^^ (akin to wizards) and an illusionist is stronger against a group of 3 (akin to warlocks).  I'll admit that i'm not raiding at this time but after investigating the two classes, I concluded they are pretty well balanced - essentially melee based dps benefits most from coercers and casting dps benefits from the illusionists, and that the classes share and exchange crossover utility to groups of classes with illusionist helping melee and coercer helping casters with their single function debuff - I just wanted to charm like in eq1.  Which class contributes more is probably baseless without considering the particular encounter and the raid composition, i'll go out on a limb there because usually it's true in MMOs.  The game's stated goals leads me to believe that the classes will change more if they get out of balance.  I'm not returning to nightly raiding, so I think I was better off with illusionist to take care of myself in the solo game because i had so much experience over the year that I played. I know you all are evil so feel free to pick this apart, I've returned to being such a newb and know it.<div></div>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>If i had to put the difference in raids into one sentence.........the illusionist ends up more of a DPS class with Utility, while the Coercer is more of a Utility class with some DPS.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Using volitale magic, 2 million procs and a troub. Could they not achieve something similar?

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>If i had to put the difference in raids into one sentence.........the illusionist ends up more of a DPS class with Utility, while the Coercer is more of a Utility class with some DPS.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Using volitale magic, 2 million procs and a troub. Could they not achieve something similar?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They'd lose 1 of their important utilities, channel, by doing it.

[nscragg]

<P>Everyone suffers from class envy to some degree.  Something was the driving force behind your decision to play an Illusionist.  Stay the course and accept the changes to your class just as coercers have had to all this time.  I hear complaining all the time from Illusionists regarding our leet +DPS, hate gain and aggro redux.  I think their point being, we're "too" useful in raids.  I expect that at some point we'll get served up and people who betrayed will be saying, "I wish I hadn't betrayed".</P> <P>Besides, you only ever need one or at a stretch two coercers in an entire raid guild.  Having said that, if all these illusionists betray, there are going to be a lot of coercers without homes.  Everyone stay where you are!  =)</P> <P> </P>

[Nupr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>If i had to put the difference in raids into one sentence.........the illusionist ends up more of a DPS class with Utility, while the Coercer is more of a Utility class with some DPS.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Using volitale magic, 2 million procs and a troub. Could they not achieve something similar?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well as a former raiding Illusionist I'd have to say no.  A lot of coercer DPS comes from reactive nukes on the mob and really depends on what the mob happens to be doing and the quality of your tank (the suck tank is better for coercer DPS).  Another one of the big coercer nukes is personal based which isn't always the brightest place for our squishiness to be.  </P> <P>For me the decision to betray was easy, we had 2 illusionists and no coercers.  I definitely feel I contribute more to the raid then I ever could have as an illusionist.  Hate gain buffs and deaggros and amnesia are great spells.   I'm content now though, which I wasn't before.</P> <P>The grass isn't really greener on the other side, just different.  I lost a good bit of DPS and some of the things illusionists have I really miss.  I miss the AE stifle and prismatic havoc the most.  You could always count on the 3 procs being used by prismatic havoc by the time the recast was back instead of staring at your maintained bar trying to figure out when you need to recast.  Coercer personal deagro has fear with it instead of mez, bah.  I miss illusory allies too but we won't talk about that.  </P> <P>I'd really just look at what your guild needs though and then decide if you want to make a jump.  If you already have a regular raiding coercer, you really don't need two.  DaMutation pretty much summed up how I feel about our classes with the above quote.</P>

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>If i had to put the difference in raids into one sentence.........the illusionist ends up more of a DPS class with Utility, while the Coercer is more of a Utility class with some DPS.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Using volitale magic, 2 million procs and a troub. Could they not achieve something similar?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Honestly, i doubt it. But then again, I have never seen a coercer aim purely for DPS. However, its alot more unlikely that a coercer is placed with a troub and wizzie than an illusionist, mainly because of buffs. An illusionist can be put with a troub and wizzie easily, since they all have buffs that help each other. Coercers however, aside from the mana regen, have no good buffs for casters. So if ur trying to achieve the optimal raid setup its definately not the way to group up a coercer.</P> <P>Also, as mentioned in an above post, alot of coercer DPS depends on the mob doing damage. They have reactives that do damage when a mob melees, uses a spell, and uses power. So unless the mob is doing those things like crazy, its very unlikely that they can even come close on DPS.</P>

[Wrapye]

<div></div>Yep, our ability to mezz/stifle/stun is counterproductive to our dps, as the mob isn't attacking/using power less. <div></div><p>Message Edited by sacremon on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:54 PM</span>

[Barobra]

Thanks for the info, I was going to post here and weight my options before I would betray. Just wanted to get a feel for what coercers thought about the raid situation in general.<p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:18 AM</span>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> snarkteeth wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <P>All I know is that Coercers are MUCH more useful on raids because of their ability to charm.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? charm blows on raids. any coercer that uses charm on raids has issues. first of all, you cant even put dps/deaggro/hate on anyone with charm up. secondly, group aoe cure arcane breaks charm. it just makes no sense. plus, now most things arent even charmable since recent exploitz.<BR><BR>if you want a coercer for raids, you are there for the 74% dps buffs, the deaggros, and the hate buffs. because coercers can buff hate and heal crits they are good for a maintank group, and dps buffs make them great for dps groups too. illusionists are really just good for caster groups.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you want to pigeonhole yourself into a single, non-negotiable raid role, go ahead.</P> <P>Some of us, on the other hand, feel that certain situations allow for different tactics to be used.</P> <P>I am the only raiding coercer in our guild at present, which means I am in the tank group about 95% of the time (and yes, there are fights where you don't want a coercer in the tank group).  Even when I am in the tank group, sometimes I am required to mes and charm in a raid situation.</P> <P>So lets see:</P> <P>"any coercer that uses charm on raids has issues"</P> <P>Any coercer who ignores one of their core class abilties also has issues.</P> <P>"first of all, you cant even put dps/deaggro/hate on anyone with charm up"</P> <P>Wrong.  Hate buff no longer requires concentration.  Most x4 charmed raid mobs out DPS the equivalent of Impetus on 5 raid members, much less 1 or 2. </P> <P>"secondly, group aoe cure arcane breaks charm"</P> <P>Wrong again, that has been fixed.</P> <P>"plus, now most things arent even charmable since recent exploitz"</P> <P>What, are you raiding T6?  T7 has MANY charmable raid mobs.  You are aware that not all mobs tagged as epic are really epic, right?</P> <P>"if you want a coercer for raids, you are there for the 74% dps buffs, the deaggros, and the hate buffs"</P> <P>Much of the time, sure.  All of the time, nope.  You do realize Impetus only affects auto attack, right?  And given that tidbit, the best person to put Impetus on would be?  A charmed pet.  Why?  Well, how often do you think your scouts actually just stand there with auto-attack on?</P> <P>I am sorry to be a bit sarcastic, but people like you are the reason that coercer's other abilties aren't explored as viable alternatives.  Try thinking outside the box for a change.</P> <P>Cyene</P><p>Message Edited by Aoine on <span class=date_text>07-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:52 PM</span>

[Manyak]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR> <P>You do realize Impetus only affects auto attack, right?  And given that tidbit, the best person to put Impetus on would be?  A charmed pet.  Why?  Well, how often do you think your scouts actually just stand there with auto-attack on?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have a few things to say about this statement....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Scouts dont have to SIT there with autoattack on for autoattack to hit. While chaining CAs, if there was an autoattack that was supposed to hit during a CA cast, then it will be delayed until the CA is done, and hit right afterwards anyway. Plus, if u play any scout, theres always nice big periods of time when there are no CAs up and autoattack is the only thing doing damage. Ask any scout how much more damage they do when they cap haste and DPS, and ull understand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) There are times when scouts PURPOSELY dont hit a single CA and just autoattack. Namely, when theres a dirge in the group who casts cacophany of blades. It makes every single autoattck proc like 500 damage, and so they just sit there for 20 seconds doing nothing but letting autoattack rip up the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Impetus on the MT when ur in that group is also a big helper. So if u have ur INT+AGI buff up for the MT's avoidance and procs, and the power pool buff up for the healers, and impetus on the MT for even more aggro, then theres no room for charming a pet. And those first 2 buffs should always be up in DPS groups as well, since the INT helps the scouts proc damage and the AGI helps their power pool even more (they dont get 7-8k power pools easily like mages do).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>4) And anyway, if all ur buffs really are such a minimal DPS boost as u think they are, then dont cast it, and put harmonious link on everyone u can. The decreased hate should make up for having a pet 10-fold.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes, charming on raids is a big waste. Sure go ahead and do it once in a while if ur just messing around in an easy zone or something for some fun, but it really really shouldnt be done, unless its part of some strat to get rid of a mob from the encounter or something.</DIV></DIV>

[Victicu]

<div><blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:<blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div></div> <p>All I know is that Coercers are MUCH more useful on raids because of their ability to charm.</p><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? charm blows on raids. any coercer that uses charm on raids has issues. first of all, you cant even put dps/deaggro/hate on anyone with charm up. secondly, group aoe cure arcane breaks charm. it just makes no sense. plus, now most things arent even charmable since recent exploitz. if you want a coercer for raids, you are there for the 74% dps buffs, the deaggros, and the hate buffs. because coercers can buff hate and heal crits they are good for a maintank group, and dps buffs make them great for dps groups too. illusionists are really just good for caster groups.<div></div><hr></blockquote>/shrug ... i charm at raids mostly while killing trash... any extra DPS is welcome imo, your just gimping yourself by not charming.  In MT group you really only need 2 conc slots... Impetus for tank and dirge. Can drop the other two group concentration buffs as they arent needed during 90% of the raid.Most boss encounters i dont charm, because i need to focus on other things... but even fights like MO, i always always charm, your pet is like an expendable tank.</div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>Well, I agree that autoattack does play a large role in physical DPS, however I think you might be overplaying how much our abilities are really adding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say a scout is doing 1000 DPS. Usually 30% of that is from autoattack. So we're looking at 300 DPS is being affected. Now, that might be the single biggest chunk of DPS... however a 75% increase to that is only adding 225 DPS to that scout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let's say you are in an ideal situation, where you are actually grouped with at least 3 other DPSers, and none of them are at 25% or higher already, self buffed (either through abilities or AAs). This would add, on average, around 675 extra DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A pet can usually bring over 1k DPS on his own, and that doesn't matter at all what group you are in. Those three slots aren't necessarily better spent on tossing Impetus around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I end up using Harmonious Link instead really.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the others:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Int/Agi buff - This buff is nearly useless for us in raid dps/tanking. Int increases only magical procs (not the crushing/slashing procs, etc), and it increases at a very slow rate (something like 1:10 ratio... so 85 more Int will give a whopping 8.5 more damage on a 5% proc.. whupdeedoo). Agility is the single worst way to increase avoidance... it takes 30 Agility to increase avoidance by 1%. Also negligable addition.<BR>On raids... I absolutely never have this buff up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Power/Resists - Power should not be a problem if you are in the group. When have you had anyone get down far enough in power with a Coercer in the group, that an extra 600 meant the difference. The resists are nice, but as the new equipment stats have shown.. only required in very specific situations. Unless we are fighting something that fears, or has a nasty magic dot, this buff is gone too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When on a raid, we should have Harmonious Link up on the major aggro hotspots, and sorcerers so they can do more damage. If you run out of those, then maybe toss up Impetus on someone in the group. Occasionally, you'll want to bring out the resist buff for a particular boss fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The major problem with using Charm in raids is that even trash can drop important things like Relic pieces. Which means you can't really keep them from fight to fight. First off, you are delaying getting a potential chest. Second, if your pet dies while under your control and it's the last of the group... will you get the chest? It's possible you might not, and I'm not willing to take that risk and [Removed for Content] off 23 other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Charm has it's <STRONG>uses</STRONG> on raids, but mainly as breaking up the encounter and reducing spike damage. I'd never think to use it for a DPS tool beyond the fight that got it... what if it breaks and kills you, then the goes on the healers or something right in the middle of a big boss fight? While wiping in HoF because the Cent broke loose isn't that bad to recover from, and folks are willing to put up with that.... on raids, being the sole reason for failure on a boss that you were otherwise going to beat, isn't exactly the best position to be in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Charm will be extremely useful for controlling a few encounters... beyond that, you'll be better off buffing hate deaggro primarily.</DIV>

[Aoi]

<DIV>I think you guys that have responded to me are essentially agreeing with what I am saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought I was pretty clear in stating that Charm has uses on a raid.  I didn't think I implied that it is more or less important to any of our buffs at any given time.  Hell, there is a time and place when Harmonious Link is bad because it procs dmg, so you have to weigh the situation carefully.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I did say was ignoring ANY of our abilities is just silly.  Charm has its uses in certain scenarios.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"So yes, charming on raids is a big waste. Sure go ahead and do it once in a while if ur just messing around in an easy zone or something for some fun, but it really really shouldnt be done, unless its part of some strat to get rid of a mob from the encounter or something."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In this statement, you contradict yourself and basically re-iterate my point.  I am talking about those exact situations, where one or more unmesable, unrootable mobs needs to be removed from the encounter (or the extra DPS is needed).  I rarely keep a mob charmed for more than 1 fight in a raid zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at it this way, lets say Uber Mob X has 4 mesable guards.  You can mes all 4 while killing the named, sure.  You can also mes 3, charm 1, and sic the one on the named until the AEs kill him, then repeat.  At the end of the fight, you may only have 2 or 1 mesed instead of 4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How is that not more efficient?  More risky maybe...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you have to do it that way, if you think that mes is less risky?  No way....but don't tell me its the ONLY way.  How much "risk" a strat contains is each raid's decision to make.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to repeat, since I think this was missed in my original post....Charm has it's uses in certain situations.  I never said I charm on every raid, nor did I say anyone should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I pretty much agree with Raidi's post.  I think he and I have slightly different styles, but the message is the same.  Use what abilities best suit the situation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Aoine on <span class=date_text>07-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:13 PM</span>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think you guys that have responded to me are essentially agreeing with what I am saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought I was pretty clear in stating that Charm has uses on a raid.  I didn't think I implied that it is more or less important to any of our buffs at any given time.  Hell, there is a time and place when Harmonious Link is bad because it procs dmg, so you have to weigh the situation carefully.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I did say was ignoring ANY of our abilities is just silly.  Charm has its uses in certain scenarios.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"So yes, charming on raids is a big waste. Sure go ahead and do it once in a while if ur just messing around in an easy zone or something for some fun, but it really really shouldnt be done, unless its part of some strat to get rid of a mob from the encounter or something."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In this statement, you contradict yourself and basically re-iterate my point.  I am talking about those exact situations, where one or more unmesable, unrootable mobs needs to be removed from the encounter (or the extra DPS is needed).  I rarely keep a mob charmed for more than 1 fight in a raid zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at it this way, lets say Uber Mob X has 4 mesable guards.  You can mes all 4 while killing the named, sure.  You can also mes 3, charm 1, and sic the one on the named until the AEs kill him, then repeat.  At the end of the fight, you may only have 2 or 1 mesed instead of 4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How is that not more efficient?  More risky maybe...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you have to do it that way, if you think that mes is less risky?  No way....but don't tell me its the ONLY way.  How much "risk" a strat contains is each raid's decision to make.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to repeat, since I think this was missed in my original post....Charm has it's uses in certain situations.  I never said I charm on every raid, nor did I say anyone should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I pretty much agree with Raidi's post.  I think he and I have slightly different styles, but the message is the same.  Use what abilities best suit the situation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Aoine on <SPAN class=date_text>07-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or you could just AE down all the 4 adds, and problem solved?

[Tanatus]

<P>Let me put this way - in some places charmed mob safely can replace 2 wizards or 1.3 assasin - unfortunate I know only 2 such places in T7 - LoA and Mark 4 - eslewhere I havent found anything that suitable for DPS charming</P> <P>Speaking about buffs ....</P> <P>Int/Agi usually most valuable for AGI part (extra avoidance) its so easy to hit int cap w/o any int buffs its not even funny</P> <P>Mental/Magic/Divine resist-Mana buff - valueable mostly because of mana part 600 power from M1 of Incitement comes handly</P> <P>Impetus? - waste of conc slot unless guild have excess of coercers so they are sitting in scouts/zerkers/brawlers groups </P> <P>Harmonious Link - god send 23% usually enouth to take care about brigands and warlocks even if no troubadur/paladins attached to em</P> <P>Enraging Demeanor - god send +49% hate to all allow everyone go upward 1000-1100 DPS w/o pulling agro (going above that mark requied Harmonious link or other class de-agro)</P> <P>Emphatic Aura - +14% to healing good deal always (but thats shared with illusionists)</P> <P>Touch of Emphaty - -1029 hate every 20s (or 30) priceless on body pulls with active Sancuary then appplied to templar</P> <P>So coercer is far and beyond conception of simple buff bot - Amnesia, Channel, Mana Flow, array of AoE stuns and daze - all have it uses</P>

[Manyak]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote: <P>Harmonious Link - god send 23% usually enouth to take care about brigands and warlocks even if no troubadur/paladins attached to em<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warlocks need both a troub AND harmonious link to be able to even think about AEing properly, even when the tank has both a coercer and dirge. And i dunno about u guys, but we dont like to sacrifice our paladins =)</P>

[nscragg]

<P>Not sure you got the answer you were looking for as everyone in this thread seems to suffer from ADHD and spent little time addressing your question(s).  What did you decide to do? And why?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Wrapye]

<div><blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div></div> <p> And i dunno about u guys, but we dont like to sacrifice our paladins =)</p><hr></blockquote>We don't?  It seems our title of 'the goat' seems to go to paladins more than others <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think you guys that have responded to me are essentially agreeing with what I am saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought I was pretty clear in stating that Charm has uses on a raid.  I didn't think I implied that it is more or less important to any of our buffs at any given time.  Hell, there is a time and place when Harmonious Link is bad because it procs dmg, so you have to weigh the situation carefully.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I did say was ignoring ANY of our abilities is just silly.  Charm has its uses in certain scenarios.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"So yes, charming on raids is a big waste. Sure go ahead and do it once in a while if ur just messing around in an easy zone or something for some fun, but it really really shouldnt be done, unless its part of some strat to get rid of a mob from the encounter or something."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In this statement, you contradict yourself and basically re-iterate my point.  I am talking about those exact situations, where one or more unmesable, unrootable mobs needs to be removed from the encounter (or the extra DPS is needed).  I rarely keep a mob charmed for more than 1 fight in a raid zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at it this way, lets say Uber Mob X has 4 mesable guards.  You can mes all 4 while killing the named, sure.  You can also mes 3, charm 1, and sic the one on the named until the AEs kill him, then repeat.  At the end of the fight, you may only have 2 or 1 mesed instead of 4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How is that not more efficient?  More risky maybe...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you have to do it that way, if you think that mes is less risky?  No way....but don't tell me its the ONLY way.  How much "risk" a strat contains is each raid's decision to make.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to repeat, since I think this was missed in my original post....Charm has it's uses in certain situations.  I never said I charm on every raid, nor did I say anyone should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I pretty much agree with Raidi's post.  I think he and I have slightly different styles, but the message is the same.  Use what abilities best suit the situation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Aoine on <SPAN class=date_text>07-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or you could just AE down all the 4 adds, and problem solved?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not if the tank can't mitigate the dmg from 4 guards plus the named simultaneously.</P> <P>Cyene</P> <P> </P>

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>.................................(cut out from length)..............</BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not if the tank can't mitigate the dmg from 4 guards plus the named simultaneously.</P> <P>Cyene<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Have a fury in the MT group, and then that fury can cast urchin on the pull (+2k mit to the tank for 30 sec, and if ur tank is in anything higher than cobalt then that should cap mit). When urchin is down, the tank can put up his 30 second mit buffs, which, again, will cap his mit. And hell, f ur using a guardian, he can use tower of stone on the pull (absorbs 3 big hits) which gives the raid time to debuff, and if the mob has no AOE, then he can use stone sphere too for extra stoneskin procs.</P> <P>So for the first 60 seconds, or the first 90 seconds if ur tank is a guardian, he should have capped mit. If u cant keep a tank live for 90 seconds with capped mit, then something is really wrong. Make sure that ur healers are healing properly, and make sure the raid is debuffing the named mob ASAP, and keeping those debuffs up.</P>

[Aoi]

<P>Why would you assume we are not doing all of that already?</P> <P>Your logic that "capped mit" somehow makes the tank a god, allowing him to tank any number of mobs at the same time, is flawed.</P> <P>Besides, I wasn't asking for a better strat, or advice.  I was merely illustrating that there might be more than one strat, and that one may involve charm.</P> <P>I do appreicate your comments, but cycling lockdowns is like Raid Strat 101.  Not trying to be rude or anything, just somewhat offended that you would assume we are idiots.</P> <P>Cyene</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>um [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....im not assuming u are idiots....but to prove my point i needed to show a different strat that works and doesnt involve charm, which is all i did. if all i say is blah blah blah dont need it, and dont support my claim, then what kind of argument would i be making? just, if the tank cant mitigate it, then make him mitigate it, and ur fine.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[110euph]

<P>I messed around with a newb coercer on the newb isle today (Created him, got him to lvl 5 before I had to go to work) and totally and completely fell in love with charm.  I'm going to betray with my 63 illusionist.  I don't care who is better at what and for how long... charming a mob is FUN.</P> <P> </P> <P>AND... Watching that mob break charm and come after you is FUN too!  As an Illusionist I was far too infrequently presented with an emergency DO IT RIGHT OR DIE NOW situation.  Looks like that's a Coercer's whole life. =)  I can hardly wait to get home.</P>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>hahah now thats a great post to read and so true, i been gone form the game for 14 months cause of various reasons got back and see my coercer has changed a lot. Didnt like it at first till i toyed around with it more and yea its fun to be a coercer again......altough even when we were broke i did enjoy coercers! the things that bugged me back then was that i couldnt get a group unless it was a guild group. </P> <P>But now it seems to be real easy for me to get groups a lot mroe fun etc so i decided to get the expansion aswell woohoo going for lvl 70 now reached 59 today!</P> <P>Anways have fun with betraying and hope ya keep liking it!</P>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Aoine wrote: <div></div> <blockquote>.................................(cut out from length)..............</blockquote> <p>Not if the tank can't mitigate the dmg from 4 guards plus the named simultaneously.</p> <p>Cyene</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Have a fury in the MT group, and then that fury can cast urchin on the pull (+2k mit to the tank for 30 sec, and if ur tank is in anything higher than cobalt then that should cap mit). When urchin is down, the tank can put up his 30 second mit buffs, which, again, will cap his mit. And hell, f ur using a guardian, he can use tower of stone on the pull (absorbs 3 big hits) which gives the raid time to debuff, and if the mob has no AOE, then he can use stone sphere too for extra stoneskin procs.</p> <p>So for the first 60 seconds, or the first 90 seconds if ur tank is a guardian, he should have capped mit. If u cant keep a tank live for 90 seconds with capped mit, then something is really wrong. Make sure that ur healers are healing properly, and make sure the raid is debuffing the named mob ASAP, and keeping those debuffs up.</p><hr></blockquote>Your plan is further flawed as urchin will only last for 25 hits, and with 5 mobs on the MT that will last around 5 seconds.  Urchin doesnt even last the full duration when there is one mob on the mt.<div></div>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aoine wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>.................................(cut out from length)..............</BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not if the tank can't mitigate the dmg from 4 guards plus the named simultaneously.</P> <P>Cyene<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Have a fury in the MT group, and then that fury can cast urchin on the pull (+2k mit to the tank for 30 sec, and if ur tank is in anything higher than cobalt then that should cap mit). When urchin is down, the tank can put up his 30 second mit buffs, which, again, will cap his mit. And hell, f ur using a guardian, he can use tower of stone on the pull (absorbs 3 big hits) which gives the raid time to debuff, and if the mob has no AOE, then he can use stone sphere too for extra stoneskin procs.</P> <P>So for the first 60 seconds, or the first 90 seconds if ur tank is a guardian, he should have capped mit. If u cant keep a tank live for 90 seconds with capped mit, then something is really wrong. Make sure that ur healers are healing properly, and make sure the raid is debuffing the named mob ASAP, and keeping those debuffs up.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your plan is further flawed as urchin will only last for 25 hits, and with 5 mobs on the MT that will last around 5 seconds.  Urchin doesnt even last the full duration when there is one mob on the mt.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Couple of necros can help on that fight alot though... :smileyhappy: