Coercer Updates on Test Server 2/25/04

[Petgroup]

<DIV>- Coercer changes:<BR>  - Demoralizing Gaze should now function correctly.<BR>  - Bewilder's prose text should no longer have any grammar errors.<BR>  - Torment is now called Coercer: Torment to prevent confusion with the Inquisitor and Assassin versions of this spell.<BR>  - <FONT color=#ff3300>Mind's Eye, Dreadful Thoughts, and Consuming Thoughts have had their power reduction reduced to be more in line with that of Illusionists.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>Is the red a nerf to the pow we get / the pow that gets drained  <STRONG>or</STRONG> (non nerf) the pow to cast the spell ?</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>Link for the whole post is here <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=23#M23" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=23#M23</A></FONT></DIV></FONT>

[Kuva]

<DIV>It's a nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Petgroup]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuvala wrote:<BR> <DIV>It's a nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>:smileymad:, Thats there version of updating the Enchanters dps/spells blah blah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Joy</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by nikecmh42 on <span class=date_text>02-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 PM</span>

[naczeln]

Its a nerf invoked by one illusionist troll

[Verit]

Yep too bad to do 2 differents classes to see patch after patch, the same skills. :/I think an original improvement for illu would be a better choice. ^^Lets hope some love on dps or CC.

[Genes]

<DIV>let's try to get Speechless nerfed :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

[Blub]

And what does this tell us? Just start trolling on the spell forum, because sony has a heart for whiners. Make sure however you spam enough claims in the thread that it gets at least 5 pages.But hey finally bewilder was fixed. No of course not the ridiculis casting time of 4 seconds for our fastcast stun, but the grammer errors we all wanted to get removed.

[Ma]

Its not a nerf its a balancing of an overpowered ability. It was inevitable that it would happen.<p>Message Edited by Mayo on <span class=date_text>02-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:01 AM</span>

[Nerj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mayo wrote:<BR>Its not a nerf its a balancing of an overpowered ability. It was inevitable that it would happen.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No it means you need to spend more money on food and drink. Plus we are way underpowered -- where is the "balance for that"?<BR>

[Ma]

Drink has little inpact on in combat power regen. You will still be able to provide more power then an illusionist after this patch and you will still be able to stiffle 4X mobs.

[outputrotati]

<DIV>Mayo you have no clue about coercers.  We can't stifle x4 mobs.  The spell lands, but it doesn't stifle them.  It just drains mana. </DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Mayo [FAAR-NERFED!] you are talking about</DIV> <DIV>Mind drain do 320 power per tic drain if you have enouth mobs in pack</DIV> <DIV>Insight do on 25% more power regeneration within group compare to Clarity </DIV> <DIV>THAT you call balance?</DIV>

[Ma]

Your still going to have better power regen then us just not the unfair amount you had before. Why do you think they nerfed the old arcane challice? It was too powerful. Your power regen is like chain casting the old arcane challice that hit everyone in the group. Thats too powerful. Time to except it.

[Styk]

Looks like illusionist really did a number on your class ..... SoE is a bunch of fools to listening to whiners instead of actually playing a class...

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Mayo agree on that but now many Illusionist ability need to fixed in SAME way like coercer power regeneration was</DIV> <DIV>a) SOE need "adjust" damage of Illusionist AE - 350 per mob vs. 128 per mob .... dont you think Illi need some damage reduction here?</DIV> <DIV>b) 2 line of mez, 1 is totaly uninteruptable - WAY out of balance it trivilize MOST instanced (including raiding zones) beiond belive </DIV> <DIV>c) Power drain Mind Drain and Speechless drain INSANE amout of power imagine 320 power per tic for Mind Drain vs. what? roflmao Devouring Toughts drain like 49 power per tic? Dont you think 320 vs. 49 a little bit WAY to much</DIV>

[nithrill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mayo wrote:<BR>Its not a nerf its a balancing of an overpowered ability. It was inevitable that it would happen. <P>Message Edited by Mayo on <SPAN class=date_text>02-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:01 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Mayo, First let me say this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, chances are that these abilities would have seen a reduction in effectiveness sometime in the future and yes I do think that abilities that trivialize encounters should be looked into. Not necessarily on auto nerf, but from a constructive perspective where increasing the challence of the encounter is as much an option as nerfing the ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said let me now say this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been browsing these forums for three months now and nothing, and I mean nothing, has made me as mad as reading your replies in this thread, where you meagerly try to justify why you did what you did. We know the reasons why as well as you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of your posts were full of envy and hate. You did not post a single positive thing where you tried to suggest constructive ways of solving this problem. All you did was yell at the top of your throat: NERF! NERF! NERF!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You and your fellow groupies have done nothing but cause unnecessary grief to the community as a whole, to the coercer class and to yourself as you lower yourself to the level of the ever growing population of whiners on these forums, who seem to be able to get anything accomplished by just whining about it long enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one am tired of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, instead of the usual "I quit", bla bla bla ... I will do something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As of monday the 28th</DIV> <UL> <LI>I will not log into my account for atleast one whole week.</LI> <LI>I will not log into the SOE forums for atleast one whole month (the Lord knows I can use a break from the whining).</LI></UL>

[Ma]

Nit not every solution can be a happy one. This ability was to powerful you cant make encounters harder on power because then raids would want a coercer even more and it would change gameplay for everyone. The ability is more powerfull then any other ability in the game and its been nimbily dodgeing the nerf bat. It could only hide in the crowd for so long. Yea it sux for you guys losing a unique ability (not the ability to provide power regen itself but the ability to provide massive power regeneration) but it had to be done there was no other solution. I mean why do you think they nerfed Arcane Challice? It was to [FAAR-NERFED!] powefull and what you have here is a auto arcane challice. Stop crying about it you know it is to powerful.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>What done is done lets talk now about 2 mez line of Illusionist and ability to FARM named mobs with uninteruptable mez let see of SOE have balls fix that ability too</DIV>

[Genes]

<DIV>(anyone else notice mayo mentions arcane chalice in Every post he makes lately)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KUPOPO]

<DIV>Mayo, you have no idea what you have started.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Up until this point, enchanters have never been nerfed. Neither illusionists nor coercers. The patch history was one of constant tweaks and fixes that turned enchanters from a micro-managers' nightmare into a viable class. This new patch is a precedent. The next thing they will do is look at manaregen in general, and decided that enchanters as a whole are overpowered. Just like they decided dps was overpowered for wizards. Once you let the nerf genie out of the bottle, there's no putting it back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They will nerf Coercer Clarity. And at the same time they'll nerf Illusionist Insight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you ready to start getting power regen at the bard level? Better get ready for 20 power per 6 second tick at level 50!</DIV> <DIV>And then after both illusionists and coercers complain for a month or so, they'll 'boost' the power regen to 100 a tick. </DIV> <DIV>And lengthen the tick to 30 seconds. And up the aggro you gain from it. Just like they did for wizards.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KUPOPO on <SPAN class=date_text>02-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:43 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by KUPOPO on <span class=date_text>02-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 AM</span>

[Chrysostom]

First, I am an Illusionist of the 32nd season. I truely am sorry you guys were hit with the bat. I did want to weigh in on the soloing DUP point. After hearing Illusionists were supposed to be able to do this I tried many times and in many different ways. Just my 2 cents worth, but I was not able to sucessfully do it because the encounter always resets. You know, the MOb breaks off attack, instantly regains full HP, losses agro, and goes home leaving you with nothing. I can not say what Illusionist could do in the past, but mez kiting does not seem to work any longer.

[Orki who Pos]

<DIV>Chrys, if you get outside of a mobs "area" it will reset, you need to know where it's area is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The trick to doing it successfully is when you mez the mob, move around it to the other side, so the next time you hit/kite it, it will be running back the way it originally came.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This way you will also need a mutch smaller area to do your "kiting" in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is exactly the reason illusionists are superior to the other classes attempting this strategy, you can paralyze the mob, while you move around it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It does take skill, but once you get it down pat, it's not bad at all. It reminds me alot of swarm kiting in EQ1, where people said it was undoable.. untill they watched it.</DIV>

[Aoi]

<DIV>First, Mayo, you make me sick.  You try get a class nerfed out of pure hateful spite, and then come here to gloat.  I hope something really bad happens to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Mind's Eye, Dreadful Thoughts, and Consuming Thoughts have had their power reduction reduced to be more in line with that of Illusionists.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Mind's Eye doesn't have a "power reduction" component, does it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This line from the notes is ambiguous at best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:  And, isn't it "Devouring Thoughts"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyene</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aoine on <span class=date_text>02-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 AM</span>

[Blub]

You can't expect the devs to know all our spells or their effects. it isn't needed anyway as they can inform themself on the board in mayos thread (however due to the limited time, only the topic line will do) and then "fix" the spell in the database.Another imbalance fixed in only 1 minute of working time - great work <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ghouli]

<DIV>Can someone please forward a link where is says that our power regen is being reduced,  this states that power reduction is going to be reduced not regen.  There is a lot of people jumping up and down saying our regen is being effected but I cant find where it mentions this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This message is incorrect one way or another</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Mind's Eye, Dreadful Thoughts, and Consuming Thoughts have had their power reduction reduced to be more in line with that of Illusionists.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Mind's Eye - according to spell description does not have power reduction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am assuming Dreadful thoughts is Devouring Thoughts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So either minds eye was incorrectly placed on the list or the term "Power Reduction reduced" is incorrect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is there a relationship between power drained and power regen?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would hope that all this has been clarified and we are not just making assumptions on the power regen being effected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can someone please explain as I am a bit confused</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devs</DIV> <DIV>Could you please clarify this line as it's causing a great deal of angst amoung coercers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Ghoulies on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:31 PM</span>

[Ma]

The whole point of the thread did not change by innacurate numbers. Coercers keep there groups full on power and you dont need more power regen then you can use. Too powerful cya later. When is this patch going to hit im getting antsy!

[Ghouli]

Mayo, why don't you answer the question. It seems you have a lot to say but nothing worth noting.Can anyone including devs please answer my question (see my previous post)?<p>Message Edited by Ghoulies on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 AM</span>

[Blub]

Changes are live now. Did anyone test it already? (btw they didn't even fixed their errors in the changelog and also still name a spell which doesn't exists, so you can guess how much attention they paid to the feedback on the board)

[Siddie]

<DIV>Hello all, i'm a 45 coercer on crushbone.I've heard often, enchanters were able to kills yellow mobs (not sure if group mobs or solo ones).Prolly i'm not a good soloer becouse i get killed by green solo mob due to my bugged root spells (mob keep pop on me while rooted also if i'm very far from it and if it is mezzed or stunned).</DIV> <DIV>My boyfriend have a guardian 45, we always play together, i can say he can actually kill a solo yellow/orange mob and survive to a orange group mob, not entering in fight and using ,so, the fast regen.So it happens often we run trough a zone, he get a train and lose like 0.5%hp and i get killed by his train becouse of my paper clothes.</DIV> <DIV>I petitioned for the roots, i sent feedback for hp and ac of casters, of course ,I never get an answer.</DIV> <DIV>When i'm in group with sorcerer type or summoner type my mezzes are useless, except for adds of different encounters, becouse they kills mobs very fast with aoe.But anyway i have just ONE usable mezz with long recast time that make me hard to manage more then 3 mobs mezzed.</DIV> <DIV>Do we wanna talk about stuns?</DIV> <DIV>In which case should i use this stun?</DIV> <DIV>Not for sure in a situation where someone of my group is dying becouse while i cast the spell the guy is already death.</DIV> <DIV>Now...it seems our manaregen is been/will be nerfed.</DIV> <DIV>Time to roll a new char?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank u SOE~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(sorry for my bad english)</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Siddie <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> many of us dont have english as first language either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I am russian btw) - none the less I want to say that as coercer assuming you have your spells at Adept 1 and better and your wisdom exceed 61 you should not have any problems with soloing yellow solo conned mob...</DIV> <DIV>Here is a way how you do it</DIV> <DIV>Pull with Ravage Psyche - Entrall - HO trigger with Ego Blast - finish off with either Tyrranical Mind (Arcane Fury) or Ravage Psyche (Arcane Storm) - Entrall - HO Trigger with Ego Blast .... risen and repeat till mob dead. If mez resisted - use Eerie Focus and run 1 HO after focus and you still should have some time remain to cast Ravage Psyche. Its imperitive to keep mob under Ravage and do not use any DOTs or Power Drains over time (save Eerie focus)</DIV> <DIV>About AC and damage avoidance - again rethink your gear at my lvl 50 with AC5071 I feel rather safe tanking on my own "warrior" type of mob that cons solo or 1 arrow up. Scout type mobs - yes those might hurt a lot but have less HP. Priest type of mobs easiest since they losy nukers and dont have massive melee. Mage type of mob depend on your resistances if they are over 1800-2000 you should be just fine</DIV> <DIV>If you duo with guardian with his buffs you should have no problem in tanking green 2 arrow ups </DIV>

[Ol'b]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Mayo you have no clue about coercers.  We can't stifle x4 mobs.  The spell lands, but it doesn't stifle them.  It just drains mana. <HR> </P> <P>Shut the hell up about [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] stifle , this spell will NOT work on the mobs you need it to , sure you may be able to stifle Tundra Jack but really who cares if he's stifled....  Vox is the one you would NNED to stifle and cannot.. come to think of it name one group x4 mob that can be stifled , CAUSE I HAVENT SEEN ONE YET!!!! Not some vendor loot dropping crap mob .. Illusionest are goona get more more upgrades as they continue to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] some more... </P>

[Ol'b]

<DIV>Tanatus i hate to say it but it's people like you whom have been blabbin for days (until now) about how great coercers are...... People get jealous, get upgrades , and we STILL SUCK!</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>We been great in DPS department in our 30s untill warlocks and wizards got upgrade....</DIV> <DIV>So to speak I am mostly playing my warlock twink atm ... With coercer I do a little raiding (mana battery), harvesting (after all we playing game EverCraft II not EverQuest II) finishing Lore and Legend Books (9 done), finishing some book quest ... but there is nothing much you can do with coercer lvl 50</DIV>

[Shagittari]

<DIV>So whats the total power regen Coercers Vs. Illusionists can do now, at Adept 1 just for a baseline comparison?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shagittari]

<DIV>I have a couple questions I need to know after the latest changes...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is SoE trying to slowly dwindle the Enchanter population until none are left so they can kill off a class they have no idea what to do with?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and second...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did the original dev team get fired when this game went live beacuse the changes they make now seem to totally be in opposite of the original intent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm about 50 percent from 50 now.  I had a hard time getting to 50 beacuse the guild use to regularly call for me for help on raids with power regen.  Now my only viable grouping option is weakened.  I'm not gonna play and alt, if SoE is gonna kill the enchanter class then I'm done.</DIV>

[Oghi]

<DIV>SOE isn't trying to "kill off" any class.  That's a bit silly -- they want us all to stay and keep paying.  The current problems are far more likely due to an old-standing SOE practice:  Hurry to nerf perceived imbalances, but go very slow in improving any class.  They decided that some of the regens and drains were too powerful, so they got nerfed.  This hurt both subclasses, though Coercers bore the brunt of it.  I believe SOE is also aware that enchanters are, like summoners, underpowered as members of the mage archetype.  They've stated that our DPS is under review, and I believe we can expect good changes here.  Eventually.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're going to be moved closer to sorcerers.  Moorgard has stated that, when SOE addresses balance issues, they look first to the archetype level.  I suspect it's significantly easier to balance high-end encounters when the range of player abilities is narrower.  The more alike we all are, the easier it is to predict what a group of 6, 12 or 24 can do.  Expect our drains and mezzes to hold steady, at best, while our DPS will improve.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Oghier all right tell me reason why illusionist as class unplayable now.... </DIV> <DIV>Coercer class broken beiond reparation because it not fun to play</DIV> <DIV>In places where CC requied (and I am talking about raiding) Coercer simply dont have enouth tools and power to perform his duty. You can safely replace 2 lvl 50 coercers with 1 lvl 43 illusionist and still have better CC. Heck you can replace coercer with troubadur and get better utility, better CC and! better DPS. Lol even Swash can do CC better due to fact that they can mez on run.</DIV> <DIV>DPS while Illusionist need "slight" tuning up in this department - coercers DPS broken beiond reparation - even cleric can outdps coercer, toss here fact that 2 coercer dont stack on raid....</DIV> <DIV>Untility please please please give me ONE exmaple of coercers utility spells that give coercer edge over illusionist or even bard</DIV> <DIV>I really love to see 2 option</DIV> <DIV>a) Change class into Illusionist w/o losing lvl</DIV> <DIV>b) Total rewamp coercer as class up to removing this class from the game completely</DIV>

[Oghi]

<DIV>Did I state that illusionists are unplayable?  Neither are coercers:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For CC, if you can't make do with one mezz in almost all situations, you're lousy at playing an enchanter.  All enchanters have significant parts of their career with one mezz, and most of us manage just fine in those sections.  The second mezz does help on rare occasions, and this is an imbalance that SOE should correct.  But it's ludicrous to call this a game-breaker.  Finally, mezzing on the run is far less important than you seem to think.  I'd estimate I am moving while casting a mezz perhaps 1 in 500 casts.  It's that rare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS, coercers still have better nukes and single-target DPS.  Illusionists do better vs groups.  Both classes need significant help here.  Illusionist pets have been fixed recently, and they are definitely useful (though they still have a three-minute recast).  If Beguile has now been broken, that needs to be fixed.  Coercers should have a much better charm than troubadors, without doubt.  Similarly, we all have stacking problems.  Many classes do, as so many DoT's contain non-stackable debuff components.   This needs a very broad fix.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For regens and drains, both subclasses are about equal now.  Neither will do markedly better than the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quit bloody panicking.  You seem to think that by posting apocolyptic nonsense (coercers are unplayable, illusionists are gods, we have to reroll now!!!!) that you'll get SOE's attention.  What you haven't understood is that conveying anger and frustration don't do you much good alone.  Spamming nonsense does little but destroy your credibility with anyone with actual knowledge of the mechanics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The overall differences between the enchanter subclasses are relatively slight.  In most categories, illusionists now have an advantage.  You can expect that to continue changing with every live patch, as they continue to play with balance issue.  The pendulum is going to swing back and forth.  Quit screaming bloody murder every time something bad happens, and try to post calm (and accurate) data as to what the problem is.  Avoid nesting that date in inaccurate, wildly exagerrated claims about subclasses you don't play and don't know.  You're currently a very prolific but very poor spokesman for the coercer subclass.  Consider becoming useful, instead of simply shrill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Oghier you still havent named single reason why coercer is playable class - please do so</DIV> <DIV>Excuse my english but I meant that Illusionist fully playable class in its current stage while coercer is not.</DIV> <DIV>Tell me single area where coercer even with illusionist god forbid better...</DIV> <DIV>Please dont tell me about 1 mez you simply dont know what are you talking about.... For most part of post 40 game mez is luxury (except raiding) but then it NEEDED single coercer with 1 mez that not stack with coercer stun cannt do much</DIV> <DIV>Please dont tell me that anyone in Dev team actually have coercer lvl 50 and have any clue what going on with spells or we would not have for 6 month 2 spells that different icons that share same timer and do absolutely same thing aka AE stun. If anyone in Dev team actually ever tested Beguile it would not broken for 5 months. If.... list can continue very long</DIV> <DIV>Coercer dont have advantage even vs. single target - this is total misleading. Best I can do is chain cast my haviest nuke and hit monsters with my light nuke in between </DIV>

[Sy]

Its much less then that now.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> sigh

[Sy]

Well said!Syan 40 Coercer 48 Alch <--- i got screwed twice!

[Sy]

Look I dont care if illu can do it,,,, i want my coercer better.. i dont wanna nerf others..