Illusionists and the MT Group in Raids

[Bawang]

<DIV>I offer this story not to brag but as something to consider for  those who think we bring little to a raid.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it happens, my guild is the largest guild on my server.  Ever since I came of raiding age they started to put me in the MT group.  I could tell other mages were a little envious because they tried to get me kicked out of it but they were not listened to - (yes, you know who YOU are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night we were doing labs for relic armor drops (lost every random <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and it occurred to the raid leader that he'd change the usual order and he took me out of the MT group.  Wouldn't you know the very next fight (3 epics at once) we wiped because the healers in MT group ran out of power.  At this point those healers DEMANDED that I be put back in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I guess one moral to this story is "never underestimate your value as a mana-battery."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bawango - 70 illusionist - Crushbone</DIV> <DIV>Sleep Disorder</DIV>

[WAPCE]

Do you guys not have a Dirge or a Coercer? Don't get me wrong, being in the MT group is tons of fun, but there are a lot better options out there for power regen that also include MT-specific buffs.

[Pins]

<DIV>If your guild has a Dirge and/or a Coercer and you're in the MT group, it's time to let your guild know that they shouldn't be putting you in the MT group.</DIV>

[Bawang]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WAPCE wrote:<BR>Do you guys not have a Dirge or a Coercer? Don't get me wrong, being in the MT group is tons of fun, but there are a lot better options out there for power regen that also include MT-specific buffs.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No Coercer or Dirge in my guild.  At least not high enough to raid.

[trenor]

<DIV>I can't say that we should have a spot in the mt grp in raids cause id be lying.  But good for you!  Most use a dirge cause they provide nearly same regen and percussion of stone plus all of us can dump x raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fiz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dravendar]

<blockquote><hr>trenor wrote:<div>...Most use a dirge cause they provide nearly same regen...</div><div>Fiz</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Where did this impression come from?  There is no way a dirge even comes close to matching our mana regen.  Without drudging up the numbers, we have:Savante Mana Cloak Devitalizing GazeMana Flowon top of our Epiphany which if IIRC is only several points shy of a dirge's regen song.   Unless you're desperately trying to beat a slacking wizard/warlock on the parse list, your group should notice a TREMENDOUS increase in mana regen.  Am I missing something here about bards?  Fiz..you're not the only one to say this...<div></div>

[Belizarius]

<P>Well, Mana Flow is raid wide anyway, so not an issue.</P> <P>Mana Cloak is a reactive, so unless you are  using a Vessel of Fyr'un it probably won't proc, and will be MT only.</P> <P>Savante and Dev Gaze are the main ones they will miss.</P> <P>But the real point I think, is that a Dirge will generally provide <EM>enough</EM> power regen for the group, and they don't have to lift a finger to do it.</P>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belizarius wrote:<BR> <P>Well, Mana Flow is raid wide anyway, so not an issue.</P> <P>Mana Cloak is a reactive, so unless you are  using a Vessel of Fyr'un it probably won't proc, and will be MT only.</P> <P>Savante and Dev Gaze are the main ones they will miss.</P> <P>But the real point I think, is that a Dirge will generally provide <EM>enough</EM> power regen for the group, and they don't have to lift a finger to do it.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>However, a Dirge and a Coercer buffs a lot better and thus an Illusionist is useless.

[KaltenAlTh]

<DIV>My guild uses is Guardian, Summoner, Coercer +3 healers for that fight type.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sometimes we swap in a dirge for one of the healers or the Summoner but under no conditions when a Dirge or a Coercer are on the raid do I make it up to the MT group.  Rightfully so, they are better for MT groups.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Templar + Mystic + Coercer + Dirge</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ull always find those 4 in our MT groups. Only reason being, we dont have any defilers anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Barobra]

Unfortunatley it makes sense not to put an illusionist in MT group in most cases if you have bards.

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> Unfortunatley it makes sense not to put an illusionist in MT group in most cases if you have bards.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i used to say the same thing BUT....</P> <P>if u have only an illu and a troub at a raid, ur WAY better off putting the illu in the MT group than the troub. The reason for that? Deaggro song for another group =) Plus, if the illu took those AAs, he could be giving a nice crit heal chance to the healers there - even more than a troub with DKTM.</P>

[Barobra]

<DIV>I actually maxed out heal crits for that reason ATM (still have a respec). But have not been put in MT group because of it. Usually the MT/Raid leader in my guild at least wants to max out the buffs as much as possible. And the bards have some nice buffs. Its a toss up. Usually though power regen isint needed most of the time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it comes down to buffs really or anything else you can provide. If you ask me the heal crits is the ONLY reason you really put an illusionist in the MT group. Haste? ya right....spellshield? uh huh.... so whats left after those? int/wis + max power increase/resists? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And how useful is the deagro really? I mean most classes can handle themselves quite well and if they actually know their class can keep agro from happening.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Logically when you put it all on paper it just makes more sense to me at least to have a bard in MT group. I mean I agree the deagro is nice....and so is that spell the troubs have that make you proc 100%. But MT group is key in this game and some encounters require you to have a very solid MT group in order to survive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> Unfortunatley it makes sense not to put an illusionist in MT group in most cases if you have bards.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i used to say the same thing BUT....</P> <P>if u have only an illu and a troub at a raid, ur WAY better off putting the illu in the MT group than the troub. The reason for that? Deaggro song for another group =) Plus, if the illu took those AAs, he could be giving a nice crit heal chance to the healers there - even more than a troub with DKTM.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree, that and troubador's give defense, what fighter isn't already capped on defense?

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>And how useful is the deagro really? I mean most classes can handle themselves quite well and if they actually know their class can keep agro from happening.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Its not about stopping other classes from stealing aggro...of course they can stop themselves from stealing aggro. Its about allowing them to go all out and doing some real DPS.

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>And how useful is the deagro really? I mean most classes can handle themselves quite well and if they actually know their class can keep agro from happening.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Its not about stopping other classes from stealing aggro...of course they can stop themselves from stealing aggro. Its about allowing them to go all out and doing some real DPS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Right..... thats what I meant in that sentence. Most classes have deagro...guess what alot of people dont have use them.<BR><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:29 AM</span>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Well heres the thing.....we have a brigand in the guild who we ALWAYS put in the caster group....which is usually troub+illu+wizzie+warlock+fury+brigand......reason for that? well, simply, he does almost 2k DPS in this group without pulling aggro. And chances are, hes got amazing reflexes up (12% aggro increase, so that hes immune to AE). Even with using evade every time its up, along with the deaggro+sneak ability, and the master deaggro proc buff, and a deaggro poison, that DPS will still pull him aggro without a troub, EVEN if the MT has a dirge and coercer. Of course its not the same with all classes. Brigands are especially known to have aggro problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets assume that theres only a troub and illu in the raid, would u prefer that brigand, along with 4 other DPS classes (assuming theres a healer there) to drop their DPS to 800 so that the tank can have those few extra points of defense, or would u give them the troub and get the mob killed quicker so healers dont need to spend as much mana? Not to mention, faster kills = less memwipes, less AEs to joust, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, the only thing a troub has for the MT that we dont is +defense. We actually give more haste than them, our spell reflect is better, and our mana regen is better.</DIV>

[Barobra]

Basically your argument is since there is no buddy else better to put in MT we might as well stick the Illusionist there. What if a raid has 4 bards? :smileyhappy:

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well heres the thing.....we have a brigand in the guild who we ALWAYS put in the caster group....which is usually troub+illu+wizzie+warlock+fury+brigand......reason for that? well, simply, he does almost 2k DPS in this group without pulling aggro. And chances are, hes got amazing reflexes up (12% aggro increase, so that hes immune to AE). Even with using evade every time its up, along with the deaggro+sneak ability, and the master deaggro proc buff, and a deaggro poison, that DPS will still pull him aggro without a troub, EVEN if the MT has a dirge and coercer. Of course its not the same with all classes. Brigands are especially known to have aggro problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets assume that theres only a troub and illu in the raid, would u prefer that brigand, along with 4 other DPS classes (assuming theres a healer there) to drop their DPS to 800 so that the tank can have those few extra points of defense, or would u give them the troub and get the mob killed quicker so healers dont need to spend as much mana? Not to mention, faster kills = less memwipes, less AEs to joust, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, the only thing a troub has for the MT that we dont is +defense. We actually give more haste than them, our spell reflect is better, and our mana regen is better.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>He puts out 2,000 DPS in that group because he gets haste from you and the troubador, a proc from the wizard, another proc from the warlock, and the dps/haste proc from the fury.  Plus I bet he's using Wurmslayer 2Her(besides the point, but that's why he's doing 2,000).  Caster groups are baaaad, a lot more DPS is possible from balanced/hybrid groups is possible, which is exactly what you're showing there btw <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Oh, and if a raid has 4 bards, then the answer is simple, put the bard there, but it was if there was only 1 Illusionist and 1 Troubador, then the Illusionist should be in the MT group.</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>yeh i just call it the caster group cuz its got alot more casters than the others and its really built around them, cuz all the right caster buffs are there, along with a "channel class" for each one of their melee procs/buffs......i got into the habit of doing it back when we could use that havoc proc bug, and id ALWAYS make sure i had a bruiser in the group to cast it on =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but yeh dood, those are the reasons hes doing 2k DPS, and no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hes using the wurmslayer =) but even without a troub hed still be doing that same DPS....or at least until he died.....which is my point =)</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 AM</span>

[Zygwen]

I'm a Swash in the same guild as DaMutation and I can tell you that our brigand definately has agro issues. I can put out more dps than he can without grabbing agro. Not only that, I don't even need my deagro poison when out dpsing him unless our tank is slacking and forgets to taunt. I can also tell you that I can put out almost as much dps using Frostwrath as I can with Wyrmslayer with my spike damage being actualy higher with Frostwrath due to lower delay. So don't go around blaming things on Wyrmslayer because it really isn't as uber as people think. <div></div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

My 2c MT group: Dirge > Coercer >  Illusionist > Troubador Dirge = Stoneskin, Parry Buff, MT hate gain buff, adequate power Coercer =  Best power, Crit heal increses (AA lines are shared don't forget), Hate gain buff, Agi? buff Troubador hate reduction buff is better used in dps groups to let them go harder, preferably with mages, as scouts have decent deaggro tools. For mobs where the MT can do without a buff class, Dirge/Coercer/Templar/Warden/Defiler/MT would be an impressive hate lock down and power combo. Otherwise the coercer doesn't get in. <div></div>