I honestly can't believe I made a Coercer =(

[Petgroup]

<DIV>Other classes can mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can Haste others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can give power to other group memebers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can equip 2-3 items and beat our power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can .................................................. ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above does not even pertain to Illusionists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do we get thats so special again ? Ahhh yes, we get a foamy football.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ol'b]

<DIV>yup coercer = dead class</DIV>

[Erasm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Other classes can mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes, but they cant keep them mezzed. The closest is swashbuckler who can only keep something mezzed half the time. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Not a big deal. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Stuns dont last very long, so everyone benefits from more stuns. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can Haste others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>It stacks. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Also not a big deal. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can give power to other group memebers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Not nearly as well as enchanters. A Bards power regen doesnt even cover thier cost. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can equip 2-3 items and beat our power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>It stacks. And its needed to stack. Those items are very high end and the amount gained from those items isnt nearly enough to replace your power regen. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can .................................................. ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above does not even pertain to Illusionists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do we get thats so special again ? Ahhh yes, we get a foamy football.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do Guardians whine because other classes can tank? Do wizards whine because other classes can fill a DPS role? No ( well some of the "slower" ones). No other class can do ALL of that. No other class can do it as well ( broken spells not withstanding). <BR>

[Aoi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erasmus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Other classes can mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes, but they cant keep them mezzed. The closest is swashbuckler who can only keep something mezzed half the time. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Not a big deal. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Stuns dont last very long, so everyone benefits from more stuns. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can Haste others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>It stacks. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Also not a big deal. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can give power to other group memebers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Not nearly as well as enchanters. A Bards power regen doesnt even cover thier cost. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can equip 2-3 items and beat our power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>It stacks. And its needed to stack. Those items are very high end and the amount gained from those items isnt nearly enough to replace your power regen. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can .................................................. ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above does not even pertain to Illusionists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do we get thats so special again ? Ahhh yes, we get a foamy football.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do Guardians whine because other classes can tank? Do wizards whine because other classes can fill a DPS role? No ( well some of the "slower" ones). No other class can do ALL of that. No other class can do it as well ( broken spells not withstanding). <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Erasmus, you ever consider that maybe the multiple items you highlight as "Not a big deal" perhaps <EM>were</EM> to those who chose coercer?</P> <P>The OP felt like posting his frustrations with the class, and did it in the right place.  What exactly is your problem with that other than an inane desire to be confrontational?</P> <P>(cough) Mayo (cough)</P> <P>Cyene</P>

[Petgroup]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erasmus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Other classes can mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes, but they cant keep them mezzed. The closest is swashbuckler who can only keep something mezzed half the time. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Not a big deal. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Stuns dont last very long, so everyone benefits from more stuns. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can Haste others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>It stacks. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Also not a big deal. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can give power to other group memebers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Not nearly as well as enchanters. A Bards power regen doesnt even cover thier cost. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can equip 2-3 items and beat our power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>It stacks. And its needed to stack. Those items are very high end and the amount gained from those items isnt nearly enough to replace your power regen. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can .................................................. ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above does not even pertain to Illusionists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do we get thats so special again ? Ahhh yes, we get a foamy football.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do Guardians whine because other classes can tank? Do wizards whine because other classes can fill a DPS role? No ( well some of the "slower" ones). No other class can do ALL of that. No other class can do it as well ( broken spells not withstanding). <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I believe at the START of EQ2 Gaurdians get to wear better armor than other tanks. Everyone knew that and it was in the Prima guide also. Paladins get heals and so on. If you wanna be a main tank on a raid, you arent a monk, you aren't a warlock, its always a Gaurdian.</P> <P>Mind's eye is high end and was nerfed.</P> <P>Wizzies can NOW out dps any other class, like they <STRONG>should</STRONG>.</P> <P>Charm you say isnt a big deal. 95% of the enchanters went Coercer for charm. I fit into that category.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Erasm]

<DIV>My point was that another class being able to do the same thing isnt a reason to hate your class. I understand that charm  is very important to most coercers. Hell, thats why I played one in beta. Honestly, the only reason im here on these forums ( the coercer side) is for useful info on strategies for enchanters. Its kinda hard though when its nothing but incessant ( and probably justified) complaining. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anything, you are being more confrontational than I ( see the last line of your post). I dont wish to start an arguement. I just want people to start to realize that everything isnt all doom and gloom. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: this is in response to Aoines post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Erasmus on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[Erasm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Charm you say isnt a big deal. 95% of the enchanters went Coercer for charm. I fit into that category.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You misunderstand me. Charm IS a HUGE deal. Its just not a big deal that another class can do it. Im not argueing that charm should/shouldnt be better than thiers. <DIV></FONT></DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Erasmus guess what?</DIV> <DIV>Guess what I am lvl 50 coercer with all my offensive spells at Adept 3 and Master 1, rest spells at Adept 1 or Adept 3. I had my fair share of raiding from Angler in TS to Eyeballs in Meeting of Mind and IT IS DOOM AND GLOOM as it stand now</DIV>

[Aoi]

<DIV>Nor do I want to be conrtonational, but illusionists hijacking coercer's posts and coercers hijacking illusionst's posts has become somewhat of an epidemic lately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we both agree all enchanters need help, then why come here an undermine the common goal?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And woudn't you agree "doom and gloom" is entirely subjecive?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You ususally make good posts, I just don't understand the deviation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV>

[Erasm]

<DIV>Aye doom and gloom is subjective. And the good usually isnt posted ( just enjoyed in game). Im not here to Hijack. Im here because chanters share alot of tactics, and Illusionists are pretty quiet ( Mayo and Vurin excluded). So I come here to keep up on strategy so I can be the best enchanter I can. It jsut gets extremely annoying when there is nothing at all but doom and gloom posts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, back to the non-hijacking part: No class has a class specific role as it relates to one ability or type of ability. It goes against the intentions of the game. In places where these roles start to develop, nerfs come in. Every single spell type has a counterpart in another class. This will never change, and it shouldnt. What needs to change are the strengths of the different spell lines. </DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Erasmus my friend if spells and skills of Illusionists working as intended and if currenly game for Illusionist not gloom and doom it doesn't mean that same goes for Coercer</DIV>

[Erasm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Erasmus my friend if spells and skills of Illusionists working as intended and if currenly game for Illusionist not gloom and doom it doesn't mean that same goes for Coercer</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> It has nothing to do with illusionsits Tan. Im not posting here as an illusionist. Im posting as a fellow EQ2 player. Nothing is working as intended as far as im concerned. For everything SOE fixes, they break 10 more things.  Im not going to argue at all about illusionist vs. Coercer. Ive played both at one time or another, and I firmly believe illusionists are much better than coercers, and that that needs to be fixed. Im on your side <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I just want to see some constructive posts to get things fixed on both sides.

[Daga]

<DIV>Wizard posting here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to agree with Erasmus.  Be vocal, be heard, and be constructive.  Remember it wasn't so long ago, Wizzies sucked.  They weren't dealing good damage at all, and it was so bad, I was being turned down for groups.  But we eventually were heard and it got reversed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's easy to say now, because we DID get fixed, but my advice is be as vocal and present a strong case.  If someone like Mayo shows up to derail it, Ignore him.  Maybe he will one day see that he needs to better his class, not downgrade another, but it is a fact of any MMOG, someone always has class envy, and nerfs will be shouted from the rooftops.  The only thing to do is present your BEST case and stay on target.  </DIV>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Other classes can mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can Haste others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can give power to other group memebers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can equip 2-3 items and beat our power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can .................................................. ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above does not even pertain to Illusionists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff33>What do we get thats so special again ?</FONT> Ahhh yes, we get a foamy football.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes its true. Everyone and his mother can stun, stifle or even mez. They can also haste, power regen or what ever.</P> <P>But the question "What do we get thats so special again ?"<FONT color=#ccff33> </FONT>could also be asked by any other class, not only coercer / enchanter and the answer would always be the same. I cannot think of ANY unique ability in this game for any class. Everything one class gets, there is at least one other, usually several other classes that have this ability as well to some degree. My monk can kick and stifle, invis and feign death, he can taunt and buff and what not. He even can heal ! Anything special? Anything unique? </P> <P>If you want to play a class with unique abilities then you do not only play the wrong class, you prolly play the wrong game. Cause its same for all classes. Beguile is maybe the spell that comes closest to being unique that i can think of. But it seems SOE is very afraid to hand out unique abilities and actually give these some power. </P>

[xrippe]

<DIV>Bet you any money that when they finally do fix the charm issues they will really bump you guys up to make up for the way you have been treated.</DIV>

[Aoi]

<DIV>"It has nothing to do with illusionsits Tan. Im not posting here as an illusionist. Im posting as a fellow EQ2 player. Nothing is working as intended as far as im concerned. For everything SOE fixes, they break 10 more things.  Im not going to argue at all about illusionist vs. Coercer. Ive played both at one time or another, and I firmly believe illusionists are much better than coercers, and that that needs to be fixed. Im on your side <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> I just want to see some constructive posts to get things fixed on both sides"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I couldn't agree more.  If we could get both subclasses to share that attitude (and believe me, both subclasses are equally guilty here) I think our collective issues would get fixed much faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way, if you haven't already, Illusionists need to make a consolidated issues post on the Spells and Abilities forum.  I think it would go a long way in allowing both sides to see what each other is dealing with (assuming it doesn't get hijacked).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV>

[Knightma]

<DIV>I think I have figured out SoE's "vision" for coercers.  We are the jack of all trades, master of none.  Allow me to explain:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Crowd Control.  We can do this, we are not the best at it, and many other classes can fill this role as well or better than we can.  But we can do this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) DPS.  We can do damage.  Its horribly underpowered damage, and I would pick us last over just about any other class for damage...but we do have spells that damage the mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Power Regen.  We can do this.  We are decent at it.  But the funny thing is, that if you have a Prismatic Weapon, Robe of the Invoker, Golden Efreeti Boots, and a few other nifty little items your power regen per tick is actually better than what coercer's could give you.  You cannot tell me that whatever crazy numbers were posted about Coercer power regen were the reason that we were nerfed when you can duplicate those numbers with power regen items and clarity/insight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Utility spells.  We do have some of these.  Most are truely pathetic spells that you would never cast or be chosen for a group because you have them. But we do have utility spells that we can cast.  Other classes have better ones, more useful ones, more desired ones...but we do have them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Heals.  As far as I know we cannot heal.  This could put a hole in my Jack of All Trades theory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tan made a post about a one time only /respec for Coercers to become Illusionists.  I thought it was tongue in cheek at the time, but the more i think about it......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to request a one time /respec from SoE....however, I don't want to become an illusionist.  Why trade one gimpy caster class for another.  I would like to be able to /respec to a Wizard or Warlock.  At least they have a fully defined role and can actually do what they were created to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nyco Tine of the Shard</DIV> <DIV>50 Coercer (all but retired)</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV>

[Bravnik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erasmus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Aye doom and gloom is subjective. And the good usually isnt posted ( just enjoyed in game). Im not here to Hijack. Im here because chanters share alot of tactics, and Illusionists are pretty quiet ( Mayo and Vurin excluded). So I come here to keep up on strategy so I can be the best enchanter I can. It jsut gets extremely annoying when there is nothing at all but doom and gloom posts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, back to the non-hijacking part: No class has a class specific role as it relates to one ability or type of ability. It goes against the intentions of the game. In places where these roles start to develop, nerfs come in. Every single spell type has a counterpart in another class. This will never change, and it shouldnt. What needs to change are the strengths of the different spell lines. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> How about this one...This is the COERCER forum....if you are not a Coercer, then what are you doing here? Just trying to cause arguements? I suggest you just go to your own forum and discuss your class issues...hmmmmm. Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Ol'b]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>It has nothing to do with illusionsits Tan. Im not posting here as an illusionist. Im posting as a fellow EQ2 player. Nothing is working as intended as far as im concerned. For everything SOE fixes, they break 10 more things.  Im not going to argue at all about illusionist vs. Coercer. Ive played both at one time or another, and I firmly believe illusionists are much better than coercers, and that that needs to be fixed. Im on your side <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> I just want to see some constructive posts to get things fixed on both sides. <HR> </P> <P>I need some serious cowboy up shiat kickin' boots on to walk through this pile of bull shiat</P>

[Petgroup]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zitha wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Other classes can mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can Haste others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can give power to other group memebers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can equip 2-3 items and beat our power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes can .................................................. ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above does not even pertain to Illusionists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff33>What do we get thats so special again ?</FONT> Ahhh yes, we get a foamy football.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes its true. Everyone and his mother can stun, stifle or even mez. They can also haste, power regen or what ever.</P> <P>But the question "What do we get thats so special again ?"<FONT color=#ccff33> </FONT>could also be asked by any other class, not only coercer / enchanter and the answer would always be the same. I cannot think of ANY unique ability in this game for any class. Everything one class gets, there is at least one other, usually several other classes that have this ability as well to some degree. My monk can kick and stifle, invis and feign death, he can taunt and buff and what not. He even can heal ! Anything special? Anything unique? </P> <P>If you want to play a class with unique abilities then you do not only play the wrong class, you prolly play the wrong game. Cause its same for all classes. Beguile is maybe the spell that comes closest to being unique that i can think of. But it seems SOE is very afraid to hand out unique abilities and actually give these some power. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Maybe you missed it but</P> <P>Wizards get kings of dps now (like they shoulda been the whole time)</P> <P>Paladins are healing tanks. </P> <P>Gaurdians can wear the best armor in the game.</P> <P>I forget the best healer but it isn't a druid/shammy.</P> <P>And so on...........</P> <P>Fixing Beguile alone will not fix our class.</P> <P> </P>

[Erasm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Edited so as to not feed the trolls. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Erasmus on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 PM</span>

[xtroze]

<DIV>"I have to agree with Erasmus.  Be vocal, be heard, and be constructive.  Remember it wasn't so long ago, Wizzies sucked.  They weren't dealing good damage at all, and it was so bad, I was being turned down for groups.  But we eventually were heard and it got reversed."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The funny part is coercers were half your DPS prior to your fix, so as a mage class our DPS is laughable.  Our CC ability is 1 mob every 10 secs and lasts 40 sec. Even with these two big restrictions the worst restriction is most of the spells other classes want to use do not match up well with mez.  This ends up with either they limit their abilities to let us mez or we do not mez and they use full abilities.  As a wizard which one would you pick concidering we can just mez a few at best?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did not become a coercer to be just a mana battery for a group, but my wizard friend if we didn't bring that to a group would you ever pick a coercer over any other subclass in the game based on our other skills we can add to a group?  Now we get big parts of our mana regen nurfed by up to 80% and you can see the frustrations with the first poster.  It boils down to would an extra healer/tank or DPS be better in a group then a coercer? The answer is yes, I would not select even myself over other classes and that is sad. We are so limited in all are areas they either become usless or other classes can do them too AND bring other good thing to a group that we can not bring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xtro</DIV>

[neble]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR>Charm you say isnt a big deal. 95% of the enchanters went Coercer for charm. I fit into that category.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>82.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.<BR>

[Chrysostom]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<DIV> </DIV><DIV>Other classes can charm.</DIV><DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Forgive my ignorance, but what other classes can charm?

[Eeow]

<DIV>btw Clarity Adept 3 ticking 53 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not 40 </DIV> <DIV>and some items doesnt work in combat like Robe of Invoker. it has 20 power tick but out of combat ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>chrys i guess bards can charm</DIV> <DIV>and who cares charm ? u cant use it in RAIDS!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Eeowan on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Eeowan its wierd because MASTER 1 Clarity is 40 power/6s</DIV>

[Eeow]

<DIV>test it !!! </DIV> <DIV>i did <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV>25 tick my self power regen and 53 clarity <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Test master 1 ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And by the way ....</DIV> <DIV>Power regeneration IN and OUT of combat IS different ... much like for Insight</DIV> <DIV>Insight 53 power/tic out of combat 40 power/tic in combat logically to assume </DIV> <DIV>Clarity Apprentice 1 53power/tic out of combat 40 power/tic in combat</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh btw</DIV> <DIV>Mind Eye Apprentice 1 do 8 power/4.5s and Mind Eye Master 1 do 10power/4.5s ... tested too</DIV>

[Ma]

I am sick of hearing these overexagerated complaints. The coercer class is still completly functional but is in need of a few tweeks like many other classes. Yea other classes can heal and other classes can do dmg I dont think there is one ability that only one class has. Yes some classes do things better then others and coercers currently have the best power regeneration and illusionist the best mez. There are quite a few items with power regeneration and most of them are out of combat power regeneration which doesnt matter anyway because they still STACK with the coercer/illusionist spells.

[Blub]

<b> I am sick of hearing these overexagerated complaints.</b>How about not reading them then? Its not that anyone here cares about your oppinion anyway.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Mayo as it stands now coercer arent funtional</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On  a raid you can take single Illsionist and safely retied 2 coercer yep that's right 1 lvl 50 Illi = 2 lvl 50 coercer....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it stands now gear give person around 150 power/tic</DIV> <DIV>20 Robe</DIV> <DIV>20 Boots</DIV> <DIV>24 Sheild</DIV> <DIV>70 Totem</DIV> <DIV>12 Prism weapon</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do the math 20+20+24+70+12 = 146 power per tic IN COMBAT regeneration</DIV> <DIV>And on top of it toss here Manastone ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what for need enchanter on raid? Definitely NOT for power regeneration, definitly NOT for DPS (frankly altouth raid DPS of Illusionist 2X DPS of coercer they both laughable compare to bruiser/monk/warlock/wizard or what the hell even scouts outdamage us). Mmmmm what left? Ah! buffs - well since coercer cannt give buffs outside of group while Illusionist can and buffs pretty much similar (give or take) you dont need coercer here either (you can have 1 illi to serve whole raid or you can have 1 coercer per each group .... choice is yours)... What esle? Ah danm almost fogot some fights actually requied quete heavy crowed control... And guess what? coercer cannt do that - 2 mob per coercer or 4 mob per illusionst ... again choice is yours but ... I'll take Illusionist any day of week and twice on sunday for CC</DIV>

[xtroze]

<DIV>Mayo, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Move along troll...</DIV>

[Eeow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Mayo as it stands now coercer arent funtional</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On  a raid you can take single Illsionist and safely retied 2 coercer yep that's right 1 lvl 50 Illi = 2 lvl 50 coercer....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it stands now gear give person around 150 power/tic</DIV> <DIV>20 Robe</DIV> <DIV>20 Boots</DIV> <DIV>24 Sheild</DIV> <DIV>70 Totem</DIV> <DIV>12 Prism weapon</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do the math 20+20+24+70+12 = 146 power per tic IN COMBAT regeneration</DIV> <DIV>And on top of it toss here Manastone ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what for need enchanter on raid? Definitely NOT for power regeneration, definitly NOT for DPS (frankly altouth raid DPS of Illusionist 2X DPS of coercer they both laughable compare to bruiser/monk/warlock/wizard or what the hell even scouts outdamage us). Mmmmm what left? Ah! buffs - well since coercer cannt give buffs outside of group while Illusionist can and buffs pretty much similar (give or take) you dont need coercer here either (you can have 1 illi to serve whole raid or you can have 1 coercer per each group .... choice is yours)... What esle? Ah danm almost fogot some fights actually requied quete heavy crowed control... And guess what? coercer cannt do that - 2 mob per coercer or 4 mob per illusionst ... again choice is yours but ... I'll take Illusionist any day of week and twice on sunday for CC</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <DIV>tanatus you are wrong on some calculations</DIV> <DIV>my clarity 53 tick in combat sorry for your master1 clarity....</DIV> <DIV>and prismatic weapons DOESNT tick incombat!!!</DIV> <DIV>robe ? if robe of invoker 20 power tick OUT of Combat</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pls close your all buffs and try test in safe combat ( against grey mobs ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV>you need more information about some items...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>chanters for RAIDS thats all... ( mezz and mana battery,mana drain,area stun stiffle for Boss minions,&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> who cares our intelligence and wisdom buff (i am not saying chanters buff useless) ? strength stamina and agility more important cuz melee DPS need str and agility...Tank need more health...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=24646" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=24646</A></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Eeowan on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 PM</span>

[Icewolf99]

I'm going to retire mine until they are fixed, or if they aren't soon, he'll be deleted. When I get out nuked by Priest classes, something is very wrong. I'll probably roll a necro, as I rolled a coercer because I thought they could solo well and not just be a grouping class. Right now I can solo 2 or 3 times faster with my warden thats the same level (31).CC is a total joke. Roots don't hold, ONE mez that takes forever to recast and gets resisted way too much, stuns break about 75% of the time on the first hit or tick of a DOT. Where's the CC everyone says we get to make up for the DPS we don't?Our Mez should be super fast recast and super fast refreash as that ONE spell is what everyone expects of us in groups right after power regen, which was nerfed to heck and back.Right now the delete option is looking really good.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Eeowan </DIV> <DIV>Robe and prismatic broken atm - Developer team looking onto it, it been mentioned on boards couple times - you know it I know it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You dont have str buff, you dont sta buff - if you think are have it you must smoking something really good. We have int/agi buff and again we both know that agi have soft cap 150 and int have soft cap 200 - increasing those 2 stats above this marks have zero effect.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point again very simple - you DONT need enchanter for power regeneration during raid because gear give much much more then coercer can. Yes if your guild gear suck donkey ball then yes clarity and insight provide some help with it... otherwise? stick with totems, manastones, robes, boots, sheild prism weapon</DIV> <DIV>You dont need <STRONG><U>coercer</U></STRONG> for CC either because maximum you can do is lock 2 mobs</DIV> <DIV>Yes you can drain mobs but you cannt drain encounter - that's illusionists do. You cannt stifle bosses either. FYI - Withering silence stifle effect completely resisted on boss mobs and only power drain part work</DIV> <DIV>You dont need or want <STRONG><U>coercer</U></STRONG> for buffing either... You cannt haste outside of group, you cannt give mind eye outside of group, your resistance buff usefull only vs. enchanter type mob (roflmao like enchanters mobs nuke for more then enchanters roflmao).. The ONLY usefull buff you have Signet of Realization that boost agi by 46 but once again - agi above 150 useless in terms of damage avoidance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buttom line why bother with coercer then you can take 1 Illusionist on raid and replaces 2 coercers with it?</DIV>

[Ma]

Tant Alot of those items are out of combat regeberation they even say it. That is complete bull that 2 coercer = 1 illus and you know it. Coercer still have the best power regen and can mez just as good as a troub and almost as good as an illus which doesnt say much in this game. What is up with this crap you say about items adding so much power regen you dont need illus/coercer pow regen? Of course you dont need hp/ac buffs either but they all help and not only that our power regens(the best buffs in the game)STACK with these items. Enchanters power regen is there bread and butter and we do it very well.

[Azmode]

<DIV>Mayo.. why do you even care??  Go solo your Yellow ^^.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Mayo - if you read what Developers notes said you should know</DIV> <DIV>Robe, Boots, Prism weapons, Kite Sheild, Totem - every single item after resent patch (according to Dev Team msg) have FLAT power regeneration. Its not % to base anymore, Its not in or out combat - its FLAT numbers - we both know it</DIV> <DIV>Robe, Boots - 20 power tic</DIV> <DIV>Kite Sheild - 24 power tic</DIV> <DIV>Prism Weapon - 12 power tic</DIV> <DIV>Totem of Hawk - 70 power tic</DIV> <DIV>Manastone - 400 mana for 700 health</DIV> <DIV>Combine em and do simple math... you got WAY over 150 power per tic IN and OUT combat just with gear ... Oh btw have I mentioned that manastone eat ward not health if you have shaman with ya? ... yes infinitive mana for no health cost...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it stands now not coercer nor illusionist have ANY power regeneration so to speak. 40 power/tic  compare to 150+ from gear - incomparable value's. To bring coercers power reg INLINE with gear you need boost coercer power reg up to 150-160 combined. Nerf was absolutely no justification in the light of power regeneration that comes from gear. If you so wholeheartly believe that 150-200 power per tic is way out of balance you should now cry river about nerfing equipment Robe of Invoker, GEBs, Ring from N'Kaz the Unnatural (15 power per tic just from ring), Prism Weapon, Totem of Hawk so combined power regeneration from all this items not exceeded 40 power a tic... But somehow I dont see you doing that why? Or in your eyes 150 power per tic from Coercer was game disbalancing and 150 power tic from gear is perfectly balanced?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets not try hide fact that Illusionist can lock twice as much mobs as coercer and can do it twice as fast as coercer do. That's a simple fact you cannt deny. 2 mez = 4 mob period, 1 mez = 2 mob. Toss here how safe illusionist can mez and you got a picture 1 Illusionist lvl 50 = 2 Coercer lvl 50 in every single area DPS, CC, Buffing</DIV>

[Surian]

I've seen a Bard (unsure of sub-class) charm a mob before, albeit it was a -long- time ago and I have not seen one do it since. However, that could be easily chalked up to the obvious issues with charm.Yes, this is a Coercer forum. Coercer is a sub-class of Enchanter. Illusionist is a sub-class of Enchanter. Sharing tactics is good. I've grouped with Coercers before -- it's rare, but it happens. I like learning about how other classes work, especially one so similar to my own. I'm interested in tactics/issues across both Enchanter classes. Also, at this point, I'm attempting to gather information... and replying to other things as I go along. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (/'reasons')Oh, they're changing robe of the invoker (and a few other items) so that their 'special properties' work in-combat as well as out. I believe, although I do not know for certain, that it stacks with Enchanter power regen, which really is that change's only saving grace for both Enchanter classes as a whole. It rather annoys me on the whole, however.Coercer's aren't the only 'jack of all trades' although I freely admit that after viewing as much information as I could, Illusionists are (yes) better at crowd control. You could say we 'specialise' in it. I'm going to be attempting parser experiments for the dps output comparison, however, while also trying to still dig up posts that have data in them (instead of heresay.) I also think the power-regen nerf was not needed -- slight adjustments are sometimes better than radical changes.I'm mainly stepping in here in defense of the Illusionists reading these forums. Coercers read the Illusionist forums. I read the Enchanter forums, the other class forums... the newbie forum, even different server forums. Lots and lots of PUBLIC forums, my how wonderful.An elitist attitude such as: "This is a Coercer forum, not get out!" is rather... pointless on public message boards.We both need attention, as sub-classes of the Enchanter, as a whole. Right now, Coercer just needs a bit more. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Edit: made this post after reading all the posts on the first page of this thread, without realising there was even a second page. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Decided to add this note at the end in case anyone was wondering why I appear to completely ignore the posts on the second page -- it's because I'm going blind, apparently.Surianka45 IllusionsitBefallenOfficer of Imperium<p>Message Edited by Surianka on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 AM</span>

[Kylal]

<DIV>Yes, please elaborate.  What other classes can charm (more than to make the mob stand there and look stupid, which is no more than a mez).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What other class can take over a mob and have it fight on your behalf? I am curious and want to see the list...</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Bards</DIV>

[Azmode]

Troubadors to be exact. 

[Orki who Pos]

<P>.. and those are the guys that can tank it too if it breaks. (massive agi and def buffs)</P> <P> </P> <P>if they have swan song, they can become practically invulnerable for 35 seconds against all melee mobs.</P> <P>(I will not go into why that's an advantage when charming, and afterwards)</P>

[Zephyrus1]

<P></P> <HR> Azmodeus wrote:<BR>Troubadors to be exact.  <BR> <HR> <P>Don't forget they receive it at a MUCH lower level</P>

[Fizlo]

Lol. Yes Other classes get all those abilities. But, we are the only class that gets them ALL and we do most of them better than the other classes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I could make the same arguement you make about any class imho.  Why be a paladin? other classes heal, other classes tank, etc. <div></div>

[Jehat]

<div></div> <span><blockquote><hr> <div>Other classes can give power to other group memebers.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff0000">Not nearly as well as enchanters. A Bards power regen doesnt even cover thier cost.</font> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> Well... actually wizards have way better regen than we do, its just single target.  Much more useful to healers, especially on raids.  Actually, I think the argument here isn't that other classes can do what we do, its just that they do it far better than we do =/  Excluding mez other classes beat us in all of those categories.  It always comes back to:  what did we get for giving up our ability to tank?  Sub-par DPS, Above average CC, a useless charm, inferior mana regen, 'utility'? We just need a little boost is all =)</span><div></div>