Difference between illusionists and coercers? Stick with illus or make a coercer

[RpTheHotrod]

<DIV>I have a 40 illusionist. However, my brother got the game and is now 25ish. Should I create a coercer and level fast to catch up? Or should I just mentor down from 40? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the main difference?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group is an SK, warden, and necro. Me being coer or illus</DIV>

[Apathyloves]

<div><blockquote><hr>RpTheHotrod wrote:<div>I have a 40 illusionist. However, my brother got the game and is now 25ish. Should I create a coercer and level fast to catch up? Or should I just mentor down from 40? </div> <div> </div> <div>What is the main difference?</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Group is an SK, warden, and necro. Me being coer or illus</div><hr></blockquote>If money were no issue and I mean plat coming out your ears, I'd say switch.  But I'm a cheap [Removed for Content] (some call me fat too) so I say stay illusionist.  If you want to compare coercer v. illusionists, MANY threads on that.  If your goal is the best for the group, being able to help level them is a much better help then the trade-off of grinding up.  Unless, of course, you are addicted to the ding.  In that case, just level alts to 7 all day.  =)nektulos.willbender</div>

[Olondy]

<div></div>I'd say biggest difference is charm vs perm pet.  Do you like the constant danger of a breakable charm? It will wipe you or your group on occasion.  If you like consistency and certainty Id stick with Illusionist. Charm can be much more powerful than the illusion pet, but it also can break at the worst times and destroy all your plans. Other things: Coercers get a big aoe damage/stun, Illusionist Stifle/stun.  Illusionist tends to add damage to your group, while coercer do damage reactives on what enemies do. Once again, with the illusionist you have more consistency and control. With Coercer its more dependent upon what random enemies do. Coercers bump up melee dps. Illusionist haste melee. Coercers are better at power regen/manipulation. Illusionist are better at crowd control. Though both are excellent at either. Coercers are better stunners. Illusionist better stiflers. Coercers can cast mez while mez, stunned or stifled. Illusionist can cast mez while moving. Overall Id say illusionist are masters of tactical elegance. Coercers juggle hand-grendades. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Olondyre on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 PM</span>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Olondyre wrote:<BR> I'd say biggest difference is charm vs perm pet.  Do you like the constant danger of a breakable charm? It will wipe you or your group on occasion.  If you like consistency and certainty Id stick with Illusionist. Charm can be much more powerful than the illusion pet, but it also can break at the worst times and destroy all your plans.<BR><BR>Other things: Coercers get a big aoe damage/stun, Illusionist Stifle/stun.  Illusionist tends to add damage to your group, while coercer do damage reactives on what enemies do. Once again, with the illusionist you have more consistency and control. With Coercer its more dependent upon what random enemies do.<BR><BR>Coercers bump up melee dps. Illusionist haste melee.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Coercers are better at power regen/manipulation</FONT>. Illusionist are better at crowd control. Though both are excellent at either.<BR><BR>Coercers are better stunners. Illusionist better stiflers.<BR><BR>Coercers can cast mez while mez, stunned or stifled. Illusionist can cast mez while moving.<BR><BR>Overall Id say illusionist are masters of tactical elegance. Coercers juggle hand-grendades.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Olondyre on <SPAN class=date_text>04-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:36 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Generally this is a good summation but the bit in Red is incorrect. The two enchanters are almost exactly equal. If anything illusionists have the edge because Savant is useful more often than Channel.</P> <P>The only key bit you have missed is that coercers have an aggro boost. Which in a sense balances out the better crowd control of the illusionist.</P> <P>Charm is big for a coercer but the illusionist has the edge in several ways [for example, they have better power drains but then who cares?] If you are a min/maxer and don't like charm then go with illusionist. If you love charm then go coercer. Otherwise flip a coin.</P> <P> </P>

[Olondy]

Thanks encanta. Was not aware illusionists get a beholder's eye type line to supplement clarity. And yes, forgot obout the coercer aggro booster buff. <div></div>

[Tanatus]

<P>Here is a deal</P> <P>Illusionist are always support class (buffs/procs/ect) - Coercer are top dogs of DPS (charm/reactives) everywhere but raids difference about same as between guardian (illusionist) vs berserker (coercer)</P> <P>Outside of raid - only necro can match DPS of coercer (with right pet of course and right quality of charm) and not always. Coercer is better at Crowd Control and Crackdealing, Illusionist better at Buffing and benifiting from Proc spells</P> <P>Lets see what coercer have in each department</P> <P>DPS: Main sourse is charm and you are good as coercer as quality of your charm - just to give you some actual numbers - lvl 65-67 warlock type pet (vaults) typically sustein ~700DPS. Secondary sourse DPS for coercer is reactives and dots, lastly 2 [Removed for Content] nukes (but with kickers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - one nuke instantly interupt target other root target for sizable time frame), At master lvl of spell (charm and reactive) coercer lvl 70 have no visible problem susteining 1000-1200DPS (except for raids - twice lower and except for HOF - at least twice higher)</P> <P>CC - here where coercers truely shine over illusionists - 2 roots on independent timer both very strong (and 1 is with a kicker - its mez target for 12s upon impact, second root is nuke), single target mez can be casted in any condition of coercer (aka stunned, stifled, pacified) AoE mez requied toughtstone to cast but believe me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> you will destoy litterally thousands of em (byproduct of using reactives). 2 single target stuns - one relatively fast to cast (2.0) and fairly long - up to 11s (at lvl 70) - it also drain visible amount of power from target (~1800 at lvl 70). Second stun is uninteruptalbe albeit longish casting time (3.0) also with kicker its deagro coercer (-1224 at lvl 70). Next coercer have quete a unique reactive stun - it stun target on succesfull melee attack up to 4s up to 3 times. Last but not least is PBAE stun sort of "signature" stun of coercer it do over 2K damage on every target around coercer and stun em for 7s (great spell for cleaning trash mobs in high DPS groups then you pulling multiple groups at same time). Buttom line - coercer have 2 mez, 2 roots, 4 stuns</P> <P>Debuffing: we dont have much in this department, yet we have broadband resistance debuff to any form of magical damage by - 1024 (at lvl 70) which is not as good as brigands dispatch but last longer and stacks, one of our dots carry around same debuff but vs. magic, mental and divine damage only (aka arcane). Also we have so-so stifle 14s duration 25s recast</P> <P>Buffing: we somethat ok in this department +85int/agi (at lvl 70), around 700 mitingation vs. magic/mental/divine + some power pool increase), +74% DPS (thats a kicker melee specially assasins and bralwers will sell you thier firstborn for this buff), gimpy damage shield (100% chance to proc if target take damage) ~300 damage and sort of coercers raid (tm) buff +hate (which turns to be working on every action including CA/Spells/Autoattack)</P> <P>Crack: here we are class wide champs lol: 42/tic Ease (permanent) 16/tic (Beholder Eye - need recast every 10min, eat toughstone) and group power tap (which add on average as long as we in combat another 30power/tic)</P> <P>Bottom line if you like more playing support classes oriented more on buffing others then illusionist way to go, if you like DPS with adrealine rush (heh exist few pets that can kill you in single blow) then coercer should be your choice</P>

[Aranieq]

<P>What is the illusionist version of beholder's eye.. I don't believe they have one.  Only out of curiosity what does savante do?  Because channel just equalizes group power not actualy regen.  </P> <P>As far as make up goes.. if you like the illusionist just mentor down with you in the group they will catch up fast, if you are interseted in how the other half plays make a new coercer and fool around with it some, lvl 25 can be got in a weekend.  </P> <P>I myself duo'd mostly with my husband an SK.. I can say it made for a great combination with the hate buff and offensive reactives.  As a plate tank he got hit pretty often and absorbed a lot of it, so together we had a great dps combo (after I learned not to permastun the mobs =p )  This is only from my point of view since when we play with our illusionist bud his reactives tend to proc quite a bit of dps on the SK as well.. Once you learn to love and hate charm equally you will see the dps is excellent for a small group like you described, if you that sort of thing interests you.</P>

[feronia28]

Savante lowers total power consumptionSame stuff different style, we feed power, illusionist prevent power consumption.  It always comes down to how the total power points are being spent by the group,  I'm not very good when I'm with all caster type group (even though I still get placed in caster raid section group)  I give better power to melee.  Like I stated there are small differences but nothing that sticks out in my mind other than Charm.<div></div>

[Encantador]

<DIV>AFAIK Illusionists don't get a Mind's Eye equivalent. So looking only at this coercers are 10 to 12 power per tick better. Or its like having an extra FT2 for everyone in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Savante reduces the power usage of the group by a large amount for 30secs. I don't know the current percentage. I have a figure of 66% in my mind as being about right. This in my view is very powerful. For 30 secs you use roughly one third of your power. It is balanced mainly by having a large recast time (150secs?). How much power can a wizzie/warlock chew through in 30 secs? In the right circumstances one hell of a lot more than the 60 or so power given by ME in that time. On the other hand Mind's Eye is always ticking away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Channel loses power from a group [the master version does not lose much if any], is hardly ever useful in a group, and is not that useful in a raid. I raid quite a bit and there have been many nights when I have not cast it at all. However, when you meet a mob that power drains your tank it can literally be a raid saver. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the 'average' coercer (is there such a thing?) Mind's Eye plus Channel is not as valuable as Savante. <BR></DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>encanta wrote:<DIV>AFAIK Illusionists don't get a Mind's Eye equivalent. So looking only at this coercers are 10 to 12 power per tick better. Or its like having an extra FT2 for everyone in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Savante reduces the power usage of the group by a large amount for 30secs. I don't know the current percentage. I have a figure of 66% in my mind as being about right. This in my view is very powerful. For 30 secs you use roughly one third of your power. It is balanced mainly by having a large recast time (150secs?). How much power can a wizzie/warlock chew through in 30 secs? In the right circumstances one hell of a lot more than the 60 or so power given by ME in that time. On the other hand Mind's Eye is always ticking away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Channel loses power from a group [the master version does not lose much if any], is hardly ever useful in a group, and is not that useful in a raid. I raid quite a bit and there have been many nights when I have not cast it at all. However, when you meet a mob that power drains your tank it can literally be a raid saver. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the 'average' coercer (is there such a thing?) Mind's Eye plus Channel is not as valuable as Savante. <BR></DIV><hr></blockquote> Well, Actually Illusionists do get an equivalent to Mind's Eye, it's the Devitalizing Stare line. However, they do not get an equivalent to the Consuming Thoughts line in terms of when you get it. But anyway, Coercers >> Illusionists in power regen. And channel uses 0 power with the master, and can be very useful in a grind group. Tank nearly out of power, you already used mana cloak, sooo what do you do, you hit channel, and the grind never stops.

[Manyak]

<DIV>coercer mana regen > illu (we had a whole discussion about this on the illu boards, did all the calculations and figured it out)</DIV> <DIV>coercer stuns > illu (by far)</DIV> <DIV>coercer stifles < illu</DIV> <DIV>coercer mezzes < illu (only because of one gimpy mezz, but i guess it counts for something)</DIV> <DIV>coercer DPS < illu (illus parse up to 1.4k on single targets with only the AGI line, probably more with the crit AAs too. proc nerf will change it though)</DIV>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> encanta wrote:<BR> <DIV>AFAIK Illusionists don't get a Mind's Eye equivalent. So looking only at this coercers are 10 to 12 power per tick better. Or its like having an extra FT2 for everyone in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the 'average' coercer (is there such a thing?) Mind's Eye plus Channel is not as valuable as Savante. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Well, Actually Illusionists do get an equivalent to Mind's Eye, it's the Devitalizing Stare line. However, they do not get an equivalent to the Consuming Thoughts line in terms of when you get it. But anyway, Coercers >> Illusionists in power regen. And channel uses 0 power with the master, and can be very useful in a grind group. Tank nearly out of power, you already used mana cloak, sooo what do you do, you hit channel, and the grind never stops.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Devitalizing Stare line is equivalent to the Gorging Thoughts line.... see the illusionist boards post by Zitha in a thread called 'Re: Age old debate ... coercer/illu'. I would cut and paste it but each time I try and post my reply keeps being rejected.</P> <P>There is a very good summary of the differences there. I happen to think that Savante used by a carefull illusionist saves far more power than Mind's Eye generates. So for me the edge is to illusionists but we are talking so little difference it is not worth worrying about and is certainly <FONT color=#ffff00>NOT</FONT> a reason to choose one class over the other.</P> <P> </P> <P>Edited to put in a missing NOT.</P><p>Message Edited by encanta on <span class=date_text>05-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>encanta wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> encanta wrote:<BR> <DIV>AFAIK Illusionists don't get a Mind's Eye equivalent. So looking only at this coercers are 10 to 12 power per tick better. Or its like having an extra FT2 for everyone in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the 'average' coercer (is there such a thing?) Mind's Eye plus Channel is not as valuable as Savante. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Well, Actually Illusionists do get an equivalent to Mind's Eye, it's the Devitalizing Stare line. However, they do not get an equivalent to the Consuming Thoughts line in terms of when you get it. But anyway, Coercers >> Illusionists in power regen. And channel uses 0 power with the master, and can be very useful in a grind group. Tank nearly out of power, you already used mana cloak, sooo what do you do, you hit channel, and the grind never stops.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Devitalizing Stare line is equivalent to the Gorging Thoughts line.... see the illusionist boards post by Zitha in a thread called 'Re: Age old debate ... coercer/illu'. I would cut and paste it but each time I try and post my reply keeps being rejected.</P> <P>There is a very good summary of the differences there. I happen to think that Savante used by a carefull illusionist saves far more power than Mind's Eye generates. So for me the edge is to illusionists but we are talking so little difference it is not worth worrying about and is certainly a reason to choose one class over the other.</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> It might be similiar to the Consuming Thoughts line, however it is still supposed to be the balance to Mind's Eye. Look at what level it's given, hrm, look at that Level 48, lets look at Mind's Eye, Level 48. Ahha, therefore those lines are the equivalents for balance. We gain more DPS at 32(Construct), Coercers gain more power regen(Consuming Thoughts). Therefore it is the balance to it. Whether it's more like Consuming Thoughts or not, the way the game was balanced it was balanced against Mind's Eye.

[Wrapye]

In terms of emergency power regen, there is also Mana Cloak + Channel.  Cast mana cloak, let the tank power up by getting hit, then redistribute the power to everyone via channel.

[Aranieq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>coercer mana regen > illu (we had a whole discussion about this on the illu boards, did all the calculations and figured it out) </DIV> <DIV>coercer stuns > illu (by far)</DIV> <DIV>coercer stifles < illu </DIV> <DIV>coercer mezzes < illu (only because of one gimpy mezz, but i guess it counts for something)</DIV> <DIV>coercer DPS < illu (illus parse up to 1.4k on single targets with only the AGI line, probably more with the crit AAs too. proc nerf will change it though)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I feel this is a very acurate basic overview.</P> <P>obviously both classes do any of these withing a small amount of each other and even tip the scales in the oposite dirrection in circumstances bus as a whole I have been seeing the same.. the dps and regen parts are very situational issue though i think of them all that can sway one way or the other very easily when compaired to matched players (ie with similar aa's/gear/spell quality).  </P> <P>On savante... how much of a power regen redux is it at certain levels and what kind of recast time is it? This sounds like a minds eye type equivalent.  Is it group or single?<BR></P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well does Illusionist have AE mez? - no <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Coercer do so that should put the end who have better mezes.... Toss here fact that coercer mez can be casted under any condition - aka stun, stifle, pacify - illusionist dont anything like that. And oh almost fogot coercer primary root have 12s mez built-in ... and its not on termination but on impact!</DIV>

[Peglegcrook]

<div></div>Savante--well, you guys are close, it does a 50% decrease in pwr consumption [adept 3], with a 2min recast! its funny that i stumbled into this thread because ive been debating between rolling a coercer, or possibly implementing the new betrayal system.  i have been trying to find the most info about the 'raid coercer' vs. 'raid illusionist'.  i think that i offer a lot to most any grp in a raid setting, but am very curious of the coercer raid utility.  although i like a few of the coercer spells, channel specifically, i think that at first glance i prefer my illusionist abilities. a spell like channel would be nice in those low power fights, but in most cases if we are all oop, there is only one mob left so mana cloak just isnt very effective to use in the previously stated "mana cloak--channel" fashion.  im gonna keep tabs on this forumthanksPS....as far as grp mez, we got one.  and as far as a root/mez, we dont, but we have a nuke/mez <div></div><p>Message Edited by Peglegcrook on <span class=date_text>05-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 PM</span>

[Wrapye]

In raids I'm in the MT group due to +aggro% buff.  Master 1 of the T5 spell (last one we get) is +49% hate generation.  The only time the MT loses aggro then is when a wizard hits with a 15K+ Fusion.  In that case the mage dies, and the mob is right back on the MT.Our raid illusionist also comments on how the coercer memwipe > illusionist version.  Amnesia it a direct attack on the mob, stuns (stifles in the case of epics) for 1.5s, after which the epic has just the coercer in the hate list.  It is very handy to reset a single named epic encounter if the MT goes down and aggro starts going all over the place.  Sacrificial coercer to the rescue <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Aranieq]

<P>Illy's get an ae mezz I believe, tantalus.</P> <P>They have an extra single target mezz on different time wich is similar to our confoundment I believe(our is 7s stun cast while moving uniteruptible)</P>

[Ramladu]

I think one thing that's missing here is that charm is useful not only as an impromptu pet, but I find it can be an absolute lifesaver as a CC spell.  In small groups/duos and even sometimes when soloing, it serves as a super-mez on multiple mob encounters.  In groups, unless the perfect pet is available, I usually find myself using up more than 2 concentration with buffs.  However, it's not hard to cancel a spell quick and charm an add in an emergency.  Not only does it take a mob out of the fight (and makes it help, too), but charming that last mob when everyone is at little to no power allows you to leave combat and regen before you kill it.  Obviously it's limited in that named mobs and plenty others are immune, but when it works it really works.I tend to use charm more often like this in groups than as a pet - even at Adept 3 charmed pets don't do enough damage to be worth the risk associated with them and the inability to charm in an emergency.  At M1 a good caster pet is definitely worth lugging around with a group, though.I personally could never play an illusionist after playing a Coercer - charm alone is just such a cool spell. Maybe that's just me, though.  I'm not all about raw effectiveness - both will do what they're designed for just fine, and for all I know illusionists do it better (I play FP side on a pvp server, not too easy to make a comparison).   I just think playing with charm is too much fun.<div></div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Just looked trough Illi spells line dont see one ....</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<DIV>Just looked trough Illi spells line dont see one ....</DIV><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, but if you can't see "(23) Phantasmal Splendor >> (37) Phantasmal Grandeur >> (51) Phantasmal Brilliance *54* >> (65) Phantasmal Resplendance", with:<img src=http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Phantasmal%20Resplendance.JPG>Then I dunno what to say.

[Peglegcrook]

<div></div><div></div>well put Pinski!! as far as our mezzes, we get 2 single target that are castable while moving [one a shorter duration-longer recast; and one regular--separate timers], and the grp mez that pinski has so effortlessly found and shown above.  as far as stuns, it seems that coercers do have the upper hand as far as i can tell, but im very happy with my stun abillity-except on raid where [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near all my spells are 'does not affect epic'-we have a grp stun with a short duration, then a single target stun/power drain with a pretty nice duration, and a single target stifle/power drain--not to mention our stifles and stuns that are linked with other damage spells.Tana -- probably best not to argue with a few illusionists about what spells they do, or dont have.  weve played our class for quite some time, and i feel confident that i know what spells i have-and pretty sure Pinski is in the same boat.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Peglegcrook on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Indeed missed this one ... </DIV> <DIV>Still 50s on last of our mezes in conjuction of nature of that mez... I repeat it castable in ANY condition of coercer except then coercer dead.... Stun, Stifle, Pacify on me but I still able cast my mez - no matter what. Illusionist dont have anything like that... As for uninteruptible spells lol - we have confoudment line of stuns that have excatly same pathern like illusionists mez its castable on the run. Plus IMO it is pointless to separate stuns roots and mezes - its all tools of CC and coercer far superior here ...</DIV>

[Peglegcrook]

<hr size="2" width="100%">        Plus IMO it is pointless to separate stuns roots and mezes - its all tools of CC and coercer far superior here ...<hr size="2" width="100%">what are you talking about separating stuns/roots/mezzes? yes, everyone knows they are all CC, no one is debating that, but "far superior here..." that is the discussion.i dont know that im convinced that coercers are better in CC, i would MUCH rather have 2 mezzes on different timers that are able to be cast while in motion, and stick for 20-45 seconds than have a stun line that lasts for 7 seconds.....i will readily admit that the coercer has better power regen, which is very important, but we do better DPS, from every forum i read.  so that must be the balance between the two classes.if you want to list me all of your CC abilities, i will be more than happy to compare with ours to actually see who is better at CC.<div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aranieq wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>coercer mana regen > illu (we had a whole discussion about this on the illu boards, did all the calculations and figured it out) </DIV> <DIV>coercer stuns > illu (by far)</DIV> <DIV>coercer stifles < illu </DIV> <DIV>coercer mezzes < illu (only because of one gimpy mezz, but i guess it counts for something)</DIV> <DIV>coercer DPS < illu (illus parse up to 1.4k on single targets with only the AGI line, probably more with the crit AAs too. proc nerf will change it though)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I feel this is a very acurate basic overview.</P> <P>obviously both classes do any of these withing a small amount of each other and even tip the scales in the oposite dirrection in circumstances bus as a whole I have been seeing the same.. the dps and regen parts are very situational issue though i think of them all that can sway one way or the other very easily when compaired to matched players (ie with similar aa's/gear/spell quality).  </P> <P>On savante... how much of a power regen redux is it at certain levels and what kind of recast time is it? This sounds like a minds eye type equivalent.  Is it group or single?<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>sorry im late to post again <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>savante at master 1 is a 56% decrease in mana usage for the entire group for 30 seconds. Recast is 2.5 min.</DIV> <DIV>BUT im sure we all know what you guys can do with channel, although i dont dare mention it =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also, if u wanna compare CC and Mana spell lines, these are the coercer/illu equivalents:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CC:</DIV> <DIV>AoE Mezz - Exactly the same for both enchanters</DIV> <DIV>Single Mezz - Same mezz for both, difference is that the illu can cast while running, and the coercer can cast while stunned/stifled</DIV> <DIV>Single Mezz #2 - Coercers dont get this. But its a very short casting, very short duration, and long recast. Can only keep it active on one mob at a time.</DIV> <DIV>Stun+Mana drain - Illus drain mana instantly when casted, coercers drain it over time. Thats the only difference.</DIV> <DIV>Stifle+Mana drain - Same thing as the stun.</DIV> <DIV>Secondary Stun - Coercers get one that has an attached deaggro component and can be cast while running. Illusionists get a 4 target very short duration encounter stun.</DIV> <DIV>Uber lvl 50/70 spell - Coercers get a pbAoE 8-target 6-sec stun with DD, illus get a 12 sec encoutner stifle/dot with unlimited targets.</DIV> <DIV>Root - The coercer root pacifies, the illusionist root stifles.</DIV> <DIV>Memwipe - The coercer memwipe has a stun attached and hits instantly, the illusionist memwipe makes pets that take aggro and then the memwipe is applied at the end of the duration.</DIV> <DIV>Secondary nuke - The coercer nuke has a root attached to it, the illusionist one has a mezz attached to it.</DIV> <DIV>Pet - Just for the illus, the pet also helps with roots, stuns, stifles, and mana drains. Nothing serious or really controllable, but its still there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mana:</DIV> <DIV>Power Buff - Same for both (and all other mages too), just different resists. Illus give less mental resists, and coercers give less magic resists.</DIV> <DIV>Breeze - Same for both</DIV> <DIV>Secondary Breeze - Illus dont have it (Minds eye).</DIV> <DIV>Tertiary Mana regen (not counted towards cap) - Gorging thoughts for coercer (added int debuff), Devitalizing Gazes for Illus (added mana drain). Both give about the same regen (205 vs 217 per cast at master1), and have the same timers.</DIV> <DIV>Special Case Mana Spell - Illus get savante which reduces group mana usage for 30 sec, while coercers get channel (and i think we all know the channel bug by now)</DIV> <DIV>Mana Cloak - Same for both</DIV>

[Encantador]

<DIV>Don't ilusionists also get an instant cast PBAE mezz ? Supposed to be equivalent to the coercer PBAE fear (what a piece of junk).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and the timers on the group power boosts (tertiary mana regen) are not quite the same, nor is the power cost of the spell, which makes them even more even.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see very little reason to prefer one over the other except that illusionists do way more damage in a raid. This may change with the latest LU.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Encantador]

<P>Oh and I for one do not know the Channel bug. If there is one then please publicise it so it can be fixed.</P> <P> </P>

[Olondy]

Seeing what Savant can do compared to channel, I would say now that illusionist have slightly better power regen than coercers once they get Savant.  Crowd control would be close but I would say illusionist gets a large advantage there too by having a permanent enchanter pet.  Of course in certain situations coercers can have a CC pet too, that does more damage as well, but only situational.      As I said in my first post, in terms of consistency illusionists seem superior to coercers. With a coercer you trade that for the chance of having a tremendous pet on occasion (when you do you are hands down the most powerful class in the game).  Also, once you learn how to use possession effectively you can do some amazing things as well. So if you want more consistent effectiveness and a "buffing" style, go illusionist. If you want less consistency, occasional awesomeness, and a "reactive to enemy" style, go Coercer. <div></div>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> encanta wrote:<BR> <P>Oh and I for one do not know the Channel bug. If there is one then please publicise it so it can be fixed.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you cast channel while a member of your grp is dead...allmembers of the group seem to become full on mana.

[Peglegcrook]

<div></div>Awesome job DaMutationvery impressed with what you've done here, and want to discuss a few of the spells, and which are more effective.  these are out of order, but you get the jist.               <hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffff00">Memwipe - The coercer memwipe has a stun attached and hits instantly, the illusionist memwipe makes pets that take aggro and then the memwipe is applied at the end of the duration.</font> <hr size="2" width="100%"> imo, the Illusionist version is more effective, it affects epics [which im sure the memwipe part of the coercers does, but most likely not the stun], and gives the grp about 8 seconds to cast rez and rebuff the tank that has died.  granted the coercer version is a stun, but does it affect epic? and doesnt the coercer almost always die before the MT can get aggro back?  i would say abou 80% of the time i use my "illusory allies" it works to perfection--the entire encounter targets the pets, they stick around long enough to get the MT back up, everyone stops attacking, and the MT gets the aggro back instantly on memwipe at termination.  the other 20% of the time it is used, the memwipe still works, but the tank isnt brought up in time, and i do die...i think that is a fair trade off--80/20.  <hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffff00">Secondary Stun - Coercers get one that has an attached deaggro component and can be cast while running. Illusionists get a 4 target very short duration encounter        stun. </font> <hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">interesting, so i can only assume on the coercer version that the only component of this spell that affects epic is the personal de-aggro, which seems VERY nice, but for a coercer, almost wasted.  i dont think ive ever seen a coercer grab aggro in raid, the DPS they do doesnt seem to gain enough hate to have this problem.  yes, with the right pet, they can own dps parses, but that pet draws his own hate.  dont get me wrong, i love that spell, but i feel like its kind of wasted, and if given the opportunity to have that instead of my 4 target 7 second stun, i would probably stick with mine, it just seems more useful.  the 7 second stun on 4 encounter gives me enough time to cast all of my mezzes, </font></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">my 1.5 sec cast grp mez, </font></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">my .5 sec cast single target and my 1.5 sec cast single target.  seems like a no brainer </font></font> <hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffff00">Uber lvl 50/70 spell - Coercers get a pbAoE 8-target 6-sec stun with DD, illus get a 12 sec encoutner stifle/dot with unlimited targets.</font> <hr size="2" width="100%">well, depending on the amount of dmg this stun does, it seems pretty neat, but NO WAY i would give up my Solar Shower at master.  again its probably got something to do with the fact that the stun on the coercer and the stifle on the illusionist will not affect epics....so it comes down to which is better damage?  illusionist by far, it does so much damage in 12 seconds, to the whole encounter, no matter how many there are, it is way more useful than a single DD pn an encounter and would theoretically draw less aggro, since ours is a DoT. <font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff"> </font></font> <hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffff00">Single Mezz - Same mezz for both, difference is that the illu can cast while running, and the coercer can cast while stunned/stifled</font> <hr size="2" width="100%">im torn here, it would be awesome to be able to cast a mez while stunned/stifled, but very rarely am i stunned/stifled outside of the raid fights, and once again mezzes dont affect epics, so its a toss up.  so the act of being able to be on the run and mez vs. being able to cast a mez while stunned/stifled--both seem nice and both are innaffective on epics.  <hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffff00">Single Mezz #2 - Coercers dont get this. But its a very short casting, very short duration, and long recast. Can only keep it active on one mob at a time.</font> <hr size="2" width="100%">everything else seems very even except the coercer has nothing to run against this....i use this mez as a temporary mez, until i can get my other single target, longer duration on a mob, unless there are a whole lot that im mezzing.  if this is the only REAL diffence between the 2 classes, it proves Illusionists are better at CC simply because we have an extra mez [cc] that coercers dont, therefore better CC. this is a great thread, keep em coming! edit ** these statements obviously assume that the skill level of the illusionist and coercer are  similar.  without a doubt if you have an uber  coercer and a crappy illusionist there will be no question who has better CC.<span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Peglegcrook on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 AM</span>

[Barobra]

<DIV>Illusionists CC - (very simply put)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>1 long duration mez (<STRONG>around 50 seconds at level 70</STRONG>), can not be interupted, can cast while running. (<STRONG>6 second recast</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 short duration mez (<STRONG>25 seconds</STRONG>) with a .5 cast time (which makes it great for that quick add that pops up...<STRONG>20 second recast</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 AE mez (only for that <STRONG>encounter</STRONG>) Can only effect up to 4 targets. Duration at t7 is 25 seconds. (<STRONG>10 second recast</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 TRUE ae mez plus decrease threat (<STRONG>6 second duration</STRONG>). It is barrier of intellect which was recently changed as was the coercer one which fears. (<STRONG>5 min recast</STRONG>)</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of these run seperatly and do not effect the other. So in total we technically have 4 mezzes at our disposal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just wanted to post a clear answer to what a good illusionist will use in a CC situation.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:57 AM</span>

[soho]

<DIV>"imo, the Illusionist version is more effective, it affects epics [which im sure the memwipe part of the coercers does, but most likely not the stun], and gives the grp about 8 seconds to cast rez and rebuff the tank that has died"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionist Mem Blur certainly sounds better, although I'm still a bit noob and I've never seen it in action.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"dont get me wrong, i love that spell, but i feel like its kind of wasted, and if given the opportunity to have that instead of my 4 target 7 second stun, i would probably stick with mine, it just seems more useful.  the 7 second stun on 4 encounter gives me enough time to cast all of my mezzes, my 1.5 sec cast grp mez, my .5 sec cast single target and my 1.5 sec cast single target.  seems like a no brainer"</DIV> <DIV>First off, isn't it a 4 second stun? As for the spells, a more apt comparison in terms of usefulness vs. standard spell to spell would be with Sonic Boom. Enjoy your single encounter stun while Sonic Boom stuns up to 8 for 7 seconds with good damage to each =p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"well, depending on the amount of dmg this stun does, it seems pretty neat, but NO WAY i would give up my Solar Shower at master.  again its probably got something to do with the fact that the stun on the coercer and the stifle on the illusionist will not affect epics....so it comes down to which is better damage?  illusionist by far, it does so much damage in 12 seconds, to the whole encounter, no matter how many there are, it is way more useful than a single DD pn an encounter and would theoretically draw less aggro, since ours is a DoT."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solar Shower does 450 * 7 for 3150 with a 40 second recast, Sonic Boom does 2200 with a 30 second recast. They seem pretty comparable for damage. I'd also argue that multiple encounters is a more common occurance than single encounters with more than 8 members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really the biggest differences are Beholder's Eye (14.6 pow/tick) vs. Savante (56% power reduction for 30 sec, 2 min recast), which isn't even a contest, especially on raids. I mean, Bard + Coercer = every healer/caster in the group overcaps mana regen anyway. Enraging Demeanor (49% aggro buff, fellating devs for master version required) vs. Synergism (420 average proc, 33%), which goes to Enraging Demeanor in most cases, but means only one Coercer is necessary for raids, while illusionists can run 2 NP with casters. Impetus (74% DPS) vs. Rapidity (65% haste), obvious but actually minor in hindsight =p Tribulation (-46 to all melee skills) vs. Marred Psyche (1024 magic resistance debuff), depends on if you're caster heavy, healer short, need more damage, need more survivability, but both are useful. Ego Burst (DD root) vs. Tumor (DD mez), which goes to Ego Burst in my opinion, as stacking 5% roots never break while a single 5% root is an unreliable thing, what with so many mobs becoming unmezzable, and plenty of mezzes as is. Domination (charm) vs. Personae Mirror (pet), which isn't even a contest except for farming lower-level zones. And finally, some limited pet that I have no knowledge of vs. ???. The rest of our stuff is fairly comparable, with Illusionists having most of the personal damage edges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I must go cure myself of this boredom that I have inflicted upon myself =/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: MY BAD GUYS, I almost forgot the very definition of our classes... Possession (not much) vs. Phase (even less?). This one is too tough to call.. I realize that Phase is probably most Illusionist's most frequently cast spell, but sometimes you just need to let out your frustrations in /shout and then hope the GM agrees that punishment should be doled out in excess to to the vile orc pawn that was so coldly denigrating the zone's population =/</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Edit #2: I must be tired, I compared Savante to Beholder's eye... Obviously the apt comparison would be with Channel. Channel (evenly distributes power, 15 min recast) vs. Savante (56% power reduction for 30 sec, 2 min recast), Savante is far better for grinding due to recast. In raids Savante is better if your group is all evenly burning their power, Channel is better if the power levels are all over the place. I give the edge to Savante.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by sohobo on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[soho]

<DIV>I seemingly forgot the original question posed. Basically, in a group of 4 like that, Coercer is going to be far worse than Illusionist until the 40s, and then far better if you can find a decent master charm. SK can have aggro problems on occasion, which gives Coercer an edge, but I doubt it'd be a big problem since the Necromancer will be splitting aggro with his pet. One set of opposing forces is that already having the Illusionist means your group would level slightly faster with rotating mentoring and you'd be slightly more useful until they caught up to you, but, conversely, you'd find your Illusionist leveling very slowly and thus changing very slowly and you might get bored or burnt out. Weigh the risks and rewards in your own mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I'd reroll a Coercer if your group is very isolationist and you think it's a long-term thing, because in a 4 man group Coercer is going to be a large chunk more DPS than an Illusionist once you get a decent duration master charm and the level for good caster pets. If you think you'll be filling the group a lot or if you plan on joining a raiding guild eventually, then I'd stay Illusionist. The most important factor should probably be your gut, just what you feel will be best for you. Really they're more similar than not.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>In truth, theres a useful porpose for both the coercer and illusionist memwipe in raids. And each one comes with its own drawbacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionist Memwipe:</DIV> <DIV>Whats supposed to happen: Pets are summoned, and take aggro off the mob for 15 seconds, then the memwipe hits. The illusionist will still have slightly more aggro than evry1 else, but one taunt from a tank fixes that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What REALLY happens: Pets are summoned, and take aggro off the mob. Now, with all difficult raid mobs (nameds, etc), those pets die way before the memwipe occurs. Once the pets die, the illusionist retains the aggro from pet death (similar to summoners), and the mob attacks the illusionist. 95% of the time, the illusionist will die before the memwipe actually hits (see below). When this happens, it will be just as hard for a tank to get aggro back as it would have been before the illu casted it. So in reality, the raid only gets 5-10 seconds, and the illusionist gets to lose 10% on his armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot of 'bugs' happen withthis spell. See, the way the pets take aggro is from actually hitting the mob (kind of like the guardian's reinforcement). Now, when theres lots of mobs in an encounter, theres always going to be 1 or 2 mobs that the pets dont attack and keep aggro on, and they end up straying to the illusionist once one of the pets die. So this too leaves the raid/group with no memwipe. Or when one of the pets die, the mob comes after the illusionist until another pet hits it, and takes aggro back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Coercer Memwipe:</DIV> <DIV>Whats supposed to happen: The target is memwiped, and gets stunned for 1.5 sec so that it doesnt bounce around like crazy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What really happens: Since the stun doesnt affect epics, the mob goes straight after the coercer when he casts it. A good 95% of the time that means coercer death. But the thing is, when the memwipe is used, it completely resets the hate list. So, if after the memwipe is cast no1 else in the raid casts anything, the mob kills any1 who has a debuff on it, then resets leaving evry1 else alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each memwipe has its use, so its hard to say which one is better. They both give different effects, and are useful at different times.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Oh and one other thing i hear alot from people about the pet that i think needs to be cleared up....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The illusionist pet cant really be considered an extension of CC abilities...sure it stuns stifles and roots, but its not...how should i put this...situationally aware. It just casts all the spells whenever their timers are up. Imagine urself doing that, not caring if ur stunning and stifling a mob again while its already stunned. The only reliable thing from it is the root. So its really best to think of it as...a root+dot that can be easily killed. And its DPS isnt all that great either <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A coercer's charm has the potential to be a whole lot more powerful than the illusionists pet, hands down. Even if its just for the DPS.</DIV>

[Peglegcrook]

/agreei agree that the coercer pet has the POTENTIAL to do more damage, but that is IF you find the right pet, and keep him from killing the entire group.  as far as the illusionist pet not doing that great of DPS....?????....my pet, which i agree is very similar to a "rooting dot" actually does very good DPS if you think of it in those terms (a DOT).  if all i do is stand back and not do any damage in any given multiple mob encounter, my lvl 61 master pet can average 350+ DPS...doesnt seem like much, but as a dot? combine that with synergism on myself and casting, i can almost always average 900+ on multiple mob encounters (if i name my pet the same as me, with 3+ mobs).  if i take my pet down, i can add some extra buffs, but average less DPS.  so i prefer having that pet, that will NEVER turn on my group, and keep consistant DPS, rather than having the potential to do a sick amount, then he breaks, i have to stun/mez/recharm and lose all DPS.  another awesome thing is that i never have to go hunting for a good pet, and dont have to worry about anything being immune to charm...my pet can always be there.  <div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>well when taking DPS into consideration, i usually like to look at single target DPS more than AoE DPS since it matters alot more in most cases. plus, aoe DPS varies depending on a couple factors, such as which mobs are linked, did one resist, are they too far away from the target to get the effect of the spell, how many there are, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and im not saying one pet is better than the other, im just trying to correct this idea that people get about the illu pet when they hear that it has CC spells too. which pet realy IS better? /shrug, i guess it depends on what you care for more...DPS or roots.</DIV>

[Barobra]

<DIV>Personally I think the charm is better because it is also used as a CC tool. I would rather have dps then a root/stifle/stun in most situations. Solo is a little different. But, in most solo situations that I try to put myself into I would rather have the charm. I haven't played a coercer though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My question is....if a mob has immunity to stun/mez (most likely a t7 named...which are becoming more and more if you ever try to solo heroic named) can a coercer take him out? Because I can not. I have always used mez as my tactic in soloing heroic named. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Without mez, I don't see an Illusionist soloing a heroic named.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV><---Farms Earthcaller whatevr on shattered weir solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its 100% possible.</DIV>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV><---Farms Earthcaller whatevr on shattered weir solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its 100% possible.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>So how. I mean you can't stun them. So you are relying on root/IA I assume. In that case you have your pet up and hope that his root never breaks along with yours. The mob charges toward you and you use IA?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if your not using mez you need room. So I assume earthcaller is in an open area?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 AM</span>

[soho]

<DIV>I can solo every named in HoF save one, every named in PoA, all 6 named non-epic ^^^ in Bonemire, and about every heroic named everywhere else but the end guy in Vaults =p It's all stacking 5% roots, 1/400 chance for the mob to break roots simultaneously, just cancel all damage until you can recast if DD root breaks. Melee are obviously easy, but if you prepare well, have figured out the trick, and manage your pet with select silence use casters are pretty easy, too. Being stunnable technically makes casters much easier, but I've killed The Humator Harradin and The Carnovingian about 50 times in a row now without dying, so...</DIV>

[Tanatus]

Mind to enlight how you do Ancient Abomination?

[Manyak]

<DIV>is it really safe to give out our soloing strats openly on the boards where the devs can see them so they can figure out exactly where to nerf us? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Tanatus]

<P>AFAIK I have seen Ancient Abomination been soloed all the time by conjurers - for me thing I cannt overcome is AoE</P> <P>I have seen warden solo farming Nest including boss mob - cannt do that for same reason - AoE kill me</P> <P>Buisers been soloing high blue +++ heroics none stop w/o taking any damage - seen at breeding ground lvl 63 bruisers was killing none stop savage wurms - nearly zero damage been take</P> <P>Believe your or not but wizard can solo Lord Septimus and Ishran in HoF - no swat</P>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <P>AFAIK I have seen Ancient Abomination been soloed all the time by conjurers - for me thing I cannt overcome is AoE</P> <P>I have seen warden solo farming Nest including boss mob - cannt do that for same reason - AoE kill me</P> <P>Buisers been soloing high blue +++ heroics none stop w/o taking any damage - seen at breeding ground lvl 63 bruisers was killing none stop savage wurms - nearly zero damage been take</P> <P>Believe your or not but wizard can solo Lord Septimus and Ishran in HoF - no swat</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I solo'd those same worms non stop at lvl 58...charm glitch FTW</P> <P> </P>

[Melmoth1820]

he illusionist pet cant really be considered an extension of CC abilities...sure it stuns stifles and roots, but its not...how should i put this...situationally aware. It just casts all the spells whenever their timers are up. Imagine urself doing that, not caring if ur stunning and stifling a mob again while its already stunned. The only reliable thing from it is the root. So its really best to think of it as...a root+dot that can be easily killed. And its DPS isnt all that great either <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A coercer's charm has the potential to be a whole lot more powerful than the illusionists pet, hands down. Even if its just for the DPS.</DIV> <DIV>----------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is very true.  I enjoy Illusionist tho, for the record.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One plus for coercer I wish I had, was the lvl 40 pb aoe cc is something off our main cc timer (mez).  Illusionist mezzes are often redundant since the immunity timers it creates are so long, and the main single/ui comes up fast and lasts long mastered.  Even if fear is buggy or short, I'd prefer it to a 4th mez spell.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[soho]

<DIV>Uh, The Ancient Unbound Abomination is probably the easiest mob in Bonemire... I've been soloing it since 62 and never died to it. Cast root, cast 2nd root, press pet attack while casting debuff, press pet back off =p fancy stuff there~ Hex of Chaos can speed things up. Its AE is melee only, or at least way shorter range than I'm casting on it from.</DIV>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>is it really safe to give out our soloing strats openly on the boards where the devs can see them so they can figure out exactly where to nerf us? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Good point. Question withdrawn.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Ah [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] similar to Lord Septimus - problem here - AE melee have HUGE range. Yes I can kinda root-rot thing but not practicaly due to long time of fight. Yes I do turn off protect me and protect self on pet - still havent found a way to fight with script that force casting mobs go into melee range after landing first attack</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>this thread should be stickied. lots of ppl come and ask which enchanter they wanna pick, this thread seems like the more informative coercer vs illu one ive seen yet.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Oki I got Tyrant and Abomination done solo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> now question how the hell I could deal with casters lol - I have few ideas it might requie very vigorous casting and a lot running but probably can be done on open areas </DIV>

[x82nd77]

<DIV>Between the Illusionist body double and the Coercer's Charm...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which is more powerful on average with say the Adept III version of these spells?</DIV> <DIV>Are good charmable pets hard to find (for soloing) ?</DIV> <DIV>Are any named charmable?</DIV> <DIV>Finally.. If I charm lets say a Skeli mage what is the more powerful version of charm doing for me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am just coming back to EQ after a few months gone and want a reliable soloer due to time constraints. After searching though all the class forums it seems Coercer is reliable if only slow at it (which is fine). </DIV> <DIV>Figure if this is going to be a all questioned answered thread for the Coercer I had to ask.</DIV><p>Message Edited by psheets on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:03 AM</span>

[Olondy]

<div></div>Charm is odd in that master 1 has 2.5x the dps of adept 3.  For adept3 I would take the illusionist double every time.  But granting that you will eventually find a m1 charm, do you want occasionally awesome pets or constant mediocre pets? Do you like charming all sorts of different creatures to see how they perform? Do you not mind charm muffing things up at times. ie accidental death unleashes your deadly former pet on group, stuck in combat, cant go afk,  etc.  There are alot of good pets around most regular grouping areas..epic zones tend to be sparse.  If pvp server you will often be fighting in lower level zones which means poor pets. Charm is great solo because you dictate everything, so you can go places with great pets. In groups you may or may not go somewhere with a great pet. Some players love the added variety, damage, and buffs pets bring. Others, lets call them "certainty lovers" will be paranoid and irritated the whole time you have a pet, even if you keep it under impeccable control. They want x amount of loot in x amount of time, and don't want the new variables and challenges that charming brings.  If you regularly group with a "certainty lover", I would go illusionist. On rare occasion you can find a charmable named, but they are not meant to be. Gets fixed eventually. Well, with ad3 charm a glyphskull skeleton in SS throws a nuke for about 900. Master1 charm that same nuke does 2,400. Boobles Bubblestump Gnomish Coercer of Gnomes Angst Awakening Darathar <div></div><p>Message Edited by Olondyre on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 AM</span>