Illusionists Crowd Control Ability buffed, or nerfed?

[Pins]

<DIV>So, I was thinking hey they won't nerf our ability to Crowd Control, right?  I'm sure EVERYBODY was thinking that, but guess what, hello nerfs to us.  Just to show you guys what the changes entailed, I updated my test client to get some screenshots of the changes, and I was VERY displeased.  This is not about the damage change, this is about our "core" ability being totally changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before pictures will be on the left, after pictures will be on the right.</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Dazzling%20Array.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Dazzling%20Array2.JPG"> <BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Drain%20Thought.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Drain%20Thought2.JPG"><BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Empty%20Mind.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Empty%20Mind3.JPG"><BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Lockdown.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Lockdown2.JPG"><BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Lustrous%20Regalia.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Lustrous%20Regalia2.JPG"> <BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Solar%20Shower.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Solar%20Shower2.JPG"><BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Forsake%20Will.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Forsake%20Will2.JPG"><BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Tumor3.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Tumor2.JPG"> <BR><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Phantasmal%20Resplendance.JPG"><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Phantasmal%20Resplendance2.JPG"></DIV> <DIV>I am apalled at these changes. I thought this was change other classes, and leave the enchanter alone patch. But no, this is nerf enchanters as much as every other class too. What is wrong with this? Everything.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Pinski on <SPAN class=date_text>05-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:25 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 AM</span>

[Pins]

Wait a second, I just noticed something else.  No longer can you debuff a mez'd mob.  Breaks when target receives hostile ACTION, not when target takes damage.  Well blow me down and say BIGGER nerf than I thought.

[WAPCE]

At least no one can say they're nerfing everyone else to make Enchanters useful, they even killed our sub-par nuke. Not much resisting of Disappointment today...

[Barobra]

<DIV>I always hate how you come across in your posts. But I appreciate the time you took to show the differences here especially with the pics. Basically they are reducing our DPS and some utility as a whole and adding the ability to effect raid targets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now a couple things about this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Why does empty mind not effect epic targets? It seems as if only regalia will work? So thats a total duration of 6 seconds. Kind of pointless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Lockdown is actually a more viable option then mez. Do other classes have the ability to root epics? Basically it lasts for 8 seconds against epics and can be cast on mob again in 24 seconds. This is still quite low.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Forsake will - 2.6 second duration against epics. Pointless as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Drain thought - stifle duration 4.6 seconds against epics</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Solar shower - stifle duration 4 seconds against epics</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So assuming they split the immunities you can keep a mob mezzed/stunned/rooted for probably 16 seconds. With immunities going on I assume you can't start over for another 30 seconds or so. Would have to do the math but don't have time right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Max stifle ability of 4.6 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV>I really want to know if any of the pvp durations were shortened as aoe mez already had a very short duration.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  A vision blurr added to our (already excellent) root?  That's very nice.  I wonder if it lasts the full duration of the root?  If so, that's going to be really rude in pvp.   ^ ^</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  The dd/mez got changed to 1.5s cast time and is now a pacify.  AWESOME.  This spell went from useless as anything other than a 3rd rate dd, to being something I'll use in every fight vs. players.  Great great changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Hey!  They changed our aoe stun from 1.0s cast time to 2.0.  QQ!  I really enjoyed the fast casting of it, and often used it as an opener in pvp because I could run up and cast it fast and the immunity timer it set was short, or something to cast back at another caster who's casted on me first to regain initiative.  ><</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, it did make<STRONG> no sense</STRONG> that the aoe stun, which lasts about the same as the single in pvp, would also cast at 50% the speed.  I'd like to see the single stun be 1.0s casting then, but really, it's not worth bishing and crying about as long as everyone else's aoe stun is 2.0 or slower.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, the changes seem very nice for a pvp server.  Sorry if these changes aren't good for raiding tho. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm very curious though what the lvl 40 pb aoe mez looks like now?  I'm very much hoping it gets turned into a pb aoe fear, snare, or even a pacify/hate debuff--3 mezzes is plenty, and I'd much prefer another immunity timer to play with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:57 AM</span>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>I always hate how you come across in your posts. But I appreciate the time you took to show the differences here especially with the pics. Basically they are reducing our DPS and some utility as a whole and adding the ability to effect raid targets.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not everyone raids, or is of level to raid yet. For them, these are nerfs with little given in return

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>I always hate how you come across in your posts. But I appreciate the time you took to show the differences here especially with the pics. Basically they are reducing our DPS and some utility as a whole and adding the ability to effect raid targets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now a couple things about this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Why does empty mind not effect epic targets? It seems as if only regalia will work? So thats a total duration of 6 seconds. Kind of pointless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Lockdown is actually a more viable option then mez. Do other classes have the ability to root epics? Basically it lasts for 8 seconds against epics and can be cast on mob again in 24 seconds. This is still quite low.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Forsake will - 2.6 second duration against epics. Pointless as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Drain thought - stifle duration 4.6 seconds against epics</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Solar shower - stifle duration 4 seconds against epics</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So assuming they split the immunities you can keep a mob mezzed/stunned/rooted for probably 16 seconds. With immunities going on I assume you can't start over for another 30 seconds or so. Would have to do the math but don't have time right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Max stifle ability of 4.6 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yah, I come off as an arrogant [Removed for Content], but that's because after having been through all this crap and hoping for changes to occur, I see NOTHING happening, and then when it does, it ends up we get nerfed in the process.  Plus after all of the null responses on our class, it's obvious that the more [Removed for Content] off we sound, the more likely we will get changed.  Look at wizard before LU6(they were totally crap), they complained and COMPLAINED loudly, and got fixed, we complained at the same time, then we got ignored for months.  LU13 came, we were useful with our stifles vs. epics HOORAY, then nerfed in LU14, then around LU16 we got hit again.  Then we were smooth sailing for  a few months, then we were told of the great thing coming to us, the Enchanter RAID revamp, we were pleased to hear we were being looked into, then nothing occured, 3 months later in LU19 we were sort of nerfed, but it wasn't that big a deal, then we continued on without getting responses, then LU23 came, another nerf, and well they mention LU24 is going to be, the great enchanter raid revamp, among other things, looking at the test notes look good(although they admit, they are wrong), but then looking at the spells got me thinking, wow, this isn't just a raid revamp, this is a nerf.</P> <P>1) Because as said, the patch notes are wrong, and that is what is showing up on test<BR>2) Look at the bottom, Does not affect epics, which means no rooting epics.<BR>3) Notice the nerf in our heroic ability there too? Yah.<BR>4) Pretty much<BR>5) Now, as I keep on saying, does this mean the stifle lasts for 4s, or does this mean the whole spell lasts for 4s, because if the whole spell lasts for 4s, that's a large majority of damage we will be missing out on.  Instead of doing 2891-3535 with M1, we will be doing 1239-1515 against epic mobs, seems kinda crappy doesn't it?</P> <P>Also you forgot Tumor our new pacify/daze spell as well.  Which adds another 4.6s of ability to do stuff to epic mobs.  But god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], reduced damage and increased recast on a spell that already did very little damage?</P> <P>To: melmoth</P> <P>The blur drops along with the stifle when targets receive damage, and it only lasts 4.0s if the target doesn't get damaged, another "small" nerf there.  Though it's kinda funny, they add all the new "epic" stuff to all mes/stun/stifle spells, and the root says 24s of immunity to epics on the breakable stifle, yet it's only 4.0s duration which seems kinda, odd <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Thats a very serious nerf in every single spell so far</DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GPA_Shipwreck wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>I always hate how you come across in your posts. But I appreciate the time you took to show the differences here especially with the pics. Basically they are reducing our DPS and some utility as a whole and adding the ability to effect raid targets.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not everyone raids, or is of level to raid yet. For them, these are nerfs with little given in return<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nah, it's just me, and I do raid a lot, but I'm still very upset about these changes <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zebsen]

<DIV>Thx for the pics.  A few things:</DIV> <DIV>Please tell me that the difference in damage is because you aren't int capped on test server.  I assume this is the case, more for sanity purposes than anything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it me or every expansion do they decrease the duration of stun/stiffle spells?  So the max duration never really increases in the long run, except for right after the release of the expansions.  Then they nerf the lower level versions of the same spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I noticed out stiffles came through without duration reductions, while our stuns/mezzes got reductions.  Has anyone checked coercers to see if their stuns got hit?  I'm wondering if this is how they are differentiating illusionist/coercers or if they just wanted to hit stuns that much harder because they are more incapacitating.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has anyone tried these yet?  My questions are:</DIV> <DIV>-when does the immunity timer start?  From when the spell lands (when solar shower lands), when it stops effecting the epic (3 secs into solar shower), or when the spell was supposed to end (12 seconds into solar shower).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-what happens when we try to cast a spell that it's immune to?  I'm hoping it will let us cast the spell without the effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Is there some way to look at your spell bar and determine if your stuns/stiffles are going to land (immunity timer) or are we going to have to guess?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm kicking myself for not buying a lockdown master for 2 plat recently too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zebsen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pins]

Yah, I wasn't INT capped, like I said a the start, ignore the damage aspect which is mainly because of the INT cap issue <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  And I'll say again, Lockdown will not affect epics.  No idea about the rest :

[Zebsen]

<P>I missed the ignore the damage part.  Thanks for pointing that out for the visually challenged.  Lockdown is screwy because it lists the decreased duration and immunity and such on epics, like it will work, then says it doesn't effect epics below that.  Either one or the other needs to be removed.  My guess is that you are correct and that it won't effect epics, period.</P> <P>Hopefully our coercer brethren fared better than us, and/or this doesn't go live as is.</P> <P>I understand that they are balancing stun/stiffles in the big picture.  But stunning/stifling an epic for 4 seconds every 30-45 isn't worth the tradeoff on our non-epic decreased durations.  At best, it will help decrease epic mob DPS a hair, and theoritically if well timed it could save the tank.  That's probably optomistic.  At worst, it may screw up AOE timers and such and actually hurt a raid.  Hopefully this doesn't happen.</P> <P>I'd personally be for giving us 2/3 the duration of the spell landing and having the spell not recastable for 6 times the regular duration.  This would let you time your stun/stiffle if the tank was in bad shape and have it last long enough to be meaningful.  For the ultra raiders, you've already pointed out how pointless this is because you have already developed strategies without using the stun/stiffle abilities to win, and it's more about using color shower for DPS than anything.</P> <P>Oh well.  My thoughts.  Thanks again for posting.</P> <P>Zebsen</P>

[Melmoth1820]

<P>The blur drops along with the stifle when targets receive damage, and it only lasts 4.0s if the target doesn't get damaged, another "small" nerf there.  Though it's kinda funny, they add all the new "epic" stuff to all mes/stun/stifle spells, and the root says 24s of immunity to epics on the breakable stifle, yet it's only 4.0s duration which seems kinda, odd</P> <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Argh, the duration of the root stifle is going to be 4s now, not 7s?  And it's breakable now?</P> <P>I didn't notice that. >< >< ><</P> <P>That makes me sad since I often used my root just for the stifle when my real one was down.  Maybe I won't care much when I'm 50 and have color shower tho. </P><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 AM</span>

[zit]

<P>The change on Tumor secondary effect from a possible mez to a fix dazzle is the only thing positive i can find.</P> <P> </P> <P>But the change on the AE stun alone is more than i can bear not to mention all other minor *fixes*.</P> <P>account chanceled. </P>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>1) Because as said, the patch notes are wrong, and that is what is showing up on test<BR><STRONG>2) Look at the bottom, Does not affect epics, which means no rooting epics.</STRONG><BR>3) Notice the nerf in our heroic ability there too? Yah.<BR>4) Pretty much<BR>5) Now, as I keep on saying, does this mean the stifle lasts for 4s, or does this mean the whole spell lasts for 4s, because if the whole spell lasts for 4s, that's a large majority of damage we will be missing out on.  Instead of doing 2891-3535 with M1, we will be doing 1239-1515 against epic mobs, seems kinda crappy doesn't it?</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Also you forgot Tumor our new pacify/daze spell as well.  Which adds another 4.6s of ability to do stuff to epic mobs.  But god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], reduced damage and increased recast on a spell that already did very little damage?</P> <P>To: melmoth</P> <P>The blur drops along with the stifle when targets receive damage, and it only lasts 4.0s if the target doesn't get damaged, another "small" nerf there.  Though it's kinda funny, they add all the new "epic" stuff to all mes/stun/stifle spells, and the root says 24s of immunity to epics on the breakable stifle, yet it's only 4.0s duration which seems kinda, odd <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok about the root (sorry had to clip it since it was getting too long seems me and you type way too much already). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Lockdown2.JPG"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(sorry had to steal your link too) This is whats confusing, it states does not effect epic targets on the bottom. Yet, its duration is reduced by 66.7% against Epic targets AND it gains a 24 second immunity to its effects. Seems kind of redundant. The only thing that doesn't say "If target is not Epic or does not affect epic targets" is the blurs vision. So is the reduced against epic and immunity for the blur? Now granted we can't see the whole pic so I maybe missing something here. What am I missing?<BR></DIV>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZebsenChanter wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-what happens when we try to cast a spell that it's immune to?  I'm hoping it will let us cast the spell without the effect.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Great question. No more solar shower after immune? I hope not.<BR>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote: <div></div> <blockquote><hr>ZebsenChanter wrote: <div> </div><div>-what happens when we try to cast a spell that it's immune to? I'm hoping it will let us cast the spell without the effect.</div><div><hr></div></blockquote>Great question. No more solar shower after immune? I hope not. <hr></blockquote> I would imagine it would continue to work the way it does now, but this also means that the useless power drains on our single-target stun and stifle are going to let you cast and you won't be able to tell whether they'll stick until they hit (unless you're really good with tracking immunity time).<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 PM</span>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WAPCE wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZebsenChanter wrote: <DIV>-what happens when we try to cast a spell that it's immune to? I'm hoping it will let us cast the spell without the effect.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Great question. No more solar shower after immune? I hope not. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would imagine it would continue to work the way it does now, but this also means that the useless power drains on our single-target stun and stifle are going to let you cast and you won't be able to tell whether they'll stick until they hit (unless you're really good with tracking immunity time). <P>Message Edited by WAPCE on <SPAN class=date_text>05-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:29 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Heh ya I kind of hated that too. Like in HOF or whatever kind of situation your in where the mob is immune, you cast stun and it LETS you cast stun but the only thing really happening is its doing the useless power drain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good point I think it will work this way as well. I guess you just have to pay attention and try to pick out between the other 500 messages popping above the epic target that immune message...</DIV>

[Jvaloth]

<P>SOE has no idea what they are doing. </P> <P> </P> <P>Unbelievable.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Zebsen]

<P>As for the spell recast notification, I was hoping for something like the spell icon changing color when the stun/stiffle wore off.  Similar to what it does now on recast timers, but something a little different to let us know that the full effect would work.  Either that or something like a countdown timer would appear on the screen (like it does for some quests).  Either way, this is probably not going to happen.  The timer idea would get crazy on stunning, stifling, and mezzing multiple mobs and probably wouldn't be practical.</P> <P>If you look at solar shower, it's 4 seconds of stifling and 36 seconds of immunity.  The recast is 40 seconds.  So, in theory, if the immunity timer starts either when the spell lands or when the effect wears off, the recast timer for the spell will basically be the recast timer for the stifle.  To the camp that says nothing will change with this update, and our role will still be T3 DPS, I am starting to agree.  The duration of the stun/stifle probably isn't long enough for me to give up my DPS and wait for the opportune time to cast it.  Most people are just going to cast solar shower every time the recast timer for the spell is up.</P> <P>Someone should start parsing the mobs now and determine if we can see a reduction in their DPS before and after this change. </P> <P>Zebsen</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>1) Because as said, the patch notes are wrong, and that is what is showing up on test<BR><STRONG>2) Look at the bottom, Does not affect epics, which means no rooting epics.</STRONG><BR>3) Notice the nerf in our heroic ability there too? Yah.<BR>4) Pretty much<BR>5) Now, as I keep on saying, does this mean the stifle lasts for 4s, or does this mean the whole spell lasts for 4s, because if the whole spell lasts for 4s, that's a large majority of damage we will be missing out on.  Instead of doing 2891-3535 with M1, we will be doing 1239-1515 against epic mobs, seems kinda crappy doesn't it?</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Also you forgot Tumor our new pacify/daze spell as well.  Which adds another 4.6s of ability to do stuff to epic mobs.  But god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], reduced damage and increased recast on a spell that already did very little damage?</P> <P>To: melmoth</P> <P>The blur drops along with the stifle when targets receive damage, and it only lasts 4.0s if the target doesn't get damaged, another "small" nerf there.  Though it's kinda funny, they add all the new "epic" stuff to all mes/stun/stifle spells, and the root says 24s of immunity to epics on the breakable stifle, yet it's only 4.0s duration which seems kinda, odd <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok about the root (sorry had to clip it since it was getting too long seems me and you type way too much already). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(sorry had to steal your link too) This is whats confusing, it states does not effect epic targets on the bottom. Yet, its duration is reduced by 66.7% against Epic targets AND it gains a 24 second immunity to its effects. Seems kind of redundant. The only thing that doesn't say "If target is not Epic or does not affect epic targets" is the blurs vision. So is the reduced against epic and immunity for the blur? Now granted we can't see the whole pic so I maybe missing something here. What am I missing?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's because the stifle thinks it can cast itself on epic, however the initial root part, cannot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Stealth Status]

<div></div>Ill join in.Hey guys.My view of this is very very very bad.This is all [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing completely worthless crap. Nerf is understatement, is is a class killer.... plain and simpleThe thing is... every other class can do what we do, but also does really raid relevant stuff. There is no way we should be on a raid to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing offer this crap crap t5 damage (FREAKING SOLAR SHOWER BACK DOWN TO COLOR SHOWERS DAMAGE!!! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!)The devs are not dumb, they must be trying to kill the class, by way of inciting betrayals.I mean all these 3 second stifles and stuns and silences.... who gives a fv<k?? I mean they all get the resistance timers...... and you KNOW we aren't gonna be picked to use them up. The coercers will be , or the bards, or the wizrads. On all those things when it mentions the immunities... it says to THIS EFFECT. That means it is referring to the generic "Stifle" or "Stun" which means you use it... and then its no good for every single class in your raid, including you.So basically Solar shower is irrelevant if you dare use drain thought, or daz array irrelevant if you cast Foresake will. So they cut our total raid spell cool down to about 4 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing terrible spells (including the super [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing weak [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Synergism that should proc 33% still since that is its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing natural nature, and not have to follow the new proc rules).... THat offer tier 2 damage. It is really really bad.Wizard roots are better then ours, so lock mind is irrelevant.Sound to me like the devs got all excited over an idea that wasn't thought through at all.I mean it really is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] unless your goal is to end Illusionsists and just have "Enchanters" named coercers.<font size="5">Gigas Legacy The Dedicated<Second Dawn> Najena.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Stealth Status on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 PM</span>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stealth Status wrote:<BR>Ill join in.<BR><BR>Hey guys.<BR><BR>My view of this is very very very bad.<BR><BR>This is all [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing completely worthless crap. Nerf is understatement, is is a class killer.... plain and simple<BR><BR>The thing is... every other class can do what we do, but also does really raid relevant stuff. There is no way we should be on a raid to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing offer this crap crap t5 damage (FREAKING SOLAR SHOWER BACK DOWN TO COLOR SHOWERS DAMAGE!!! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!)<BR><BR>The devs are not dumb, they must be trying to kill the class, by way of inciting betrayals.<BR><BR>I mean all these 3 second stifles and stuns and silences.... who gives a fv<k?? I mean they all get the resistance timers...... and you KNOW we aren't gonna be picked to use them up. The coercers will be , or the bards, or the wizrads. On all those things when it mentions the immunities... it says to THIS EFFECT. That means it is referring to the generic "Stifle" or "Stun" which means you use it... and then its no good for every single class in your raid, including you.<BR><BR>So basically Solar shower is irrelevant if you dare use drain thought, or daz array irrelevant if you cast Foresake will. So they cut our total raid spell cool down to about 4 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing terrible spells (including the super [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing weak [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Synergism that should proc 33% still since that is its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing natural nature, and not have to follow the new proc rules).... THat offer tier 2 damage. It is really really bad.<BR><BR>Wizard roots are better then ours, so lock mind is irrelevant.<BR><BR>Sound to me like the devs got all excited over an idea that wasn't thought through at all.<BR><BR>I mean it really is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] unless your goal is to end Illusionsists and just have "Enchanters" named coercers.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I just wanted to say you don't read the posts at all do you?  THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT DAMAGE.  THE DAMAGE VALUES ARE WRONG AND INCORRECT.  This post is about crowd control ability, NOT DAMAGE.  My god you are as bad as everybody thought before, and now know.

[Stealth Status]

Nah, I read it, I just misunderstood you. I thought you meant you just weren't getting into talking about the damage, when you said this post is not about damage.yeah I missed the part that said they were wrong, Kill me.you don't even know me. and who the heck are you?but still, as I said, the Cc abilities willb e irrelevant.<div></div>

[Swedemon]

<DIV>Dude, whats up with the nerfed damage?? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Stealth Status]

ROFL<div></div>

[eland]

<P>It's hard to say whether it's a nerf or a boost to our control skills just by looking at the values.  It's safe to say that in some situations where we were already very powerful, such as small groups, it looks reduced.  As a whole, though, context will need to be considered before I can pass judgment.  For example, if the heroic stun immunities are removed, then it'll be an obvious boost in those areas.  Combine that with an increased scarcity of control skills in general, and it's possible that the overall value of the illusionist will increase in full group situations.</P> <P>I'll wait until I see the overall effect of the changes before passing judgment, but at least they're acknowledging the marginalization of our core skills in some situations, and are doing something.  It may not end up being a solution, but it's more than we've seen in a while.</P>

[Manyak]

more than weve seen in a while? i hope u were being sarcastic, cuz i cant see any of this as any kind of improvement. Id prefer to have more damage from solar shower than to be able to mezz an epic for 6 seconds. sure its nice to be ABLE to use this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on epics, but WHAT FOR. until now, we havent had any problems killing epics the way [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is now, so why would i care for these changes? dont get me wrong, im happe we can, but i dont think id be willing to pay this price for it. doesnt make anything easier at all. i can only think of ONE encounter where these changes are gonna help. just ONE, in the entire game. on everything else, were nerfed to (*&@#$.<p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 PM</span>

[Belizarius]

<P>Well, I can understand them not getting the Epic control spell stuff *right* in our view.  It's not an easy area to try to fix.  Might not be that great in current form, but we don't lose anything there, they are giving us something to try out, they might even listen to our feedback.</P> <P>The nerfing of all our control spells in non-raid situations however, has me failing to resist disappointment.</P> <P>They just nerfed our DPS in <STRONG><EM>all</EM> </STRONG>situations, and now in exchange for some very questionable raid utility they are also nerfing our control in groups.  Welcome to gimpsville.</P>

[Kurg]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Well from my point of view being a "almost-non-raider" (once a month or so) these changes are a hudge nerf!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Lowered resistabilities, lowered durations, longer recast timers, longer recovery timers ... ~sigh~</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Normally I dont solo. I mostly play in groups from 4 - 6 members. The bonus I bring to a group is gettin even lower than it is  :smileysad: and right now I just find groups because my wife plays a Templar who is always wanted ...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I really think, if these changes goes live, I ll send my Chanter in retirement :smileysad: ... sad thing ... I loved him</FONT></P>

[Zebsen]

<DIV>Hey, something I thought about - no one has commented on our one brand new KoS phase spell and whether it will work on epics or not.  I know this is something that everyone everyone overlooked somehow.  I'm not sure how...  :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, I couldn't resist a quick jab at this spell in case a dev took a wrong turn into here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the comments about our stunning ability reduced on heroics, yes this looks like it's going to happen.  The only thing I'll add is that everyone is supposed to be getting nerfed here, so by comparison we might still be viable in this area.  It's my personal opinion that stun makes heroics too easy, if it lands.  This may be best overall for the game, but it's going to be tough to get nerfed again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zebsen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>ZebsenChanter wrote:<DIV>Hey, something I thought about - no one has commented on our one brand new KoS phase spell and whether it will work on epics or not.  I know this is something that everyone everyone overlooked somehow.  I'm not sure how...  :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, I couldn't resist a quick jab at this spell in case a dev took a wrong turn into here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the comments about our stunning ability reduced on heroics, yes this looks like it's going to happen.  The only thing I'll add is that everyone is supposed to be getting nerfed here, so by comparison we might still be viable in this area.  It's my personal opinion that stun makes heroics too easy, if it lands.  This may be best overall for the game, but it's going to be tough to get nerfed again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zebsen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote> I actually looked at all the spells to see if anything from level 57 to 70 was changed, Phase was still the same <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also, Lockeye said they will be nerfing non-enchanter abilities to make enchanter abilities "useful", yet they ended up nerfing ours too, go figure.

[Barobra]

<DIV>I think they need to let us mez for the full duration and then have an immunity.</DIV>

[dpizzle4]

Well,I knew this was gonna happen.. when the first post happened and SOE left it broad about what they were gonna do, I got excited for a second and actually thought that they might do it right and actually think about what they were gonna do before just crushing the class.. I just wish they wouldnt put these great messages up like "Combat Revamp" or "Crowd Control Revamp" and then totally lie with what they are doing.. Really poor job SOE i thought u were gonna make us worthwhile on raids, but just made us less useful outside raids and increased our spell use on raids by like 2 or 3 buttons but with almost NO increase in usefullness and basically made us waste AD3s and M1s and M2s on some really great useless spells now... Man i used to love that AOE stun, cant count how many times it saved my group...Darkillusion Chronleaves aka Dankronic ChronleavesDisheartened Illusionist of KithicorProud Member of Spite<div></div>

[Lolthinae]

<P>We've seen it before - what's on test getting completely changed within 24 of hours of going live (Yay! for untested changes), let's just hope this will happen again.</P> <P>I also hope they have some good chanters on test, of all levels and play styles, doing all kind of content, incl. high-end raiding. Mine is only lvl 15 so there is little I can contribute.</P> <P>/crosses fingers</P>

[Sector11]

<div></div><font size="2">I think elandur got closest to hitting the nail on the head when writing:</font><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%"><font size="2">It's hard to say whether it's a nerf or a boost to our control skills just by looking at the values.  It's safe to say that in some situations where we were already very powerful, such as small groups, it looks reduced.  <b>As a whole, though, context will need to be considered</b> before I can pass judgment.  For example, if the heroic stun immunities are removed, then it'll be an obvious boost in those areas.  <b>Combine that with an increased scarcity of control skills in general, and it's possible that the overall value of the illusionist will increase in full group situations.</b></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font size="2">(Highlighted added for emphasis)</font></blockquote><font size="2">Those statement got me thinking again about my short conversation with Lockeye at Fan Faire, and I recall one point that I had glossed over before. At that point, he had mentioned that even enchanters would affected by the revamp, and would likely come out of the process in a lesser state than we were before - but he also said that we would be the best in the new pecking order.I have to admit that I am in line with elandur's way of thinking - yes, strictly in comparison with where we stand now, our abilities are being diminished. In context of overall gameplay after LU24, though, we'll be "king of the hill", so to speak. Of course we'll have to adjust - as will everyone else - but I see these changes making the game more challenging (not game-breaking)... and I for one consider that a good thing.Zobek69 IllusionistGuk</font><div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Sector11 wrote:<div></div><font size="2">I think elandur got closest to hitting the nail on the head when writing:</font><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%"><font size="2">It's hard to say whether it's a nerf or a boost to our control skills just by looking at the values.  It's safe to say that in some situations where we were already very powerful, such as small groups, it looks reduced.  <b>As a whole, though, context will need to be considered</b> before I can pass judgment.  For example, if the heroic stun immunities are removed, then it'll be an obvious boost in those areas.  <b>Combine that with an increased scarcity of control skills in general, and it's possible that the overall value of the illusionist will increase in full group situations.</b></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font size="2">(Highlighted added for emphasis)</font></blockquote><font size="2">Those statement got me thinking again about my short conversation with Lockeye at Fan Faire, and I recall one point that I had glossed over before. At that point, he had mentioned that even enchanters would affected by the revamp, and would likely come out of the process in a lesser state than we were before - but he also said that we would be the best in the new pecking order.I have to admit that I am in line with elandur's way of thinking - yes, strictly in comparison with where we stand now, our abilities are being diminished. In context of overall gameplay after LU24, though, we'll be "king of the hill", so to speak. Of course we'll have to adjust - as will everyone else - but I see these changes making the game more challenging (not game-breaking)... and I for one consider that a good thing.Zobek69 IllusionistGuk</font><div></div><hr></blockquote> If this was the case, then why did Lockeye say the following: <DIV>Changes: Control durations or reuse timers are generally lowered across all non-enchanter classes, and are better balanced across subclass pairs than before. Some Stun effects have been replaced with Stifles and Dazes which are not used as often and do not completely incapacitate an enemy. An Enchanter’s ability to control will have more utility in group settings than it did before.</DIV> <DIV>Seems I dunno, kinda crappy of him to say that, and then change us anyway.

[eland]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> more than weve seen in a while? i hope u were being sarcastic, cuz i cant see any of this as any kind of improvement. Id prefer to have more damage from solar shower than to be able to mezz an epic for 6 seconds. sure its nice to be ABLE to use this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on epics, but WHAT FOR. until now, we havent had any problems killing epics the way [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is now, so why would i care for these changes? dont get me wrong, im happe we can, but i dont think id be willing to pay this price for it. doesnt make anything easier at all. i can only think of ONE encounter where these changes are gonna help. just ONE, in the entire game. on everything else, were nerfed to (*&@#$. <P>Message Edited by DaMutation on <SPAN class=date_text>05-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm not being sarcastic at all.  What I see is an acknowledgement of current problems with the state of control spells in the game, including but not limitted to the marginalization of such skills as a class defining role.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The nature of EQ2 makes control skills useful, albeit nonessential.  What differenciates them is this: while most roles, including control spells, have a threshold after which the marginal benefit of adding additional fulfillers of that role decreases, control skills are a bit unique in that this threshold remains more of less static as you upscale the difficulty of encounters through normal means.  If you reach a situation where this threshold is surpassed too easily, then the value of specialization in control decreases, and furthermore it leads to a fudging of encounter difficulty (such as stun immunities) that further marginalizes our specilized skills.  That's certainly the reasoning behind the game-wide control nerfs, and if it leads to an elimination of encounters designed to eliminate control, I hope we can at least agree that a 40 second mez that works is more useful than a 50 second one that the enemies ignore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now then, lets examine the rest of the game that has never been subjected to these artificial restrictions.  A cursory glance at our skills makes me surmise the following:</DIV> <DIV>- Single target mezzing capability will be reduced a bit.  The duration reductions really shouldn't be a big issue here, but the 'hostile action' bit could hurt.  Multiple target mezzing is also reduced, with the potential issue being whether it blocks our AoE mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Encounter-based control in general will be reduced, both in total amount of control, and in resistability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Single-target heroic control looks to be increased.  Right now, give or take a few seconds for recasts, we can keep a heroic target sunned for about 19 seconds per 30, and stifled virtually any time it's not stunned.  Our true stun time will be reduced to about 12 seconds per 30, however we should nonetheless be able to maintain an almost indefinite stifle.  Moreover, don't forget the new daze ability.  That's 14 seconds per 30 of effectively turning a stifle into a stun if I understand it correctly (provided daze stacks with stifle).  So not accounting for casting times, we work harder to effectively gain about 7 seconds of stunning per 30 on a single target because of this.  To give us this skill without reducing stun durations would mean that a single illusionist could effectively keep something stunned nearly 100% of the time, which would be silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- In Epics, we can at least use our control skills, which is more than before.  Now, the way they are slated, I don't see them as a major damage reducer the way they are in heroic content, but that doesn't make them useless.  I don't raid enough to know if it will impact an experienced raid guild much, but I've raided enough to see situations where a healer was a second or two late in casting a heal that would have saved the tank from a finishing blow.  That's how I think these skills are intended to be used in raids - a quick stun or stifle to create an opportunity, rather than as a general damage mitigator.  If they were balanced as general damage prevention tools like in heroic content, then they would just rebalance all raid damage output on the assumption that enchanters are present and controlling as much as possible.  This way, these spells won't necessarily be spammed whenever the immunity's up, but they'll give skilled, alert enchanters a way to play hero in more specific raiding situations.  Color/solar shower remains a question mark; if the damage portion is reduced in duration it'll hurt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So overall, we lose some ability to control grouped encounters, but in situations where it's really necessary to control a grouped encounter we still have the option of mezzing withing the encounter and slowing down the fight.  We gain some ability to fight single heroic targets.  We lose some ability to mez targets, with the biggest question marks being how the AoE mez and the 'hostile action' things will pan out in practice.  We gain some abilities to use situational control against Epics, and we maay or may not take a DPS hit against Epics with Solar Shower.  It's definitely a gain some/lose some situation, and certainly not a clear cut nerf.</DIV>

[Stealth Status]

<div></div>Why do you guys care so much about what you can do in a group? (meaning one group, not in regards to raids)If you aren't 70 yet, well then I guess, it matters, but are you really always using pick up groups? Mostly in my leveling experience its with guildies and friends and your friends aren't usually ones to toss you aside because a stranger can do x x this much better. It just seems like such a small part of the game, that we won't have to level up until next winter.I just am most concerned with the immunity timers with regards to raiding with a coercer. That seems to be the only major problem I can point out, since Caligin said that those dmg rating were not right.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Stealth Status on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:13 AM</span>

[Methriln]

hmm dunno what to say about this.

[Lolthinae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>elandur wrote: </P> <P>I don't raid enough to know if it will impact an experienced raid guild much, but I've raided enough to see situations where a healer was a second or two late in casting a heal that would have saved the tank from a finishing blow.  That's how I think these skills are intended to be used in raids - <FONT color=#ff9900>a quick stun or stifle to create an opportunity</FONT>, rather than as a general damage mitigator. <BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>As it stands now, the casting time on our quick stun (1 sec) has been increased to 2 secs - I've seen an epic mob wipe a raid in less time than that. A quick stifle in an emergency will require the immunity times to be down - that leaves me without the ability to use solar shower for DPS - and it normally contributes around 20% of the DPS I do. Should I really sacrifice more of my already meagre DPS for the ability to do a tiny, little bit of damage control? Doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me. We are supposed to have less DPS than other mages because we have better CC abilities, now it seems to become a choice between little DPS or little CC.

[PurpleWarri]

<P>The 'Tank Alt' path is starting to look much more tempting.</P> <P>It's not like anyone ever accused my Illu of being overpowered :smileysad: I really don't understand these constant reductions of our abilities. I already can't touch a single heroic^^^ until it's grey in a lot of cases and normal 'solo' grouped mobs can be challenging even with my current stun/mezz abilities.</P> <P>When I get in a group of 4 I feel quite useful as I can speed up our progress by reducing the damage the Tank/Priest have to deal with. The changes listed above detract from that ability too.</P> <P>I'll play waitsee I suppose, as usual, but maybe an alt is a good idea just to have some fun :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV>A wizard can cast their stun/dd spell for the damage on a player in pvp even when the target is stun immune.  Thus, I'd assume an illus could use color shower on an epic mob with stifle immunity for the aoe dot effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would really appreciate it if they revamped the lvl 40 pb aoe mez into something non-mez.  I'm glad I've gone down from having 7 forms of crowd control that share a single timer to "only" 4, but really, 3 mezzes is enough.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>05-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 AM</span>

[110euph]

<DIV>Now, i'm only a 55 illusionist, but I'd like to chime in by saying a couple of things: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we do WAY WAY WAY too much DPS.  When the illusionist parses up there with the wizards and conjurors, there's an issue.  We were very due for a DPS nerf, and i'm glad it's happening.  I played my Ranger to 64, then played my illusionist to 55, and there are groups of mobs in TT that my illusionist just yawns at while my ranger is busy as hell just trying not to die.  9 levels, and the illusionist owns these mobs.  Maybe I just suck as a ranger... that's a possibility, but when the illusionist also kills FASTER than the ranger, there's a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, please realize... we are gaining the ability to stun / mez epic mobs.  Y'all been griping for a year and a half "We can't do anything against epic mobs" and now SoE is doing something about it... and y'all still griping.  Be happy.  Lets all say this together:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THANK YOU SONY!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You complain when they don't do something, and you complain when they do... if I worked for SoE, I think I'd hate my player base.    we never say thank you, we never are happy when they try to fix things or make things more challenging.  and if you hate the people you are being paid to help, I doubt you'd try very hard to help them... especially when they keep paying you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one, am grateful.</DIV>

[Belizarius]

<P>Huh?</P> <P>Well, this is the thread about the coming CC changes.  Maybe you wanted the thread about the DPS nerf that's already here.</P> <P>There'd be something seriously wrong if a chanter didn't handle groups better than a Ranger.  But in the raid situtation its the single target DPS that counts.  Our single target DPS has been seriously cut, we ain't parsing like that any more.</P> <P>We still have a couple of decent encounter AEs.  That's because otherwise, our role in groups against multi-mob encounters would really suck.  Nobody wants us to mez 'em.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway.</P> <P>It's a good point that was raised about daze + stifle, I hadn't thought of that.  Presumably the mob can still move, but otherwise it's effectively stunned.</P> <P>I'm a bit worried about removing AE mezzed targets from AE effects, how will this work with re-mezzing or with taunting?  Will our PBAE emergency mez also be changed?</P> <P>I'm also worried about 'hostile' spells breaking mez, what does that mean?  No more Dismay on mezzed mobs before break?  No debuffing whatsoever?  Can they even taunt them without breaking?  These would make mez rather problematic.</P>

[enc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> elandur wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Single-target heroic control looks to be increased.  Right now, give or take a few seconds for recasts, we can keep a heroic target sunned for about 19 seconds per 30, and stifled virtually any time it's not stunned.  Our true stun time will be reduced to about 12 seconds per 30, however we should nonetheless be able to maintain an almost indefinite stifle.  Moreover, don't forget the new daze ability.  That's 14 seconds per 30 of effectively turning a stifle into a stun if I understand it correctly (provided daze stacks with stifle).  So not accounting for casting times, we work harder to effectively gain about 7 seconds of stunning per 30 on a single target because of this.  To give us this skill without reducing stun durations would mean that a single illusionist could effectively keep something stunned nearly 100% of the time, which would be silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Now, that's good thinking. On theory, it should work as i didn't see anything in the spell description saying stiffle and daze couldn't be used simultaneously. </P> <P>We all know it would get nerfed/ fixed the second after it goes live ( it would be legitimate though :smileytongue<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but it would fun to use it for some hours lol.<BR></P>

[Chrysostom]

From my understanding daze breaks on damage. Which of course means that stiffle + daze != stun.<div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chrysostom wrote:<BR>From my understanding daze breaks on damage. Which of course means that stiffle + daze != stun.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>From the spell affect wording, it states nothing of the sort that daze would break of damage.

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 110euph wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now, i'm only a 55 illusionist, but I'd like to chime in by saying a couple of things: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we do WAY WAY WAY too much DPS.  When the illusionist parses up there with the wizards and conjurors, there's an issue.  We were very due for a DPS nerf, and i'm glad it's happening.  I played my Ranger to 64, then played my illusionist to 55, and there are groups of mobs in TT that my illusionist just yawns at while my ranger is busy as hell just trying not to die.  9 levels, and the illusionist owns these mobs.  Maybe I just suck as a ranger... that's a possibility, but when the illusionist also kills FASTER than the ranger, there's a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, please realize... we are gaining the ability to stun / mez epic mobs.  Y'all been griping for a year and a half "We can't do anything against epic mobs" and now SoE is doing something about it... and y'all still griping.  Be happy.  Lets all say this together:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THANK YOU SONY!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You complain when they don't do something, and you complain when they do... if I worked for SoE, I think I'd hate my player base.    we never say thank you, we never are happy when they try to fix things or make things more challenging.  and if you hate the people you are being paid to help, I doubt you'd try very hard to help them... especially when they keep paying you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one, am grateful.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thank SOE for what?  A six sec epic mez?  A 2 sec epic stun?  Or the lowering of all our CC abilities in general?  How about our further DPS reduction?  If you think Illusionists do too much DPS, you need your head examined.  That or better wizzys in your guild.</P> <P>SOE can kiss my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with fixes like these.  Sure people may not like my tone, but they dont respond to ANY enc topic no matter how positive.  They dont communicate one lick with their customers.  This is what they deserve.</P>

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV> <P>Test server notes read:</P> <P><EM>Coercer: Ego Shock - Changed Root into target encounter daze that always lands. Reuse timer changed to 30s. Damage reduced. Daze effect will affect Epic targets.<BR>- Illusionist: Headache - Changed mez into daze that always lands. Reuse timer changed to 30s. Damage reduced. Daze effect will affect Epic targets.</EM></P> <P>It seems like the damage on their 2ndary dd was lowered since it was being made into an aoe, but ours was also lowered, yet remains single target.  What's the balancing point...does the Coercer's verision daze for less duration?  Has anyone seen [Removed for Content] of the coercer's spell?</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>05-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[merkla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipmode wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 110euph wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now, i'm only a 55 illusionist, but I'd like to chime in by saying a couple of things: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we do WAY WAY WAY too much DPS.  When the illusionist parses up there with the wizards and conjurors, there's an issue.  We were very due for a DPS nerf, and i'm glad it's happening.  I played my Ranger to 64, then played my illusionist to 55, and there are groups of mobs in TT that my illusionist just yawns at while my ranger is busy as hell just trying not to die.  9 levels, and the illusionist owns these mobs.  Maybe I just suck as a ranger... that's a possibility, but when the illusionist also kills FASTER than the ranger, there's a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, please realize... we are gaining the ability to stun / mez epic mobs.  Y'all been griping for a year and a half "We can't do anything against epic mobs" and now SoE is doing something about it... and y'all still griping.  Be happy.  Lets all say this together:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THANK YOU SONY!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You complain when they don't do something, and you complain when they do... if I worked for SoE, I think I'd hate my player base.    we never say thank you, we never are happy when they try to fix things or make things more challenging.  and if you hate the people you are being paid to help, I doubt you'd try very hard to help them... especially when they keep paying you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one, am grateful.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thank SOE for what?  A six sec epic mez?  A 2 sec epic stun?  Or the lowering of all our CC abilities in general?  How about our further DPS reduction?  If you think Illusionists do too much DPS, you need your head examined.  That or better wizzys in your guild.</P> <P>SOE can kiss my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with fixes like these.  Sure people may not like my tone, but they dont respond to ANY enc topic no matter how positive.  They dont communicate one lick with their customers.  This is what they deserve.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>about Heroic</FONT></P> <P>oki is true we are going to be nerfed but... all other classes will not be able anymore to stun(or i am wrong? pls answer to this)...brigand will lose tehri stuns..other mages stun will lose their effectiveness.... actuall i think tthat an heroic 11 sec stun is really powerful.. and, i dunno others chanter but with the right sequence of spells i can solo any not immune heroic named</P> <P>actually too many classes can use our core ability and make heroic mobs too easy to kill.. this nerf will hit us badly but maybe finally heroic contest will be really "heroic"... i mean.. the first thing that i dont like in this game (after completely useless of chanters in raid) is that heroic contest is completely easy...doesnt need any skill mobs just go down...it is only level based... if mob is yellow evrybody... evrybody can kill it.. no focus..no skills nothing needed...</P> <P>chanter will be nerfed in heroic contest for sure.. but at least no other class will be able to stun as we do...at least i think is what lockeye meant in the post: " make chanters more useful in big group"... i repeat i dunno what u think about an 11 sec stun on heroic..but it s a really powerful toy.. maybe too much..and if it will mean that heroic mobs will not be just a boring farm thing i m not so unhappy about this nerf...  </P> <P>we will lose dmg on our 2nd nuke..but actually.. how much dps did it add? not so many.. and the mez on it was basicly useless..daze can be another nice and useful toy so it will be anotehr dmg control..what chanter should be the king is dmg control mobs control and i hope that nerfing all teh stuns from otehrs classes will make it more useful...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>speaking about mez</FONT>: omg how many times did u see a mob resist ur mez and become something dangoerous? mmm never? in eq1 i remember when i used to get mez resisted (and on GoD and oow it happened alot) i had to be so fast in rune myself, toss a fast short duration mez, tash and remez before he killed me and then my group... i know chanter was a key class nad they dont want to make us again part of an holy trinity.. but actually show some skills in mezzing cuz adds can be something more then "oh another mob to kill" wont be so bad... and if people (aka other classes) cant mitigate dmg as they do now maybe and i repepat maybe mez will be something useful (something a bit harder to land) and not a semi useless thing.... about mez duration.... 50 sec or 40 sec wont change much cuz mob go down fast..what i hope will be important is to  mitigate their dmg... cuz if their cant be mitigated anymore by evrybody they can toss a lot dmg to bring the group in a harder situation</P> <P>what really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] me out still is if there will be still heroic immune mobs to ALL our core abilityes.. that they must disappear (omg heroic mob immune and epic not?)</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>about epic:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>mezzing</FONT>, how they are goin to implement will be completely useless.... cmon mez a mob for 6 secs? break on any hostile action??? will never be usefull... maybe if the raid is uber coordinated.. u dont have any applicant that is learning how to raid and ALL understand and however will land for 6 secs</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>stuns </FONT>can be a difference... oki 2.6 sec isnt a long time but we are always speaking about an epic mob.... it can be the difference between a dead tank and an alive tank.... or...how many times did u see the big ugly mofo (maybe orange) turn his back to the tank and agro the usual wizard that overagroed and aoe in the middle of the dpser or (worse the healers) and wipe a good attempt? now u can mitigate that... now,once the usual wizard did his dumb mistake, u give 2.6 sec to the tank to take again agro and turn the mob before he wipes evrybody... oki u cant have 1k dumb wizards that always overagro.. but 1 evry 24 sec <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.. or simply just mitigate the dmg of the mofo as u will try to use stiffle and dazes... and 1 chanter can do that? dunno the resists can be an issue.. maybe on yellow yes but on an orange mob? what about 2 or even 3 chanters trying to stun to avoid a possible wipe?</P> <P>there are alot of more example that i have in mind where stuns and stiffles..also with this short duration.. can make a difference</P> <P>and there are many fights where the named isnt only one but 2 linked where more than 1 chanter can be.. yes im saying hte word... needed...</P> <P>i prefer this to be completely forgot in the oblivion and jsut be a tier 3dpser</P> <P> </P> <P>so pinski i really respect ya and i think that u are the best poster illusionists have(dunno about other classes but i doubt htat are so many good as ya) always making good posts where noobs and not noobs can learn something more about this class... but i dont think this changes will be so bad for us as u said..actually i really want to see em go live to see if REALLY, how lockeye said, they will improve our utility in group (and see finally some heroic to be really a challenge) and finally have a role in raids different from manabotter</P> <P>P.S sorry for my english but i hope i have explained what i think pretty well</P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by merklarx on <span class=date_text>05-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:53 PM</span>

[Flipmode]

Other classes are not losing their stun, just having the durations adjusted.  Yes we will be better off than the other classes, but thats not a fix.  Nerfing others to make us look better and then nerfing us too...I just dont see the wisdom in it.

[Andi]

<div></div><div></div>i´m not sure, what i should help if i can mezz an epic by longer recasttime, shorter duration...An Illu is a supporter class, now we were nerfed to t5 illu ae power, in my point of view it is the same bulls*** as lu13 was.were is the skill to control a mob and <u>not</u> only <font color="#ff0000">->taunt->heal/nuke->death</font> (WHAT A FUN, without any tactic) I love my illu and i´m a bit frustrated of how the DEVs are downgrading a class, which was known for support abilities, mob control and a moderate dps.now we got nothing of these. I´m raiding 4-7days a week and there are only a few mobs were i can stun (adds) now i can meszmerize what a feeling and the wholeoter abilites were removed complety.it is going the way to a dumb game wich each "noob" can play.lu24 rating: <font color="#ff0000">5-</font><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by juStandi on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

[merkla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipmode wrote:<BR> Other classes are not losing their stun, just having the durations adjusted.  Yes we will be better off than the other classes, but thats not a fix.  Nerfing others to make us look better and then nerfing us too...I just dont see the wisdom in it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>im pretty sure rogues are losing a couple of their main stuns</P> <P>and too many classes have tooo many stuns and dmg control thing thay have to lose</P>

[WAPCE]

Maybe I read it wrong, but I thought only Enchanter CC spells were going to work on epics? This is from the one of the Summoner threads:<img src="http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3921/130153711347pl.jpg">Or does the "if target not epic" cancel that out, and if so, why include the duration reduction at all?<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 PM</span>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WAPCE wrote:<BR>Maybe I read it wrong, but I thought only Enchanter CC spells were going to work on epics? This is from the one of the Summoner threads:<BR><BR><IMG src="http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3921/130153711347pl.jpg"><BR><BR>Or does the "if target not epic" cancel that out, and if so, why include the duration reduction at all? <P>Message Edited by WAPCE on <SPAN class=date_text>05-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:29 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am confused as you are. Look at our new root that pinski posted. It contradicts itself. I assume it is just a typo at this point.

[auk]

It will probably be "cleaned up" before going live, but I imagine the process for changing the spells was simply a global code change or a script that ran over all the spell data. The 'does not effect epic targets' portion was then removed from enchanter spells but left on everyone else's. So, the I'm pretty sure the 'reduced duration' and 'immunity' portions of other class's spells is just an artifact of the method the coders used to change the way stuns, stifles, dazes and mezzes work versus epics for us.<div></div>

[110euph]

<DIV>Thank SoE for making a game that is so good you are willing to pay $15 a month to play it.  The alternative is to stop paying them.  Do one or the other, but don't pay them so you can [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at them.  If I were a developer, I would not bother to reply to or read your posts either.  </DIV>

[Lolthinae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> merklarx wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>about epic:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>stuns </FONT>can be a difference... oki 2.6 sec isnt a long time but we are always speaking about an epic mob.... it can be the difference between a dead tank and an alive tank.... or...<FONT color=#ff9900>how many times did u see the big ugly mofo (maybe orange) turn his back to the tank and agro the usual wizard that overagroed and aoe in the middle of the dpser or (worse the healers) and wipe a good attempt? now u can mitigate that... now,once the usual wizard did his dumb mistake, u give 2.6 sec to the tank to take again agro and turn the mob before he wipes evrybody</FONT>... oki u cant have 1k dumb wizards that always overagro.. but 1 evry 24 sec <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.. or simply just mitigate the dmg of the mofo as u will try to use stiffle and dazes... and 1 chanter can do that? dunno the resists can be an issue.. maybe on yellow yes but on an orange mob? what about 2 or even 3 chanters trying to stun to avoid a possible wipe?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>As it stands now, our quick stun has had it's casting time increased from 1 to 2 seconds. 2 seconds is a lot of time for an epic mob to run rampant among healers and mages, and by the time you get it stunned you'll have 2.6 secs to get most of your raid rezzed.............

[WAPCE]

Speaking of nerfing, we took splash damage from the summoner balancing, too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <I>- Swarm and Dumbfire pets had their inherent stat bonuses removed from contributing to their damage. This amounts to a 17.5% reduction in their overall damage.</I>

[Pins]

<DIV>Well, Empty Mind now affects epics.  No other changes occured for our CC.</DIV>