Please tell me it's not time to roll a new toon...

[Roriondesexiest]

<DIV>In the coercer channel last night someone said there was a change on Test where you would be forced to upgrade your Charm spell as you leveled because lower level ones would be resisted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please tell me that isn't true.  I bought the only Master charm I have seen on my server and that is lvl 33 Beguile.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rorion</DIV> <DIV>Troll Coercer of 54 Seasons</DIV> <DIV>New Dawn Adventurers</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sommarnatt2]

All control spells will have higher resists if the mob is more than 20 levels above that spells level according to the patch notes.So Im guessing you could still charm lvl 52 mobs though <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Check the broker a few times per day, that's what I did and finally got my Domination Master 1 two days ago for my wanna-be coercer.<div></div>

[Azmode]

<P>Yup its true.  No longer is using Dominate Master 1 (47)  at level 70 doable.  Random early breaks are a joke, especially if your in high aggro spots.  </P> <P> I usually would not have a problem with this, but Domination is rarer than rare on my server and I have never seen it drop or on sale at vendor.  Nothing like being held hostage to an insanely rare spell.  If you dont raid, and you rely on charm to do anything, AND  you cannot get Domination Master you might as well roll up a new toon.  </P>

[Roriondesexiest]

<P>Great, I was really liking this class, maybe time to move back to my warlock, at least I am used to the [Removed for Content] on that toon....</P> <P>Woo hoo, we can now stun an epic mob for 8 seconds every minute or so (if you raid, which *gasp* not everyone does)</P> <P>So +1 for that and -10 for all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty changes made with this LU.</P> <P>Between SWG and EQ2 it is a wonder I still play SOE games....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[PluvianMi]

<P>Hopefully they will improve the drop rates of some of the T7 masters while they're making this change.</P> <P>Even with checking the broker / fence on Oasis multiple times per day I've never seen a single Domination M1 and I've only since 1 Dominate M1.</P>

[Roriondesexiest]

<P>I am not normally a "the sky is falling" person but if this goes to live I am done with EQ2...</P> <P>I look every time I get on and have only seen the 1 beguile that I now own at M1, nothing higher.</P><p>Message Edited by dalessit on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 AM</span>

[Enil]

<Quote from test update notes>- All hostile spells and arts that stun, mesmerize, root, fear, daze or stifle their targets will become increasingly more resistible when you are 20 levels above the spell level.</End quote>Our charm spell is not mentioned though that could have been a oversight.  But even if it was mentioned, hopfully they would only change the outright resist on casting, not breakage chance.The real question is, would it be so very very bad to be using adept III of charm that the sky is literally falling?  <font size="3">One thing to note however is that the level of the target is irrelevant to this resist change.</font><font size="3"></font>

[Barobra]

<DIV>Looking at this change from a logical stand point just plain makes sense. Where is the insentive to upgrade these spells? Why should I pay 10p for that master when its just giving me a duration increase of 5 seconds (just a random example)? I think this change is just a logical step in the right direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trust me, there have been tactics used by all classes because they could use there level 1-10 spell on a level 70 that would be considered questionable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, I can and used to solo 60-70 heroic nameds by mezzing them over and over with a low level mez while I had 4 total procs going off. Do you think this tactic is legal? I admit using it but always thought it was ify.</DIV>

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Enilno wrote:<BR><Quote from test update notes><BR>- All hostile spells and arts that stun, mesmerize, root, fear, daze or stifle their targets will become increasingly more resistible when you are 20 levels above the spell level.<BR></End quote><BR><BR>Our charm spell is not mentioned though that could have been a oversight.  But even if it was mentioned, hopfully they would only change the outright resist on casting, not breakage chance.<BR><BR>The real question is, would it be so very very bad to be using adept III of charm that the sky is literally falling?  <FONT size=3><BR><BR>One thing to note however is that the level of the target is irrelevant to this resist change.<BR></FONT><FONT size=3></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would be very happy to be wrong about this, would make my day even....</P> <P>From what I have seen there is quite a difference between Adept 3 and Master 1 for charm.</P> <P>Has anyone validated this on the test server?<BR></P>

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>Looking at this change from a logical stand point just plain makes sense. Where is the insentive to upgrade these spells? Why should I pay 10p for that master when its just giving me a duration increase of 5 seconds (just a random example)? I think this change is just a logical step in the right direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trust me, there have been tactics used by all classes because they could use there level 1-10 spell on a level 70 that would be considered questionable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, I can and used to solo 60-70 heroic nameds by mezzing them over and over with a low level mez while I had 4 total procs going off. Do you think this tactic is legal? I admit using it but always thought it was ify.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree that is unusual in this game for this to happen, but how many have not bought the master (if they could afford it) for the next level, I don't think that is the issue.</P> <P>If I had ever seen one above lvl 33 in the time I have been playing a coercer I would have bought it.</P> <P>Also, it really pisses me off when changes are made midstream, it is one thing if it is a bug.  </P>

[JackAll]

<P>dps goes up by roughly a factor 3 from adept3 to m1.</P> <P>If I remember correctly</P>

[Barobra]

Changes are just part of this game. Its just to big for it to be perfect. To many variables, classes, skills, monsters, monsters skills, and a whole lot of other things. To make everything work perfectly every single time is just insane. Maybe they should have looked into the future and implemented this a long time ago. But I think you should just bite the bullet and except the change as something that should have happened a long time ago and save up for that master. :smileyhappy:

[Ulrick85]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dalessit wrote: <P><BR>I agree that is unusual in this game for this to happen, but how many have not bought the master (if they could afford it) for the next level, I don't think that is the issue.</P> <P>If I had ever seen one above lvl 33 in the time I have been playing a coercer I would have bought it.</P> <P>Also, it really pisses me off when changes are made midstream, it is one thing if it is a bug.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Most do buy the masters if they are there or affordable.. the problem was people were using the t6 master instead of the t7 adept 3.. causing no need for scribes to be there....  *looks guilty of this*

[Alaeth]

<blockquote><hr>Ulrick85 wrote:Most do buy the masters if they are there or affordable.. the problem was people were using the t6 master instead of the t7 adept 3.. causing no need for scribes to be there.... *looks guilty of this*<hr></blockquote>That would be because T7 spell upgrades are, for the most part, pointless--which in that specific case is an issue with spell scaling in T6, not underlying game mechanics. At a deeper level, though, there's a problem with upgrade worth for control spells in general; small duration and/or secondary effect (power drain, etc.) increases just aren't enough to justify the increased power consumption that comes with upgrading to the next spell tier, in most cases. LU 24 exacerbates this problem for many spell lines by further flattening the improvement rate of stun/mez duration, removing the hate decrease from secondary stun, and so on, so now the developers have to find some way to force people to upgrade.Rather than providing some sort of positive incentive to do so, as in the case of most spell categories, they simply chose to draw a line in the sand and say, "Upgrade, or past this point you're screwed." It's heavy-handed, doesn't address the underlying problem with control spell scaling, and doesn't account for the fact that the resistance chance for several spell lines is already increasing as a result of changes made in LU 24. Still, though, masters for the T7 mezzes/stuns/etc. are fairly common, so that's not too much of an issue. I had planned on saving my money, but at least they're available--and if they're not, the Adept IIIs are almost as good.As for charm specifically, if I can't find a Domination M1 in the few levels I have left before reaching 67 (highly unlikely, since I don't know a single Coercer on my server with it, leading me to believe it hasn't dropped yet), I'm going to be retiring my Coercer. I've played with Adept III charm before, and I'm not willing to go back after 30+ levels of using M1 charm. I have little to no interest in raiding, for the most part, and with this change, it seems the developers are making a concerted effort in LU 24 to ruin everything I find enjoyable about playing my Coercer.

[Roriondesexiest]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alaeth wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ulrick85 wrote:<BR>Most do buy the masters if they are there or affordable.. the problem was people were using the t6 master instead of the t7 adept 3.. causing no need for scribes to be there.... *looks guilty of this*<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>That would be because T7 spell upgrades are, for the most part, pointless--which in that specific case is an issue with spell scaling in T6, not underlying game mechanics. At a deeper level, though, there's a problem with upgrade worth for control spells in general; small duration and/or secondary effect (power drain, etc.) increases just aren't enough to justify the increased power consumption that comes with upgrading to the next spell tier, in most cases. LU 24 exacerbates this problem for many spell lines by further flattening the improvement rate of stun/mez duration, removing the hate decrease from secondary stun, and so on, so now the developers have to find some way to force people to upgrade.<BR><BR>Rather than providing some sort of positive incentive to do so, as in the case of most spell categories, they simply chose to draw a line in the sand and say, "Upgrade, or past this point you're screwed." It's heavy-handed, doesn't address the underlying problem with control spell scaling, and doesn't account for the fact that the resistance chance for several spell lines is already increasing as a result of changes made in LU 24. Still, though, masters for the T7 mezzes/stuns/etc. are fairly common, so that's not too much of an issue. I had planned on saving my money, but at least they're available--and if they're not, the Adept IIIs are almost as good.<BR><BR>As for charm specifically, if I can't find a Domination M1 in the few levels I have left before reaching 67 (highly unlikely, since I don't know a single Coercer on my server with it, leading me to believe it hasn't dropped yet), I'm going to be retiring my Coercer. I've played with Adept III charm before, and I'm not willing to go back after 30+ levels of using M1 charm. I have little to no interest in raiding, for the most part, and with this change, it seems the developers are making a concerted effort in LU 24 to ruin everything I find enjoyable about playing my Coercer.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>QFE</P>

[Azmode]

I have no problem with the "fix" to the spells. Just dont make the dam spell rarer than a Bigfoot sighting.  Charm is our class defining spell, and making the master almost impossible to get is BS.  Its a level 61 spell for crying out loud.    Face it, they just have it in for coercers.  Our level 70 spells are just as rare. 

[feronia28]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by feronia28 on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 AM</span>

[JackAll]

<DIV>Its pretty easy for an illusionist to say that its not important. You dont have a spell thats a MUST have m1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Charm is atleast as important for coercers as the pets are for summoners. And all our eggs are in 1 basket.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you dont have charm m1 you can forget it, you are not a coercer.</DIV>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JackAll wrote:<BR> <DIV>Its pretty easy for an illusionist to say that its not important. You dont have a spell thats a MUST have m1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Charm is atleast as important for coercers as the pets are for summoners. And all our eggs are in 1 basket.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you dont have charm m1 you can forget it, you are not a coercer.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually I have spent probably 100+p on all of my masters. From t6-t7. Probably more then that. I am just low balling the figure.

[JackAll]

<P>Yes well I have all but brakedown and domination as m1.</P> <P>I would gladly have it the other way around</P>

[feronia28]

Okay, if you find that you must have a master  Domination spell in order to play your Coercer, even as a soloer, perhaps you need to reroll.  Many Coercers want a Domination master 1 and that's okay, however saying you are gonna quit the class because you can't play without it, only indicates ya suck and the enchanter community will do much better without you.

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> feronia28 wrote:<BR>Okay, if you find that you must have a master  Domination spell in order to play your Coercer, even as a soloer, perhaps you need to reroll.  Many Coercers want a Domination master 1 and that's okay, however saying you are gonna quit the class because you can't play without it, only indicates ya suck and the enchanter community will do much better without you.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am guessing you don't have a Master?

[Noct1234]

<div></div>It's way beyond rerolling for me. This is a horrible nerf 1.5 years after the game was released. If this was going to happen at all it should have happened at LU13. I've watched two Dominates roll by for about 1.5p.  I thought, no big deal, only a 5 min duration upgrade. I thought, wow, a level 1 Master mez for 17g is a good deal since I will probably use it at level 70. Little did I know about the wonderful joyous surprise SOE had waiting for me a month later. I didn't start my coercer until I had a Master 1 Coerce in the bank. I was using Adept III befriend before that and the difference was night and day. In the ruins I was charming solo orcs to kill each other. Once my pet did a little damage, I would start with my nukes.  My pet would last 2-3 fights this way. On the first Armor Quest in the Commonlands with M1, each skele crusader took 3-5 sec to kill, and my pet would take no real damage. 1 nuke from pet, 1 nuke from me, a small nuke or a swing later and they were dead. I could and did clear all the solo crusaders in the CL without stopping. I soloed the ghost lady as soon as I turned 20.  I didn't even go back to FP to get the armor quest first. I was impressed with the class and the master charm. Then I went into FG with a group.  I didn't use a pet, just group and DPS buffs on the tank and assassin. The two priests out dpsed me every fight. You say I should reroll if I require a Master charm. I say reroll if you DON'T have a Master charm by 33 (Beguile). A normal Master for another class is about 15% better than an Adept III.  A master charm is 300% better. In some sense, the charm master is worth 20 other masters. A coercer without a master charm is just a minor league player biding their time for their big break to the majors. I don't know what your goal was when you started your Coercer, but mine was to become a better player by learning to solo white and yellow names. And now, despite 2 months of preparation, watching the broker, buying Coercer masters, researching tactics, etc, I won't be able to after level 53. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Noct1234 on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:48 PM</span>

[Roriondesexiest]

<DIV>Anyone on test server acutally test this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I looked everywhere and can't find where any of our charm spells are being touched, I read through all the notes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dahlrek]

Currently on test the Charm effect itself does not have increased resistability, but the 3s break mez does. Sadly, level 1 mez is now useless at 70 (or any level above 20, really). <div></div>

[Apathyloves]

From what I've been told SoE keeps stats on and tracks a variety of statistics.  Additionally, if they think they wanted to look something up, I've been told by a dev that they could look up pretty much anything we could imagine and more. My question / point / respose to op is... Do you think they track how many minutes/clock time people accumulate for a given class?  Or put another way,  do you think they measure the response to changes by observing how many and how much people still play? My guess is no.  I personally feel lucky that I made it to level 68 before this (potential) boom landed.  According to the last post, it seems to have which means for charming my corpse flame, I'm [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed. Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to mana battery I go, nektulos.willbender <div></div>

[Belaythien]

There is another point that worries me: What about our lvl 52 stun proc or the mem wipe (55 or 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />?If there won't be an upgrade the next time they increase the level cap what's going to happen to those spells?Overall it's a sad excuse to force us to upgrade our spells. They force us to get a higher spell that's no better than the old just because their game mechanics doesn't support a real upgrade ... It's a SOE!

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belaythien wrote:<BR>There is another point that worries me: What about our lvl 52 stun proc or the mem wipe (55 or 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />?<BR><BR>If there won't be an upgrade the next time they increase the level cap what's going to happen to those spells?<BR><BR>Overall it's a sad excuse to force us to upgrade our spells. They force us to get a higher spell that's no better than the old just because their game mechanics doesn't support a real upgrade ... It's a SOE!<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would imagine they have the power to change certain spells to not follow this trend. However, how would you change things instead of making the change they are? Could you offer some suggestions that may prove better?

[Noct1234]

It seems to me if they make spells automatically become useless, then that should be the only variation. That means that the duration of these spells should be identical or extremely close from level 1 to level 70. I.E. every mez, from slumber on, has a duration of 30 sec or whatever, and the early ones become useless over time. It's obvious that they made this change because the duration difference is not enough to offset the power savings. If you chose a Master 2 mez at level 14 or 24 (or even better a master 1 level 1 mez), why use any other mez for the rest of the game? The real question is why it took them 1.5 years to figure this out and why it was almost stealthed in at the tail of LU24 testing. <div></div>

[ag]

Anyone else having trouble solo'ing due to the loss of our second root?

[soltarirayv]

<DIV>I'm a pvp coercer.  My spells aren't upgraded.  The only place to really pvp well at is in Bonemire to get the Corpse Candle/Flame.  I'd have been able to stick with coercer though if they hadn't nerfed the CC spells.  My guildmates and I are betraying to Qeynos and then going back to Exile to become Illusionist.  At least then we can pvp in a normal zone.  What a nerf of coercers on a pvp server.  </DIV>

[PluvianMi]

<P>Frankly, I'm starting to think that all spells ought to behave like the master strikes and scale upward in ability as you gain levels instead of having to scribe new spells that do the same thing ever 14 or 20 levels with the exception of supposedly being scaled somewhat to be better than the previous version.</P> <P>The scaling as you level would get rid of the problems of having and M1 in one Tier and not being able to upgrade the spell until you find an M1 quality of the next version.</P> <P>It would also take a lot of the randomness out of the game since there is no skill involved in some people being able to find M1 versions of spells months before others find the same thing.</P>

[JackAll]

<P>I would say that charm is fine like normal.</P> <P>Last night my group buffed cent did 3100dps on sothis</P> <P>On normal fights is was around 1100 dps</P> <P>It was charmed with dominate m1</P> <P> </P>

[Belaythien]

<div><blockquote><hr>JackAll wrote:<div></div> <p>I would say that charm is fine like normal.</p>[...]<hr></blockquote>Charm spells don't have a text saying that resistance increases at such and such level for the charm itself. The way I read it the increased resistance text only applies to the short stun after charm expires. That would be a further threat if you charm things like triple up mobs in HoF. Then again the final stun never really worked 100% before so it's not much of a change, is it?</div>

[sholmes983]

Wow, they really need to do something about the drop rate on masters or this is going to go over badly.  I mean, it's never really been an issue of cost, the only reason why I use M1 Beguile is because I've never seen a higher level charm master drop.  I check multiple times a day every day I log in and have NEVER seen one.  The sad fact is is that most of them are probably saved by guilds for their coercers and never see the broker.  It's not just coercer spells either, but for us it just happens to be our staple spell.<div></div>