Age old debate... Coercer/illu

[Mongowth]

<DIV>I've never really looked into Coercer as believe if you don't see other riches you can handle living with what you have. However, recently my eyes were drawn towards the coercer boards following a statement on a guild forum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The graph type style they've used is pretty irratic to show the regen status etc for their "breeze" equal but if I am reading it right then it says that a coercer with one single buff (no conc slot) regens for 169 (I'm guessing p/tick)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could anyone show any information about the regen abilities between the two classes please as feeling royally shafted atm by seeing this and hope this is a horrible mess up on my part and really there isn't that much a difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have our "breeze" (as you know it's always going to be known as breeze no matter what they call it), devitalising stare, etc..</DIV>

[Effie]

<DIV>Epiphany @ M2 gives 42 per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Ease @ M2 and Beholder's Eye @ A3 a Corecer can get around 55 per tick.</DIV>

[Mongowth]

<DIV>Is the secondary one similar to devitalising stare then? (short term duration)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was hoping for a little more in-depth information than that. Thank you very much all the same but was hoping for a maths equation to show exactly what could be regenned, say, over a 15 mins period (15 mins to take into account the mana cloak).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could do it when I get home but at work atm and curious as to whether anyone else has already gone to the point of working it out?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say for Mana cloak you take 5% (or whatever mana cloak proc chance is) of the average off of the overall time to match it's proc'ing amount for it's duration. On top of the continuous breeze, casting of dev stare, savante to work out how much a difference between the two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could someone also post what exactly the coercer regens are... Unless ofc the post above covers all of their regen?!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mongowth on <span class=date_text>04-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>

[Manyak]

<P>Both enchanters have the same breeze just with a different name. At M2 they give 42/tick (41/tick at M1). Coercers also get Mind's Eye, an additional "breeze" which gives 11.2/tick at M1. So illusionists are at 42 and coercers are at 53.2. But the spell based mana regen cap is 52.5, so the coercers base regen is dropped to that.</P> <P>Mana cloak is common to both enchanters, so dont bother taking that into consideration.</P> <P>Instead of savante, coercers get a spell called Channel. This takes the sum of the total available mana of the group and divides it evenly among its members. So if one person had 5k mana, another had 4k, and another was oop, it would even it all out so that each member had 3k mana.</P> <P>Coercers also get a similar spell to Devitalizing Gazes (24 sec duration, 45 sec recast). Only intead of draining the mobs mana it debuffs INT. It replenishes the groups mana by 41 every 6 seconds at M1, and is not counted towards the cap (and neither is dev stare btw).</P> <P>The Coercer version of Brainburst is an additional power tap, which gives mana to the coercer (only the coercer) at a rate of 41 every 6 seconds, and also isnt counted toward the cap. This spell can be constantly maintained. Dunno if u care to take this into consideration though.</P>

[Effie]

<P>I see Devitalizing Gazes M1 listed as giving 31 power per tick for 24 secs... unfortunately, I can't verify the M1 stats for Gorging Thoughts.</P> <P>So this basically means that for 24 out of 45 seconds, a Coercer can get personal regen 62 points per tick higher and group regen 21 points per tick higher than an Illusionist . For the other 21 seconds group regen is 11 points and personal regen is 52 points in favour of the coercer. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Effie on <span class=date_text>04-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:53 PM</span>

[zit]

<P>power regen from spells is not capped at 52.5.<BR>the overall powerregen is capped at 105 at lvl 70, form which max. 50% can be gained by items.</P> <P>means regen from items is capped at 52.5<BR>but there is no limitation for regen from spells beside the overall cap of 105.</P> <P> </P> <P>if we compare Devitalizing Gazes and Gorging Thought its not enough to only look how much power they give per tick. we need to compare all components of the spell. i only have adept 1 number, so lets look at these:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes: 23 power per tick</FONT> vs. <FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought 31 power per tick</FONT>.</P> <P>sounds unfair yes?</P> <P>now, what is completely missed here is that <FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes ticks every 4 seconds</FONT> while <FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought only ticks every 6 seconds</FONT>.</P> <P>so over the course of the spell <FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes is giving 23x7=161 power</FONT> while <FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought is giving 31x5=155 power</FONT>.</P> <P>bah, unfair again? but this time coercer get the shaft?</P> <P>no, we not done yet.</P> <P>there are still some components to consider.</P> <P>power cost for example. Gorging Thought is slightly cheaper to cast. (<FONT color=#ffff00>111</FONT> vs. <FONT color=#66ffff>114 power</FONT>)</P> <P>and also: cast time</P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes has a cast time of 3 seconds, <FONT color=#ffff00>while Gorging Thought has only 2 seconds</FONT></FONT></P> <P>and one more thing to consider:</P> <P>effect radius!</P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes effect radius is rediculously small with only 7.5 range.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought</FONT> , although still small, is 1/3 bigger at least and <FONT color=#ffff00>has a range of 10.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>so what it comes down to is the following: illusionist get a spell that does regen slightly more power for slightly higher power cost and a longer cast time. coercer get a spell that is doing slightly less, but is slightly cheaper, has a faster cast times and is easier for the group to stay in range.</P> <P>now comparing both chanter classes power regen:</P> <UL> <LI>both get same breeze</LI> <LI>both get same Mana Cloak</LI> <LI>difference of Devitalizing Gazes and Gorging Thought is minimal (look above)</LI> <LI>coercer get a self only power tap, that gives them a net gain in regen at adept 1 of ~17 per standard 6 seconds tick (regen minus power cost for casting the spell)</LI> <LI>coercer also have Minds Eye, which regens ~8? at adept 1.</LI></UL> <P>so max personal regen of coercer at adept 1 can get +25 power per tick higher compared to illusionist. at master should be +31 or so.</P> <P>however this does not take into consideration "non-regen" power spells, savante for illusionist, channel for coercer (which usually favours the illu).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Belizarius]

<P>In my experience most raids don't really much care whether it's Illusionist or Coercer, or even Bard, when it comes to power regen.</P> <P>Not sufficient reason on it's own to want to jump ship imho.</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>As far as the comparion between savante and channel goes, i dont think u can really compare them. Because technically, channel doesnt give any mana to the group, but savante does (indirectly). Channel is a very situational spell, but its still amazingly useful when available.</DIV>

[Effie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zitha wrote:<BR> <P>power regen from spells is not capped at 52.5.<BR>the overall powerregen is capped at 105 at lvl 70, form which max. 50% can be gained by items.</P> <P>means regen from items is capped at 52.5<BR>but there is no limitation for regen from spells beside the overall cap of 105.</P> <P> </P> <P>if we compare Devitalizing Gazes and Gorging Thought its not enough to only look how much power they give per tick. we need to compare all components of the spell. i only have adept 1 number, so lets look at these:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes: 23 power per tick</FONT> vs. <FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought 31 power per tick</FONT>.</P> <P>sounds unfair yes?</P> <P>now, what is completely missed here is that <FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes ticks every 4 seconds</FONT> while <FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought only ticks every 6 seconds</FONT>.</P> <P>so over the course of the spell <FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes is giving 23x7=161 power</FONT> while <FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought is giving 31x5=155 power</FONT>.</P> <P>bah, unfair again? but this time coercer get the shaft?</P> <P>no, we not done yet.</P> <P>there are still some components to consider.</P> <P>power cost for example. Gorging Thought is slightly cheaper to cast. (<FONT color=#ffff00>111</FONT> vs. <FONT color=#66ffff>114 power</FONT>)</P> <P>and also: cast time</P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes has a cast time of 3 seconds, <FONT color=#ffff00>while Gorging Thought has only 2 seconds</FONT></FONT></P> <P>and one more thing to consider:</P> <P>effect radius!</P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Devitalizing Gazes effect radius is rediculously small with only 7.5 range.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Gorging Thought</FONT> , although still small, is 1/3 bigger at least and <FONT color=#ffff00>has a range of 10.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>so what it comes down to is the following: illusionist get a spell that does regen slightly more power for slightly higher power cost and a longer cast time. coercer get a spell that is doing slightly less, but is slightly cheaper, has a faster cast times and is easier for the group to stay in range.</P> <P>now comparing both chanter classes power regen:</P> <UL> <LI>both get same breeze</LI> <LI>both get same Mana Cloak</LI> <LI>difference of Devitalizing Gazes and Gorging Thought is minimal (look above)</LI> <LI>coercer get a self only power tap, that gives them a net gain in regen at adept 1 of ~17 per standard 6 seconds tick (regen minus power cost for casting the spell)</LI> <LI>coercer also have Minds Eye, which regens ~8? at adept 1.</LI></UL> <P>so max personal regen of coercer at adept 1 can get +25 power per tick higher compared to illusionist. at master should be +31 or so.</P> <P>however this does not take into consideration "non-regen" power spells, savante for illusionist, channel for coercer (which usually favours the illu).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Great info.<BR>Thanks.