AA Double attack bugged on rangers?

[kavic44]

<DIV>A ranger asked me NOT to use our EoF double attack AA on him the other day because it causes him to miss more frequently.  Anyone else hear this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Myrh</DIV>

[Dooh]

I had a ranger request to not have me use on him today as well. Said it lowered his attack percentage by 20%, and his dps by 400ish. However im on PF too, so was probally the same ranger :p<p>Message Edited by Chilly420 on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[Zendi_Perma]

It wasn't me.  :smileywink:   My biggest problem with that buff is I get too much aggro and die, even with ignorant bliss poison.     I'll figure it out how to manage it.

[AfflictedOne]

Well rangers appear to miss fairly often on autoattack.  After checking some parses it seems to be more of a mental thing since they attack way fewer times than any other class.  People always remember the misses.  I know I've been guilty of this a lot. That being said it will probably cause more misses.... cause all your doing is adding more attacks but you will also have more hits.  I will say that this is perhaps the best buff for rangers in the game and combined with haste will make them a dps machine.<div></div>

[Tappen]

I think you're right, Afflicted.  More auto-attack means a higher ratio of attacks that are auto instead of CA, and auto doesn't have the to-hit bonus that nearly all CAs have, even Apprentice 1 versions.  So people will have higher miss percentages, but the buff is just adding more hits and misses in the same amount of time, not taking anything away.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Tappen wrote:I think you're right, Afflicted.  More auto-attack means a higher ratio of attacks that are auto instead of CA, and auto doesn't have the to-hit bonus that nearly all CAs have, even Apprentice 1 versions.  So people will have higher miss percentages, but the buff is just adding more hits and misses in the same amount of time, not taking anything away.<div></div><hr></blockquote>They shouldn't have a higher miss %, but rather they should just miss more because they're having a chance to hit more.

[Merkad]

If given the chance, I always take this aa buff. Sometimes, when not enough people show up we have a temp who brings his Illusionist alt with us, and from those times, I think it is safe to say that no one in my guild thinks it is broke (thankfully, I am always prioritized for being the recipient of this aa). You guys are my favorite buff class now.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.<div></div>

[kavic44]

<DIV>Well, we tested it out on one of our rangers last night in DT and to sum things up, he was getting more misses, but not at a higher percentage.  It seemed to be adding around 400 - 500 dps to him depending on the mobs, but I wasnt tracking that quite as well so mileage will certainly vary there (If you are a hard factual numbers person, Ill apologize ahead of time =).  In any event, it certainly doesnt seem to be bugged.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Myrh</DIV>

[dazze]

<P>Hhmmm interesting.</P> <P>I used to get this AA all the time off my illus, and on "average" it increases your dps by about 20%-25%., as a ranger.</P> <P>Last night after reading these boards our illusionist said that he beleived that rogues (inc. assassin) would benefit more from this aa. </P> <P>Personally I dont beleive this is true atall. Last night the grp set up was, Illus, Inq, Ranger, DIrge, Brigand, and Assassin. The assassin had the dbl attack aa, plus the haste buff, plus the dps buffs, plus the dirge skill buff. I (ranger) only had the dps buffs and the skill buff. I had no haste. </P> <P>On average I was equalling the assassins dps and on a regular basis exceeding it. If the buff made such a difference to assassins then he should be out dpsing me by a long way. He is an excellent assassin btw.</P> <P>One thing people have not seemed to take note of is that even though rangers will take less "swings" than rogues/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they will hit considerably higher numbers. Personally I hit 6.5k but their are rangers out there who can crit aa much higher, a dbl attack is more efficinet if it "procs" for 6k than if it does for 800. Just some figures: </P> <P>Assume a ranger on average hits for 2.5k (not an over estimate), a rogue for 400x2 (I dont know if this figure is correct btw). Assume a fight is 60 seconds long. Assume the dealy for the ranger is 3 secs with haste for the rogue it is 1 sec per weapon on dw. Again assume none miss. The ranger swings 20 times and does 50000 dmg the rogue swings 120 (2 hits per second on a dw) times and does 48000 damage (im not accounting for ca damage in either case btw, I realise that rogues do more ca damage than rangers do)/ On the swing count a ranger would have 5 of his attacks dbl attack, so an extra 12500 dps, the rogue would have 30 of his attacks dbl attack meaning 12000 extra dps. </P> <P>Not a large difference I agree. HOWEVER. Rangers due to the delay of there weapons, and the predator agi line, have a far higher chance to critically attack than any other class does. Meaning the chances when a dbl attack will critically hit is imo far higher.</P> <P>About the missing hits as well. This has nothing to do with any buff, the rate you hit is entirely dependent on the ranged skill and the mob you are attacking. Again for a personal pov, out of 150 swings (an average epic encounter) I will probably miss 3-5 times.</P> <P>One thing I have noticed which may or may not be relevant to this discussion. Is that ranger CA do not seem to dbl attack. Like the rangers own small dbl attack buff, I can only see that auto attack is dbling. I have been relaibly told off my illus that this shouldnt be happening. This may or may not be why it appears that rogues are better off with this buff????</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Vaiko]

<P>Just few comment dazzerd:</P> <P>The 25% double attack effects only auto damage. If you get a 25% damage increase I would assume you are doing only auto attack.</P> <P>My auto attack damage part is less then 40%, therefore the benefit I’m expecting is 10% or less.</P> <P>In addition I have a 10% double attack AA which does not stack with the Illu AA. So the benefit is even less.</P> <P>Where do get the 400 damage for the assassin weapon?<BR>The 2,5 k average  for ranger bow is not the number I get. I’m below that but I see the 6k hits you talk about.</P> <P>My bow is a 100 dps bow, I know of 55 dps dual wield weapons which probably can get down to 0,7 sec attack time.<BR>Supporting my assumption of a higher damage number for the assassin is that I see the auto attack part of our assassin is larger then my auto attack percentage and our assassin does in addition more damage overall.</P> <P>Double attack does not make any difference between if you hit few times for more or more often for less. 25% a second attack is flat 25% more damage.</P> <P>The flavour text for the Illu AA is misleading. Double attack effects only auto damage. I tested this.</P> <P>Because almost every melee/ranged DD class has their own double attack buff which does not stack with the Illu AA the AA is a little bit disappointing for me. I expected much more from this AA when I saw it the first time.</P> <P>My conclusion is that the person who benefits most from the Illu AA is very situational and depends not only on the class but also on the setup of the class (AA) and what buffs the person already got form the other classes in the group. Classes which already have double attack are likely not to be the best choice.</P>

[Mihos]

<P>The non-stacking with personal double attacks mentioned above conflicts with everyone I have casted it on is telling me.  I checked just now with a bezerker and Swashy and it did indeed stack.</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Mihos wrote: <P>The non-stacking with personal double attacks mentioned above conflicts with everyone I have casted it on is telling me.  I checked just now with a bezerker and Swashy and it did indeed stack.</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> I agree, the information about our Double Attack not stacking is completely incorrect. Everybody who I have talked to says it stacks just fine.

[brinomsford]

It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack.

[Vaiko]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm not totally wrong in math, 400 dps increase in auto attack means the ranger you are talking about had 1600 dps auto attack before the buff. Are you sure about this number? How much dps did that ranger including CAs buffed with your double attack?</P> <P>My log is telling me: with the buff 25% double attack. Without: 10% double attack. It was few weeks ago I checked last. I can check again in the log from last week if you convince me the ranger you are talking about is not giving you strange numbers.</P> <P>Just looking at dps and assuming it's coming from a buff may not be the best choice to validate the behaviour of the buff. I've seen 25% change in dps without changing anything just because the RNG likes me or not for that encounter. I'm counting the lines where the bow is really hitting twice at the same time and I got 25%, not more.</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm not totally wrong in math, 400 dps increase in auto attack means the ranger you are talking about had 1600 dps auto attack before the buff. Are you sure about this number? How much dps did that ranger including CAs buffed with your double attack?</P> <P>My log is telling me: with the buff 25% double attack. Without: 10% double attack. It was few weeks ago I checked last. I can check again in the log from last week if you convince me the ranger you are talking about is not giving you strange numbers.</P> <P>Just looking at dps and assuming it's coming from a buff may not be the best choice to validate the behaviour of the buff. I've seen 25% change in dps without changing anything just because the RNG likes me or not for that encounter. I'm counting the lines where the bow is really hitting twice at the same time and I got 25%, not more.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>if it stacks he would of had 35% double attack which means he would of had 1142 dps worth of auto attack with buff and 750ish without, which isn't too far off, especially if the fights are short enough and the ranger gets a few high crits, along with this buff.<p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>01-29-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[Stumpwater28]

<P>When I raid I only put this buff on rangers. It is the best buff you can give a ranger and in my opinion the best buff in the game. Devs if you are reading this thread, dont change a thing. It is great the way it is and you guys did a great job with our AA lines (well except for the extra damage on the end of the group dots only effecting the primary mob that was targeted). </P> <P> </P> <P>-stump</P>

[brinomsford]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm not totally wrong in math, 400 dps increase in auto attack means the ranger you are talking about had 1600 dps auto attack before the buff. Are you sure about this number? How much dps did that ranger including CAs buffed with your double attack?</P> <P>My log is telling me: with the buff 25% double attack. Without: 10% double attack. It was few weeks ago I checked last. I can check again in the log from last week if you convince me the ranger you are talking about is not giving you strange numbers.</P> <P>Just looking at dps and assuming it's coming from a buff may not be the best choice to validate the behaviour of the buff. I've seen 25% change in dps without changing anything just because the RNG likes me or not for that encounter. I'm counting the lines where the bow is really hitting twice at the same time and I got 25%, not more.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>If you get a ranger that isnt [Removed for Content] and realize that the math is not that easy because posions and other random procs it dose make sence.  Before you say anything nothing procing off ranged stop some dose.  His DPS makes me wet.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Vaiko]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm not totally wrong in math, 400 dps increase in auto attack means the ranger you are talking about had 1600 dps auto attack before the buff. Are you sure about this number? How much dps did that ranger including CAs buffed with your double attack?</P> <P>My log is telling me: with the buff 25% double attack. Without: 10% double attack. It was few weeks ago I checked last. I can check again in the log from last week if you convince me the ranger you are talking about is not giving you strange numbers.</P> <P>Just looking at dps and assuming it's coming from a buff may not be the best choice to validate the behaviour of the buff. I've seen 25% change in dps without changing anything just because the RNG likes me or not for that encounter. I'm counting the lines where the bow is really hitting twice at the same time and I got 25%, not more.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>if it stacks he would of had 35% double attack which means he would of had 1142 dps worth of auto attack with buff and 750ish without, which isn't too far off, especially if the fights are short enough and the ranger gets a few high crits, along with this buff. <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>01-29-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:02 PM</SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1142 dps = 135%<BR>930 dps = 110%<BR>845 dps = 100%</P> <P>I’m not able to follow your numbers. What am I doing different than you?</P>

[Vaiko]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm not totally wrong in math, 400 dps increase in auto attack means the ranger you are talking about had 1600 dps auto attack before the buff. Are you sure about this number? How much dps did that ranger including CAs buffed with your double attack?</P> <P>My log is telling me: with the buff 25% double attack. Without: 10% double attack. It was few weeks ago I checked last. I can check again in the log from last week if you convince me the ranger you are talking about is not giving you strange numbers.</P> <P>Just looking at dps and assuming it's coming from a buff may not be the best choice to validate the behaviour of the buff. I've seen 25% change in dps without changing anything just because the RNG likes me or not for that encounter. I'm counting the lines where the bow is really hitting twice at the same time and I got 25%, not more.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>If you get a ranger that isnt [Removed for Content] and realize that the math is not that easy because posions and other random procs it dose make sence.  Before you say anything nothing procing off ranged stop some dose.  His DPS makes me wet.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Sorry, don’t get your point. What are you trying to say?</P>

[Vaiko]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stumpwater28 wrote: <P>When I raid I only put this buff on rangers. It is the best buff you can give a ranger and in my opinion the best buff in the game. Devs if you are reading this thread, dont change a thing. It is great the way it is and you guys did a great job with our AA lines (well except for the extra damage on the end of the group dots only effecting the primary mob that was targeted).</P> <P> </P> <P>-stump</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actual, I like the Illusionist AA lines as well (currently only mid 30 but I had a chance to play a little bit around in beta with max level).<BR>I’m not commenting on the Illusionist AAs in general instead I’m raising a question regarding the double attack AA.</P> <P>I’m not able to 100% agree with your assessment that the double attack is the best buff in game because it increases the auto damage by roughly 25%. 50 points hast can increase the auto attack by almost 50% (depending where you are starting from) which is not bad either.</P> <P>But because it’s a personal opinion, I think we do not need to agree on what is the best buff in game.</P> <P>The point I’m bringing up is that my observations and the data I collected in my log file contradicts the opinion of most of the people posting here and I would like to understand why.</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm not totally wrong in math, 400 dps increase in auto attack means the ranger you are talking about had 1600 dps auto attack before the buff. Are you sure about this number? How much dps did that ranger including CAs buffed with your double attack?</P> <P>My log is telling me: with the buff 25% double attack. Without: 10% double attack. It was few weeks ago I checked last. I can check again in the log from last week if you convince me the ranger you are talking about is not giving you strange numbers.</P> <P>Just looking at dps and assuming it's coming from a buff may not be the best choice to validate the behaviour of the buff. I've seen 25% change in dps without changing anything just because the RNG likes me or not for that encounter. I'm counting the lines where the bow is really hitting twice at the same time and I got 25%, not more.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>if it stacks he would of had 35% double attack which means he would of had 1142 dps worth of auto attack with buff and 750ish without, which isn't too far off, especially if the fights are short enough and the ranger gets a few high crits, along with this buff. <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>01-29-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:02 PM</SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1142 dps = 135%<BR>930 dps = 110%<BR>845 dps = 100%</P> <P>I’m not able to follow your numbers. What am I doing different than you?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>not realizing that 1142 dps is viable on auto attack with t8 ammo and t7 fabled long delay bow with 100%+ haste + 35% double attack on a short fight. (less than 30s)<p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>01-30-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 AM</span>

[Vaiko]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brinomsford wrote: It dose stack properly on rangers our reported that it added over 400 dps to his autoatack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm not totally wrong in math, 400 dps increase in auto attack means the ranger you are talking about had 1600 dps auto attack before the buff. Are you sure about this number? How much dps did that ranger including CAs buffed with your double attack?</P> <P>My log is telling me: with the buff 25% double attack. Without: 10% double attack. It was few weeks ago I checked last. I can check again in the log from last week if you convince me the ranger you are talking about is not giving you strange numbers.</P> <P>Just looking at dps and assuming it's coming from a buff may not be the best choice to validate the behaviour of the buff. I've seen 25% change in dps without changing anything just because the RNG likes me or not for that encounter. I'm counting the lines where the bow is really hitting twice at the same time and I got 25%, not more.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>if it stacks he would of had 35% double attack which means he would of had 1142 dps worth of auto attack with buff and 750ish without, which isn't too far off, especially if the fights are short enough and the ranger gets a few high crits, along with this buff. <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>01-29-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:02 PM</SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1142 dps = 135% 930 dps = 110% 845 dps = 100%</P> <P>I’m not able to follow your numbers. What am I doing different than you?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>not realizing that 1142 dps is viable on auto attack with t8 ammo and t7 fabled long delay bow with 100%+ haste + 35% double attack on a short fight. (less than 30s) <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>01-30-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:49 AM</SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not my point.</P> <P>Before buff 930 dps, after buff 1142 dps. 1142 – 930 = 212 which is in no case the described 400 dps increase.</P> <P>If 1142 is a valid auto damage dps or not depends on the situation. I’ve normally less then 600 dps auto damage but I’m rarely dps buffed and I don’t reach the haste cap except with help of the short duration buff.</P> <P>I think the number does not help you to see if you get 25 or 35% double attack with the buff. Only the log can tell.</P>