Looks like coercer danm great nuker

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well everyone know about query of spells right?</DIV> <DIV>Here is a deal I discovered that in "burn" mode coercer can pull damage rival to wizard if not higher...</DIV> <DIV>By lv 28 you will have 3 fast casting nukes and 1 slow casting long recast (**mods 4 teh win!!1!**ty one thou)</DIV> <DIV>Low damage apperently cause low to no agro and coercer chaining just mild jolt and muddled thinking can do every 1.5s about 100-120 damage none stop for very very long time. I havent got to point of getting Despotic Mind but I believe it can be included in query too so going trough 3-4 nuke query at least at upper 20s coercer certanly good at "burst DPS"... There is a trick thou - in order to maximize DPS you need keep gloom/melancholy running</DIV>

[Blea]

<DIV>Thanks for the tip Marion Barry, I will look for coercers the next time my group needs dps.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>You wellcome just remember 1 thing - if taking in group necro or conjurer you asking for exp debt for whole group lol and my points were </DIV> <DIV>a) Coercer in mid-upper 20 one hell of the nuker and able outdamage easy all but wizards (in time wizard will cast 1 fireball I will land 2-3 muddled thinking yeilding about same damage as wizard</DIV> <DIV>b) I share my impression and not asking you to invite me for a group lol - I dont know you and I dont group with strangers who more likely then not will give me track load exp debt </DIV>

[Ashin0]

<DIV>Its possible for us to damage yeah, but knowing the luck of things that one time you go to nuking your going to burn ur mana and then another group is going to aggro and you can manage to lock them all down but your running out of mana very slowly, then oop and the group dies. I say leave the damage to the wizards and I stick to my buff bot and lookout for those add position. But good point and yeah people need to understand we aren't the same enchanters from EQ1. Even though I would really wish they would change the stun/mez conflicts. I can't stand when I daunting gaze a mob and then go on a mez a mob then come back to the stunned mob and wait for the thing to wear off before mezing it. And don't get me started on AE mez, what a joke. Sorry for getting off topic here.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

So it takes 4-5 of our spells to match one wizard spell? A pair of dots and handfull of nukes takes a fair amount of time to cast. I'm sure a wizard could cast a few spells in the same time assuming they are not limited to one spell like your examples implies. =)-K

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Nope its actually take SINGLE spell to match up damage of wizard .... you just have to cast it twice but because refresh timer on coercers nuke 3X faster then on wizards nuke you can outdamage wizard if you want to... just not very mana efficient that's all.</DIV> <DIV>Despotic mind lvl 28 nuke at adept 1  slvl if target debuffed (have gloom/melancholy on it) hit target relaible on 247-256 damage a pop every 4 second ... while you wait for refresh you can querry muddled thinking (extremely fast with good DPM nuke) by doing so you can sustein very easy about 350 damage every 4 second - loosing a lot less power then wizard (I tested that) - just make nuking chain like that - Muddle Thinking - Querry Despotic Mind - once DM started - Querry Consume Ego-once ego started querry Muddle. You can burn very fast and efficient as long as you have cleric healing you and not doting and nuking or melee for subpar damage (which is very often a case if group have 2 healer)</DIV> <DIV>I repeat - wizard can do a lot higher damage (well better say a bit higher) damage per impact and fairly power efficient but coercer can do it faster then wizard albeit not power efficient. </DIV>

[Tremblelina]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well everyone know about query of spells right?</DIV> <DIV>Here is a deal I discovered that in "burn" mode coercer can pull damage rival to wizard if not higher...<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm definately willing to say that the dps from enchanter dots + dd is nothing to sneeze at, and is beneficial to the group. I make sure to stack on the dots every chance I get to help out, regardless of whether the situation is comfortable enough to throw in some dd or not. However - unless you can put up some stats on how many nukes wizards get, and their refresh rates, as well as the damage ranges for each - how can you say that our dps could rival the wizard if not higher ? That would only be true if they get one nuke and it has a high refresh time. Otherwise, our dps is great, but does not rival them, nor should it. </DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>At adept 1 fire ball from lvl 28 wizard hit about 300-400 (never seent hat high to be honest most common number after mob debuffed around 357 vs. 256 of despotic mind) - refresh timer on ball 12s but with blaze and breath of tyrant (which is a lot faster casting thing) they can add rather other 157 or so damage. In other words in "burst" mode wizard with dots and nukes can pull out around 150DPS vs. around 100-110DPS of coercer </DIV>

[Daffid011]

Looks to me that the wizard does roughly 50% more dps in "burn mode" than you. That is a far cry from rivaling or outdamaging from your oringal thoughts. However, it is good to hear that we do add meaningful damage to encounters should the situation need. Thanks for the info.-K

[Mall]

<DIV>Reposting this here from where I made in the spell section:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly,<BR><BR>Great Job with the Enchanter class SOE!!! That is not sarcastic, I think they did it right, and I don't want the mechanics changed.<BR><BR>The main items addressed here are how long the Breeze and Haste spells last. I am a 20 Coercer, and I played a Chanter in eq1.<BR><BR>Ok, so people can say that "I don't know what I'm talking about" because I'm only 20, but the one main thing does not change for this game.<BR><BR>Group success is almost always conditional on one thing, and that's the Healer's power pool. <BR><BR>What I mean is, if the healer's power is low, one of two things have happened. Either the tank dies because he can't get healed (kept agro but needs massive healing), or the healer dies because agro was pulled with heals (having to use a lot of power), and therefore the healer dies. <BR><BR>When one of these two things happen in heavy mob fighting, one thing is almost certain: Group Wipeout.<BR><BR>Now, to address the Coercer. Get it in your heads now, you are NOT meant for DPS (grouped). You were given some dps so you can: solo some, and have a role as a second chanter in a group. <BR><BR>Frankly, if you want DPS, go be a wizard. The Coercer is the Battlefield Commander (not the healer actually). Under the current system, the Coercer must decide: Who is most important to the group at the time (for breeze, though I don't see how it's an issue, I can keep it up on 5 easily enough, 6 if I must), when can you cast haste, when should you stifle, what mobs do you need to mez (and yes, mez is important. It's all about damage reduction). You're right, it isn't as sexy as blasting for 400pts of damage, but your job is: decide who needs power, keep up haste, lower damage to the tank (saving the healer's power) by stunning/stifling, and oh yes, taking care of adds and multiples by mez.<BR><BR>I hope they don't change a thing. Do I have a lot of things to worry about? yes. Would I like a little better timer display? yes, but I'm used to the "degrade rate" of the icons now. I know when to cast the mez refresh, and when to cast stifle as stun is dropping, etc.<BR><BR>I usually get a group within a couple min now when going "lfg", and one example of how important the chanter is:<BR><BR>In FG xping with a group mostly 4 levels above me. I was lowest at 18 (didn't even have breeze or haste yet), and the entire group was at least 21 (a few 22s). Mix of healer, dps, tank, and me. We were pretty deep, and when I had to go, the result was : "^$&%, ok, sorry you have to go... we better head up..."<BR><BR>Don't tell me we aren't important or wanted. We just need to understand our intended role. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0><BR><BR>And yes, I don't want the timer increased... I like it as it is. I actually don't feel like a buff bot, like chanters did in eq1. It can be a little burdensome in combat, but that's the intent, but I don't want them nerfing the power of it by lengthning the effect time.<BR><BR>Videk, 20 Coercer, Mistmore</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's my 2c. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[clar]

<DIV>coercers are by far the the most entertaining class ive played.. once you get your post 30 spells things pick up really fast... its slow in the beginning.. but oh man <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> with some clever footwork  you can double your groups power..and if your breeze is adept 3 it can easily be a stand in for the next spell in the line (refresh lvl 34.6) so mana is always high .. cept for thos power hungry wizzies and the ever taunting tank...:robotwink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so yay ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw no i did not play enchanter in eq 1.. and in some way im happy i didnt...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mall]

<DIV>What do you mean by:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"with some clever footwork  you can double your groups power..and if your breeze is adept 3 it can easily be a stand in for the next spell in the line (refresh lvl 34.6) so mana is always high "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you explain please?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Videk</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Simple you give breeze to 1 person refresh to second breeze to 3rd and so on... aka ZERO recast and Adept 3 of Breeze about as potent as App2-3 Refresh..</DIV> <DIV>Meanwhile I wholeheartly disagree with someone word that coercer not DPS....</DIV> <DIV>Look its how it been design - coercer rocks vs. single tough target with all he got - stun, slow, stifle and massive DD... Personally I am thinking about upping Despotic Mind into Adept 3 (since jaspers not that uncommon) which should put me almost in line with Adept 1 Fire Ball of Wizard. At lvl 28 I am constantly hitting around 275-286 per pop wizard of my lvl hiting with fire ball around 320-350 but have longer refresh timer..</DIV> <DIV>I like then I need keep breeze only on 3 person a) healer b) MT c) myself rest 3 DPS I prefer have assasins those looks rare run low on power I hate most a) monks - those always run with ZERO power b) brigands (those always low at power)</DIV> <DIV>Wizards are ok suprisenly - most of em canibalize very often so yes then I have time I give em crack otherwise they run just fine w/o it</DIV>

[Mall]

<DIV>Oh, I see what you mean Tan,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I used my only siver purchase to update to Breeze Adept III. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't say we "weren't" dps, just that in a group, I think we have other responsibilities. We do have good enough dps to be a second coercer in the group, and still be beneficial. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am happy with how things are set up.  Just looking forward to 22 for the next Mez. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was going to try to get money to upgrade it immediately, but since they've nerfed crafting sales, might not happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Videk</DIV>

[Ol'b]

<DIV> <DIV>Nope its actually take SINGLE spell to match up damage of wizard .... you just have to cast it twice but because refresh timer on coercers nuke 3X faster then on wizards nuke you can outdamage wizard if you want to... just not very mana efficient that's all.</DIV> <DIV>Despotic mind lvl 28 nuke at adept 1  slvl if target debuffed (have gloom/melancholy on it) hit target relaible on 247-256 damage a pop every 4 second ... while you wait for refresh you can querry muddled thinking (extremely fast with good DPM nuke) by doing so you can sustein very easy about 350 damage every 4 second - loosing a lot less power then wizard (I tested that) - just make nuking chain like that - Muddle Thinking - Querry Despotic Mind - once DM started - Querry Consume Ego-once ego started querry Muddle. You can burn very fast and efficient as long as you have cleric healing you and not doting and nuking or melee for subpar damage (which is very often a case if group have 2 healer)</DIV> <DIV>I repeat - wizard can do a lot higher damage (well better say a bit higher) damage per impact and fairly power efficient but coercer can do it faster then wizard albeit not power efficient. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't get too excited pumping up Coercers at 28 just cause they can chain cast 4 nukes (Despotic Mind being the only one worthy of chain casting) and make them into something there not , DPS... Just wait till yer Char. is higher levels and you will see the difference</DIV></DIV>

[ClockworkVII]

<DIV>Your info on casting faster for good DPS and comparing it to Wizard is ok but not realistic. No.1 When u come to the group <b/c solo play at 25+ isnt realistic either>, CC + buffin is 75% of our time. Hence less time for DPS. Even if u wanted to spam those DDs + DOTs, group doesnt want a corercer for DPS, they snag a **mods 4 teh win!!1!**/Rang/Dirge/Brig ect. They consume less pwr for more DPS at a much faster rate then all classes except Warlock which can hold its own consistantly. Wiz has good DPS and is a nice comparison but Wiz is more AOE dmg then single target hence it doesnt mean much when u compare to Wiz b/c they have a different kind of DPS like War's.</DIV> <DIV>Best of Luck  and Happy hunting</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clock</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ps. Fix stacking issues plz DEVs!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Valdaya]

<DIV>I wanted to comment on this, and this seemed like the best thread to do it.  Anyway, tonight on gaining level 28 I promptly got Despotic Mind, and was impressed with the damage it dealt (balanced by its recast time).  It may not have been terribly more effecient than alternating between Mind Jolt and Muddled Thinking, but it was fun to see big numbers, around 250-300 at Adept 1.  So when the group broke up, I went to do my nightly black market check.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Despotic Mind: Master 1 for 3 gold and change</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yoink!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now this is some really good damage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Taking it out to test, I was hitting for between 380-450 on enemies after Gloom.  That's comparable to the wizard's Fireball (Adept, at least).  I'm quite pleased with this, because while I know I'm not a wizard and that my role is so much more, large flashy numbers are still cool.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Folks important thing in order to maximize damage of Despotic mind target must be full debuffed with Gloom and Melancholy - after this 2 dots at lvl 29 I was relaible hitting in 320 range per hit peaking out around 386 (rare). W/o debuff you will hit in low mid 200s.</DIV> <DIV>At lvl 29 </DIV> <DIV>Despotic mind maxed around 356-386 (Adept 1 probably will upgrade into Adept 3)</DIV> <DIV>Mind jolt around 104 (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Muddled Thinking aroumd 102 (App 2)</DIV> <DIV>Ego Strike around 154 (Adept 1)</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>double post delete</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tanatus on <span class=date_text>12-12-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 PM</span>

[Bravnik]

<DIV>We Coercers do good DPS for being a Chanter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When not mezzing I will usually do the following.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Numbers from memory so please correct me if more/less than stated)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Melancholy - 53 Per Tick</LI> <LI>Gloom - 25 - 30 Per Tick</LI> <LI>Anguish - 62 Per Tick</LI></OL> <P>Start pumping Despontic Mind 250 - 350 Reliably with Ergo Strike 100 - 150 In Between. Toss in a few Muddled Thinking and a Mind Jolt here and there.</P> <P>So that is 100 to 150 per tick for the dots every tick and about 300 - 500 (give or take) ever 5 secs. </P> <P>That is nothing to sneeze at and is pretty good DPS considering our main job is not DPS but CC. I can chain kill Orange Mobs with little effort or risk (Not taking into account the root bug).</P> <P> </P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>At lvl 30 I have</DIV> <DIV>Melancholy (adept 1) -53-57 a tic</DIV> <DIV>Gloom (adept 1) 43-47 a tic</DIV> <DIV>Spasm (adet 1) 28-32 a tic</DIV> <DIV>Despotic mind (adept 1) upper 200s (if none or only 1 debuff spell in) and mid 300s (gloom+melancholy)</DIV> <DIV>Muddled thinking (apprentice 2) around 100-110 (if target debuffed othewise around 70)</DIV> <DIV>Mind Jolt (adept 1) around 110-124</DIV> <DIV>Ego Strike (adept 1) (on fully debuffed target) 154-174</DIV> <DIV>And ya I hate too with passion root bug <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> [Removed for Content] with it? <STRONG><EM>Master</EM></STRONG> Binding Light brake after 1 tic of dots on <STRONG><EM>grey</EM></STRONG> conned mob</DIV>

[Demondrega]

Despotic Mind at Master 1 hits for over 400 damage. The average right now is about 350 or so. Mob resists etc also play a big part though. Either way I see alot more damage potential etc. I can't match a wizard. But I can hit like a truck, mez/breeze/haste. True I am using a master 1 spell, but I'm satisfied...now if there was something to do with all these thoughtstones ... (throws away useless group mez). By the way a good coercer should be able to keep breeze on 6 people, haste going, keep his mana up at all times, and mez/dps at all times as the timers allow/needed. Just my 2 coppers.Demon

[Tr]

<DIV>Coercers are worthless nukers. JUst admit it. We have some doting capabilities yes, but nuke comparing to wizard or warlock is absurd absurd. And if you are silly eough to buy masters at low levels then I'm sorry that money you threw out the window because in a few levels you will not be able to nuke higher levle mobs. DOne.</DIV>

[mino]

<DIV>I thought I would post something about the numbers wizards can do considering I am a wizard currently only 24th level but just so you know I regularly hit for 400+ but range is 275-420 (probably averages 370) or so right now with Ad 1 BOF with debuffs on btw <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... then ad 1 BOT hits for 170-200 as well and ad 1 Blaze hits for 120-140  and I keep the debuff/dots up which with app 3 Freezing Whorl ~35 dam per tick, app 3 Incinerate ~15 per tick and app2 chilling wind ~25 per tick therefore with dots up around 75 per tick.  I am currently mining the crap out of ant to get an ad 3 freezing whorl but that is another story <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is not meant as a see what I can do kind of post was just reading this thread and thought it might help to post some numbers from a wizard my alt will be a coercer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forgot to mention I would post the recast timer on these but am at work and can't remember off hand but usually by the time I finish BOF BOT Blaze BOF has recycled</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BOF = Ball of Fire</DIV> <DIV>BOT = Breath of Tyrannt</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laters guys hope this helps with the discussion</DIV><p>Message Edited by minobu on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>It do indeed because maximum hit I have seen with BOF (recast timer 12s vs. 9s for DM) at lvl 31 of wizard was .... 473 presisely. Because wizards get Ball of Fire at lvl 23 they pick nuking power a lot early then coercers. First serious nuke coercers pick only at lvl 28 (so wizard had his BOF for already 5 lvls) but in low 30s BOF already close to maximum power and as I undestand damage from BOF capped at ~550 for adept 1 lvl - DM still picking up power and probably get maxed out close to mid 30s and should hit at adept 1 lvl around 420-430. Yes its lower maximum damage cap then BoF but hey lol wizard/warlock are primary nukers not coercers...</DIV> <DIV>About total damage: stacking gloom, spasm, melancholy, anguish (at lvl 30 all adept 1) net around 190 damage per tic so in doting department coercer far superior over wizard</DIV>

[mino]

<DIV>well the point of my post was not to get in some kind of a contest just wanted to give a good idea for the damage I do at 24 as it seemed there was some guessing going on ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and from reading the wizard forums some high level wizards have stated that their maxed out BOF was doing around 650 max just an FYI <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by minobu on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Heh I know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Adept 3 BOF is nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - might make as well Adept 3 DM (which will do upper 400-low 500 then maxed)</DIV>