Complaints about breezing the group...

[LudaChr]

I have been reading this boards since launch and more and more people complain about breezing the group. I too USED to find this a strenuous task. Allow me to introduce you to the method I use that made this a VERY easy task.TOOLS REQUIRED: 1) Small piece of paper or artifact about the size of a key on a keyboard.We will be calling the item you chose XYZ in this post. I personally use a small orange piece of posterboard as my XYZ item.OK, now that we have all the tools required =P lets begin. Ok you join a group, breeze yourself and place XYZ above your F1 key. Now cast your haste if needed and see what the game plan is. While you are in your group briefly glance at breeze to see if it is available to cast (after a while you pretty much know by second nature). If it is hit F2, begin casting breeze and move XYZ above your F2 key. Now your party might be running to a nearby camp spot. You arrive and press F3 cast breeze and move XYZ above your F3 key. Rinse and repeat as needed.At first I was moving XYZ directly on top of the keys but sometimes it got in the way and annoying moving from F4 to F5/F6.Doing this allows me to cast breeze by second nature and groups love you for it. The exp is faster and an all around worth the effort task. Before I began doing this I would often forget who I just breezed if we were in a big fight and I was mezzing/stunning etc. Now I can root/mez/stun/dot/breeze during the fight. I have 2 chanters in the guild who would ask how I was able to keep it up so easy and they now do this also. Now in mid fight I can glance at breeze, see it up and look to my F keys to see that F3 was the last group member so I press F4, cast breeze, move XYZ, press 2 (/assist TANK hotkey) and have a nuke/dot/mez ready in the queue while breeze casts (which is a short cast anyway, just shows how easy it is)Hope this helps you as much as it did me. The benefits of the full group breezed are worth it IMHO. Good luck fellow Coercers!!

[Shagittari]

<DIV>Or like me, you can just remember who you left off on...</DIV>

[Impetus]

<strong><font color=yellow>Padien</font></strong> posted a suggestion that was something like this:Make a custom chat channel for yourself, and a separate chat window that only has that channel in it.Make a macro key ": ; useability Breeze ; /1 %T"That will Breeze the person who is currently targetted, then send a message to the chat channel of the person's name. And if you're in several chat channels and your custom channel is something other than 1 you just switch that to 5, 8, whatever.I think that Padien also had the chat window next to their group members box.<p>Message Edited by Impetus on <span class=date_text>01-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 PM</span>

[kil5t3]

<DIV>I have no trouble maintaining a breeze chain, but Impetus' suggestion is a smart one.</DIV>

[Akam]

<DIV>I use haste as an indicator.  I start at the bottom ususally and go up the group list (I have my group window set up vertically ala EQ1), then cast it on me.  Then I cast haste.  In my maintained spell window, I now have 6 breeze icons, with a haste at the bottom.  As I start to recast, the ones I recast move below haste.  So if I happen to forget, I just check and see how many breeze icons are below haste and then count that many up from the group list and I'm gtg again.</DIV>

[Rea]

<DIV>I also use the method mentioned above.  Its very simple to use the haste spell icon to show the divide in your refresh/breeze cycles.  I put it horizontal across the top.  The only downfall to this is that the other spells suck up space with their icons, and it only displays so many spells and then they stack out of view no matter what size I make the window.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway I like the idea of a custom chat channel for this... even better I may looking to doing a custom UI group window that somehow will denote the last person to get breeze.  Be really awesome if it was possible to put the refresh icon next to the group member.  Anyway I will be playing with the UI tonight and fully intend to see what I can do to make my life easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some nice combat macros (double spell nukes) will also come in handy to help ease up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you interested in helping on the UI let me know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Alternative way ....</DIV> <DIV>Teach your priest work in team with ya....</DIV> <DIV>/gsay HO inc in 5s priests be ready cast Hammer</DIV> <DIV>/cast Arcane Augur</DIV> <DIV>Spam AC once group start getting low on power </DIV>

[LudaChr]

<blockquote><hr>Shagittarius wrote:<DIV>Or like me, you can just remember who you left off on...</DIV><hr></blockquote>I posted this because of the numerous complaints that people are having about breezing. I know I have seen at least 15 posts where people complain about breezing or say that they shouldnt breeze the whole group. I strongly disagree and was trying to offer a solution to any problems they might have with breeze.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>LudaChris - its really nice to have tactic that allow you keep whole group on crack but in reallity its not needed</DIV> <DIV>Only few classes is really power hogs - namely SK and Monks. If fights goes intense scouts might start burn out, among priests only clerics (rare) burning visible amount of power (over 20%) for healing (if they burn more then that - they are in offense mode and I did not signed for reduction my dps to support 15-20DPS of inquisitor). My point is - that so to speak you might want to keep crack running only on MT and if fights truely instesive on Scout. If priests start complain about power flow watch closely what they casting .... you be suprise by what you seen. If you will point out that heal dont take much power (true, much like mezing virtually mana free) they will respond that they want have some fun (thier right) THEN you can explain em that casting Crack on whole group arent fun for ya and if they want go full offense they gota collaborate with ya on Arcane Challice</DIV>

[LudaChr]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<DIV>LudaChris - its really nice to have tactic that allow you keep whole group on crack but in reallity its not needed</DIV><DIV>Only few classes is really power hogs - namely SK and Monks. If fights goes intense scouts might start burn out, among priests only clerics (rare) burning visible amount of power (over 20%) for healing (if they burn more then that - they are in offense mode and I did not signed for reduction my dps to support 15-20DPS of inquisitor). My point is - that so to speak you might want to keep crack running only on MT and if fights truely instesive on Scout. If priests start complain about power flow watch closely what they casting .... you be suprise by what you seen. If you will point out that heal dont take much power (true, much like mezing virtually mana free) they will respond that they want have some fun (thier right) THEN you can explain em that casting Crack on whole group arent fun for ya and if they want go full offense they gota collaborate with ya on Arcane Challice</DIV><hr></blockquote>I give up on pickup groups and arcane challice. I find my new 'group training' tactic is to tell the group to use their specials more and use that darn power. After doing so the exp tends to increase by a large margin. Now guild groups on comms is another story =P

[NecroR]

<DIV>Im personally goin to use LudaChris' idea, i have a HORRIBLE short term memory. this could help me out quite a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i cant remember worth crap hehe.</DIV>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Impetus wrote:<BR>Another suggestion I've read (wish I could remember where as I would like to give them credit):<BR><BR>Make a custom chat channel for yourself, and a separate chat window that only has that channel in it.<BR><BR>Make a macro key ": ; useability Breeze ; /1 %T"<BR><BR>That will Breeze the person who is currently targetted, then send a message to the chat channel of the person's name. And if the chat channel is something other than 1 you just switch that 1.<BR><BR>I think the person who came up with this also had the chat window next to their group members box.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Ya, that was me.  I made a little chat box with only my custom made channel displaying in it.

[Namirsolo]

Personally, I just tell the priest to remind me if I forget to cast breeze on him or her more than thirty seconds after it runs out. Usually I'll buff the main damage dealer with breeze, then the tank, and then the healer last and try to keep that order going whenever I recast it.

[Impetus]

<blockquote><hr>Padien wrote:<BR><BR>Ya, that was me. I made a little chat box with only my custom made channel displaying in it.<hr></blockquote>Excellent. Edited my post.

[Zmokyn]

<DIV>I use the method mentioned by Akamai of having the haste buff mark the end of the breeze cycle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its true that most of the time, there are only a couple of people in the group that need breeze. However, the time that everyone needs it, is the time when you get a large set of adds (big group, several groups) and the team needs to fight continuously without a chance to regen power during the next mob pull.  But that is the one time where you dont have the chance to work out who you have not breezed recently and crack them. You are too busy with chain mez, stun, stifle etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in any dangerous area, I tend to keep up the full breeze cycle, knowing that on a long fight, I can live without doing any breezing until after I have the adds locked down.</DIV>

[Bloodtoo]

I really dont like the idea of being a Breeze slave where there is so much else I have to do in the group. Unless there are 2 chanter types, I ususally tell the group that I will keep breeze in the healers and the MT. After that will only breeze others when available and or really needed. Id hate to miss a mez or a stun because group members have no idea how to manage there power. I have yet to have a problem with this arrangement.

[Orki who Pos]

<DIV>>I really dont like the idea of being a Breeze slave where there is so much else I have to do in the group.</DIV> <DIV>>Unless there are 2 chanter types, I ususally tell the group that I will keep breeze in the healers and the MT.</DIV> <DIV>>After that will only breeze others when available and or really needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When i play my bard, and run into a chanter with that oppinion, and it actually happens... I will tell them my opinion of<FONT color=#ff9900> lazy players</FONT>.. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>If the wizard in my group tells us he's only gonna nuke twice every fight cuz he's lazy.. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Then he can join up with the enchanter we just kicked. :o)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>They'll make a great team, maybe they can join up with the tank that doesn't bother to taunt...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Or the healer that doesn't heal every fight.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they only keep it up on 3-5 people (average 4+) i live with it, if they cannot be bothered to do 3 people, they should (and will) find something else to do, and shouldn't look around for a reinvite.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too fuggin bad, i live with it with my chanter.. and unless there's adds, it <STRONG>IS</STRONG>, by <STRONG>FAR</STRONG> the most efficient thing you can do in your group.</DIV> <DIV>Your damage is lousy, and mez is only needed every so often...  we could just evac instead if it looks bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, evaccing takes a lil bit to get back from, but usually we can fight back, making some xp on the way.. so it's not that big a deal..</DIV> <DIV>So.. besides giving us infinite mana (33+) what exactly do you bring that a second tank or any dps class does not do better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Silence is nice.. and it helps, but.. if there is a bard, or the tank has great gear, or there is two healers.. forget it. It's just not enough.</DIV> <DIV>Besides, you can twist silence and breeze easily enough... just dont be lazy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Namirsolo]

To the last poster, have you played an enchanter to a level where they are actually a coercer? Breeze only lasts for three minutes, so it is next to impossible to cast it on the whole group with it's recast timer being nearly 15 seconds. If you expect a coercer to breeze the whole group they won't be doing anything BUT breezing the group.Only the mt, healer and main damage person really NEED breeze at all. No one else should even be coming close to losing all their mana. Second of all, our damage is actually pretty good. With all my spells adepted, using my debuffs properly, and utilizing my DOTs, I actually have decent dps. I have yet to be able to figure out how to use the dps parcer, but I can see many orange numbers leaking off a mob, most of them larger than the ones coming from other people in my group. Second, you should learn to respect a coercer's mez. One day it will save your life.

[Orki who Pos]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>>To the last poster, have you played an enchanter to a level where they are actually a coercer? </FONT></DIV> <DIV>Just for the record.. my coercer is now lvl 39.. my lvl 38.6 mez is an adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You learn that mez isnt required at lvl 37&38, when you have no mez at all that works on lvl 42+ mobs, and you group keeps insisting on fighting either nightbloods in rivervale, or lizards in CT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>>Breeze only lasts for three minutes, so it is next to impossible to cast it on the whole group with it's recast timer being nearly 15 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>>If you expect a coercer to breeze the whole group they won't be doing anything BUT breezing the group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>You actually have the 15 seconds while you wait on it to recharge to cast something else.. but, as i stated, i only expect it on 3-5 targets, depending on what's going on... after lvl 33 where you have 2 breeze spells, i sure expect it to be on everyone 90% of the time, since you can mix em.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>>Only the mt, healer and main damage person really NEED breeze at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Nobody needs breeze, you can fight green mobs with a [Removed for Content] group all day, but.. if you want high efficiency, the tanks needs good armor and skills, the wizard needs to fire his nukes.. and.. the enchanter needs to pass out breeze.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>> No one else should even be coming close to losing all their mana.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Then they are frankly lazy, even with refresh, and manataps, a busy dps class can drop in mana faster than he'll recover between pulls.</DIV> <DIV>Before i started posting results from my dps parser, many were lazy.. but after i started posting it to the group.. people pick up the phase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>>Second of all, our damage is actually pretty good.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>At lvl 39, if you chain damage (big gloom, small gloom, big nuke, big dot, small nuke, ceberal spasm, small nuke, big nuke, refresh gloom 1&2, big nuke, small nuke, dead mob.. that combo is pretty optimal) you will not break 62 dps, the melees are breaking 100 for christs sake.. <FONT color=#ff6600><STRONG>your typical 55 is not impressive to anyone besides the bard and the non AE'ing healer.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>> With all my spells adepted, using my debuffs properly, and utilizing my DOTs, I actually have decent dps.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Get a new parser, or get some better dps classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>> I have yet to be able to figure out how to use the dps parcer, but I can see many orange numbers leaking off a mob, most of them larger than the ones coming from other people in my group. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>Yes, that's a common problem, you probably think wizards are outdamaging everyone too because they hit for 585 sometimes, but they are usually around the 80 dps mark, where necros are at 110-130, and melees at 80-110.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>>Second, you should learn to respect a coercer's mez. One day it will save your life.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>It has.. often, but frankly, you will see when you mez spell isnt working at 37-38 that you dont actually die more than usual.. a well timed evac is nearly as good, and doesn't get resisted.</DIV> <DIV>If i should choose between silence and mez, there is no chance that i would pick mez.. ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, i know how to mez.. i played an enchanter in eq1 too, a controller in city of heroes.. i even had a mezzing class in daoc and shadowbane..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>As harsh and tainted as <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=11855" target=_blank><SPAN>Orki who Posts</SPAN></A> sounds, he for the most part right.  That's why I have a Level 28 Zerker and only play my 45 illusionist when invited into fun groups where mez is pretty important (like Solusek, maybe some in Permafrost).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 thing I disagree with, we don't compete with good bards either on DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, tank DPS gets bigger and bigger as they near 50 to the point that guardians are doing as much DPS as assassins if not more on harder stuff.  Guardians for christs sake (breaking 200 dps often).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With bard buffs, a tank barely breaks a sweat tanking anything after 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:  I did want to say that mez does help at the right times, but it's not as important as many would like to think.   One of the main reasons I usually play a mezer is that their job is the most complex.  In this game, that's far from reality.  The main tanks job is probably the most complex class if he runs the show.  I've found that out with my alt.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>01-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[LudaChr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Namirsolo wrote:<BR>To the last poster, have you played an enchanter to a level where they are actually a coercer? <BR><BR>Breeze only lasts for three minutes, so it is next to impossible to cast it on the whole group with it's recast timer being nearly 15 seconds.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>DId you read my original post? It makes this a VERY VERY easy task..</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If you expect a coercer to breeze the whole group they won't be doing anything BUT breezing the group.Only the mt, healer and main damage person really NEED breeze at all.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>If after reading my original post and not trying it and you still feel this way, I am EXTREMELY better than you rather than just better than you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> No one else should even be coming close to losing all their mana.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Doh, sounds like you got some bad groups or just plain slow exp. Tell your group to use their power if you have to, sometimes they dont even realize they have breeze and power isnt a problem at all any more.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Second of all, our damage is actually pretty good. With all my spells adepted, using my debuffs properly, and utilizing my DOTs, I actually have decent dps.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Get a parser =( it only looks good. I can lay the dots/debuffs lay the nukes/mini nukes, redot, etc etc etc and still just get smacked around (dps wise) by a guardian =</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I have yet to be able to figure out how to use the dps parcer, but I can see many orange numbers leaking off a mob, most of them larger than the ones coming from other people in my group. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I think they might not be showing up correctly or perhaps you have some turned off? I used to think I did good dps until I saw the true stats...</FONT><BR><BR>Second, you should learn to respect a coercer's mez. One day it will save your life.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Unlike others, I use mez ALLL the time and groups love it, 4 mob encount? I can always have 2 mezed before the first is dead and often times 3 if it's a tough mob and the recast timer gets back up in time. The screenshot below was when I was lvl 19 I think and that was over 10 levels ago :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://ludachris.org/images/eq2props1.jpg" target=_blank>http://ludachris.org/images/eq2props1.jpg</A></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Namirsolo]

I downloaded the parser, but I don't know how to make it work with the game. I'm not very computer smart. I read your post but didn't understand it the first time, I'll read it more carefully this time. And on closer inspection, I can probably do the same by remembering who I cast it on. I was under the impression that everyone in the group did not need breeze. And, I agree with you about the mez... my guild leader is always praising me for keeping the group alive (we're both lvl 25) but it's over ventrilo so I can't screenshot it. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Namirsolo on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:18 AM</span>

[neble]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <DIV>>I really dont like the idea of being a Breeze slave where there is so much else I have to do in the group.</DIV> <DIV>>Unless there are 2 chanter types, I ususally tell the group that I will keep breeze in the healers and the MT.</DIV> <DIV>>After that will only breeze others when available and or really needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When i play my bard, and run into a chanter with that oppinion, and it actually happens... I will tell them my opinion of<FONT color=#ff9900> lazy players</FONT>.. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>If the wizard in my group tells us he's only gonna nuke twice every fight cuz he's lazy.. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Then he can join up with the enchanter we just kicked. :o)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>They'll make a great team, maybe they can join up with the tank that doesn't bother to taunt...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Or the healer that doesn't heal every fight.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they only keep it up on 3-5 people (average 4+) i live with it, if they cannot be bothered to do 3 people, they should (and will) find something else to do, and shouldn't look around for a reinvite.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>Like many others, you have this narrow minded point of view that Breeze should be a necessity that needs to always be kept up, I disagree.  I treat Breeze as a HOT, but it's for power instead.  Why should I be forced to keep Breeze up on a guy who's always full mana without it?  Of course the reverse is true too, if the group is eating power like candy then yes, I'll keep it on the entire group if that's what it takes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too fuggin bad, i live with it with my chanter.. and unless there's adds, it <STRONG>IS</STRONG>, by <STRONG>FAR</STRONG> the most efficient thing you can do in your group.</DIV> <DIV>Your damage is lousy, and mez is only needed every so often...  we could just evac instead if it looks bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>First of all, our damage is not lousey.  You want to see lousey damage and inefficiency?  Play in a 2 healer group where you only need 1 healer and watch the damage output of the second healer.  That's inefficient.  At lvl 43 my best nuked was capped at 325 dmg, and that's playing a Warden class that supposedly gets among the best nukes that are provided to the Priest subclasses.  Don't insult Enchanter damage, we aren't wizards but we are quite capable of dealing out all forms of damage as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, evaccing takes a lil bit to get back from, but usually we can fight back, making some xp on the way.. so it's not that big a deal..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>OMG, how narrow minded... again!  First of all, mes it not JUST about making a bad pull go right.  It's also about making a good pull go better.  If you're fighting a ^^ and a ^ group mob (take nightbloods in RV for instance), then me messing the ^^ while the group takes ^ can save the group some downtime from the damage we are now not taking.  At the very least save the healer some mana and possibly me from having chain breeze as you suggest as our one quality.  On a 2 or 3 mob encounter AOEs absolutly suck for mana efficiency.  Letting the chanter handle the extras so the group can focus on single target skills and spells helps bring the mobs down far more efficiently.  It's people like you who quickly write off mesing and nuking for a Enchanter that forces us to be nothing more than breeze [Removed for Content].... I say shame on you and get the he!! out of our subclass.  You're the only one that doesn't know how to play a chanter here.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Nerj]

<DIV>Our best bet is to keep the mana pools draining, keeping other group mems mezed, breez as needed, recklessness. Keeping mobs from being able to use their specials will also help your team members from draining their power pools. Being a one-trick pony in most groups is stupid and having them have you just to breeze them is just as bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In additon, your hate level will jump dramtically as each time your breeze tics in some more health to the whole group.</DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>Here is my view on breeze, and most 40+ groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every DPS, tanks included, can run their power out if they attempt to use it.  They do loads more damage using power than not.  That means that every breeze you put on a player allows that player to do more damage.  If they aren't using power, I notice a lot of people call them on it by either showing the groups DPS numbers, or just telling them they need to burn their power more.  The only reason any non healer would not need power is if they aren't using their damage abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healers are about the only class I don't bother to put breeze on in normal xp hunts.  40+, tanks just destroy content and hardly need heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Except for Adds, and perhaps the single up paired pulls, mez isn't needed.  Just AE, even if you don't, those wimpy grouped mobs don't hurt tanks 40+, even before they don't hurt much.  Everyone show be using their AE spells if the area they are fighting doesn't have non agro wandering mobs.  Melee included.  Even doing AE instead of mez, the healers barely work their power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difference a bards buffs make, at least in the 40+ range, make it so even the bard can tank with ease.  Heck, a bard can tank better than a tank without a bard in his group.  It's scary just how powerful bard buffs are atm.  Breeze is still better than Bria's, so we do have that nitch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, all that said, mez is useful when going to areas with lots of wandering agro.  When our guild xp's, they usually xp on terrors and areas that don't have too many adds.  When an enchanter joins, then they'll hit Permafrost, or Solusek if we have a lot of time.  Obviously mez helps, but it's not as powerful as we all would like to think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main thing people invite chanters for is breeze.  Not mez.  If you aren't supplying it, you won't get the invites.</DIV> <P>And a little news flash.  Wizard DPS is the butt of most jokes in 40+ groups.  Run a parser and you'll see that caster DPS is a joke compared to any compentent melee.</P><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 PM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Ppl LEARN TO USE A(rcane)C(allice) - there ZERO need in breezing ANYONE in group but MT - this words comes from mouth lvl 43 coercer (rank 3 on server). If your tank and scout dump and only thing that they can do is spam thier own solo HOs lets em stay w/o power it will chill em up.</DIV> <DIV>Zero reason in haste also - Every dog and its puppy have 2 things in past lvl 40 game FBSS and Ancient Ring of Slayer - that its - person at haste cap.</DIV> <DIV>What is usefull and practical? - well Stifle, Stun, Group Mana Tap (Mind Gorge is lvl 40 class trait that ever sane coercer should pick), HO Arcane Challice, Arcane Debuff/Slow mobs (yes our slow best) assist on Crippling Shroud HO too ...</DIV> <DIV>About DPS ... Orcy just dont know what he talking about  ALL casters just FINE untill they hit lvl 37-42 (last tier of offensive spells upgrade) DPS wise. Even then as long as you can maintain your spells at Adept 3-Master 1 you can match your melee couterpart (its sad that we need Adept 3+ to match melee DPS but .. oh well).</DIV> <DIV>Padien last time I been parsed I relaible sustein 104-106 DPS on lvl 48 Vir's (orange con) in Perma </DIV> <DIV>My spells set</DIV> <DIV>Anguish Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Melancholy Adept 3 (do more damage then Despair Adept 1 btw)</DIV> <DIV>Gloom Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Mind Gorge Adept 2 (class special trait)</DIV> <DIV>Muddle Thinking Master 1</DIV> <DIV>Despotic Mind - Adept 3 (do more damage then Tyrranical Mind Apprentice 2 unfortunally no sage lvl 42 on Nektulos yet so no Adept 3 .... yet)</DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>A group chain chalicing will still not keep up with the power usage of a group using all their abilities (assuming chain pulling/non stop fighting).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This comes out of the mouth of a 45 illusionist.  Really, if the MT is running out of power, obviously other classes can too, assassins can burn power faster than tanks, and so can a lot of classes.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:42 PM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Heh tell me about it ...</DIV> <DIV>My guild did with only 12 ppl killing X4 group +++ named orc in Zeks - well perma spam AC kept everyone at full power and everyone were doing full damage..... Yes I did feel like an idiot do almost nothing but AC spam + power taps but team work is team work I have to do what most benificial for raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.... </DIV> <DIV>Plus .... you dont have to be at same spot as raid to do HO</DIV> <DIV>Usual set of our raid is 3 groups 3 , 6 , 3. First group is priest mage and MT where priest and mage staying at IZ and pump mana to MT via HO AC  using some grey conned mobs lol hence staying away from AEs and since other healers not in same group as MT zero risk for em to heal MT <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Orki who Pos]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>I treat Breeze as a HOT, but it's for power instead.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>So do i, everyone uses power, if they dont, they'r slacking. Once i thought monks didnt use mutch power, since they kept having full power bars, but then i ran into one that did use his power.. he was doing roughly 33% more damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>While you might consider this insignificant, i would translate it into 25-33% more xp, or being able to do a tougher encounter.. either is fine by me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>Why should I be forced to keep Breeze up on a guy who's always full mana without it?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Definitely, if someone doesnt use his mana, i will let him know he's slacking..  and post my parsed DPS data if he still doesnt use power, he doesnt get breeze.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>Of course the reverse is true too, if the group is eating power like candy then yes, I'll keep it on the entire group if that's what it takes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>That's the groups i'm in.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too fuggin bad, i live with it with my chanter.. and unless there's adds, it <STRONG>IS</STRONG>, by <STRONG>FAR</STRONG> the most efficient thing you can do in your group.</DIV> <DIV>Your damage is lousy, and mez is only needed every so often...  we could just evac instead if it looks bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>First of all, our damage is not lousey.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If you dont have a parser, trust me on this.. it IS. You have long recast times on your nuke, and a reasonably long casting time (3 seks)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>A macroing scout can start a solo HO, fire off first attack (1 sec) and finish the ho (1.5 secs) during those 3 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>That was not counting their big 700+ dam hits either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>Play in a 2 healer group where you only need 1 healer and watch the damage output of the second healer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I have yet to try an encounter where we needed 2 healers post lvl 30, so unless they had 2 healers when i joined it's not happening.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>At lvl 43 my best nuked was capped at 325 dmg, and that's playing a Warden class that supposedly gets among the best nukes that are provided to the Priest subclasses.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>A defiler often does better dps than i do, according to my parser. Where did you find the information that wardens gets the best nukes among the priest classes?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Just counting how many nukes there is on a spell-list doesnt provide you with reliable data.. besides, dots generally do better damage than nukes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>> Don't insult Enchanter damage, we aren't wizards but we are quite capable of dealing out all forms of damage as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Wizards are beginning to be doing lousy damage too now at 39 compared to the melees.... and we aren't quite Wizards?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Congrats, we can now get third place in swimming for rookies.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>OMG, how narrow minded... again!  First of all, mes it not JUST about making a bad pull go right.  It's also about making a good pull go better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The only pulls where mez helps significantly is a named boss with a crowd of adds, then mez the boss. It makes a difference, but.. often a small one.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>If you're fighting a ^^ and a ^ group mob (take nightbloods in RV for instance), then me messing the ^^ while the group takes ^ can save the group some downtime from the damage we are now not taking.  At the very least save the healer some mana and possibly me from having chain breeze as you suggest as our one quality.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>First off, the healers cannot use their mana bar at lvl 35+ with breeze and mana drains going by healing a tank, not even close... they can if they nuke/dot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If we pull a ^ and an ^^ mob, i stun the ^^ mob, then silence the ^ mob.  That way, their damage output becomes pathetic, and noone can break it without casting plague of rats. Before stun drops, the ^ mob will be dead.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>That way is vastly superior to mezzing, since noone else has to pay any attention to it, and.. you can twist in 2 breezes afterward easily, and even your dots/nukes if you bother.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>On a 2 or 3 mob encounter AOEs absolutly suck for mana efficiency.  Letting the chanter handle the extras so the group can focus on single target skills and spells helps bring the mobs down far more efficiently.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>In a 3 mob encounter it's worth using AE damage, the efficiency is close, and they die faster.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>It's people like you who quickly write off mesing and nuking for a Enchanter that forces us to be nothing more than breeze [Removed for Content].... I say shame on you and get the he!! out of our subclass.  You're the only one that doesn't know how to play a chanter here.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>It's pretty mutch like driving a porche instead of a toyota carola, basically both gets you where you'r going, but people will come back for more when they've tried the porche..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The enchanter is currently a very powerfull class, the only efficient power bar healer and downtime nullifier.... so you dont have to be even 80% efficient to get invites to groups.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I fully realize that people like me ruins it for the ones that doesnt play to maximize efficiency, just like being with a tank that can keep aggro makes the tanks that cannot annoyed. Your groups will do very well too, since the high end game is currently rather easy, and anyone can do orange encounters, without an enchanter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If noone breezed the entire group, and thereby reduced/removed groups downtimes, slacking would be easier for the rest..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm a power-gamer at heart, i prefer the term casual powergamer, since i dont play as mutch as i used to.. but, i will play my character at an extreemely high efficiency, and i generally assume the people i play with does the same.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I will not play my character less efficiently just because i'm lazy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Post 33 you have no excuse for not breezing the entire group, since you can breeze 2 people at a time, before waiting on refreshes. That can easily be mixed in between other attacks/stuns/stifles.</FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>Let me ask you this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you run chalice...does everyone stop using their abilities for 5 seconds at a time?  Do you guys all play bruisers or something?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way we do chalice, no one stops, everyone continues to burn power the whole fight.  Spamming AC, along with breeze, they still burn their power down.</DIV>

[neble]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>>First of all, our damage is not lousey.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If you dont have a parser, trust me on this.. it IS. You have long recast times on your nuke, and a reasonably long casting time (3 seks)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>A macroing scout can start a solo HO, fire off first attack (1 sec) and finish the ho (1.5 secs) during those 3 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>That was not counting their big 700+ dam hits either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>What you said about DOTs is true.  I can say stacking DOTs with nukes, I'm currently outdamaging my entire group at lvl 17 according to my parser (Brawler, Rogue, Crusader, and 2 healers).  So either I'm playing my character extremely well being already familiar with basic combat mechanics, or they just plain suck.  The big problem with DOTs in the end game is unless they're tough ^^ mobs they tend to get burned down very quickly, rendering the efficiency of a DOT pretty useless.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On Priest nukes, I was doing 325 capped as a level 43 Warden with a Master 1 spell, other priest class were drooling I could DD for that much and I don't ever recall seeing any other priest showing that kind of damage output with the exception of my Fury counterpart.  Honestly, I don't see how that damage could be considered impressive by any mage class though, but when you're not healing it's something I can contribute.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have also watched the numbers in my  lvl 40s groups and our Wizard was outdamaging the crap out of our Swashbuckler coming in 1000-2000 points of total damage over him every fight.  Here again, maybe my Swashbuckler sucked or my wizard was using Master 1s.  Of course the reverse could be said about your observations, how well equipped are wizards you group with?  Are you using Master level nukes as a Enchanter?  DOTs?  Sure I can see where our DPS drops like a rock because we have to waste time keeping Breezes up, mesing, an debuffing the mobs, but I just find it hard to believe that means our DPS potential sucks... just distracted?</DIV></DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>It's true not all players are created equal, but some are more equal than others.  Examples at 50 from our guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have a level 50 guardian who does 200-240 DPS</DIV> <DIV>We have a level 48 ranger who when he tries does about 160 DPS  (since the guardian surpassed his DPS, he stopped trying)</DIV> <DIV>We have a level 50 warlock who maxes out at 125 DPS</DIV> <DIV>We have a level 50 wizard who also maxes out at about 125 DPS  (all adept 3's).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We go on raids and add up the damage and we see things like:</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser's doing 140 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Wizard doing 40 DPS (hard to sestane damage at that level)</DIV> <DIV>Coercers and illusionists doing 30 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Guardian doing 80-100 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Assassins doing 60 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On raids, it seems that the fighters do the most DPS consistantly.  In xp groups, assassins can at least compete with them, but with poisons not working on bosses, they lose a lot of DPS.</DIV>

[Nerj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ppl LEARN TO USE A(rcane)C(allice) - there ZERO need in breezing ANYONE in group but MT - this words comes from mouth lvl 43 coercer (rank 3 on server). If your tank and scout dump and only thing that they can do is spam thier own solo HOs lets em stay w/o power it will chill em up.</DIV> <DIV>Zero reason in haste also - Every dog and its puppy have 2 things in past lvl 40 game FBSS and Ancient Ring of Slayer - that its - person at haste cap.</DIV> <DIV>What is usefull and practical? - well Stifle, Stun, Group Mana Tap (Mind Gorge is lvl 40 class trait that ever sane coercer should pick), HO Arcane Challice, Arcane Debuff/Slow mobs (yes our slow best) assist on Crippling Shroud HO too ...</DIV> <DIV>About DPS ... Orcy just dont know what he talking about  ALL casters just FINE untill they hit lvl 37-42 (last tier of offensive spells upgrade) DPS wise. Even then as long as you can maintain your spells at Adept 3-Master 1 you can match your melee couterpart (its sad that we need Adept 3+ to match melee DPS but .. oh well).</DIV> <DIV>Padien last time I been parsed I relaible sustein 104-106 DPS on lvl 48 Vir's (orange con) in Perma </DIV> <DIV>My spells set</DIV> <DIV>Anguish Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Melancholy Adept 3 (do more damage then Despair Adept 1 btw)</DIV> <DIV>Gloom Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Mind Gorge Adept 2 (class special trait)</DIV> <DIV>Muddle Thinking Master 1</DIV> <DIV>Despotic Mind - Adept 3 (do more damage then Tyrranical Mind Apprentice 2 unfortunally no sage lvl 42 on Nektulos yet so no Adept 3 .... yet)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Understand that today's patch change how Arcane Chalice is used, last person in chain recieves it no longer group HO. We are now back into the group as breeze bots :smileysad:</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Nerjin sad thing is facts that Padien said is true in mid-upper 40 game</DIV> <DIV>By lvl 50 from lvl 40 guardinan DOUBLE dps</DIV> <DIV>Most melee are at least gain +50%-70% DPS to what they had at lvl 40 .... not casters</DIV> <DIV>I bust my [Removed for Content] off to pull very high DPS I am coercer after all I meant to have highest DPS in game (otherwise why whould I given charm?). But things start rolls bad .... really bad for us once you hit low 40 and then mid 40s. Yes Refresh/Glowing Breeze Bots we are and tiny bit contribution into monsters debuffing and oh ya 1 things more - in high end game we looks the only class that can protect tank from fear and charm via our group mental buffs, plus our Ward Line help a lot vs. Magic damage at least for regular ecounters I yet to see any more that able brake Adept 1 Exhoration...</DIV> <DIV>Well to be entierly honest CC STILL needed in some cases - needed is key world not "good to have" but needed. Very rare indeed, mostly then you fight ring event or boss-pack</DIV> <DIV>I am grouping with highest warlock on server - best he can pull off on regular bases is about 690 a pop for big nuke and about 255 for small nuke but I'd say his AE at least good - I seen 245 numbers floating on head of monsters he is lvl 49... I am lvl 44 coercer and max damage what I can achieve is 490 with DM (adept 3), 89/86/50/55 per tic for Anguish Adp3/Despair Adp1/Gloom Adept3/Mind Gorge Adept2 and nuking here and where with Muddled Thinking Master 1 for 232 top a pop (oh ya enemy trait nukes at lvl 44 do around 405-415 damage per pop on fully debuffed target)</DIV>

[Nerj]

<DIV>Hopefully, when they look at the Wizard class, they will find the similar across the board problems with all of the upper Mage classes and fix them.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>I dont give up for same reason - one day far far from today Dev team might changed and new Dev team will look close on charm and it might get one day fixed - that's the only reason why I keep playing coercer and not making Guardian</DIV>

[neble]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerjin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hopefully, when they look at the Wizard class, they will find the similar across the board problems with all of the upper Mage classes and fix them.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> My friend, this is SOE we're talking about here.  They won't fix the mages, they'll nerf the melees.  :smileyvery-happy:

[LudaChr]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<DIV>Ppl LEARN TO USE A(rcane)C(allice) - there ZERO need in breezing ANYONE in group but MT <hr></blockquote>Nerfed.... now there is no alternatives, luckily breezing the whole group is easy for me.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 3.6 lvls more and I will get Mind Eye that will stop pain ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Bloodtoo]

Wow, to read some of these post you'd swear they were the only people working hard in a group. The angst of the poor misunderstood sages who see so many things others miss.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Actually things not that bad if </DIV> <DIV>a) you group mainly low 40s folks who using tier 4+ drinks</DIV> <DIV>b) you not pushing with fighting enviroment and fighting [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that cons yellow, rarely orange to you (aka lvl 49 monsters and below)</DIV> <DIV>c) your tank have have good agi and AC</DIV> <DIV>In this case scenario the only person who will needed constant crack is MT</DIV>