Post LU 19 Coercer Charm Guide **UPDATED** [Archive]

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Aoi

02-21-2006, 09:37 PM

I've seen a lot of posts lately where players are confused on how to best use charm, or young coercers just want to give up because they frustrated and not familiar with coercer charm tactics. So I am going to give a Charming Guide a shot here. __________________________________________________ EDIT: Updated November, 2006. Added sections on Pet Abilities, Group/Raid Tactics, LU24 Changes, and Charm/Pet Anomalies, and updated other sections where needed. Keep in mind, I am trying to convey concepts here, so many of the tactics will work regardless of tier (though, at lower levels, not all spell lines may be available). Charming Rules 1) Charm is not fixed duration and has a chance to break every 30 secs to a minute or so (can anyone verify the exact time interval breaks can happen?). It will "insta" break from time to time as well. 2) Anyone in the group giving Mental Resist buffs or casting Group Cure Arcane will cause charm to break more often (this *no longer* includes the coercer power/mental group buff, but does still seem to be the case for other classes’ group mental buffs). 3) It's not really worth charming anything above ^^ as they get scaled down to no-arrow when you charm, unless there is just nothing else to charm and you have a good healer in your group. This really only affects their hit points and mitigation, as their casting ability is affected by the level of your charm (App/Adept/Master Level, not Coercer's Level). UPDATE: With the exception of ^^^'s that can one shot a caster (i.e. ~ishi Praetors in Nizara), it is not as much of a risk to charm triple ups now that the mob meses itself for 3 seconds after charm breaks. I have found there isn't a discernable difference in charming a ^ even con caster and a v blue con caster. In PoF, it is not unusual to see a charmed Kromtorr Magi nuke in excess of 3k (Dark Distortion). Similarly, when soloing near the back door in SilentCity, I have screenshots of a down arrow level 55 Augur casting Ice Comet for 3700 dmg (post LU 19). Understand this however, your pet, regardless of level or arrows, is a glass cannon. Update: Some pets, usually nameds, have TONS of HPs, so this may not always apply (Scrollbearer in BS, Gylton in SoS, etc.). 4) Mentioned above, but deserves a line of it's own: MASTER CHARM IS REQUIRED to get the full potential of your pet. Before I got master, charming casters with Adept3 charm would barely net nukes of 1k. It's huge and worth about as much plat as you can afford. Additionally, if you can't find the master for your level, get the previous master. It won't last as long and possibly break more often, but I hear the spell quality is the same as long as its master. 5) You cannot charm one mob of a multi-mob encounter and sprint. The encounter will break as will your charm spell. Best to AE mes, charm, AE mes again and get to work. 6) Many encounters are now marked as uncharmable, especially where ring events are concerned. I usually forgo charming on ring events as a rule, but feel free to experiment. Just don't come crying to the boards if the event gets bugged and doesn't drop any loot <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 7) If you intend to charm while raiding, make sure you have a UI that allows you to see the difference between a true epic and a heroic tagged as epic (in many raid zones, these mobs will be mixed and matched in the same encounter; you want to be looking at the targeting border). Also, some heroics tagged as epic are immune to stun/mes, so be warned that you will not always get 3 secs of mes when charm breaks. Pet Abilities I am adding a new section here to talk more about different pets I have seen in T7 and what that can do for you and your group. I would add more content for the lower level folks, but I really just don’t know much about charming below T6. Maybe someone could write a few paragraphs on lower level charming and post it, and I'll add it to this guide? In addition to the great dmg output from mobs charmed with master Dominate in T6, many T7 mobs seems to have abilities I had not seen before the KoS patch: -Dirge mobs can be identified by the little purple mandolin icon they are buffed with. When charmed, the group will get the buff, which is a + to AGI, Parry, DPS, and a dmg proc. Usually, they put out pretty good dmg as well. I've only seen these in Nizara in T7, but I have seen them in lower zones from time to time as well (I think they started appearing after the patch that went back and updated some of the lower zones, Nek, CL, TS, etc.). Also, the dirge mobs in Nizara are close to the perfect pet IMHO. They do amazing DPS with the flame claw attack, buff the group, and taunt. -Now that mobs have the ability to taunt, it's nice to have a pet that does it as well. With the exception of mobs that flame claw in Nizara (which is a taunt AND huge dmg attack), I can't really say exactly which mobs have taunt. What I can say is if you keep the mob you are fighting targeted while your charmed pet is hitting it, and the mob all of a sudden loses your tank as the implied target for a few secs, you have a mob that taunts. This is a great ability because when the mob is taunted, it is unable to retarget *anything* for a fixed duration (basically a mini stun). Anyone who has been taunted in PvP knows how much this can affect the outcome of a fight. -Brigand mobs, when charmed, will apply Dispatch from time to time. If you don't know what this ability is, go look it up...its huge. -SK mobs have pretty good dmg output and usually life tap. Like dirge mobs, SKs will always have a buff up to identify them (so will guardians, coercers, and zerks for that matter) Tactics As always, tactics depend on the encounter you are about to tackle. With about 20 spells and countless pets available to us in a given situation, there’s a near infinite number of ways to take an encounter. Meaning, learn what your spells do to the various mob types and develop your own tactics that fit the situation. What I list here is really just for educational purposes, and for those who don't realize the power of our charm spell. If you think my tactics work, use 'em...I do all the time. If they don't fit your play style or you think they suck, come up with something better and post it! I am going to give two tactics I use, one for solo mobs in PoF and one for groups of heroic giants in PoF. FYI, I am a 59 Coercer with master Dominate and Master2 mes. All of my stuns are master as well, fyi. [I'll add some tips for grouping with folks while charming little later] Both of these tactics are with a Kromtorr Magi charmed, which is a warlock NPC. My tactics center around letting the pet do all the DPS while I mitigate dmg with stuns, silence, and mes. As I mentioned, our pets do not tank well at all (with the exception of certain named pets, noted above), Before we begin, a trick that EVERYONE needs to know about. Target a mob, send pet in, then IMMEDIATELY hit back off. Most of the time, the pet will have started casting a spell, and will finish it before backing off. By using root, you can affectively have your pet nuke from range by repeatedly hitting attack/back off in quick succession. Keep in mind, NPCs have spell refresh timers too, so they won't always have a spell up to cast. Just give the pet a sec or two for the cooldowns and try again. EDIT: I intentionally left out pet buffing, since it really depends on the mobs you are fighting and the mob you have charmed. In T7, I really haven’t bothered with buffing my charmed pet much as it really seems negligible UPDATE: I think these tactics are still applicable given the changes to many of our spells. I am going to leave them as is, with some minor changes to spell functionality, and will add raid charming tactics if I have time. Solo Mob -Lead with Root -Ravaged Psyche -Pet attack -Intense Focus (8 sec) stun as pet finishes casting its first spell -Mindbend -Magus or stun as necessary, usually solo mob is almost dead by now. Obviously there are 100 different ways to do this. This way never lets my pet go below 80% while he burns the mob down, and I of course don't get hit. My rule is, don't nuke if you don't have to. Use stuns to keep pet safe while he burns everything down. Soloing a Heroic Group MAKE SURE PET IS SET TO NOT PROTECT YOU OR ITSELF!! -Lead with AE Mes -If any resist, single target mes those, or run if they all do -If group has a ^^, single target mes him and save for last. -Pick one, non-caster preferably, Stroke him from max range, then root him as he runs towards you (just in case pet AEs) -Re-mes others if necessary -For the one you pulled out, assuming he is no arrow or ^, repeat solo tactic above -Once he's dead, re-mes others where necessary, then Stroke the next one -If next one is a caster, you need to pull him with Silence instead of Stroke -He will close the gap, root him away from others, repeat solo tactic using Confoundment and PW as well to keep him from casting -For last ^^, re-mes, stack everything you have on him that won't break mes (Ravaged Psyche, Magus, Spell Whip, Mindbend, Tyrannical Mind), then send pet in and unload on him. I have found I can do the giant groups in PoF with little risk with the above strategy, and its pretty fun too. Group/Raid Charming As above, MAKE SURE PET IS SET TO NOT PROTECT YOU OR ITSELF!! Also, try to be aware ahead of time which mobs are charmable for a given raid zone or instance and let your raid know you are charming (<<MOB Charmed>> macro is your friend). Having to drops conc buffs to get off a quick charm mid-fight is a pain. Raid charming differs in that you really aren't trying to solo-kill anything. The goal is twofold: 1) A charmed raid pet will usually add significant DPS to the fight; 2) Charm is a form of offensive crowd control, especially where encounters are immune to mes. -Inform raid prior to any given pull that you will be charming -Unless specifically asked to pull with charm, wait for MT to pull and get a couple taunts off before you start casting -Try NOT to target the same mob the tank is going to kill first; make sure your target is not a true epic. -Depending on how much time you have (and possibly how much dmg the tank is taking), debuff resists, then charm -Always, Always, Always cast illusion on your pet, so it is easier for your raid to see which mob is charmed -When attacking, I always keep a window open where I can see the dmg my pet is doing. This is important because it is VERY possible your pet will take agro, which could be very bad if the mob has a frontal cone AE that could kill the raid. If the pet is doing really sick dmg, I try to back him off occasionally during longer fights to prevent agro. -Try not to keep one pet too long, or you risk it poofing and respawning its encounter. -Last, but definitely not least, don’t be a jerk about using charm in a group/raid situation. Many folks know very little about the mechanics of charm, so use good judgment. If, for example, your charm keeps breaking, and it is not mission critical to the raid, just stop charming. Also, don’t be shy about telling your group what pets can do, and don't get disappointed if they don’t always let you charm. We bring so much to a raid that charm is seen as fluff to some. What I'm hoping is that people will develop their own strategies by seeing what works for me. There's always room for improvement, and of course you will have to temper your tactics based on the quality of your spells. UPDATE: Additionally, with some or our new abilities (ranged ae stun, ae daze), we now have a few more options. For example, stacking stifle and daze on a mob is basically just as good as a 6-8 sec stun. Not sure how useful this will be for lower level coercers, but I think its still sound in concept. Understand, when I was a level 40 coercer, charm was fixed duration at less than 1 minute Post LU19 Considerations Since LU 19, mob's AI and spells/abilities they are allowed to cast has changed significantly. Lets take a mob as an example, Sandscrawler Mender in PoF (Goblin Shaman). Before the patch, with Adept3 Dominate, every one I charmed did basically the exact same thing: Led with a disease/poison DoT then followed up with Smite (with some variation based on what spell is refreshed and available for the mob to cast at a given time). The DoT would generally do about 200-300 a tick, and the Smite would be about 600-800 dmg. The mob would also either Ward or do one of 2 heals on himself (big heal and little heal). Now post LU19, same mob (and any NPC caster post LU18 for that matter) is a crapshoot. First one you charm may lead with a DoT or may cast one of several nukes, all from the sub-class level. What's important to understand is a given NPC will ALWAYS cast the same small subset of spells. If you get a Shaman that always leads with a disease DoT and then a poison DoT, he will always do that if those spells are up. If they are not up, he may have a backup spell that he will cast like once every few fights, but then its back to one of those 2 DoTs and melee. Since I have a lot of experience with them, lets take another example, Kromtorr Magi (Warlock Giant) in PoF. Every time I charm one of these ^'s, it's different. You can get one that leads with Negative Absolution (AE) then follows with Suffocating Breath (single target DoT), who might throw out the occasional Nethero dumbfire pet. Or, you could get one that leads with a Netehro, then does Dark Distortion (single nuke), with the occasional Corrosive Strike (also single nuke). My point with all of this is pets now seem to spawn with a "profile", or, a set number of spells and a greater chance to cast certain spells on the list (usually 4-6 spells). This does not change when you re-charm the same mob. If you want a pet with a different profile, you have to charm a new one of the same type. I don't want to take full credit for discovering this, as I read it initially on these boards, but I have done a ton of follow up research to verify. Post LU24 "Chanter Patch" Changes I'm going to start with just copying some of the LU24 Patch notes here for reference: - Coercer: Mind Bend: Restored stun duration to 4 seconds. Casting time reduced to 1.5 seconds. Reuse time increased to 30 seconds. - Coercer: Terrible Awe and Illusionist: Phantasmal Splendor: * Resistibility increased * Casting time increased to 2s * Reuse timer increased to 15s. * Removed number of targets restriction for PvE. * Removes target from area effects. * Mesmerize effect can now affect Epic targets. * Reduced amount of hate caused by Mesmerize. - Coercer: Stupefy: Functions as a medium- long duration target area effect Stun. Resistibility increased. Casting time set to 1.5s. Reuse time is 45s. Stun effect can now affect Epic targets. - Coercer: Psychic Wail: Increased reuse to 45s. Stun effect can now affect Epic targets. Reduced duration to 5s. - Coercer: Channel: No longer distributes power from dead players in the group. Damage reduced. - Coercer: Ego Shock: Changed Root into target encounter Daze without a break chance. Reuse timer changed to 45s. Damage reduced. Daze effect will affect Epic targets. Casting Time is 2s. - Coercer: Amnesia: Stun effect can now affect Epic targets. - Coercer: Slumber: Mesmerize effect can now affect Epic targets. - Coercer: Silence: Stifle effect can now affect Epic targets. - Coercer: Medusa Gaze: Stun effect can now affect Epic targets. - Coercer: Gloom: Lowered reuse time to 6 seconds. When spell expires, target receives additional damage if they have over 50% of their maximum power remaining. - Coercer: Smirking Demeanor: Targets single ally and no longer has concentration cost. - Coercer: Cerebral Shock: Damage increased. - Coercer: Empathic Link: Also reduces hate gain if placed on non-fighter. No longer toggles, and now costs 1 concentration per ally. The big change here of course is our ability to now CC epics, with reduced effectiveness. Really, the only thing that affects charming is the changes to our CC spells in relation to durations and refresh timers. It is now not quite as easy to keep a mob stun-locked until your pet beats it to death, but definitely not hard. You likely will just need to use root and throw out a little more dmg than before to make up for the loss of stuns duration. Also, since KoS, we now have AAs to consider. I honestly can't really think of any AA's we have that would have a significant impact on charming, with the possible exception of the AGI line for casting speed. Daydream is nice for AE Mes pulling rooms with multiple encounters (which I think is in the WIS AA Line). The AA charm supposedly really sucks, and in my opinion is not worth the 8 points given the short duration. Charm/Pet Anomalies This section is to list out some bugs/weird occurrences with charm. -From time to time, a mob I have charmed will just poof or vanish (though I don't think I have ever seen it happen mid-fight, its always while I am not engaged in combat). This isn't really a big deal EXCEPT for the fact that if you charmed a mob from a previously cleared encounter, when the mob poofs, the ENTIRE ENCOUNTER WILL RESPAWN in its default location. This can be a real pain in zones that are not supposed to re-pop, especially when trying to run back down after a wipe (happens to me in Nizara a allot). Because of this, it is not a bad idea to release and kill your charmed pet from time to time, and just get a new one as you clear further down in the zone. -Charmed pet will sometimes lock your group in combat. If killing the next encounter does not clear it, release and re-charm. If all else fails, just kill it and get a new pet. -Stairs are buggy, which I think anyone who has played a pet class knows by now. Try getting on the same stair/step as the mob if you get the cannot attack message. As before, I'll try to come back and edit this later, as I usually need a few days to read over to see what I forgot to mention. Comments/critiques appreciated. Also, please let me know if I got something blatantly wrong and I'll fix it. Cyene Najena Symphony of the NightMessage Edited by Aoine on 11-02-2006 02:10 PM

Mandelbro

02-21-2006, 10:09 PM

Thanks for taking the time to do this. Great guide for people getting into charm. Someone please sticky this.Two points that I would make:<ol><li>If I plan to keep my pet around for a while, and I'm going to be grinding xp for some time, I want minimal downtime. I would choose ^, ^^, or ^^^ mobs for this because everything is nerfed on them but their power pool. They will never go low on power, but I've noticed that no arrow or down arrow pets will often be low on power and useless. This is purely a personal preference, but something that newbie charmers should be aware of. There is a slight benefit to charming heroics, at a slight risk increase.</li><li>I think it's good that you suggest some tactics and that you encourage people to try their own. I suggest putting a little more emphasis on encouraging people to try their own thing.</li></ol>Thanks again for the great guide. I'd like to hear someone's opinion on this who is new to the class, or is low level and just getting into charming. It's hard to judge an introductory guide from a high level view.<div></div>

Aoi

02-21-2006, 10:19 PM

<div></div>"I'd like to hear someone's opinion on this who is new to the class, or is low level and just getting into charming. It's hard to judge an introductory guide from a high level view."I agree 100%.I played my Coercer to 48 from release, then left the game a bit frustrated and just game back couple months ago.Thus, there is about a 6 month gap in my knowledge of the progress this class has made.I will say, things look more promising now than they ever have before, and that's coming from what is arguably still one of the classes needing the most attention. I do enjoy the challenge. We are just effective enough to make the knowledge/skill of the player behind the keyboard more of a factor than so many other "button masher" classes.Thanks for the compliments, too! I'm going to give it a day or two then come back and make some edits, after letting it absorb a bit.Cyene<div></div>Message Edited by Aoine on 02-21-200609:20 AM

Olondy

02-21-2006, 10:52 PM

Outstanding guide.I played the game a bit at release but lost interest, and am returning now for PVP server and coercer looks a fun and intricate class. I figured out many things by practising a Coercer to 15, but some things like attack/back off move to keep the pet at range are very clever. I will be duoing with a defiler however, so the pet will be healed/warded, which probably will lead to some rather different tactics, but a great guide nonetheless.Thanks<div></div>

arabprin

02-22-2006, 05:51 PM

<div></div><div></div>This is a great guide, thanks for taking the time to post it Cyene. Now I would like to add a little strategy I use when soloing with a charmed pet. A little about myself first. I've been a 60 coercer for a few months now and a lot of my solo and group methods I discovered on my own before I thought about coming to this site for a reference. My major spells are at master level (stuns, stifles, mez, reactives & ravaged psyche) except for a few at adept 3. I use a master beguile as well. I'm going to use the example of a Sandscrawler Mender or Magus in Sinking Sands since I'm charming these all the time to do my lvl 55 writs. Anyone who's done the writs involving these mobs knows one of the most dangerous parts are the raptors that roam near by. Quick little heroic ^^^ buggers that hit fast and hard. They can usually drop me in 2-4 hits and sometimes run up from out of nowhere when you're engaged. I usually like to clear them out before I begin the killing spree for writs. I also use this tactic whenever I need to kill any other heroic or named, it works best with a pet that can heal itself. Here we go:-Buff pet with DPS-Lead with Mez-Hex doll (if you have one, you should) & Ravaged Psyche-Mindbend (if you want), Destructive Mind, Magus, Spell Whip-Pet attack while casting rootYou're pet will most likely start off with either a big DoT or DD spell and proceed to attack the mob. Mindbend gives you a nice buffer between hits to see how your pet and root are doing. A mob usually does some kind of special attack on it's 3rd hit which is why I cast Destructive Mind and Spell Whip. Magus & Mindbend (and usually root) would have been used up by than so you have 2 options. Re-apply them or Intense Focus and let your pet finish the job. This whole time you're pet would be casting and healing itself if it gets low. If your pet is about to die just call it back and let it heal a bit. Since the mob is rooted you can use the method mentioned above where you send your pet in than immediately back off. This will usually force your pet to cast its wards and heals if it's low. Rinse and repeat as needed. I like having the debuffs and reactives on the mob before I start the fight to help my pet take the target down quicker. As long as I keep my eye on the maintained bar for root I have no worries about getting any agro. Been using this method on heroics since my mid to late 40s and have had huge success with it. Hope it helps and good luck. <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=207044109">Mazakala</a> - 60 Coercer<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=795109">Death Before Dishonor</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/server.vm?serverId=109">Lucan DLere</a>Message Edited by arabprince on 02-22-200607:54 AM

Raidi Sovin'faile

02-22-2006, 07:17 PM

<div></div>Very good guide! Maybe it'll open the eyes of a few folks that can't figure out charm.My tactics are mostly the same, although I tend to let my pet melee more. With the latest update, critical hits are pretty nifty... I've seen my goblin shamaner crit for 900+ damage melee.My tactics for those pesky ^^^ heroics:1. Mez2. Stack on every single debuff that won't break mez3. Start casting a stun, and at the same time send in pet4. Chain stuns as long as possible5. Once stuns are down, mez (or if mob is dotted by pet, root + stifle), and back off pet.6. Once stuns are coming back up, repeat process from stage 37. Recast debuffs as needed.It helps if your pet can heal himself in those tight moments when they get swatted, but not necessary. If they can get hit a few times then you can proc a reactive or two between chain stuns.It helps greatly if your pet doesn't dot the mob, since you will rely on mez or root not breaking between chain stuns, too.Obligatory "This doesn't make us Uber" Disclaimer: This can take a little while, is dependant on a breakable pet, and has some pretty big risk involved (especially when using or taking on yellow cons). You pretty much have to know your skills in and out, so that you can make split decisions on what skill is needed (know which spells cast faster, better chance of landing or holding, etc). At least adept 3 in key subjugation skills are nearly required too. As for charming while grouping, here's the tactics I have.Stationary/Instanced situations:If the group is pulling to a spot for grinding, or if you are in an instance with limited mobs, it's good to hunt for the "perfect pet". Since you are in a group, it's best to get a Mage based one. Warlocks are obviously wonderful here, but I've had fun with everything, right down to a summoner pet (which is kind of weird.. wish I could charm a coercer that would in turn charm.. get a cascade going!).Dungeon Crawl situations:If you are going to be constantly moving deeper into a dungeon, and thus finding more and more powerful creatures, you might as well pick up as good a pet you can find on the way, and then break charm and kill off the pet once you get to a new area with better NPCs for charming. Basically, don't slow down the movement and just go with the flow.You have to be quick and decisive in choosing pets, and it helps GREATLY if your MT is paying attention to the creatures hitting him to let you know what they are. It also helps a lot if you know a great deal about other classes. For example, my brother was MTing once, and piped up with "This bat just hit me with Eye Gouge, might be a good pet!".. Eye Gouge is Bruiser, which actually make halfway decent pets if you can't find a caster or priest. Best of the tank ones anyways, and about equal with scouts.I just keep my eyes open and choose pets in this order: Casters (best DPS), Priests (they now debuff and dot, and can even surprise nuke too), Scouts (CAs + poison do decent melee damage), Bruiser or Zerker, Shadowknight (not sure if they can HT), other tanks.Some really nice pets I've run into (other than pure nuking)...- Bard pets will provide a group buff with miscellaneous bard buffs (+stats, +dps/haste, +skills). Pretty cool pet to get! I haven't had much experience, I'll need to check if they debuff a lot too...- Defilers (i think) have a wicked debuff that can help a LOT... it's a debuff placed on the enemy, that when they attack, procs a ward onto whoever they attack. It's the only way I've seen a priest pet use any kind of "heal" on me or the group... but it can be very effective! Other priests may have a similar debuff (proc a reactive heal/regen when someone hits it, etc), but I haven't experimented with priest NPCs enough to find out.This means any priest NPC, depending on their spell loadout, could potentially increase the DEFENSE of the group, not just the damage. Talk about versatility!Controlling your pet in a group:Since it's harder to control your pet along with keeping everyone full of power and cc'ing and/or laying down the debuffs and reactives.. it's good to toss your pet on a mob that's not being attacked if you are fighting groups. Sort of fire and forget. Think of it in the same manner as those classes that have long casting times for their encounter nukes (warlocks), you don't want the DPS from your pet lost because the target keeps dying before he does anything.Keep on top of when things die, since your pet won't automatically swtich targets (nothing should be hitting you or it). You'll need to direct your pet from mob to mob. Not too tough, it can be done while casting other things... just have to keep it in mind.It's your pet, it's your responsibility! If it breaks, no one else should know before you... and you should be on top of it.It's entirely possible the broken pet might not go immediately for you, he may get hit by something after he breaks. I personally keep an eye out for the pet window, rather than the buff... it's bigger, and disappears as soon as charm breaks too.Also, I tend to lead a recharm with a stun instead of mez, since it's possible he could have been hit with a dot. Stuns leave no room for error for the duration, and recharming is only 6 seconds. Also, stuns wear off much faster than mez, so your pet will automatically become ready for fighting.. you won't have to fumble around the maintained window trying to drop mez for your newly charmed pet to attack.Of course.. this is the ideal. I've had fights where I've needed to use group mez on my pet to recharm... nothing else was up! That's about all I can think of about my tactics... not sure if I'm forgetting anything. I'm sure some experts here will pipe in if I missed anything crucial.

not_hothead

02-22-2006, 10:50 PM

Thanks guys!I didn't realize my mind buff was making my pet break more offten (DUH) I also didn't realize that heroic pets had higher power pools (although I charm heroics if I can just to be on the safe side)The attack/backoff tactic is wonderful - what a great idea! I've been doing the stun/root/DoT/egostrike-til-root-comes-back cycle for a while now but I never thought about how to keep pet at range when I pick up a casting pet (which I might start doing more often now)I do wonder about something though: does charm reduce the health/power pool while it's working? Several times I've noticed that when charm breaks my (former) pet's health jumps up by anywhere between 5-20%Great idea about charming a defiler too... gotta love inadvertant heals!thanks again<div></div>

not_hothead

02-22-2006, 10:53 PM

thank you SO much for the tip of recharming with a stun instead of mez! I'm amazed I hadn't thought of that before... great way to keep in the fight plus having mez resisted messes up the healer since suddenly YOU need healing in additon to the people fighting the mob you started with.<div></div>

Aoi

02-22-2006, 11:07 PM

<div>Awesome responses guys, thanks a lot. This thread is turning into what I had hoped, a nice place to share both strategies and some of the intracacies fo our class.</div><div> </div><div>Mazakala-</div><div> </div><div>That's the exact reason I use Mindbend as well, its an awesome debuff for mitigating dmg. </div><div> </div><div>I had not thought about attack/backoff with a healer pet! That was always one of the things that annoyed me about them is they would not heal themselves out of combat...nice!</div><div> </div><div>Raidi-</div><div> </div><div>Very good stuff, especially the group considerations. I agree the key to charming in a group is to extoll the values of the diff pets and not be a burden. Usually that first 3k nuke is enough to keep them interested, or the novelty of a "pet with a pet" when they cast a dumbfire.</div><div> </div><div>Another trick that groups love is to Illusion Ratonga your pet so it does not get in the way and is easier to target. This is especially important in cramped dungeons and when charming big things like giants.</div><div> </div><div>Also, I've seen the reactive ward before, but never bard song, very cool. I have actually seen necro and conjuror mobs with pets, but have not yet had a chance to charm any. Pet with a pet, and possibly more dumbfire, how cool.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Quick side note, did one of the new instances in the expansion last night, forget the name (the one with the nest at the end). The 2nd to last boss was a level 66 ^^^ with 3 ^^ 65 adds. I was able to ae mes, charm one of the adds (I am 60 now btw yay!), and sic it on the main guy for dps. Well, our tank went down about halfway through fight, pet took agro, and healers decided to try to keep him up. Long story short, it worked...and kinda well actually. We surmised since it was a 65 tanking a 66 instead of a 60 tanking a 66, the pet just had better mitigation. </div><div> </div><div>Ironically, after we kill main guy, he dropped a chest while I still had the add charmed. Meaning of course, they weren't linked. Ooops.</div><div> </div><div>Cyene</div>

Aranieq

02-22-2006, 11:25 PM

<div></div>Sticky plz

Tanatus

02-23-2006, 12:54 AM

<div></div>1) Charm is not fixed duration BUT .... a) the better quality of charm the less chance charm will brake before full duration (aka do not expect from Adept 3 last 20 min on even con mob .... its plain silly) b) level is god while quality is king - which mean you can safely control +++ blue con till second comming while - - - high yellow conned mob will brake charm often2) Metal resistance via group buffs have NO WHAT SO EVER effect on stability of charm (tested on 50 blue conned lvl 59 no arrow up mobs ..) .... class of mob yes it play role - charming warlock or shaman pet easy and safe ... charming bruiser or monk pet well be prepare to rebel often3) What to charm? well generally speaking depend what you want from your pet... Tanking? - well in that case I suggest charm +++ only blue conned FIGHTER mobs.... Use em in conjuction with heavy use of reactives - once you pet down to 5-10% health - release and recharm the higher original con the more HP pet will instantly heal... Alternatively for tanking you might want to use DRUID pets + or ++ type - they posses moderately powerfull offence, high instinct of selfpreservation (aka healing) and have decent HP (not as much as fighters but ....) For row offence you need WARLOCK pet quality? well depend how comfotable you are with pets thats goes once in a while onto rebel - I prefer ++ (+++ nuke to hard then they broke lose like 1.5K easy) while + or no arrow cons - heals to slow upon release-recharm and have smaller power pool compare to ++4) Idealy if have master charm by any cost.... if you cannt get master charm have at least master lvl reactives (easy - take Magus as a M2 and Spell Whip oh well lol rofl this master usually sells in 10-20 copies on every broker for 31gp) If you have master 1 charm you can use ANY pet you want if you have Adept 3 ... I'd say stick with tank-type pets and relay on reactives Tactica) you best prey is HEROIC packs with combination of mobs like + and 3-4 no arrow or ++ and 2-3 + type mob (for example packs of giants in PoF). Pull with AE mez - if any resist - your pet will take care about it easy and fast if no resist - pick the first mob to kill use both reactives and root and sick pet in attack... Refresh AE mez upon needs, kill named mob lastb) you can concetrate on killing +++ type of mobs - generally they not best prey but .... idealy stick with casting mobs - fighter type have way to much HP and your pet will get out of combat barely alive... Anyway pull with ... AE mez, Ravaged Psy till it stick then root, then Mind Bend then Magus then Spell Whip and Destructive Mind and proceed with Psychic Wail to brake mez and sick pet into attack.. Before PW brake use Harrowing Silence - w/o specials +++ pose not much treat to your pet... About halth way trough duration use Confoundment (and let me explain why not focus here - first and foremost open your spell book and examine both of your stuns... done? pay special attention on "chance to resist" .... oki now you got it Master 1 Focus is 16% harder to resist vs. Master 1 Counfoundment 30% harder to resist and I tell you what - counfound never failed me on yellow conned mobs ... focus ... well it take a while to stick.. well toss here deagro factor..) Once first stun is in - and halth way trough - start casting Focus till it stick might take 2-4 attempt... Once focus in - refresh Mind Bend, Magus and Spell Whip ... Now Harrowing Silence again ready to fly - do it. If you have big mana pool - keep Root and Ego Burst on .... just in casec) down arrow packs ... Well here is an easy tactic ... First and foremost get Warlock ... Sick the pet (well it will take for pet 4.0+ to born some kind of AoE)lol during this delay pull pack with Spell Whip following by PW and Demoralizing Gaze. By time you finish casting PW pet should finely get off either AE nuke for 1700-2000 per target or AoE DoT that do around 300-400 per tic AoE also and by time you ready to cast second time Dem Gaze - whole pack should be deadd) no arrow or 1 arrow up singles - well pull with root, use magus/whip then sick pet and procced with Ego Burst

Gorathh

02-23-2006, 01:07 AM

Stickied <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Aranieq

02-23-2006, 02:01 AM

<div></div>Ty Gorath, and especially <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=14033">Aoine</a> for a thread to discuss such a huge topic for us and to steer new coercers to when they come with the inevitable how do I charm questions.

Raidi Sovin'faile

02-23-2006, 11:04 AM

Metal resistance via group buffs have NO WHAT SO EVER effect on stability of charm (tested on 50 blue conned lvl 59 no arrow up mobs ..)It does have an effect, but it's on the smaller scale compared to other factors. Like you said, level is God.Think of it in terms of sliders in chance of breaking. Level is the biggest factor, sliding it up or down even a single notch will cause a drastically noticeable difference. Resistances are a smaller, secondary slider... it will only make a big difference if it's huge, and even then it can only go so far before level makes it pointless.Basically.. if you only tested your charm on blue mobs, then that would be why your mental buff didn't change anything. It wasn't enough at that level to make a difference.I myself am not 60 with my coercer yet, so I'm still constantly charming mobs that are yellow (sometimes orange if I can't find a yellow caster mob). At those con levels, the little nudge from a mental buff can push them into the "consistant resistant" situation.I'm not really disagreeing with your data... I agree, you can keep your group buff up constantly and not have a problem... when charming blue and green mobs. Test this on yellow mobs, it's a different beast. well in that case I suggest charm +++ only blue conned FIGHTER mobs.... Use em in conjuction with heavy use of reactives - once you pet down to 5-10% health - release and recharm the higher original con the more HP pet will instantly healI'm not disputing this.. I'd have to test it since the many patches. But last time I had a pet break charm while low on health, and then I subsequently recharmed him, he went back down to his lowered health again. Yes, he "heals" when you break charm, since he's getting all that lost HP back from when he was brought down to solo mob health... but recharming just brought him back down to 5% health last time I tried.Think of it this way... say a charmed ^^^ loses two thirds of his health. So when he's being damaged as your pet, and getting down to 5%, he's really getting down to around 67-68% of his original health... it's just not showing because it's not available as a pet. When charm breaks, that original health pops back up showing the true value of 66%+.A quick easy test... charm a ^^^ and send him to die against a tough fight. Watch closely at his health when he dies, it'll "heal" just as he's disappearing. The health is technically "there", just not available as a pet. So recharming (at least used to) take it away again.Going to have to try and test this again though. Would be a very nice tactic... if possibly an exploit. Walking on eggshells time.

Tanatus

02-23-2006, 11:48 AM

<div></div>Not an exloit ... it utilization long promissed balance risk vs. reward ... I take higher risk charming +++ and ++ so I should have greater reward for it right? Part of this reward be able "heal" pet on a fly with recharming and second part is granting pet virtually unlimited power pool which is crucial then you using warlock petThe only reason why I did that on blue conned mobs because it was before KOS release and was not possible find enouth even cons of various classes of mob....Btw atm I have owned for a quite long time next 2 pets - a) ravesect spellbinder (have crappy nuke ~2.1K but use it often) b) squalburst drake (have mean 3124 nuke but ... use it rather rare and like melee a lot but do about 280-480 melee damage per hit which I conside ok) - both pets were even conned (lvl 60 and lvl 61 correspodently) I had all the time my + mental resist buff and + mental resist from one of my group mates (I had total around 3K mental) charm was stable

Aoi

02-23-2006, 09:26 PM

I'm going to update this guide next week, so I'll put in a few of the items posted since I originally started the topic. Still debating the Mental resist thing, so I think I'll just put it as an optional rule. While it's not huge, I have noticed more breaks with a Templar in my group as well.Thanks again for the responses, but mostof all I am glad people are getting some use out of this. Like Tanatus has said many times, if you are a SKILLED player and KNOW YOUR CLASS, a Coercer with the right pet charmed is indeed a demigod.I even have my guildies into it now, "Hey Cyene, was that your pet that just did that?!?"....lol.Also, great discussion guys...some information on this thread about Coercers I have never seen before.Cyene<div></div>

Aranieq

02-27-2006, 04:46 AM

<div></div><div>Info from Templar post on their ability to "cure" charm away</div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=22122#M22122">Templars go bad with charm - please advise.</a>Board - <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board?board.id=13">Templar</a></div>

Nuhus

02-27-2006, 05:17 AM

<div>Nice guide! Another thing I'd like to add in here.</div><div> </div><div>If there are mobs in the area that normally fight eachother ie bitterwind explorers vs icewolves in EF, and croc hunters vs crocs in SS, will still tend to keep the hatred for eachother even while charmed.</div><div> </div><div>Basically if I charmed an icewolf and walked by a bitterwind explorer the bitterwind explorer would attack my pet (there are some heroics there) if successful in killing your pet, they will go after you.</div><div> </div><div>It's not a big thing, but it can take you by suprise if you don't know about it! (this applies to more mobs than that, just examples)</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for posting this guide. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Raidi Sovin'faile

02-27-2006, 12:20 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aranieq wrote:<div></div><div>Info from Templar post on their ability to "cure" charm away</div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=22122#M22122">Templars go bad with charm - please advise.</a>Board - <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board?board.id=13">Templar</a></div><hr></blockquote>You know, I think I experienced something along these lines, but not specifically with a Templar.First off, when I'm soloing (and not using my mental buff), I can hold charm the full duration for 90% of the time. When I duo with my wife (playing her warden), I get a few more breaks, but that might be because we are taking on higher level stuff since we have her healing.. however I can still get full duration on most of my charms.Now the other night, I grouped with a Shadowknight, a Swashbuckler, my wife (Warden), and two Conjurors. I was having a hell of a time keeping any pet charmed for more than 10 minutes, and I had a higher ratio of "insta breaks" (where they break after a minute or two).Then later we went to Sinking Sands (after doing Tables), and helped a conjuror finish his CQ2. The other conjuror left, and we felt like taking on Broog, so I got my 61 Inquisitor to pop in for that kill. I grabbed a Goblin Mage for pet and went to town. Problem is, as soon as we started fighting (we had some adds to clear before Broog), I'd lose my pet every couple minutes. Without fail.Pet died during Broog kill, and I grabbed a nearby spider. It would lose charm every minute or so too... I could almost set my watch to the timing of losing charm!Not sure what spells inquisitors get, but I'm almost positive he wasn't using group cure. I didn't think to ask him at the time what he was casting, I just thought it was a bout of bad luck... I'll check later (my wife has an inquisitor too, although not lvl 61). It's just frustrating that our class defining feature can be so easily broken from other classes doing their job. What I'd like to see is for charm to be considered a beneficial spell on the NPC, and therefore NOT considered for curing and breaking. Have them resist based on their base chance to resist prior to recieving group buffs.Obviously it shouldn't work like this on PCs... so that curing a charmed ally is still a viable option. But since NPCs will NEVER, EVER cure your pet, it's just stupid to have it this way.And since we can have seperate rules for spells applying to NPCs vs PCs, I don't think this should really be that hard to implement.

Aranieq

02-27-2006, 05:54 PM

<div></div>Also cure arcane will "cure" your pet through impplied target.. scold your tank for targeting your pet during fight =p

Aranieq

05-02-2006, 09:30 PM

<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=10180&jump=true" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=10180&jump=true</A> coercer pet guide... just extra reading for those who didn't get enough here

anfrey

05-21-2006, 10:05 PM

GREETINGS EVERYONE!!i'm a new coercer. just last night i levelled up to 17. let me begin by saying this thread is a very good read. it answers several questions i had been asking myself. however, it also really confuses me... some of the spells you guys discuss i have not obtained yet, and most of the mobs mentioned i have not seen. i can somewhat follow your strategies and techniques, but was lost roughly half the time i read this thread.just thought i'd give you guys some feedback from a true coercer noob.

Morticai the third

11-02-2006, 08:07 AM

<DIV>well se how long it takes them (the devs) to look at the coercer forums</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sothis is charmeable</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yeah the dragon named in HoF</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this tried and true 11/01/2006</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>try it for yourself</DIV> <DIV>have fun with it</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you can rampage through the entire zone with a freeking huge [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dragon</DIV>

Tanatus

11-02-2006, 09:44 AM

FYI ... Posses have nothing to do with charm....

Morticai the third

11-02-2006, 11:05 AM

if i ment posses i would have said posses im talking full blow drag a dragon around the zone and tell him to kill stuff CHARM we killed the mother of abominations with somthis as my pet

Alaeth

11-02-2006, 01:21 PM

Yes, Sothis is charmable...but why would you bother, other than to pull him away from his adds while soloing? His DPS isn't really all that impressive compared to that of other mobs in the zone, and he doesn't keep his health pool like a few (very few) named do. Given that you have to kill him anyways if you want to go past the barrier, I don't see any reason at all why he would be made uncharmable.

Morticai the third

11-02-2006, 10:06 PM

<DIV>true his dps is small </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but he was soling the abomination mother for a good long time before he died i dont think his hp changed all that much</DIV>

Aoi

11-02-2006, 11:27 PM

The final mob in the nest is charmable too...and the mobs up top at the entrance never stop spawning. XP farming anyone? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Cyene

Aoi

11-03-2006, 01:33 AM

Just updated the Guide, let me know what you guys think, and if I missed anything major. A lot has changed since LU19, so I am sure I forgot something... Cyene

Fasci

05-08-2007, 05:55 PM

Just catching up on an old thread here. It's a great read for a new coercer. Answers lots of my questions! Like Anfrey said (last year, lol!), it would be nice to translate the guide a bit for lower (<30?) coercers. Still, the basics are the same, and I think I'm following it alright. Up until now, (I'm at lvl 26 or so) I've been using mostly tank pets, b/c of the paper quality of casters' skins. But now that I know the Attack/BackOff trick, I'll have to revamp my thinking. Thanks for the tip. Does anyone know a resource for a bestiary that lists mob buffs? The one at ogaming/allakhazam is handy, but doesn't list mob abilities that I see (unless I'm blind--could be!). I like the idea of opening a combat window for pets to gain a better understanding of what's actually going on, and to really learn what's available in a given zone. Thanks again for a great thread! EDIT: Just found the Pet WIKI at <a href="http://www.eq2i.com/articles/Coercer_Pets" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2i.com/articles/Coercer_Pets</a> which helps a lot! Still, would be handy to have a listing with specific abilities, if anyone knows where to find such a thing! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

netglen

11-27-2007, 01:57 PM

<cite>Aranieq wrote:</cite><blockquote> <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=10180&jump=true" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/...10180&jump=true</a> coercer pet guide... just extra reading for those who didn't get enough here</blockquote>Dead URL, please remove or update.

EndlessHurt

12-23-2007, 08:06 AM

anyone know a good place to solo as a 50 Coercer? preferably with casters so i can mezz one and hone my soloing. i dont wanna have to go to EL and do it for no experience.

Oriax

12-23-2007, 04:40 PM

I would go to the Feerrott. That is a good open zone to farm actually. Alot of named mobs that have the chance of dropping masters. Two mobs that I remember using some when I farmed that zone solo was:<li>a tillia sorcerer - Mage </li><li>a tillia charmer - Mage</li>If you take the path that leads towards the Kingdom of Sky portal but hang a left and you'll come out by the small river and the pond off to the left. Those tillia mobs are there.

Trayla

02-11-2008, 04:43 PM

Thanks for the guide! I am a new coercer (lvl 24) and this all made sense to me. It seems to be alot of what I've already been doing. Maybe they've changed things to the point that coercer isn't difficult the way it was once - or so I've heard. I haven't had any problems yet and am having fun. Only problems I've had is going from solo to group. I solo most all of my characters so I'm used to that. I'm not sure what role to play with my coercer when in a group. Should I have a pet, should I not? Would it be better to DPS buff someone or cast a pet etc? I guess this is all circumstantial. At my level people really don't like to *not* AOE so that I can mez - even when in deep fallen gate where it is actually necessary. I imagine that becomes more important later. I can't wait until I get my AOE mez!!!

Trepan

02-11-2008, 06:34 PM

Sorry to break the bad news, but coercers don't get an AoE mez, we get an encounter mez. Very handy, don't get me wrong, but if multiple groups add, it can be hard to keep track of who is in what group. We do get a group stun, a group daze and an AoE Daze (sonic boom line) that can be very effective in shutting down multiple groups long enough to get the majority mezzed, provided your team is on the ball and working through the tank, and the tank sticks to a stingle target and doesn't spaz tab to "Get agro". The group daze and AoE stun have a damage component so keep in mind that unless the tank has already got a few points into their hate list, the mobs may be more than willing to check your liver for spots when they return to their senses.As for pets in group, it can be as difficult to keep the group from tearing down your pet when charm breaks as it is to keep the pet from tearing down the group. For most groups I'd recommend against unless you're really careful to keep your pet targeted so you can stun and recharm immediately.As for what a group expects from you... power, agro transfer, and crowd control/mitigation via stuns. Rougues love your DPS mod, especially those who keep one eye on a parser. Mez? Some groups will continue to complain about you mezzing through the rest of your career. Some groups will kiss your feet for queuing up adds.Its always situation and the only firm answer I can give you is "It depends" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />p