Charm useful? I need your info plz

[Cazrack]

Im currently lvl 12 only, so i have only used the first charm spell. However all the pets you charm seems to become nerfed from what mob it was earlier. For example the damage they do seem to be minimal compared to the damage they can do when they are not charmed. I mean what is the point in having a charmed mob if its not any powerful at all ? and when the charm brakes it aggros on you heavy and suddenly becomes powerful again ! until it gets recharmed again or killed. In Everquest 1 you could get some very nasty charmed pets and buff them to make them even better but when the charm broke it was dangerous as well.  Well in EQ2 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] stupid useless nerfed charmed pet that cant taunt anything and then suddenly back to a killing machine when its breaks. at the moment i see no use with the charmed pets since they dont provide anything special, you should mez the mob instead. The necro pet seems alot better then our charmed pet in every aspect. Charm feels useless and since the downpoints far exceeds the uppoints. Is it the same on the higher lvls ? if so im going to sack this coercer. i really wanted to experience some EQ1 enchanter charming........... What do you guys think ? /Cazrack <div></div>

[PigLick]

If you look around a bit at the multi0ple other threads spread throughout this and other forums, you'll see that basically coercers agree with you, and no it doesn't get any better throughout the levels. Some in fact would say it probably gets worse, since mobs get tougher relative to you the higher you go. I will say though, that the quality level of your charm spell (ie Apprentice I, Adept I, etc) affects how much damage your pet does, so upgrading it if possible will help a bit with that. Many people will probably tell you not to bother because charm is completely worthless and you shouldn't use it anyway. Personally, I don't quite agree with that. It's definitely got some problems and doesn't work as well as it should, but I still use it for soloing all the time. It's not completely horrible for soloing once you get used to it (and have a decent quality spell- mine's Adept I). Not everyone agrees though, so you'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to bother with it or not. PigLick <div></div>

[Cazrack]

Crap when you get this reply "Not everyone agrees though, so you'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to bother with it or not." On a major class defining skill you know it cant be good news............... /Cazrack

[Murdaben]

Charm is hosed.  If you want to play a chanter to higher levels, go be an Illusionist.   They are fairly well balanced, only needing some tweaks - you'll be able to solo, most of your spells will work properly and be vaulable, and you'll be welcome in groups. Coercers are simply broken in many of their major spells, and have a lot fewer group-friendly things they can do.  One thing over-all that got both us and Illusionists: enchanters in general got hosed by the recent stun/stifle nerf. <div></div>

[Jaxidi]

<DIV>In my opinion (that of an Illusionist so forgive me if this sounds [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]), charm should work something like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>You can only charm a mob in a single-mob encounter.</LI> <LI>If you charm an up or down-arrowed mob, the mob acts as though it is an even mob.</LI> <LI>Perhaps the level of the mob you can charm is affected by the quality of your spell upgrade (perhaps adept 1 lets you charm even, adept 3 let's you charm 2 levels higher, etc.)</LI> <LI>When you cast charm, it either sticks or doesn't and it is permanent until the pet dies, you die, you release it, or you zone (or whatever else should be in that list).  Basically, I think it should become a "permanent" pet.</LI> <LI>You cannot charm named mobs and other special quest mobs.</LI> <LI>When you charm a mob, 5 minutes after that mob gets charmed that mob no longer is considered as a PH (i.e. if 10 coercers charm all the same mob and there are only at most 10 of those that spawn, 5 mins later they'll start respawning again).</LI> <LI>After the previously-mentioned 5 minutes, when you release the charmed mob it will just despawn.</LI> <LI>I'm sure I'm missing stuff, please contribute.</LI></UL> <P>If I were a coercer, I would want a charm that worked like the above.  It would eliminate a lot of bugs, a lot of headache, and finally make it useful and fun.</P> <P>Just my $0.02 worth after having the lvl47 charm for a few days (hated it).</P>

[Murdaben]

I'd love to have a charm that worked like that. <i><font color="#ffff00">You can only charm a mob in a single-mob encounter.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font> </i>This might be a problem - especially in places where all there are are grouped mobs.  Maybe "... s<i>ingle mob, or last living mob in a non-epic encounter</i>". <div></div>

[Bloodtoo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jaxidian wrote:<div>In my opinion (that of an Illusionist so forgive me if this sounds [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]), charm should work something like this:</div> <div> </div> <ul> <li>You can only charm a mob in a single-mob encounter.</li> <li>If you charm an up or down-arrowed mob, the mob acts as though it is an even mob.</li> <li>Perhaps the level of the mob you can charm is affected by the quality of your spell upgrade (perhaps adept 1 lets you charm even, adept 3 let's you charm 2 levels higher, etc.)</li> <li>When you cast charm, it either sticks or doesn't and it is permanent until the pet dies, you die, you release it, or you zone (or whatever else should be in that list).  Basically, I think it should become a "permanent" pet.</li> <li>You cannot charm named mobs and other special quest mobs.</li> <li>When you charm a mob, 5 minutes after that mob gets charmed that mob no longer is considered as a PH (i.e. if 10 coercers charm all the same mob and there are only at most 10 of those that spawn, 5 mins later they'll start respawning again).</li> <li>After the previously-mentioned 5 minutes, when you release the charmed mob it will just despawn.</li> <li>I'm sure I'm missing stuff, please contribute.</li></ul> <p>If I were a coercer, I would want a charm that worked like the above.  It would eliminate a lot of bugs, a lot of headache, and finally make it useful and fun.</p> <p>Just my $0.02 worth after having the lvl47 charm for a few days (hated it).</p><hr></blockquote></span>If we got to vote for devs you'd have my vote...well unless your a crappy coder.

[Murdaben]

I dont care if he is a crappy coder - bugs can eventually be fixed, compared to a flawed design that we have now.  An inflexible approach to design?  And the inability to admit he was wrong on early break?  Thats damage no matter how well its coded. <div></div>

[PigLick]

Well, I doubt most of the designers do any coding, they're just designers, which means they come up with the concepts and mechanics then hand them over to the programmers to implement them. PigLick. <div></div>

[Bloodtoo]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>PigLickJF wrote:Well, I doubt most of the designers do any coding, they're just designers, which means they come up with the concepts and mechanics then hand them over to the programmers to implement them. PigLick. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Your right I don't know what I was thinking most of the coding is probably done in India.</span> </span><div></div>

[Belaythien]

<div></div>If you really want to use charm simply for the fun of it you shouldn't get anything above green. Those are fairly reliable (at least at app 4) but they still break before the full duration is over. However it doesn't really matter if a low green mob is hitting you. The downside is that they hardly hit your enemy and their damage is a joke. Also don't take mobs with more than one up ^ as they will be really nasty once they break free in a fight. The best mobs are those with no or only one arrow up as you won't suffer the disadvantage of down arrows or the fact that a mean ^^^ may turn on you in a fight.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can see that using a charmed pet is much work (keeping it under control and finding a good new one when it dies) and little gain. It's fun if you are bored to use the same root, dot, dot, HO, nuke, nuke chain again and again but having no pet is still better than having one in terms of safety, speed and complexity of fights. Groups are totally different ... the 3 concentration points are definately wasted on a pet. You can generate more damage by buffing scouts and tanks with the dps buff. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Belaythien on <span class=date_text>10-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Jaxidi]

<DIV>I'm a good coder.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cazrack wrote:<BR>Im currently lvl 12 only, so i have only used the first charm spell.<BR>However all the pets you charm seems to become nerfed from what mob it was earlier.<BR>For example the damage they do seem to be minimal compared to the damage they can do when they are not charmed.<BR><BR>I mean what is the point in having a charmed mob if its not any powerful at all ? and when the charm brakes it aggros on you heavy and suddenly becomes powerful again ! until it gets recharmed again or killed. In Everquest 1 you could get some very nasty charmed pets and buff them to make them even better but when the charm broke it was dangerous as well.  Well in EQ2 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] stupid useless nerfed charmed pet that cant taunt anything and then suddenly back to a killing machine when its breaks.<BR><BR>at the moment i see no use with the charmed pets since they dont provide anything special, you should mez the mob instead.<BR>The necro pet seems alot better then our charmed pet in every aspect. Charm feels useless and since the downpoints far exceeds the uppoints.<BR><BR>Is it the same on the higher lvls ? if so im going to sack this coercer. i really wanted to experience some EQ1 enchanter charming...........<BR><BR>What do you guys think ?<BR><BR>/Cazrack<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The power of your pet depends on the quality of the spell. My dominate is at Master I. When I charm a Lesser Mummy in Sinking Sands and sic it on another Lesser Mummy, it shreds the mob without any help from me. Mobs are balanced roughly at App3. If your charm is worse than App3 or 4, the mob will be weaker. If your charm is better, Adept or Master, the mob gets stronger.</P> <P>Up arrow mobs get downgraded when charmed. Down arrow mobs get upgraded. Charm down arrow mobs.</P> <P>The big problem with charm is the duration. With my Master I spell charming only blue and green mobs, my average duration is about 60 seconds. The 12 minute duration of the spell is a joke. Green mobs are better than blue, they're just impossible to find in some zones. I will sometimes charm white or yellow mobs, but I assume the charm won't outlast the resistance debuff. That means they are for the current encounter only (i.e. AE mez encounter, charm one mob, proceed with encounter, kill pet).</P> <P>My general rules for using charm as it exists:</P> <P>1. Upgrade the spell</P> <P>2. Charm down arrow mobs</P> <P>3. Charm green mobs</P> <P>4. Be prepared for a break at any time</P> <P>5. If the charm breaks when you get an add, run. <BR></P>

[PigLick]

<span><blockquote><hr>Chogra wrote: <p>Up arrow mobs get downgraded when charmed. Down arrow mobs get upgraded. Charm down arrow mobs.</p><hr></blockquote>Actually according to what we've been told, this isn't true. Up arrows get downgraded, but down arrows don't get upgraded. Of course, considering that your charm is likely to break soon after it's cast so it's unlikely for your pet to get killied in combat before it breaks anyway, I'd still agree with your suggestion to charm down arrows, because at least then when it breaks you have a weaker mob to deal with. If charm was more reliable though, and you wanted to actually keep your pet around for a little longer, the less down arrows the better (though up arrows would still not be good). I never expect to keep my pet around for more than one, maybe two encounters. It's basically just a two-way dot for me. Charm one mob, sic it against another and help it kill that mob. In the process, it of course takes some damage, and does some as well. Then break charm (if it hasn't already broken) and finish it off. (same principle for grouiped encounters, but I keep the pet until everyone else in the encoutner is dead, then break and kill). PigLick</span><div></div>

[Signal9]

<DIV>Down-arrows will be upgraded only to the extent that they do damage persuant to your charm quality.  If you have app3, there is no upgrade at all.  If you have Master 1 like Chogra, it's quite an upgrade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have adept 1, waiting till I get Dominate before using a rare for Ad3.  Counting on finding or buying the Master is just stupid.  It may happen, but no point holding my breath for it.</DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PigLickJF wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogra wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Up arrow mobs get downgraded when charmed. Down arrow mobs get upgraded. Charm down arrow mobs.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually according to what we've been told, this isn't true. Up arrows get downgraded, but down arrows don't get upgraded.<BR><BR>Of course, considering that your charm is likely to break soon after it's cast so it's unlikely for your pet to get killied in combat before it breaks anyway, I'd still agree with your suggestion to charm down arrows, because at least then when it breaks you have a weaker mob to deal with. If charm was more reliable though, and you wanted to actually keep your pet around for a little longer, the less down arrows the better (though up arrows would still not be good).<BR><BR>I never expect to keep my pet around for more than one, maybe two encounters. It's basically just a two-way dot for me. Charm one mob, sic it against another and help it kill that mob. In the process, it of course takes some damage, and does some as well. Then break charm (if it hasn't already broken) and finish it off. (same principle for grouiped encounters, but I keep the pet until everyone else in the encoutner is dead, then break and kill).<BR><BR>PigLick<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can't find where on the boards we've been told anything. I thought I had read something from a dev, but I just can't find it. I generally agree with what you said in another post -- a down arrow charmed mob will kick the butt of a uncharmed mob of the same type, but it is hard to say whether that is entirely due to the upgraded spell quality or whether there is some arrow removal effect. Either way, I don't think it changes my suggestion to charm down arrow mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, for those considering breaking the bank to buy a Master-level charm (like I did): When LU13 came out I was level 37 (coincidence? I don't think so). I immediately invested in an Adept III beguile. The Master I pets do seem to be a bit stronger (relatively) than when I was using the Adept 3, but I can detect ZERO difference with mobs breaking charm between the Adept 3 and the Master 1. Maybe (hopefully) that will change when they get around to addressing charm.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Chogra on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Bloodtoo]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Chogra wrote:<blockquote><hr>PigLickJF wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Chogra wrote:<p>Up arrow mobs get downgraded when charmed. Down arrow mobs get upgraded. Charm down arrow mobs.</p><hr></blockquote>Actually according to what we've been told, this isn't true. Up arrows get downgraded, but down arrows don't get upgraded.Of course, considering that your charm is likely to break soon after it's cast so it's unlikely for your pet to get killied in combat before it breaks anyway, I'd still agree with your suggestion to charm down arrows, because at least then when it breaks you have a weaker mob to deal with. If charm was more reliable though, and you wanted to actually keep your pet around for a little longer, the less down arrows the better (though up arrows would still not be good).I never expect to keep my pet around for more than one, maybe two encounters. It's basically just a two-way dot for me. Charm one mob, sic it against another and help it kill that mob. In the process, it of course takes some damage, and does some as well. Then break charm (if it hasn't already broken) and finish it off. (same principle for grouiped encounters, but I keep the pet until everyone else in the encoutner is dead, then break and kill).PigLick</span><hr></blockquote><div>I can't find where on the boards we've been told anything. I thought I had read something from a dev, but I just can't find it. I generally agree with what you said in another post -- a down arrow charmed mob will kick the butt of a uncharmed mob of the same type, but it is hard to say whether that is entirely due to the upgraded spell quality or whether there is some arrow removal effect. Either way, I don't think it changes my suggestion to charm down arrow mobs.</div><div> </div><div>BTW, for those considering breaking the bank to buy a Master-level charm (like I did): When LU13 came out I was level 37 (coincidence? I don't think so). I immediately invested in an Adept III beguile. The Master I pets do seem to be a bit stronger (relatively) than when I was using the Adept 3, but I can detect ZERO difference with mobs breaking charm between the Adept 3 and the Master 1. Maybe (hopefully) that will change when they get around to addressing charm.</div><p>Message Edited by Chogra on <span class="date_text">10-14-2005</span><span class="time_text">12:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Is this what you are looking for :</span><p><strong><font color="#ffff00">Charmed Pets</font></strong></p><ul><li><span>Charm spells can be cast on solo and heroic NPCs, but not epic targets.</span></li><li>Maintained spells cast on charmed pets will automatically drop when the charm expires.<span></span></li><li><span>Charm spells can be resisted by enemies in much the same manner as root spells.</span></li><li><span>Charmed pets cast their spells and do damage based on the quality level of the spell used to charm them.</span> For example, an NPC charmed with an Adept I spell will use its abilities at Adept I quality.</li><li><font color="#ff66cc">If you charm an NPC with either no arrows or 1 or more down arrows, it will retain the health and power pools it inherently possesses.</font></li><li>If you charm an NPC with 1, 2, or 3 up arrows, it will have the health and power pools of a standard no-arrow NPC.</li><li>When a charmed pet is released, its health and power pools will return to their non-charmed values, taking into account any damage or healing sustained while charmed.</li><li><span>The chance for charmed pets to break free is based on their resistance values to the type of spell used to charm them.</span></li></ul>Taken from dev info <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=2">Current Overall Changes</a>