Coercers: Ultimate Heroic Solo Class?

[Gilbert]

<DIV>Based on someone's post saying our pets drop chests when killed we won't get the xp but we'll get the loot.  Even if that doesn't happen we're still the ultimate (unless pets gain full health when charm drops.  I haven't tested it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway the point of the thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We charm ^^^ mob, it gets beat down to 1-2% health by whatever mob it's fighting, let's say v mob so we know we won't get killed outright by it.  You break charm, root heroic, mez mob you're fighting, stun and kill heroic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We rock.</DIV>

[Abado]

Did this earlier today, was an encounter of 2 rhinos, both double up arrow yellow con (I'm level 14). <div></div>

[Gilbert]

<BR>Charm is perfectly balanced.  I'll stop arguing about it.  I have the "God" spell I didn't want.

[Dystr]

i pulled this out of the "more coercer charm" thread on the combat changes forum, because i thought it was particularly poignant here: <span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<p>Perhaps you should jsut look at this from a differrent angle.</p> <p>The more I think about it the more I think the Dev are simply giving you more places where you can use your charm rather than affering you an enhancement to it.</p> <p>If you are in RE or SE and NEED a pet, then you can find one.  It might be really dangerous to use it but it is there.   On the other hand, you would be a fool to charm a ^^^ giant in EF to kill icewolves as the risk would be far to great and you get no real benefit.  So you are much better off taking a solo mob or a vvv and taking advantage of the charm without the risk.</p> <p>It isn't really a nerf or a bump...just a way of allowing you to use it in more places.</p> <hr></blockquote>this is EXACTLY the point i was trying to make.  this change went in simply to give us more charmable mobs, no other reason.  the wierd, f@cked up side effect of this is 2 twofold: 1.  we can effectively remove the risk of charm by charming vvv mobs and rendering them far more powerful while charmed - yet avoid the risk of our pet turning on us and killing us because once charm breaks we just have a piddly little vvv mob looking to give us 50 lashes with a wet noodle.  2.  we can effectively allow enemies to kill heroic encounters for us by charming a heroic mob, rendering it FAR less powerful, having it attack a solo conned mob, allowing the solo conned mob to reduce the ^^^'s health to 1-2%, breaking the charm then stunning/rooting/mezzing each mob as as we please, ticking off that final 1-2% on our own and getting credit for the kill.  i will from now on refer to #2 as *<u><b>REVERSE COERCING</b></u>*, i.e. coercing mobs to commit suicide for our benefit (as opposed to coercing mobs to commit homicide for our benefit).  /flex, fear the Reverse Coercer! </span> <div></div>

[Gilbert]

<DIV>I'm sure you've read my comments coming to the same point on the "reverse coercing".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand why they did what they did but it's like waving a carrot in our face.  I know charm will be changed with the next patch because this version is obviously too powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather just make it known now and have us give some decent feedback so it doesn't get nerfed to nothing.</DIV>

[Abado]

<div></div>I played a necro in EQ1 and charmed whenever I could because it was high risk and reward, which made it FUN. I think if we are going to have neutered pets then the fixed duration would be ok so we can and will actually use pets instead of constantly fearing that any second it's going to explode on you and tan your hide (whilst merely giving noogies whilst it's your pet). Or it should keep the chance of breakage it currently has but retain the mob's power, perhaps not all, but most anyway. This is my preference as it is higher risk and reward, and more fun. A way of preventing 'reverse coercing' I think would be to make a mob that was previously charmed only give loot and exp of a no arrow mob until it is full health, then it's loot and exp revert back to whatever it was before you charmed it. This would mean you could still charm a 3 up arrow mob and have it fight down to 1-2% health, but if you broke charm and killed it then, you would only get regular exp and loot. If you let it get back to full health you would get exp and heroic loot, but then of course the thing is full health so you wouldn't be able to take it down yourself. This however could be used to turn down arrow mobs into easy-kill no arrow mob exp and loot, however it isn't as serious as soloing heroics, and it could probably be tweaked. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Abadoth on <span class=date_text>09-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 PM</span>

[Dystr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gilbertus wrote:<div></div> . . . <div>I'd rather just make it known now and have us give some decent feedback so it doesn't get nerfed to nothing.</div><hr></blockquote>/agree theres a couple easy options to fix this. 1.  let ^^^ mobs stay ^^^ mobs while we have them charmed.  the mobs we fight won't be able to kill the ^^^ at the same rate as a no-arrow mob, this will prevent us from being able to force the ^^^ to commit suicide.  (this probably won't happen, but it would be sweet). 2.  do what the above poster suggests - make a ^^^ that has been charmed only ever give out single target XP and loot.  this is a bad idea imo, because it downplays the skill it would take to successfully reverse coerce.  when charm breaks, these mobs are still extremely dangerous ^^^s, and can easily kill us if we are not skillful. 3.  a hybrid of 2, just make it so that once we charm a mob, whether it be ^^^ or vvv, they are rendered a no arrow mob until their death or their encounter is broken, regardless of whether they remained charmed.  This means that if charm breaks, we dont have the opportunity to solo a heroic mob, and the mob would not be hugely powerful with a piddly reward. i am sure theres others, but i get to go home now, so discuss amongst yourselves. </span><div></div>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <P>Perhaps you should jsut look at this from a differrent angle.</P> <P>The more I think about it the more I think the Dev are simply giving you more places where you can use your charm rather than affering you an enhancement to it.</P> <P>If you are in RE or SE and NEED a pet, then you can find one.  It might be really dangerous to use it but it is there.   On the other hand, you would be a fool to charm a ^^^ giant in EF to kill icewolves as the risk would be far to great and you get no real benefit.  So you are much better off taking a solo mob or a vvv and taking advantage of the charm without the risk.</P> <P>It isn't really a nerf or a bump...just a way of allowing you to use it in more places.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>this is EXACTLY the point i was trying to make.  this change went in simply to give us more charmable mobs, no other reason.  <BR><BR>the wierd, f@cked up side effect of this is 2 twofold: <BR><BR>1.  we can effectively remove the risk of charm by charming vvv mobs and rendering them far more powerful while charmed - yet avoid the risk of our pet turning on us and killing us because once charm breaks we just have a piddly little vvv mob looking to give us 50 lashes with a wet noodle.  <BR><BR>2.  we can effectively allow enemies to kill heroic encounters for us by charming a heroic mob, rendering it FAR less powerful, having it attack a solo conned mob, allowing the solo conned mob to reduce the ^^^'s health to 1-2%, breaking the charm then stunning/rooting/mezzing each mob as as we please, ticking off that final 1-2% on our own and getting credit for the kill.  <BR><BR>i will from now on refer to #2 as *<U><B>REVERSE COERCING</B></U>*, i.e. coercing mobs to commit suicide for our benefit (as opposed to coercing mobs to commit homicide for our benefit).  <BR><BR>/flex, fear the Reverse Coercer! </SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Lol i used to try that wiht the way charmed is now but when i noticed they take over my buffs well you all know the story! great post tho thx!<BR>

[Nerj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Dystrax wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><BR>theres a couple easy options to fix this.<BR><BR>1.  let ^^^ mobs stay ^^^ mobs while we have them charmed.  the mobs we fight won't be able to kill the ^^^ at the same rate as a no-arrow mob, this will prevent us from being able to force the ^^^ to commit suicide.  (this probably won't happen, but it would be sweet).</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>Have XP based on level of charmed MOB. If it is make the MOB being attacked then it is no XP no Loot case.</FONT><BR><BR>2.  do what the above poster suggests - make a ^^^ that has been charmed only ever give out single target XP and loot.  this is a bad idea imo, because it downplays the skill it would take to successfully reverse coerce.  when charm breaks, these mobs are still extremely dangerous ^^^s, and can easily kill us if we are not skillful. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>Problem witht his is how it would be able to be coded. The MOB reverting backs to an NPC mob and level is ez to maintain. However, keeping track of those in the group helping with the kill would also need to be done, as a tank could killed the MOB for loot too. The other problem is an outside the group PC could also kill the MOB expecting a high payout, especially if the MOB was above 50%. What about the case of taking a grey MOB and boosting the power on it. Should the loot table go up for those?<BR></FONT><BR>3.  a hybrid of 2, just make it so that once we charm a mob, whether it be ^^^ or vvv, they are rendered a no arrow mob until their death or their encounter is broken, regardless of whether they remained charmed.  This means that if charm breaks, we dont have the opportunity to solo a heroic mob, and the mob would not be hugely powerful with a piddly reward. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>Downside here would be the ability to do quests without a group. Charm enough MOBs then have get beaten down and then release and kill for the quest credit.<BR></FONT><BR>i am sure theres others, but i get to go home now, so discuss amongst yourselves.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Frankly, I think the current implementation is the best. A better quality spell should have a chance to break less often and the resulting loot IS THE REWARD for the HIGH risk the Coercer is taking. If you are losing the damage of the ^^^ and risk of getting killed quickly on a break is also HIGH, then some reward should be involved in this. The possibilty of a good loot drop is that reward. There is no guarantee that your will get a loot drop or that it will be a good one. However, the risk is there and it appears so is the reward.<BR>

[Abado]

Was just playing on test after the patch on the 8th (about 2 hours ago). Mobs have been weakened a bit, but I can't help but feel charm was nerfed. It didn't matter what I used it on, it basically always broke within about 90 seconds. Granted I only have App1, but still..... it's pretty much useless like this. Unless I'm just having a string of bad luck. <div></div>

[PigLick]

Nope, not just you, I was just coming to post the same thing. The patch notes said they increased the frequency of the checks for a break but wow. Like you, I'm lucky to even get through one fight without a break. Already did a feedback, and heading over to the in-testing boards to see if there's any mention there. Besides the other issues being discussed about charm, the durations felt just about right last night. Now they're way too short. PigLick <div></div>

[Azmode]

Bah I got 2 words for charm already.... SCRAP IT!  Enough is enough its sickening.