Breeze is fundamentally broken

[Taelnaya]

Here is a synopsis of a conversation I had last night. I was lfg mining in Nektulos.Person: Hey want a group?Me: What you guys fighting?Person: 43/44 stuff in RVMe: I am pretty useless there, can't mezz.Person: That's ok you just have to cast breeze.Me: You don't understand, its not fun being a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] button pushing monkey.Person: Come on its free exp.Now heres my problem, well there are actually two of them.One: Enchanters are the only class in game besides a priest (all priests mind you not just one subclass) that can get invited to a group and be expected to contribute nothing but casting one spell. I can guarantee a summoner, necro, wizard, etc would not get an invite and people would be fine with the power pool buff, or the mana stones. I have said it time and again, whenever a spell is powerful enough to define a class, and that person is considered a passable player solely based upon their ability to perform repetative (yes I know EQ2 is repetative, but this is repitition at its basest level) then that spell is broken.Two: If you know that most people are fighting stuff that is often 5-6 levels higher than they are (yes I know its not optimum but sometimes thats the type of group you get) why in the world do you have a spell that quits working on mobs only 3 levels above when you get your replacement mezz. Case in point: Level 37 enchanter cannot mezz 42+ mobs with Adept 1. I honestly don't know if I could mezz 40 without Adept 1.So if Sony wants to fix enchanters here are some solutions.Fix the time at which spells become ineffective. Almost every caster is universally ineffective against mobs 6+ levels higher than them, but if I can mezz a mob when its orange one or two levels ago, I should still be able to mezz an orange mob a couple levels later. That or give me more frequent mezz updates. We are the only mage class who can be rendered completely ineffectual based upon the fact that its not resists, its arbitrary level code that tells us our spell won't work. Damage will always work, but oh sorry can't use your primary function.Breeze/Refresh is entirely too powerful. Classes shouldn't get invited if others in their same archetype aren't as useful as they are in a group. Bump up power regen on the other classes, nerf it from enchanters, I don't care but I am tired of people thinking that breeze/refresh is all that enchanters are good for. It's sad how many people are suprised we have stuns, stifles, cure arcane, root, ae mezz, etc when I get in a group. This goes back to people considering enchanters well played if they are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] button pushing monkeys.Oh did I mention being the only enchanter in a Cauldron's Hollow raid I managed to have breeze up on ~ 15 people at one time? Yeah hows that for stacking later on in end game.Allow mezzes to stack. If I am in a raid with another enchanter and we are of same level, you get the conflicting mezz problem. We are yet again the only class that stacks like dookie. Two wizards, twice the damage, two priests, twice the healing, two enchanters, 0% chance that both casting mezz will get the mob under control. I am fine with how it is, just come out and say "We like it being stupid and moronic like this" and I will be happy, I have worked around other issues like this before. But you have to realize that with the way raid encounters are designed there is already little use for enchanters against ^^^x4 mobs anyways. Any chance an enchanter is going to get to actually do what they are known for (no its not breeze you goobers) is probably going to result in two people mezzing the same mob. And any game where you relegate one person to being a pure buffer isn't going to keep that player around for very long.AE Mezz is just stupid. I love the spell. It has great potential but the implementation is just horrid. A spell that lasts only 50 some odd seconds, yet drains mana while its running? If our own stupefication is what is keeping the mobs under control, why does it break at some arbitrary time interval? Is that the absolute maximum length of time that an enchanter can hold concentration over his enemies? Why pick 50 seconds I guess is my question. If I am going to be put into a daze that is keeping my enemies asleep, drop the 50 seconds and make it go until I decide to drop it. Up the mana required per tick and all will be right with the world.

[Ixiter]

"We are yet again the only class that stacks like dookie."Nope, Conjurors/Necros take the cake there. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Woot I can still use dust blast (a 30-70 damage dd)!But yeah, chanters got shafted this game.

[Taelnaya]

Oh lol I wasn't in the least saying that we aren't playable or desirable. We are probably the highest desired mage based class. What I was trying to point out is that all we are doing is hurting other mages, and at the same time when the things that hurt other mages get fixed, we will be super broke.*edit* added mage based, didn't want to seem too cocky!<p>Message Edited by Taelnayael on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span>

[Dranlin19]

Actually, as much as people whine about it, I prefer breeze/refresh the way it is. Like you said, if people only add us for that, then they have no real clue what a chanter is capable of. But, at least we have that option. You can't say that going into playing this class that you didn't know this was going to happen. Granted, you didn't know that mezz was going to be so situational, but mana regen was and is (and probably always will be) one of our main roles in groups. Simple as that.In EQ1 it got to the point where if people wanted mana regen they just stopped by PoK once every 3 hours and got their fix. At least in EQ2 you actually have to have the chanter in your group to get that. We are actually gaining group playability from our abilities, not 300p every 3 hours like in EQ1. Personally, ill take breezing/refreshing a higher lvl group over soloing anyday. Much less effort for way better xp gain. The only time I mezz in a normal group is when we get ^^ adds anyway. Or the healers are low on mana and we need to be a tad more efficent. Otherwise, im doing everything else that we do. In addition to casting Breeze/Refresh. You can still do that in a higher lvl group, you are just going to get alot more resists. So I think that your problem is that you may not be having the impact that you want on the group (albiet you are having a pretty big impact due to mana regen) if the mobs you are fighting are going to resist you more.Seems to me, that people are going to whine about anything regardless of the situation. If we got more mezzes you might be happy, but there would be people who would complain that all of our "new" spells are taken up by mezz upgrades instead of new neat spells, or more dots and nukes or whatever. When you have a 400,000+ person player base, you are NOT going to be able to please eveyrone. They just have to do whats best for the game and its mechanics overall, and hope they are keeping the majority happy. And for the most part, I think they are doing a pretty good job.

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taelnayael wrote:<BR>Here is a synopsis of a conversation I had last night. I was lfg mining in Nektulos.<BR><BR>Person: Hey want a group?<BR>Me: What you guys fighting?<BR>Person: 43/44 stuff in RV<BR>Me: I am pretty useless there, can't mezz.<BR>Person: That's ok you just have to cast breeze.<BR>Me: You don't understand, its not fun being a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] button pushing monkey.<BR>Person: Come on its free exp.<BR><BR>Now heres my problem, well there are actually two of them.<BR><BR>One: Enchanters are the only class in game besides a priest (all priests mind you not just one subclass) that can get invited to a group and be expected to contribute nothing but casting one spell. I can guarantee a summoner, necro, wizard, etc would not get an invite and people would be fine with the power pool buff, or the mana stones. I have said it time and again, whenever a spell is powerful enough to define a class, and that person is considered a passable player solely based upon their ability to perform repetative (yes I know EQ2 is repetative, but this is repitition at its basest level) then that spell is broken.<BR><BR>Two: If you know that most people are fighting stuff that is often 5-6 levels higher than they are (yes I know its not optimum but sometimes thats the type of group you get) why in the world do you have a spell that quits working on mobs only 3 levels above when you get your replacement mezz. Case in point: Level 37 enchanter cannot mezz 42+ mobs with Adept 1. I honestly don't know if I could mezz 40 without Adept 1.<BR><BR>So if Sony wants to fix enchanters here are some solutions.<BR><BR>Fix the time at which spells become ineffective. Almost every caster is universally ineffective against mobs 6+ levels higher than them, but if I can mezz a mob when its orange one or two levels ago, I should still be able to mezz an orange mob a couple levels later. That or give me more frequent mezz updates. We are the only mage class who can be rendered completely ineffectual based upon the fact that its not resists, its arbitrary level code that tells us our spell won't work. Damage will always work, but oh sorry can't use your primary function.<BR><BR>Breeze/Refresh is entirely too powerful. Classes shouldn't get invited if others in their same archetype aren't as useful as they are in a group. Bump up power regen on the other classes, nerf it from enchanters, I don't care but I am tired of people thinking that breeze/refresh is all that enchanters are good for. It's sad how many people are suprised we have stuns, stifles, cure arcane, root, ae mezz, etc when I get in a group. This goes back to people considering enchanters well played if they are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] button pushing monkeys.<BR><BR>Oh did I mention being the only enchanter in a Cauldron's Hollow raid I managed to have breeze up on ~ 15 people at one time? Yeah hows that for stacking later on in end game.<BR><BR>Allow mezzes to stack. If I am in a raid with another enchanter and we are of same level, you get the conflicting mezz problem. We are yet again the only class that stacks like dookie. Two wizards, twice the damage, two priests, twice the healing, two enchanters, 0% chance that both casting mezz will get the mob under control. I am fine with how it is, just come out and say "We like it being stupid and moronic like this" and I will be happy, I have worked around other issues like this before. But you have to realize that with the way raid encounters are designed there is already little use for enchanters against ^^^x4 mobs anyways. Any chance an enchanter is going to get to actually do what they are known for (no its not breeze you goobers) is probably going to result in two people mezzing the same mob. And any game where you relegate one person to being a pure buffer isn't going to keep that player around for very long.<BR><BR>AE Mezz is just stupid. I love the spell. It has great potential but the implementation is just horrid. A spell that lasts only 50 some odd seconds, yet drains mana while its running? If our own stupefication is what is keeping the mobs under control, why does it break at some arbitrary time interval? Is that the absolute maximum length of time that an enchanter can hold concentration over his enemies? Why pick 50 seconds I guess is my question. If I am going to be put into a daze that is keeping my enemies asleep, drop the 50 seconds and make it go until I decide to drop it. Up the mana required per tick and all will be right with the world.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure why you posted this.  You want to complain because your getting invites to higher level groups that you otherwise wouldnt have access to?   You would rather not get invited to high level groups and have our general utility nerfed accross the board because we have one skill that is highly valuable to people that are slightly higher level then you?<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level caps on mez..... well I can undstand why you dont like it but how else do you make a mez spell more powerfull?  A nuke or a DoT is easy to improve upon as you get upgrades when you level, they simple do more damage, usually with a better damage to power ratio (not always the case).  Mez spells on the other hand dont change drastically as you level.  Would you rather have your level 10 mez be effective all the way to 50 without ever need to upgrade the spell line?    The reason for upgradeing mez spells (which cost more power the higher level they are) is because of the level cap on the spells.  EQlive was exactly the same way, and while that doesnt mean thats the best way to do things, its a proven and repeated way for them to deal with Mez spells.  The only other way they could upgrade this spell line as you advance would be to give it longer durations and thats something I doubt they want to do very much </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Taelnaya]

Wow so much hate.What I am wondering is if it is hate because I am explicitly listing what is soooo messed up with the enchanter class that anything else is secondary, or the fact that people actually think I am whining?Do I acknowledge that coercers are the single most sought after mage class? YesDo I think there is something seriously screwed up with their desirability? YesI am not sure where you are coming from Azamien-Dermorate. First and foremost people who have a clue realize that any group which is fighting stuff that is red to any of its members is pursuing ineffectual experience. There is no secret that the sweet spot revolves in the 3 level range. For the slow folks out there that is 37-39, 38-40, 39-41. Etcetera. To address some of your baser points, I am not disappointed that I am getting asked to groups fighting stuff out of my league. What I am disappointed in is the fact that if people fighting stuff 4-5 levels above them was standard then why didnt the developers take that into account when they were working out resists and mage viability.You do realize my argument, much less statement, was an attempt to try and help balance mages in general? I am not trying to make it so that I have less viability, I just am trying to make it so I am not the only viable mage class. There are problems and you are knee deep in oblivious heaven to realize that what is currently in place will only hurt the game as a whole.Oh wait apparently you are a mage who is entirely happy with being defined by the ability to breeze. You do realize that by being the kings of breeze and power regen we have single handedly shut out any other mage based class from fulfilling our role? Oh wait you were too busy comparing the size of your member to other people who actually matter in a group 6 levels higher than you.I am tired of people thinking that I have no clue what I can bring to the game. Jerkoffs like you do nothing but make it even worse. There is something fundamentally wrong with enchanters. The only people who dont recognize it are the enchanters who have made their living by sucking at anything but casting breeze.*edit*Said the opposite of what i wanted to in one of my questions<p>Message Edited by Taelnayael on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 PM</span>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taelnayael wrote:<BR>Wow so much hate.<BR><BR>What I am wondering is if it is hate because I am explicitly listing what is soooo messed up with the enchanter class that anything else is secondary, or the fact that people actually think I am whining?<BR><BR>Do I acknowledge that coercers are the single most sought after mage class? Yes<BR><BR>Do I think there is something seriously screwed up with their desirability? Yes<BR><BR>I am not sure where you are coming from Azamien-Dermorate. First and foremost people who have a clue realize that any group which is fighting stuff that is red to any of its members is pursuing ineffectual experience. There is no secret that the sweet spot revolves in the 3 level range. For the slow folks out there that is 37-39, 38-40, 39-41. Etcetera. To address some of your baser points, I am not disappointed that I am getting asked to groups fighting stuff out of my league. What I am disappointed in is the fact that if people fighting stuff 4-5 levels above them was standard then why didnt the developers take that into account when they were working out resists and mage viability.<BR><BR>You do realize my argument, much less statement, was an attempt to try and help balance mages in general? I am not trying to make it so that I have less viability, I just am trying to make it so I am not the only viable mage class. There are problems and you are knee deep in oblivious heaven to realize that what is currently in place will only hurt the game as a whole.<BR><BR>Oh wait apparently you are a mage who is entirely happy with being defined by the ability to breeze. You do realize that by being the kings of breeze and power regen we have single handedly shut out any other mage based class from fulfilling our role? Oh wait you were too busy comparing the size of your member to other people who actually matter in a group 6 levels higher than you.<BR><BR>I am tired of people thinking that I have no clue what I can bring to the game. Jerkoffs like you do nothing but make it even worse. There is something fundamentally wrong with enchanters. The only people who dont recognize it are the enchanters who have made their living by sucking at anything but casting breeze.<BR><BR>*edit*<BR><BR>Said the opposite of what i wanted to in one of my questions <P>Message Edited by Taelnayael on <SPAN class=date_text>01-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So I guess its ok to attack and flame me because I dont happen to agree with nerfing the one ablity we have that can be usefull in higher level groups then us?  Complain about the hate but your the only one calling people jerkoffs that compair member sizes.  You dont know anything about me or my play style</P> <P>But that being said I DO think it's alright for me to be able to group with guildies that are within my grouping range  in RV while I am level 32 and all the mobs are red there.  No I dont see that as a problem, and I was supprised to hear that someone else ... another chanter ... though it was a problem.  So be cause I am level 32 I cannot group with my guildmates that are levels 35 and 36? RV IS right at that three level sweet spot for them but I guess I shouldnt be able to go according to you.  </P> <P>And yes they know my guildmates know that I cannot do alot againts red mobs.  Sometimes they invite people along to fill out the last spot in a group or to get a chance to group with a new innitiate that they want to get to know better.  Does that make us bad players because we arent  targeting mobs strictly 3 levels above the lowest player in the group?</P> <P>Also my guild and my friends do appreciate me for alot more then just breeze,  They know that when they want to go to RE or Nek Castle that a chanter can be a force mulitplier and a threat reducer.   I very well know all the advanages that a chanter can bring to a group, but I will absolutly disagree that coercers are the single most sought after mage class.  </P> <P>I orginally posted on this thread because I though it was an interesting discussion but the OP has try to turn it into a flame fest for anyone that doesnt happen to agree with him/her.   </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Faarwolf]

<DIV>No fighting, please.</DIV>

[Os]

<DIV>How is breeze so fundamentally overpowering? All 3 mage classes get some form of group member mana replenishment. (or at least warlocks and necro's do). Bards give group mana replenishment. Tier 3 drink is readily available from NPC's or your local provisioner. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I'll freely admit, I have not hit the lvl 30+ game, but I've never had a group where mana regen was such and issue that I wished there was a Enchanter class in the group. TBH as far as desirability I'd take a different mage or scout class over a chanter any day, simply because most chanters insist on sitting there mezzing green group mobs that don't even hurt the tank rather than using their multitude of other useful spells. As both a monk/mystic/warlock, I seem to expend more power in a group with a chanter than without. (net difference of downtime being about zero because of that breeze, but the fights take longer) I chalk this up to chanters not fully appreciating their class yet and just act like a mez/breeze bot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems like to many folks both chanters and non-chanters try and push the enchanter class into an EQ1 role when yes they have mez and breeze but are SO not EQ1 clones. I think these folks that are asking you to go to a group much higher than you're designed to is simply treating you like an EQ1 chanter, when they don't realize if they just got a bard or another class their lvl they'd probably be more better off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think chanters need rebalancing from my <30 lvl experience, players do.... just like the stigma that monks can't tank, etc. At least in EQ2 bards are recognized as more than mana-batteries, which only took what 4 years to change in EQ1? People's perception can make or break a class desirability far more than the game mechanics sometimes. So nerfing game mechanics to change gamers' perspectives on a class is a *bad* idea. Given enough time, people will break out of EQ1 mentality and learn what all classes can and cannot do. Education is the way to go <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Oshy on <span class=date_text>01-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

[Bron]

I think the original poster is just at a bad time for coercers. My duo buddy is a coercer and I remember that around 36-39ish? we started doing the level 41-44 nightbloods and lamias in RV and until getting his mez upgrade he was unable to mez some YELLOW mobs. This seems to be one semi-isolated instance in the progression of the coercer but it should probably be looked into where the cap is bumped up a level or two on the spell so there's never a time where a coercer is fighting level appropriate creatures (Keep in mind, the devs actually suggest groups should be taking on yellow encounters) and cannot use their most essential spell.And yes, it's true that in most groups coercers are simply breeze monkeys, but they have some other very very useful spells as well. I'm an SK and am able to effectively duo difficult encounters with a coercer friend because he can stifle, stun, and increase my mana regen and attack speed. In these fights he's utilizing many of his spells and we are able to take on encounters that might otherwise need a healer because I have enough mana to ward myself and because the creature isn't hitting me for 1k+ damage with its special attacks and is sometimes stunned for long periods of time where it's not hitting me at all.And to the last poster, most other mage classes get OUT OF COMBAT mana regen, and drink is the same. The most efficient groups I've ever been in have consisted of 1 healer, 1 bard or enchanter and 4 classes that can do major melee damage (hint: at the moment that's tanks not scouts). If you remove the bard or enchanter from the equation the group becomes inherently unsafe with one healer because when you get adds even if the healer can keep the main tank alive during the initial onslaught he's out of power before everything is dead. Replace the bard/enchanter with a priest class and you're dropping the group's DPS. True shamans can buff strength, and furies have some decent offensive spells, but neither of them compare to the combined power of haste and mana regen. With haste every melee in the group is doing ALOT more damage, and with mana regen every single member is able to use their spells and specials more often.I've been in groups with just about every oddball combination of classes from 1-50, but hands down the ones that kill the fastest and are best able to stay alive when things get ugly are the ones that include some manner of IN COMBAT mana regeneration.

[Kaff]

<blockquote><hr>Taelnayael wrote:To address some of your baser points, I am not disappointed that I am getting asked to groups fighting stuff out of my league. What I am disappointed in is the fact that if people fighting stuff 4-5 levels above them was standard then why didnt the developers take that into account when they were working out resists and mage viability.<hr></blockquote>You're going on the assumption that the devs intend the standard group target to be stuff 5 levels higher. Perhaps the ability for some groups to contend at that level is the imbalance here, and not the mage resist restrictions? We know, for instance, that even if orange and yellow give more xp than white, it's not by much, and by the time you get to red you're definitely capped xp-wise. This seems to jive with supporting that lower level range that mage spells seem centered around.In short, perhaps mages are right where they should be, and it's the ability for some tank/healer combinations to stand up against reds that's where the problem lies.As a pure aside, I just wanted to submit that perhaps you're focusing too much on your role in mezzing, to the exclusion of exploring things you can contribute in a non-mezzing tactic'ed group. If they think they can get by without you mezzing, then surely even if you could mez, it wouldn't be necessary or welcome, right? So what other things could you offer that group (that doesn't need mezzing) even if your mezzes could land? Hastes, breeze, DOTs, debuffs? Perhaps some of those would even work at that level range.

[Taloz]

Well, i would have to agree that breeze/refresh/clarity is very very overpowered, but if taken away enchanters would be worthless imho. I'm a coercer and this is what i deem as my greatest streght to my charater. I have master 1 Clarity, you can look it up on eq2players. with this everyone in my group can spam all there abilitys non stop w/o loosing any power, many people were upset by the loss of Arcaine chalice, however i just laughed. Overpowered Yes ... but i believe that i'm probably the only coercer in the game with this abiltity givin its rarety this early in the game. basicly it comes down to how good you can mulittask as to how well you can play a "Enchanter". Between breezing ever 16 seconds, hasting every 3 min, slowing ever mob ever 24 seconds or so, power drains, stuns, and mezing all adds it can get quite hecktic. However sure beats the hell outta sitting behind a mob Smashing power moves while auto attack is on ....Mobios 48 CoercerMalice,Befallen server