AA-improved Synergism vs. Haste

[Cohann]

I have updated Synergism to a 50% Trigger-Chance. My Synergism is of Master 2 Quality. Haste is Master 1 and gives 68%.Now I'm wondering what brings more DPS to my Raid. Has anyone parsed this? I think that it would make sense to give double attack + haste to one briga and use the other conc slots for Synergism.What do you think?<div></div>

[Xanoth]

haste > synergism

[Stumpwater28]

<DIV>I dont know yet, but I definitly think it is a bit early to state one is better than the other. Prior to this AA update it was clear after testing that haste was better, however now a 48% buff to this spell and some other class proc boosting AA's it seems this may change.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it is a dependancy on which chain classes are in your group and what mages are in the raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now when it comes to mages, I would like get some numbers on the adverage amount of spell casts per minute to help understand which mages will maximize this spell buff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As well an investigation on if the de aggro advantage can help not only increase the dps of the mage by the damage part of the proc, but are new tactics that can be introduced to certain mage classes by the deaggro? I am sure this proc is not going to prevent an ice nova on pull of course, but it seems that it should have a greater potential to have a mesuable effect on aggro now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also it seems that if an optimal mage group had a dirge that had luck of the dirge up the DPS from the spell (and hell no I am not saying to take the dirge from the MT group) could very well beat spending the cons on haste. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also are there other classes that have buffs that increase the proc rates that are mages? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah question, if I end up with a SK or Pally in the group... which is better for them now... the haste or the synergism? I wonder</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course I am going to put illusory arm and haste on an assasin before anything else though. lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-stump</DIV>

[Pins]

Haste still beats out Synergism.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<blockquote><hr>Stumpwater28 wrote:<DIV><DIV>Oh yeah question, if I end up with a SK or Pally in the group... which is better for them now... the haste or the synergism? I wonder</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Of course I am going to put illusory arm and haste on an assasin before anything else though. lol</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>-stump</DIV><hr></blockquote>For a SK, unless they have a slow weapon - synergism. The reason is that SKs cast a lot of spells, so the weapon swings will already be fitting in around this. Of course both is good too.Curious about illusory arm - I have been going for Penetrations (so that when I have to mezz I can), and the one next to it that ends in Time Compression. Is double attack that good? (Yaulp - templar double attack, is ok, but nothing startling)

[Aluvius]

Synergism for SK's for sure.  Paladins hmm, either is probably a waste on them though I'd say haste if forced to choose.

[leviclaud]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV>Stumpwater28 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>Of course I am going to put illusory arm and haste on an assasin before anything else though. lol</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>-stump <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so far from what i have been testing the brigand in our guild has benifited more from illusory arm. when she's in grp she has 97% double attack which is a almost definate chance it hits. of course there have been a few arguments  about what is better. her having 97% or another scout having 25%. whats your opinions on this? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for the haste synergism question, really depends on grp setup. if were in a proper scout grp, haste ftw. if stuck with a few mages, might have room for synergism on 1 other person. i usually have haste on 3 ppl and synergism on myself.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by leviclaud on <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:37 PM</span>

[Xanoth]

<blockquote><hr>Aluvius wrote:Synergism for SK's for sure.<hr></blockquote>I'd rather have haste

[Stealth Status]

I would never buff a SK with anything , or play with one in my guild LOL=P<div></div>

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leviclaud wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Stumpwater28 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>Of course I am going to put illusory arm and haste on an assasin before anything else though. lol</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>-stump <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so far from what i have been testing the brigand in our guild has benifited more from illusory arm. when she's in grp she has 97% double attack which is a almost definate chance it hits. of course there have been a few arguments  about what is better. her having 97% or another scout having 25%. whats your opinions on this? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for the haste synergism question, really depends on grp setup. if were in a proper scout grp, haste ftw. if stuck with a few mages, might have room for synergism on 1 other person. i usually have haste on 3 ppl and synergism on myself.</DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by leviclaud on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:37 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Me having a swashie with maxed double attack from AAs and an illusionist with illusory arm, I would put it on a wis specced rogue over an assassain, and (possibly selfish reasoning) on a swashie over a brig. Double attack is a normal autoattack and wis specced rogues have to use one handed over dual wield, wich makes their autoattack higher thus the double attack hits harder (I havent been able to parse EoF raids well due to bein on vacation and playing on not so good computer and thus these numbers are from memory so possibly a bit off, but KoS I usually had like 50% of dps pure slash as a swashie whilst assassains might lie at 20%). I honestly dunno if double attack can proc on secondary, been lots of studies of the mechanic, but all Ive seen is from one handed PoV. As for why swashie over brig, swashies has self haste proc buff wich along with illu haste gets real high and hurricane should to my knowledge be able to proc double attack as well as its able to proc other things multitarget. Thats a lot of double attacking in the end. Another class Id be interested to try illusory arm on is ranger, with one of the top bows, good ammo and maxed out haste, a 25% double attack should add very nice extra dps and looking on the miniscule amount they can get on their own via AAs it looks like devs think so too. Unfortunatly, my main is my swashie and our regular illu went for time compression first, so havent had much chance to test it out, especially with debuffs mattering more now and brigands arent alone on the wishlist for debuffers. </P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leviclaud wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Stumpwater28 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>Of course I am going to put illusory arm and haste on an assasin before anything else though. lol</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>-stump <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so far from what i have been testing the brigand in our guild has benifited more from illusory arm. when she's in grp she has 97% double attack which is a almost definate chance it hits. of course there have been a few arguments  about what is better. her having 97% or another scout having 25%. whats your opinions on this? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for the haste synergism question, really depends on grp setup. if were in a proper scout grp, haste ftw. if stuck with a few mages, might have room for synergism on 1 other person. i usually have haste on 3 ppl and synergism on myself.</DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by leviclaud on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:37 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Me having a swashie with maxed double attack from AAs and an illusionist with illusory arm, I would put it on a wis specced rogue over an assassain, and (possibly selfish reasoning) on a swashie over a brig. Double attack is a normal autoattack and wis specced rogues have to use one handed over dual wield, wich makes their autoattack higher thus the double attack hits harder (I havent been able to parse EoF raids well due to bein on vacation and playing on not so good computer and thus these numbers are from memory so possibly a bit off, but KoS I usually had like 50% of dps pure slash as a swashie whilst assassains might lie at 20%). I honestly dunno if double attack can proc on secondary, been lots of studies of the mechanic, but all Ive seen is from one handed PoV. As for why swashie over brig, swashies has self haste proc buff wich along with illu haste gets real high and hurricane should to my knowledge be able to proc double attack as well as its able to proc other things multitarget. Thats a lot of double attacking in the end. Another class Id be interested to try illusory arm on is ranger, with one of the top bows, good ammo and maxed out haste, a 25% double attack should add very nice extra dps and looking on the miniscule amount they can get on their own via AAs it looks like devs think so too. Unfortunatly, my main is my swashie and our regular illu went for time compression first, so havent had much chance to test it out, especially with debuffs mattering more now and brigands arent alone on the wishlist for debuffers. </P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> Double Attack works off both weapons. Thus, there is the best classes to put it on would be Predator, non-wis Spec'd Rogue, Brawler, wis-spec'd Rogue, and then whoever.

[simpwrx02]

As a wizzy trying to give soem info synergism noramlly allows me to up my dps by a goodly amount I have seen me be able to go up by as much as 100dps with out pulling aggro with the 48% synergism on me... plus the added damage it does is really nice... Yes i die more than anyone else in my guilds raid force, with the exception of a certain dirge who goes down with the best of them, but then again he is the guild cheerleader and arent cheerleaders good at going down? 

[Zenith]

<DIV>Synergism beats haste only on people who spam cast. Ex I always have it on myself, I've gotten a couple hundred thousand in total dmg froma raid just from that proc. Slow casters it won't be as effective.</DIV>

[Stumpwater28]

<P>Hey all, </P> <P>Great to see people looking into this. </P> <P>I ran a test of full synergism (five cons) on a DT raid last night. </P> <P>I have not fully crunched the numbers, but here is what it is looking like.</P> <P>Haste is still awesome and it wins out in most situations. (unless you have a very specific type of group or mob)</P> <P>Synergism did about 7% total dps on wizards, 5% on a necro and 17% on a conj. Sorry we did not have a warlock. </P> <P>So this indicates that it may be worthwhile to cast this on conj's. </P> <P>I am by no means finished with looking at this, but these are the numbers that I can remember. </P> <P>-stump </P>

[khufure]

I'm sure you all know this but..On Rangers haste is a wasted concentration slot.  Put it on any assassin you can find, though.  This is because rangers self-buff haste with their stance while assassins self-buff damage%<div></div>

[Banditman]

I had our Illusionist run Synergism on my Conjuror last night . . . it's very very impressive on a Conjuror.  Probably a Necro as well.Classes who have to cast a LOT of spells to do their damage.  Warlocks and Wizards probably won't benefit as much since they simply don't cast as much.  Enchanters with the spell haste AA's probably would benefit greatly.<div></div>

[simpwrx02]

<P>As far as synegism goes on teh "slow casting classes" I thought all procs based off of % were normalized to a 3 seconds cast/recovery time aka faster casting classes get a lslightly lower proc that advertised where as the slower casting classes get a higher proc rate, either way i was interested about the dt raid info i would like to see actual total damage done from this basically since me being a wazard have really hard hitting nukes and therefor it will be a lower %, where as the conj's nukes are pretty weak and a few hundred point proc will add up to more % simply due to the fact that his nukes are smaller.  I am not saying that it dosent benefit the conj more just with this type of reasoning it dosent give an acuurate dipiction of the results.  Also would like to know if the aformentioned classes where chain casting or not. Personaly as a wizzy synergism is noramlly anywhere from 6-12% of my total damage done zone wide,  noramlly closer to the 6% when i use fusion as much as possible since fusion is a big hitter, however fusion almost always proc synergism i would say about 75% of the time. However the deaggro part is still the part i like best for if it does say 12% of my damage that means i can do probably another 15-20% more damage with out pulling aggro.  How ever the one thing i am curious about is if the damage done counts toward hate or if only the deaggro part counts toward hate? </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>simpwrx wrote: <P>As far as synegism goes on teh "slow casting classes" I thought all procs based off of % were normalized to a 3 seconds cast/recovery time aka faster casting classes get a lslightly lower proc that advertised where as the slower casting classes get a higher proc rate, either way i was interested about the dt raid info i would like to see actual total damage done from this basically since me being a wazard have really hard hitting nukes and therefor it will be a lower %, where as the conj's nukes are pretty weak and a few hundred point proc will add up to more % simply due to the fact that his nukes are smaller.  I am not saying that it dosent benefit the conj more just with this type of reasoning it dosent give an acuurate dipiction of the results.  Also would like to know if the aformentioned classes where chain casting or not. Personaly as a wizzy synergism is noramlly anywhere from 6-12% of my total damage done zone wide,  noramlly closer to the 6% when i use fusion as much as possible since fusion is a big hitter, however fusion almost always proc synergism i would say about 75% of the time. However the deaggro part is still the part i like best for if it does say 12% of my damage that means i can do probably another 15-20% more damage with out pulling aggro.  How ever the one thing i am curious about is if the damage done counts toward hate or if only the deaggro part counts toward hate? </P><hr></blockquote> If you think Synergism is good because of the de-aggro part, you need to do some reading. 1 Damage = 1 Threat, therefore on average Synergism will give you roughly 705 De-taunt everytime it goes off, guess what in Halls of Seeing last night the Median amount of damage from Synergism for me was 675. That means 30 de-taunt everytime it procs on the average. Big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing deal, over on the Conjuror it did 677 Median, ooh 28 de-taunt, again, if you think it's a de-aggro, you are completely mis-informed

[Banditman]

My Conjuror proc'ed Synergism 401 times last night, averaging 612 damage per proc (800ish INT).  Total damage done was about 246k.  I think this was with 4 AA's into improved Synergism.  This was his second biggest proc.  Dissonant Note (Troubador Aria) proc'ed 491 times, but for 537 damage per proc.  Total damage there was 265k.<div></div>

[simpwrx02]

IF you think that the deaggro dosent change but only the damage part changes then you are indeed a confused indivdual the deagrro scales right along with the damage aspect of it therefor if you crit the proc, you crit both the damage and deaggro part of it, so if you are doing higher damage than the description states then you are doing a wider gap of deaggro so it becomes even more beneficial.  Very few things do a set amount of damage and never change, one of the only ones i can think of at the moment is mana burn with no debuffs on the exact same lvl and type of mob will do the exact same amount of damage every single time 50% health, everyother spell can either be higher or lower all based upon the RNG and debuffs. So if the damage aspect is procing say 650 on average the deaggro is probably procing close to 900 on average, the problem is that we have no way of seeing this, i normally proc synergism in the high 600s on a riad every single time, but can some how increase my dps significantly more with our rawing aggro than this 30 total dehate does for me. So with a 48% chance to proc lets just say that this will trigger once every 6 seconds or 10 times per minute.... so i get roughly 6000 more gamage from the proc and 300 dehate using your formula, why am i able to go from getting aggro at around 950dps to no aggro at close to 1200 dps, if it only gives me 5more dps in dehate.... so with your logic i should get aggro at 1060 dps, but in the high 1100-low 1200s i still dont have aggro..... only explanation is that the deaggro scales along with the damage.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>simpwrx wrote:IF you think that the deaggro dosent change but only the damage part changes then you are indeed a confused indivdual the deagrro scales right along with the damage aspect of it<hr></blockquote>No, the de-agrgo does NOT scale. You can have 10 int or 1000 INT. The de-aggro is the same, period.

[Etillchou]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>simpwrx wrote:IF you think that the deaggro dosent change but only the damage part changes then you are indeed a confused indivdual the deagrro scales right along with the damage aspect of it<hr></blockquote>No, the de-agrgo does NOT scale. You can have 10 int or 1000 INT. The de-aggro is the same, period.<hr></blockquote>Yes I can verify that. The Deagroo does NOT scale up on the amount of int. Only the damage the proc does goes up with more int.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<blockquote><hr>Etillchou wrote:<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>simpwrx wrote:IF you think that the deaggro dosent change but only the damage part changes then you are indeed a confused indivdual the deagrro scales right along with the damage aspect of it<hr></blockquote>No, the de-agrgo does NOT scale. You can have 10 int or 1000 INT. The de-aggro is the same, period.<hr></blockquote>Yes I can verify that. The Deagroo does NOT scale up on the amount of int. Only the damage the proc does goes up with more int.<hr></blockquote> How does one verify a deaggro that is not logged?

[Etillchou]

One looks at the spell description before and after raising your int and look what changes.

[Manyak]

<DIV>haste is still better than synergism, but u still gotta follow the old rule of which classes should get it. assassins are good for it, monks arent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and illu arm is best on a DW scout. since that buff is gonna give roughly the same number of double attacks per min to both a DW assassin and a 1H swashy, its better on the assassin. When one of the DW weapons procs a double attack hit, BOTH weapons do damage. and no matter what, the DR on 2DWs is always better than the DR on a 1H.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so in short, putting it on a DW scout that self buffs DPS like crazy will give u harder hitting DA procs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: OH and i almost forgot - 1h rogues cant use the grinning dirk of horror, which crits for like 2k on raids (and no 1H'ers do). With that in the offhand, the DW scouts are gonna get crazy amounts of damage from it since the other weapon is going to trigger its DAs, making its 4sec delay not mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anymore.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 AM</span>