Truce between Illusionists and Coercers

[Knightma]

<DIV>I would like to ask for both sides to stop the endless arguments about which class is better and why, the endless hijacking of threads by the opposing view points, and the personal attacks on outspoken members of their respective communities.  I guarantee it is doing no good to either class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not going to go into whether or not either or both classes have some serious issues, I think everyone understands that both classes do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that, as I am, almost every coercer is very upset at the recent changes that came to our class spells.  Mind's Eye, Torment, Devouring Thoughts, and Beguile are a large number of our spells to have reduced in power in one patch.  Complaining about how that makes Illusionists a better class choice will in the end only lead to one result.  They will not improve Coercers, they will nerf Illusionists.  I don't believe nerfing an already underpowered class will benefit either community and it will not do anything to help fix our broken/underpowered spells. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would ask that if you wish to bring your concerns about the Coercer class to SoE's attention that you do so, however, please leave illusionists out of the equation.  Their class has nothing to do with our problems.  I would also ask that illusionists stop posting on coercer concern threads.  I know that some of you are trying to help put better numbers or facts to misinformation that Coercer's have about your class, but it is only further inflaming an already angry group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want SoE to address your concerns, please try to bring to light the problems.  If you complain about other classes you will only get SoE to react as they have for our class, but slaughtering them.  I do not believe in an eye for an eye mentality, it is pointless and does not help the real concerns that our class has. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nyco Tine</DIV> <DIV>50 Coercer (considering retirement)</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV>

[Zephyrus1]

<DIV>Though I'm not going to get myself trapped in much of this ongoing debate, I did just want to throw one thing out there...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night (after the patch), I was turned down from 2 groups as a Coercer, because shortly after being invited an Illusionist went lfg.  If you think the unbalance doesn't affect us, I think you're sorely mistaken.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Knightmair ...</DIV> <DIV>I have have my fair part of raiding and tell you what any lvl 43+ illusionist can perform echanters duty on raid better then 2 lvl 50 coercer</DIV> <DIV>Please enlight me silly what crucial problem have Illusionists atm save lacking DPS vs. single target ecounters</DIV> <DIV>Personally I'd love to see 2 option</DIV> <DIV>a) Give every coercer reroll into illusionist of equal lvl and remove coercer as a class from the game because it dont have any place or use</DIV> <DIV>b) Total rewamp class from lvl 1 to lvl 50 every single spell every single ability</DIV> <DIV>Untill then? I have my warlock I happily solo with him named mobs for loot, exp and fun (ya they cons green, ya they kick my butt at occasion but I can do it with some luck...)</DIV> <DIV>Have a nice day</DIV> <DIV>Mondor lvl 50 coercer of Nekltuos Blackmoore guild - retied mostly</DIV>

[ericb1]

Tanatus...his point is that who the heck cares about what Illusionist can and can't do. The class we are worried about here is Coercers. I could care less if an Illusionist could nuke for 1000 points at level 30 if only our class was playable. Our goal should be to get coercers improved, not worry about whether an illusionist can do this or that. Sure, they are a good basis for comparison, but as is pointed out, that may just succeed in breaking illusionists. Personally, I don't want to see any other classes get nerfed. I just want ours to be viable. At this point it really isn't. So lets talk about improving coercers, not making comparisons to illusionists. I could care less what they can or can't do. I think that is the point of the thread. Why bicker with illusionist about who can or can't do what?

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well simple answer would be because we are SAME class and we share SAME niche in game. So we either compareable and interchargable for general game or we are not. As it stands now 2 lvl 50 coercer = 1 lvl 43 illusionist in terms of usefullness on a raid..</DIV> <DIV>But you right I care less that can and what cannt Illusionist do. I did not made my coercer to compete with Illusionist who have better crack or haste. I made coercer to play puppet master who have highest situational DPS in game via charmed pet for a price of high mortality. I seen good spell set to control charmed pet - Mez, fast long lasting single target stun, resistance debuff ... I seen charm as unique and class defining ability of coercer that make me different from any other class in game.</DIV> <DIV>I'd gladly give up every single untility spell and DD for normal functional charm</DIV>

[Signal9]

<DIV>Honestly, at this point, I don't much care anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been playing since what?   November 13?  Time to flush it all away, and reactivate my lvl 17 Druid (with more bugged spells, thanx ) since I can't have fun with my primary char.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing to Illusionists was the only way to see the relative strengths of the class, since it's our only counterpart.  But the posts did turn into a big Charlie-Foxtrot  with folks cross-posting BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am just floored by Ryan's post that we need to give him a post with details.  /boggle  And the implied assumption that we were all happy with our class prior to the last patch  ( Why the sudden influx of complaints?  Errrr.....yeah)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the reason behind our latest nerf (not fix, not balance, N.E.R.F.) was....  Heck, why did we just get nerfed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not seeing any logic behind these decisions, and that is more frightening than having changes applied for merely arbitrary reasoning.  The only consistency is the surety of the Tidy-Bowl™ Death-spiral we're in.</DIV>

[Neverborn]

<DIV>Thank you OP, your point is well taken. I really don't think you can complain about illusionists posting correct numbers when people distort them though... even though it is lame to compare our two classes, we arn't going to let you make us look like DPS power houses, becuase god forbid they actually might believe you, considering it doesn't seem any one who makes decsisions over there has played an enchanter class 1-50. I will continue to be supportive of Coercer upgrades, and I'm glad you guys are getting "looked at". Just hope "re-evaluating mage damage" doesn't turn into another double nerf for both our classes. And Tant, I honestly believe if you spent as much time playing a re-rolled illusionist as you do posting on here, you would already be level 50 and infinitely happy in your blissfull ignorance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Myrid</DIV>

[Taz]

<DIV>As a 49 Illusionist, I couldn't agree more with the original poster. I would also have to go as far as to say that it has been the best written "outside of the box" view of the entire enchanter...coercer...illusionist uproar lately. /applaud</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ol'b]

<DIV>coercer = dead class  illusionest = must have for serious raid group</DIV>

[jaboogw]

Hate to bust your bubble, but Coercer still regens much more power than an illusionist. I've experienced this myself, in several raids (many lasting 15-20 mins)and of course everyone in the raid had enough power, but the raid group containing the coercer had full to almost full power bars throughout the duration of several raids. The amount now isn't too terribly significant, and a coercer and illusionist both can manage a raid's power. However, in the realm of power regen coercer is still king. Coercer is not a dead class, and is still highly viable and desired. Not to mention now, with the attention of the Devs, the scope of power for the coercer will only get better.

[xtroze]

<DIV>If all our comparisons and posts about the illusionist class gets them nurfed to the point that their class is unusable or unwanted  then they really needed that nurf.  We coercers do not nurf we just layout the numbers and information. SOE might look at that information and run some "tests" and either nurf them out of the game or do nothing at all. Hell, they might even increase all their abilities. You talk like it's a battle between our subclasses when it is a game owned by SOE and they make all the calls. Now in SOE's wisdom we coercers are now fine with our latest nurfs and if they make the illusionist class just right too like us then I will be as big as the illusionist have been with us and tell them it is no big deal or "we really are not the much different now etc etc".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just remember any nurfs on the illusionists is SOE doing the right thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xtro</DIV> <P>Message Edited by xtrozero on <SPAN class=date_text>03-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:12 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by xtrozero on <span class=date_text>03-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

[Surian]

"If all our comparisons and posts about the illusionist class gets them nurfed to the point that their class is unusable or unwanted then they really needed that nurf."I would assume that this would -also- mean that all the whining... I mean, comparisions about the coercer class I saw in the Illusionist forum means that the Coercers needed to be nurfed like they just were.Um, nah, I can't swallow that. Neither class needs a nerf, and the nerfing was done unfairly anyways. What the OP is trying to say is this: try to get your class -buffed- because nerfing Illusionists will mean you'll never be stronger than you are now.From what I've been reading, Coercers have just as much fun trying to solo as Illusionists do... not sure on the specific details but the problems are still there. And we share some similar issues in group situations even, despite our differences. So I can understand some of your class problems... and I'm currently struggling with my own class' problems. But waving around the nerf bat will not -improve- your class, it will merely bring Illusionists lower than they are currently (we might be better than you guys at some things, but we are by -far- not the most-desired class in the game) and thereby increase the chances of either class getting nerfed again... the next time someone complains."We coercers do not nurf we just layout the numbers and information. SOE might look at that information and run some "tests" and either nurf them out of the game or do nothing at all."Once again, does this mean the Coercer nerf was justified? Coercers were not originally this way, now they are less powerful than before... and by 'powerful' I mean... well... you know what I mean, really.I ask you this: would you rather remain where you are now, or attempt to get your class buffed back up to where you were or where you 'should be?' Wizards/warlocks got their own back, after being -nerfed.- There's still issues there to be tinkered with, and fixed, and the like, but they got it.Or... would you rather remain where you are, which obviously isn't that great, with the only 'benefit' being the ability to point and laugh at Illusionists because you feel that they are 'equal' to you now?Buff back up, and fix the rest... of Enchanters. Both classes. Please and thank you.And thank you to the OP -- there was plenty of supposed (I say this, because I am not going to presume that all 'you suck and got coercers nerfed!' trolls were actually coercers, that's just mean and unfair) Coercer hi-jacking over in the Illusionist forums at about the same time the reverse was going on in here. We'd be much better off having both Enchanter classes attempting to get SoE's attention, rather than squabbling between the two."(...)when it is a game owned by SOE and they make all the calls."Feedback from the players (players of any kind) is the best way to know how the game is working. If it were so easy to fix a game based entirely on coding and the resources of their own staff, then they would not have... players on the test server, let alone a public test server. There would be no need for people to be Beta testers... it's up in the air as to how much of a difference we actually make, but let's face it -- if we didn't play it, they wouldn't be making it. The CS might be crappy but I highly doubt they make all their decisions arbitrarily.Surianka45 IllusionistBefallenOfficer of Imperium<p>Message Edited by Surianka on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[Cranke]

Wow, I was just about to roll up a character and work on making him a coercer but now I think I'm scared and I will pass! <div></div>