T7 raiding

[Lolthinae]

<DIV>This post is about T7 raiding, nothing else. Please do not trun it into yet anotherr discussion about how good we are in groups and solo (we know that), or how much DPS we could do in T5 and T6. It's about being a raiding illusionist in Kingdom of Sky.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Looking back a bit......</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being a T5 raiding illusionist before LU22 was fun and yet a pain in the butt. Casting crack on a full raid force every 10 mins is not something I miss, but stifles, stuns and mezzes worked on (some) epics and were actually sometimes useful. Heck, occasionally we could even completely drain an epic mob - but those days are long gone now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adapting to the changes after LU22 while starting T6 raiding, I still had a lot od fun. Many T6 raid encounters consist of a boss mob with a couple off linked buddies, and while my cc spells didn't work on the boss, they were useful on the buddies. For quite some time, while getting to lvl 60 and gearing up, we used mezzing to reduce mob damage output. On a few encounters, like the Black Queen and Adolpho, mezz was even required. I still had a lot of fun raiding and felt that I played an important role, in all but PP:R that is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Today.......</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we are raiding T7. We have completed the Lab, the Lyceum and Trial4, and we are under way in Ascent and Temple of Scale. Almost all encounters in all instances are like PP:R, consisting of 2-4 linked mobs that are all true epics. My role has now effectively been reduced to simply providing crack for one group and doing as much DPS as I possibly can - but truth be told, I suck at DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I parse in the range of 400-450, sometimes a bit more, sometimes aa bit less. Our assasin does 1.3-1.4K and the other mages and DPS classes hit around 1K (some a bit more, some a bit less). Even our pally does more DPS than me, parsing around 600. I hit every spell I can use as soon as the timers are up, and I run out of things to cast before the timers have refreshed. I simply can't see how I can do more than that, except for moving in and whacking the mob with my staff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I need advice from the rest of you T7 rading illusionists out there, as I find it increasingly difficult to justify my presence in raids. Crack isn't really that important any longer, and my DPS output is simply so low that it's hardly offset by the limited benefits of providing crack for one group. I am wearing some of the best gear in the game, my INT is well beyond capped, and my spells are all master or adept III qualiity - and this is all I can do???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How are the rest of you adapting to this? How are you doing in terms of DPS? What can I do better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~ Thx <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Lolthinae on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:08 AM</span>

[Pins]

<DIV>You aren't playing the class to the fullest if you're only getting 400 dps.  On the average day I get 700, and can spike to around 1000 with luck.</DIV>

[zit]

<P>with a cooperative troubador in group we can do very nice dps. (but even some T4 and T5 classes can do impressive dps with the proper AA and buffs, and brawler beat us any day.)</P> <P>however dps should not be the answer to our role on raids anyways. its a poor substitue. which i still gladly welcome as their isnt really much else atm that makes me feel useful. i wished i would be more busy casting other spells beside my dmg skills though.</P>

[Lolthinae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV>On the average day I get 700, and can spike to around 1000 with luck.</DIV><BR> <HR> <BR>How? You don't get that with only self buffs and casting everything you have every time the timers refresh. You much be raid buffed somehow - but which buffs? From which classes?</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lolthinae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zitha wrote:<BR> <P>with a cooperative troubador in group we can do very nice dps. (but even some T4 and T5 classes can do impressive dps with the proper AA and buffs, and brawler beat us any day.)</P> <P>however dps should not be the answer to our role on raids anyways. its a poor substitue. which i still gladly welcome as their isnt really much else atm that makes me feel useful. i wished i would be more busy casting other spells beside my dmg skills though.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As I said in my first post, we hardly need crack any longer, much less double crack. Of course it's nice, but it's certainly not needed, so that cancels out the one benefit I might bring to a group - crack - and leaves me with my meagre DPS alone. Even if I might be able to spike my DPS to 700 that way - is there any good reason not to bring another assasin or wizzy in stead? They easily do double that.</P> <P>And yes, we should not be primarly DPS, but have you found any other good use for an illusionist on T7 raids?</P> <P>I don't want to turn this into a whine, and I certainly don't want a [Removed for Content] contest about who does most DPS, I'm sincerly looking for answers here, and if it actually is possible to do 1K I would really like to know how. So Pinski, please, how do you do that?</P>

[Jinnchanter]

<DIV>Guilds, which ask a enc to attend a raid, often need power regen and control mini mobs ability, not DPS.</DIV>

[Barobra]

<DIV>Please keep to original subject. T7 raids. If you don't do T7 don't say something your not sure of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I myself will attest to the fact that I have done very litte T7 raids due to RL atm. But, I can give a little advice on DPS as I have done very well with it since the beginning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We obviously do very well with buffs that give procs with each spell cast since we are basically just a button mashing class. I believe the troub or dirge gives this kind of buff to us. This will help. Also, I have the orb earring that procs along with grizzles (obviously you may have better fabeled gear but....do you really need the more int or power? I have yet to need power THAT bad). I would always go with a spell proc item over 50 more power or....20 stamina... anyways this is up to you. 3 procs going at the same time really boosts my DPS. Also name your pet the same as you, constantly have them attacking..this will show you what DPS they add (mainly your reason pet cause obviously you wont have your personae on raid)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you bring up really solid arguments that have been complained about on this board many times. I think the simple solution is add encounters where a TRUE mezzing class is needed. Maybe they could get by with another mez class but it would be way more difficult. I think this is how they should approach epic encounters with mez etc. But just adds...obviously we shouldnt be mezzing the main named cause we could just freeze time and load up...keep fighting. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But why is mez so feared on epics? It CAN be done properly with the right thinking. Just add trash that HAS to be mezzed or your over run with mobs. Why is this a problem? There is plenty of classes that mez why can't this be done? I don't get it pesonally. LET US MEZ ON EPICS. There has got to be a way to have this work without making it overpowering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the most fun I had was with my guild and breaking into fear for the first time in EQ1. This was a blast. Yes, it was frustrating at first but it was alot of fun with many different classes working together to achieve a goal. At the time we HAD to mez to get this done. in short....mez on epics....lets see it happen.</DIV>

[Lolthinae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We obviously do very well with buffs that give procs with each spell cast since we are basically just a button mashing class. I believe the troub or dirge gives this kind of buff to us. This will help. Also, I have the orb earring that procs along with grizzles (obviously you may have better fabeled gear but....do you really need the more int or power? I have yet to need power THAT bad). I would always go with a spell proc item over 50 more power or....20 stamina... anyways this is up to you. 3 procs going at the same time really boosts my DPS. Also name your pet the same as you, constantly have them attacking..this will show you what DPS they add (mainly your reason pet cause obviously you wont have your personae on raid)</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Thx Baro - this is good advice. I actually do have some armor pieces with procs that I don't normally wear - I'll try that next time around. In terms of naming my pet, do you mean that if I name my pet Lolthinae it's DPS will be added to mine and not show seperately? Never thought about that, maybe that little crystal will give me a bit of a boost <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[dpizzle4]

I totally agree Baro... I was in Lyceum last night.. the first set of mobs are a perfect example.  The two on the left are true epics and therefore cant be mezzed, stunned, stifled, rooted, or anything but dmged.  The two on the right arent true epics and can be rooted and stifled.  So that means that u cant stun or mez them.. Now hmmm who has root and who has stun and mez.  I mean root is still a form of CC if they didnt want those things to be able to be rooted they just had to put the true epic wings on the tag.  But that means that they did it on purpose and therefore feel that classes like wiz and warlock should be doing the CCing b/c not only do they have root just like us but its better.  So why leave that form of CC open and not let us just stun and mez those 2 out of 4 and let our CC actually b useful instead of cutting us out JUST IN CASE we might make the fight trivial.what i dont understand is that there are a few other classes with mez so y not just make it so they can be mezzed.. its just straight BS that we have to stand there and just use our WORST CC ability and hope it doesnt break when i have 3 Master  1 Mezzes and every stun up to adept 3.  when a wiz or warlock could do it just as easily and still output 1k more dmg and me.I dont like to whine, and dont do it often, but just make it so we can mez the epic adds and trash not the main boss so us illusionists can have a place.Darkillusion69 illusionist KithicorProud member of Spite<div></div>

[Barobra]

<DIV>Ya I was just referring to the fact if you name it the same as yourself most parses will just add its DPS to yours and then you see your true DPS. But if other classes did this it would probably show there true DPS as well. So it maybe a little skewed but it works to show some of whats really going on. But spell procs are a huge boost. Use them wisely. Try to balance your equip out so your just barely hitting int cap but getting procs and decent power.</DIV>

[Lolthinae]

<DIV>Please Darki - let's not turn this into another whine feast. Yes it sucks, but it's not gonna change, so we have to find a way to deal with it. That's what this thread is about - how do we best deal with it? If the answer is that now we only do DPS, nothing else, then how do we do that to the best of our ability?</DIV>

[Lolthinae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if other classes did this it would probably show there true DPS as well. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Bah - I'll never tell them!!! lol<BR>

[Posti]

<blockquote><hr>Lolthinae wrote:<div>Please Darki - let's not turn this into another whine feast. Yes it sucks, but it's not gonna change, so we have to find a way to deal with it. That's what this thread is about - how do we best deal with it? If the answer is that now we only do DPS, nothing else, then how do we do that to the best of our ability?</div><hr></blockquote>we dont have "game" at the T7 level; the solution is to whine and whine and rattle our cages untill they fix it...and hope they get it right.<div></div>

[Barobra]

Surprisingly alot of people don't know this trick...sometimes I get people asking me why I named my pet the same as myself....I just tell them it was an accident. :smileyhappy:

[Sadaro]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lolthinae wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Pinski wrote: <div>On the average day I get 700, and can spike to around 1000 with luck.</div> <hr> How? You don't get that with only self buffs and casting everything you have every time the timers refresh. You much be raid buffed somehow - but which buffs? From which classes?</blockquote><hr></blockquote>As mentioned earlier, spell proc buffs are your friend.  In 'all out' mode, you should be casting one spell every 2.5 seconds or so -- less if you have the Agility AA line to reduce your spellcasting times.  I haven't timed other classes, but I've done some DPS analysis of our spell proc (Dynamism).  Based on the numbers I'm seeing, against heroic encounters, I'd guess the average casting time for sorcerers (wizards/warlocks) is in the 4-6 second range.  Only the paladin and shadowknight get as much effect from spell procs as we do.Based on parsing, grizzlefazzles accounts for 5% of my long-term DPS.  I'd like to find the earring that procs.  Any ideas where it is?Sadari70 IllusionistMistmoore</div>

[Barobra]

Its the mystical orb or whatever. You get it from the collection quest. There is multiple version to choose from...one of which is a caster item. If you search for orbs on broker you should find one to aid you in figuring out which ones you need.

[Nupr]

<P>There are 3 pieces of spell proc gear that are easily obtainable in T7.  Grizzlefazzles from the Grizzlefazzle quest, the earring from the mystical orb collection quest, and the Bone Clasped Girdle from the Draco Mortis heritage quest.  All very nice to have if you're concerned about DPS.</P> <P>It's very hard to gauge our DPS since we are a buffing class.  If you dynamism or haste another person then it's not your DPS anymore but I guarantee SOE is keeping it in mind when they decide how much damage we do.  Like a lot of enchanters I really don't care about DPS, I just use it as an arguement to hopefully get some decent utility.  But if we can't get utility then we got to have something.</P> <P>Asking for crowd control is fairly pointless because most encounters aren't very threatening without it.  If you start mezzing most of the encounter then it becomes even more trivial so they'd have to boost the mobs up to compensate which is something they've said they don't want to do.  Unfortunately we have 4 different mez lines, although a lot of us use one as an expensive nuke.</P> <P>I just want some utility that matters.  I see these great new spells that they implement for other classes like Jester's Cap.  Why don't we have something like that?  We share so much with troubadors but then they get great spells that we don't have anything like.  Instead we got phase, which is like a warlock DoF spell, without the AE and without the stun / snare.  If we are a utility class then we should have something that makes people say, "I wish we had an illusionist for xx"</P>

[KaltenAlTh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV>You aren't playing the class to the fullest if you're only getting 400 dps.  On the average day I get 700, and can spike to around 1000 with luck.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gotta back you on this Pinski.  I've got similar numbers although my average is probally more like 800 then 700.</P> <P>I've given up and just plain changed my expectation that we will ever get Raid content that's designed for CC in mind.  In that light I've spec'd and equip'd my toon for DPS.  The not_so_secret; secret... is to increase your casting speed thru AA and increase the number of item and spell procs (group with troub) and you'll easily hit 700 dps.</P> <P>This is from several weeks ago, prior to me upgrading alot of damage spells (i can do 100 more dps easy now) but it will give you an idea of how I fit into T7 DPS teirs.</P> <DIV>Lvl70Swashy 88204 | 1,400.06<BR>Lvl70Assasin 70330 | 1,116.35<BR>Lvl70Warlock 58896 | 934.86<BR>Lvl70Brigand 52498 | 833.30<BR><FONT color=#cc0000>Lvl70Illusionist 48048 | 762.67 (ME)<BR></FONT>Lvl70Brigand 39634 | 629.11<BR>Lvl70Warlock 38091 | 604.62<BR>Lvl70Zerker 36890 | 585.56<BR>Lvl70Monk 34837 | 552.97<BR>Lvl70Guardian 34010 |</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 AM</span>

[trenor]

<DIV>I parsed every single fight in the lab yesterday.  I also have every proc item inn the game and 7 or 8 masters t7.  Was grped with a troubador.  T7 dps is absolutlety nonexistant.    This includes the belt, earring, godking wand, etc and I believe one or 2 other items cant remember off the top of my head.  You are absolutely correct on our dps single target you will rarely be doing over 500 dps (with master sentient line and master troub spell).  Grp mobs you have a slight chance to hit 700.  This is very slight.  I would like to see these imaginary parses at 700-800 dps.  They simply do not exist in t7.  I believe thses people are getting t7 raids confused with t6 where we were regularly able to break 800 dps.  The scaling just isnt here.  Also with perpertuality and chronomotion jesters cast is pretty much irrelevant.  You will have every damage spell casted and just be waiting to recast.</DIV>

[trenor]

Nupren we have the ultimate jester cast type spells in aa agility line chronomotion followed by perpetuality check them out

[trenor]

Also if you change your limited pet to your name (Lame).  You can add some dps.

[trenor]

Man I just can't stay away this irks me so much.  When ya see plate tanks out dpsing you as well as brawlers, furies, wardens etc.  The only person you will regularly out dps is inquisitor and templar and defiler.  Yes, guardians will now out dps us in offensiive mode.  Keep in mind if you go back to t6 raid mobs you will still be parsing great damage but the natural resist ( I am assuming) inherit to t7 raid mobs make us look like preschoolers.

[Lolthinae]

<P>Ok - I get the point with procs and grouping with a trouby, and I'll try it out. Grouping with a trouby, however, completely negates the only utility I bring to a group - crack - consireing that our raid groups to darn well without crack in the first place, double crack is totally wasted. Being able to cast dyna/haste on 2 other raid members hardly classifies me as utility or a buffing class. So, I guess I'll have to accept that in T7 I no longer bring any utility, only DPS, which is a bit hard to swallow knowing that our DPS is so much lower than other mages because we are supposed to be utility.... but, oh well.....</P> <P>What I don't understand is how the AGI line AAs can help. They reduce casting timers, but my problem is recast timers. I already have to wait for the recast timers to refresh, being able to cast the same spells faster, will just make me spend even more time waiting for those spell buttoons to refresh - or am I totally misunderstanding something here?</P> <P>And thx all for your inputs so far - much appreciated <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[trenor]

<DIV>Yes, but yours stacks with his.  Making it a good grp to throw them mana ho's wizards and warlocks in.  Yes, I am just as frustrated as you trust me.  Even with these classes in your grp you will do garbage dps.  If they didnt give us mana flow.  We would really be a lost cause</DIV>

[Pins]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> <BR><BR>trenor wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>I parsed every single fight in the lab yesterday.  I also have every proc item inn the game and 7 or 8 masters t7.  Was grped with a troubador.  T7 dps is absolutlety nonexistant.    This includes the belt, earring, godking wand, etc and I believe one or 2 other items cant remember off the top of my head.  You are absolutely correct on our dps single target you will rarely be doing over 500 dps (with master sentient line and master troub spell).  Grp mobs you have a slight chance to hit 700.  This is very slight.  I would like to see these imaginary parses at 700-800 dps.  They simply do not exist in t7.  I believe thses people are getting t7 raids confused with t6 where we were regularly able to break 800 dps.  The scaling just isnt here.  Also with perpertuality and chronomotion jesters cast is pretty much irrelevant.  You will have every damage spell casted and just be waiting to recast.</DIV><BR><BR> <HR> <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <P>Here's a parse against Vraksakin, a single target mob in Temple of Scale with a fair amoutn of HP(1.5 million)</P><BR><BR> <P>70Assassin, 154764 Damage, 1228.29DPS<BR>70Ranger, 134444 Damage, 1067.02DPS<BR><BR>70Illusionist, 118649 Damage, 941.66DPS(Me, including my construct, which did 14816 Damage, 117.59DPS, of course I was grouped with a troubador, though he didn't use precision of the maestro, however the wizard did use Frostbound Gift.  My proc items for this fight were the mystical orb, and the wand of second life, also keep in mind this mob does have 1 AoE, so as long as I waited for the AoE before sending in my construct, it would stay up till the next time I coudl cast it)<BR><BR>70Brigand, 113632 Damage, 901.84DPS<BR>70Bruiser, 104712 Damage, 831.05DPS<BR>70Wizard, 104225 Damage, 827.18DPS<BR>70Berserker, 101768 Damage, 807.68DPS<BR>70Swashie, 96287 Damage, 764.18DPS<BR>70Warlock, 92053 Damage, 730.58DPS</P><p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 PM</span>

[trenor]

<DIV>Do you have 3 brigands on your raid or something?   Your saying that on average you parse 900?  Or did you just pick the one fight where ya broke that high out of logs and post it?</DIV><p>Message Edited by trenor on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[zit]

<P>on our raids all classes are usually asked to name their pets after themselves for easier parsing compare. so i have never considererd this as "trick". in any case its important if we want figure out our direct dps contribution.</P> <P>sometimes when i am a bit frustrated with our role on raids i play around with parsing results. as there is not much else to do for us most times anyways i have started to figure out strats how to "show off", means how to get high parsing results while neglecting everything else. here are my tips for the dps-illusionist, who doesnt care about support and only want to look good on the parser at least once in a while:</P> <P>general tips:</P> <UL> <LI>get your damage spells at least adept 3, preferably master</LI> <LI>get in group with a troubador</LI> <LI>max your INT or get someone in group who can buff it</LI></UL> <P>general illusionist tips:</P> <UL> <LI>get as many proc items as able</LI> <LI>go AGI and INT for AA line</LI> <LI>name your pets after you</LI> <LI>get in group with a troubador</LI></UL> <P>specific tips:</P> <UL> <LI>use your personae</LI> <LI>buff synergism on you and your personae</LI> <LI>use all your dmg skills, dont hesitate to cast AE spells on single target</LI> <LI>get in group with a troubador. also pester him to keep jesters cap on you as much as possible</LI> <LI>chain cast, chain cast, chain cast</LI> <LI>dont post your parsing results on this forum</LI></UL> <P><STRONG>again, this is ONLY to look good on the parser. you wont have any con slots free to buff anyone else which often would be more beneficial. its pure show. :smileytongue:</STRONG></P> <P>it also doesnt work in every situation. for fights that last shorter than 1 min its hard to get good results. for fights that last longer than 2 mins, dps can drop cause oop. while fighting nameds that AE hard the personae is not much use. etc.</P> <P>here a break down of potential illusionist dps on single target (example taken vs. yellow con in Lyceum)</P> <UL> <LI>364 dps from troubador PROC buffs</LI> <LI>212 dps - prismatic shock</LI> <LI>202 dps - personae</LI> <LI>132 dps - shimmering beam</LI> <LI>172 dps - synergism and PROC items</LI> <LI>122 dps - construct</LI> <LI>80 dps - color shower</LI> <LI>46 dps - ultraviolet storm</LI> <LI>43 dps - brainburst</LI> <LI>35 dps - devour hope</LI> <LI>33 dps - wiz PROC buff</LI> <LI>21 dps - tumor</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>which means in that particular fight i got 569 dps alone from procs, most of it from other people's buffs (troubador !)</P> <P>another 324 dps from personae and construct wouldnt show up as illu dps if they werent named after the illu.</P> <P>also note: without Troubador and Wizard in group the dps would be ~500 less due to missing proc / crit / int buffs. and would be further reduced by missing jester's cap (cannot be calculated so easily how much that accounts for though).</P> <P>we also had good debuffs running and a brigand on raid. this alone can raise our dps by 20-30%. even more if you are lucky enough to have 3 brigands :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P>Now although we are able to dish out nice damage in combination with a troub, i fully agree with Lolithinae:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE><EM></EM> <HR> Lolthinae wrote:<BR> <P><EM> So, I guess I'll have to accept that in T7 I no longer bring any utility, only DPS, which is a bit hard to swallow knowing that our DPS is so much lower than other mages because we are supposed to be utility.... but, oh well.....</EM></P> <P><EM></EM></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>in pure dps mode we will provide less "utility" aka buffs and debuffs than pretty much any other dps class AND will still have to work harder to get close to their dps AND need very specific situations / group setups or will fall behind fast. i dont feel balanced i even less feel satisfied with my current role on raids.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by zitha on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[Etillchou]

yeh with a pet its possible however i wonder whats better raid wise.. dynamism on several players or keep your pet up.One thing tho.. For those who say they parse up to 900, 800 on average.. tell us how..procs dont take you up to 900.I parsed to 650 this night. So where am I missing the other 250 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />hmmz so if we drop all our buffs int/wis wise, have wizzies and troubadeurs buff us then you go to 900 on average.. oi well.. its a way.. but it isn't illu damage <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Etillchou on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 PM</span>

[zit]

<DIV>is it illu damage?... is it troub damage?</DIV> <DIV>the illu cannot proc the dmg without the troub buff, the troub wont get that many procs without the illu.</DIV> <DIV>its team play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>maybe we have misunderstood Moorgard when he said "illusionist shine in groups". maybe we dont shine in groups because we boost others that much, but because others can boost us that well. :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Stealth Status]

<DIV>Guys,... this is obvious and old news. T7 raiding.. were screwed on.. just give regen and "bonus" dps... but can be easily replaced by any troub or dirge.... (I have alwys maintained that Bards are way overpowered and are basically our class plus incombat rez, and very decent melee dps, and healing song)  SOOO overpowered. Not fair... Bards have made us worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the people that think we actually DPS... think again.. I saw thos parses 700 aint [Removed for Content]....You had a brigand and warlock rank under you... that is not a credit to you.... it is a detriment to them... There is no way no hell , ever that a warlock or brig should be dps'ing less then you...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, even if you get back up to 800dps... the warlock and brig should have more anyway... and with the right buffs, even the MT guardian can [Removed for Content] on our dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no light at the tunnell. just hope you are in a guild with friends where you are needed because you are one of the core members and you do not have enough bards for regen so you take up one regen spot for one of the groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is hardly new for this class... just enjoy yourself and hang on for the ride..... it has its rewards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you're waiting for a LU fix.... don't --- all you are really waiting for is another Bard/Dirge buff that will make you look even more castrated.   Bards got buffed with PoF... and KoS and LU 13, 17 and 20/.... They have never had a nerf... this is not oging to change now at the end of the games playlife.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly, we only have Outcast and the Water Cobra mob in DT left to kill and were done with this expansion anyway.  The games life is just about done so don't get so worked up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Barobra]

Yes the world has ended delete your illusionist now.

[Pins]

Heh zitha. I never bother to use my personae, maybe I should try it one time, and see how much more damage I do, but alas I don't know when I'll raid again.

[KaltenAlTh]

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etillchou wrote:<BR>yeh with a pet its possible however i wonder whats better raid wise.. dynamism on several players or keep your pet up.<BR><BR>One thing tho.. For those who say they parse up to 900, 800 on average.. tell us how..<BR> <P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>How about I show you.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>Keep in mind that I agree wholeheartedly that we need better CC and/or Utility roles on raids.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>This is an image of my parse for Gur'gul the Watcher, a single mob encounter.  I did not use a pet, didn't have jesters cap, no wizards buffs, I didn't do anything "special"; unless you want to count grouping with a troub.  I just focused on DPS only.  Please keep in mind that this is from several weeks ago and I've upgrade several spells and items since this, I'm guessing I could pull 1050'ish dps on this fight now.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><IMG src="http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5932/dpsonraid2sn.jpg"></SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 AM</span>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>Heh zitha. I never bother to use my personae, maybe I should try it one time, and see how much more damage I do, <FONT color=#ccff00>but alas I don't know when I'll raid again.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>???</P> <P>what does this mean?</P>

[Barobra]

<DIV>That is THE best parser out there btw everyone should use it. Advanced combat tracker. That is the web interface you can output for a webpage. Its a really nice parser. I have plenty of examples like this one. I think its just a matter of knowing how to maximize your dps output. And you should be able to hit this as well.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Thank you kaltene! Also, u could be getting more procs from the bone-clasped girdle (draco vos whatevr heritage), one of the claymore rewards, a wizzie, and an inquisitor. YES inquisitor, i just found that out today /slaps self.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, here is one of my own parses from a few days ago....was still using Devour Hope and Color Shower from T5/6, i hadnt got the upgrades yet. I didnt have the girdle either. And no frigid gift/maestro, and no inquisitor. Same exact situation Kaltene was in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/manyak_3aleik/dps1.JPG"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that i have those 2 spells upgraded, and i have the girdle, and im starting to use crit potions, there should be a nice improvement. Im gonna fix myself up a good grp and get a nice parse to post up.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>04-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 AM</span>

[Brakeman]

<P>So it looks to be a big discussion on DPS.  For myself I didn't choose an illusionist for DPS, but rather the ability to use my wits and various spells to defeat the encounter not root, nuke, run rinse and repeat.  Or mindless clicking of 3 nuke buttons.  It seems to me that SOE is just trying to add a bunch of flash to take our minds off of our lack usefulness in T7 raiding.  What flash you say well we are the new Power batteries pumping 10% power to a raidwide target ( with the cost of 10% of our health and power ) this was once the job of the wizzies, Raid wide ability of casting the prismistic line, and maybe a cure for single target arcane which all mages have.  I would add the ability to mez some encounters adds but as we all know people just can't figure out the assisting correctly in this game or that AE attack/ nuke just clicks itself ( or so I have heard ). An AA ability that is suppose to reduce a mobs casting time and decrease ours /shrug not sure if it really does much to help though.</P> <P>For myself I don't like the DPS aspect for us on raids one resisted taunt and we can easily pull the mob off of the tank, and if there is a AE involved that most likely spells a wipe with the healers getting pwned.  Not to mention we are already high on mob agro list from our buffs.  I truly believe buffing ourselves for dps looks good on the parse but how does it help the guild as a whole ?  Our proc spell line should be going to the true mage dps the wizzies and warlocks, or even our haste to our scouts for their proc'ing of weapons and such, if you are carrying more than 1 illusionist in raid.  If I wanted to be a dps [Removed for Content] I would of made a wizard or Brigand.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lets face the facts we aren't the majority class here therefore we are just a minor cog in this great big machine.  SOE is looking out for the majority of people not the minority.  Yes there maybe a lot of enc players, but come on how many are main characters most i know of are alts.  I know SOE took away a lot lot lot lot lot lot lot of class defining abilities because they say they don't want one class more necessary than another for game play, but I ask you are you willing to settle for what you are given or going to sit and whine about things beyond our control.  We aren't the only class that feels like we can do nothing like we should look at SK's and monks they were in eq1 the best pulling class, here they are just dps where is their  class defining utility.  Also i know of some dirges & troub's  that are still upset about their nerf back in PoF days.  All in all we have been pretty lucky for overall game play we can now solo fairly well, invis groups still, and no longer have to rebuff our crack every 10 mins.  Now I also believe we need a lot of retooling for raid situations, but I will just deal with being the new power battery for the newly rezed, MT, Healers, ect., and loot taker from other needed classes since like most of you I try to keep the faith that one day SOE will hear our plea's and we become a true utility not just a bunch of fluff.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Eavvy  AKA Tipsy</P> <P>70 Illusionist  Luclin D'Lere</P>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brakeman wrote:<BR> <P>So it looks to be a big discussion on DPS.  For myself I didn't choose an illusionist for DPS, but rather the ability to use my wits and various spells to defeat the encounter not root, nuke, run rinse and repeat.  Or mindless clicking of 3 nuke buttons.  It seems to me that SOE is just trying to add a bunch of flash to take our minds off of our lack usefulness in T7 raiding.  What flash you say well we are the new Power batteries pumping 10% power to a raidwide target ( with the cost of 10% of our health and power ) this was once the job of the wizzies, Raid wide ability of casting the prismistic line, and maybe a cure for single target arcane which all mages have.  I would add the ability to mez some encounters adds but as we all know people just can't figure out the assisting correctly in this game or that AE attack/ nuke just clicks itself ( or so I have heard ). An AA ability that is suppose to reduce a mobs casting time and decrease ours /shrug not sure if it really does much to help though.</P> <P>For myself I don't like the DPS aspect for us on raids one resisted taunt and we can easily pull the mob off of the tank, and if there is a AE involved that most likely spells a wipe with the healers getting pwned.  Not to mention we are already high on mob agro list from our buffs.  I truly believe buffing ourselves for dps looks good on the parse but how does it help the guild as a whole ?  Our proc spell line should be going to the true mage dps the wizzies and warlocks, or even our haste to our scouts for their proc'ing of weapons and such, if you are carrying more than 1 illusionist in raid.  If I wanted to be a dps [Removed for Content] I would of made a wizard or Brigand.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lets face the facts we aren't the majority class here therefore we are just a minor cog in this great big machine.  SOE is looking out for the majority of people not the minority.  Yes there maybe a lot of enc players, but come on how many are main characters most i know of are alts.  I know SOE took away a lot lot lot lot lot lot lot of class defining abilities because they say they don't want one class more necessary than another for game play, but I ask you are you willing to settle for what you are given or going to sit and whine about things beyond our control.  We aren't the only class that feels like we can do nothing like we should look at SK's and monks they were in eq1 the best pulling class, here they are just dps where is their  class defining utility.  Also i know of some dirges & troub's  that are still upset about their nerf back in PoF days.  All in all we have been pretty lucky for overall game play we can now solo fairly well, invis groups still, and no longer have to rebuff our crack every 10 mins.  Now I also believe we need a lot of retooling for raid situations, but I will just deal with being the new power battery for the newly rezed, MT, Healers, ect., and loot taker from other needed classes since like most of you I try to keep the faith that one day SOE will hear our plea's and we become a true utility not just a bunch of fluff.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Eavvy  AKA Tipsy</P> <P>70 Illusionist  Luclin D'Lere</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Good points here. I agree with some. Just a slight reminder though. Our regen is in combat only so newly rezed get no help except from mana flow. :smileyhappy:

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<BR>Good points here. I agree with some. Just a slight reminder though. Our regen is in combat only so newly rezed get no help except from mana flow. :smileyhappy:<hr></blockquote>In-Combat also applies to out-of combat as well.

[Barobra]

? I always thought in combat was in combat and out of combat was out of combat.....if it says neither it means it works in both? such as our gazes line.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:? I always thought in combat was in combat and out of combat was out of combat.....if it says neither it means it works in both? such as our gazes line.<hr></blockquote>Gazes is a Power Heal over Time spell basically, much like the old Breeze used to be. It does not play by the in-combat regen rules, which has a cap.

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <BR>Just a slight reminder though. Our regen is in combat only so newly rezed get no help except from mana flow. :smileyhappy:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>your raid never rez during combat ?? :smileysurprised:

[Barobra]

<DIV>If your rezzing your MT in combat youve got big trouble. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I have never read a dev response on in combat and out of combat....I have not tested this but I will now. I was always under the impression that having my mana regen did crap when I was crafting........ Are you telling me that my mana regen will help while im crafting?</DIV>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Barobrain wrote:</P> <P>If your rezzing your MT in combat youve got big trouble. :smileyhappy:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>oh, rezzing the MT is not common tactics? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....and i thought we got our raid strats straight already. :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P> <P>more seriously: no one was talking about power regen for the MT only. it was about rezed ppl in general.</P> <P>for power regen in / out of combat... i vaguely remember that it was said to also work out of combat. if you want to know for sure, just go and test it. </P>

[Lolthinae]

<DIV>Yes, this has somehow turned into a "see how much DPS I can do" kinda thread - which was not my intention when I started it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have learnt a few things here, about how I can do more DPS, but a lot of it seems to rely upon certain group combinations, or upon others giving me buffs that might actually provide more benefits to raid if placed upon other classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We field most of our raids with only a couple of chanters/bards, and placing me in group with our trouby, when we are the only 2 with crack in the entire raid, does seem to be poor utilisation of that utility. Jester's cap sounds great, 30% reduction on recast timers, but then again, our trouby normally casts that on the MT on incoming (for quicker taunts) and then move it to the MT templar (and we all know that templars have awfully long recast timers). Should I really ask him to jeopardize MT taunts and healing, to allow me a 20% - or whatever- increase to my meagre DPS? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even with the impressive parses we've seen here, I still can't find any justification really to keep me in the raid. IF I'm in group with a trouby, IF he casts buffs on me that might have been more useful elsewhere, IF I wear proccing items that most other DPS classes get as well, I might do a decent amount of DPS (while scrapping my only utility). Why not just get another assassin or wizard? - they can do better with less requirements........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oohh - this was in reply to Brakeman, way up the thread already <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Lolthinae on <span class=date_text>04-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 PM</span>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Lolthinae wrote:</P> <P>Even with the impressive parses we've seen here, I still can't find any justification really to keep me in the raid. IF I'm in group with a trouby, IF he casts buffs on me that might have been more useful elsewhere, IF I wear proccing items that most other DPS classes get as well, <FONT color=#ccff00>I might do a decent amount of DPS (while scrapping my only utility). Why not just get another assassin or wizard? - they can do better with less requirements........</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>well, yea. i guess that is the point it always comes down to atm.</P> <P> </P> <P>illusionists have 3 core functions.</P> <UL> <LI>CC</LI> <LI>power regen</LI> <LI>dps (direct and indirect via buffs)</LI></UL> <P>on raids CC is disabled for the most part.</P> <P>power regen is not necessary for the most part (at least in my experience)</P> <P>leaves dps for us. and in this role we are limited.</P> <P> </P> <P>i think the main reason why some raid leader still like us in their raids is cause many ppl get nervous if their power drops below 40%. I have seen healer panic cause their power has been down to 30% - when the named has been down to 5% already....</P> <P>last raid i have been taken out of the caster group and put to the MT/healer for power regen, although they had been fine on power all the time before. ironically i had chanceled breeze by accident (and the only reason i realized it was because i was the only one who has been constantly low on power). still the healers were happy and felt reassured as they had a mana-battery in group. :smileytongue:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Drus]

<DIV>Baro, to reply to your  <FONT color=#66ff66>"I was always under the impression that having my mana regen did crap when I was crafting........ Are you telling me that my mana regen will help while im crafting?"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>As far as i'm aware, when crafting the amount of power used in a buff is a percentage of your total power, this would mean that if you had, say 5000 power and a buff used 10% you would need to regen 500 to recover.  Certainly any regen u can use would help.  This is the reason a lot of TSers strip to remove the power added by their armour.  Obviously if your power is at 3000 (neg armour) then it is far quicker to regen 300 than 500.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also as far as i'm aware power regen from our buffs works in and out of combat, they just stipulate that a buff has an in combat regen component because combat suspends normal regen (ie from drink etc)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Charizma</DIV> <DIV>70 Illusionist</DIV> <DIV>OoFM</DIV> <DIV>Splitpaw</DIV>

[Impetus]

Yeah, strip yourself naked (really just take off any non-FT int gear or buffs), put on breeze, you probably won't even need to drink while you're crafting. If you do drink, and use savante/manastone/health to power spell, you won't ever run out of power while crafting. It's very nice.The reason it works is because the crafting skills that use power use a percentage of power pool, while drinks, items, breeze, health to power give back a set number of regen.

[Barobra]

I have always understood the percentage. I just didn't think a spell that says in-combat would work in and out of combat. :smileyhappy:

[auk]

I'm with Baro here... thought it in-combat meant in-combat exclusively. Huh.. learn something new every day I guess.This is off topic though.. just so you know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Barobra]

<div><blockquote><hr>auk wrote:I'm with Baro here... thought it in-combat meant in-combat exclusively. Huh.. learn something new every day I guess.This is off topic though.. just so you know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ya way off topic but did some testing and it is in and out of combat.</div>

[Snek6]

I believe our Dynamism proc justifies our raid presence as far as DPS is concerned. And I don't know about your raid force, but we definitely could use more power regen <STRIKE>classes</STRIKE> chars.<p>Message Edited by Snek666 on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span>

[auk]

Well I'll definitely be doing A LOT of parsing after the next LU to see how much dynamism/synergism helps us then. ATM it can actually count up to 1/3 of my dps (trash parses mostly tho so not necessarily representative). Mostly though I'll be comparing pre/post-patch parses of wizards and warlocks. I don't think its going to help them much either but we shall see.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Snek666 wrote: I believe our Dynamism proc justifies our raid presence as far as DPS is concerned. And I don't know about your raid force, but we definitely could use more power regen <STRIKE>classes</STRIKE> chars.<p>Message Edited by Snek666 on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span><hr></blockquote> It used to, but not anymore with the new proc change. More power regen classes? Nah.

[Belizarius]

<P>To be coldly rational about it, I am now finding it very difficult to justify my presence on a raid, ahead of almost any other class.  I now contribute little more than power regen, and that simply isn't worth it.</P> <P>Sure Troubs' DPS was nerfed too, but they can still contribute a decent set of buffs/debuffs as well as regen, we cannot.</P> <P>We have now lost pretty much everything we gained from LU13.</P> <P>The level cap will be 70 for some time to come (no new levels slated for  the November expansion), so raiding will become a bigger part of the game for many.</P> <P>Time to re-roll, guys?</P>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belizarius wrote:<BR> <P>To be coldly rational about it, I am now finding it very difficult to justify my presence on a raid, ahead of almost any other class.  I now contribute little more than power regen, and that simply isn't worth it.</P> <P>Sure Troubs' DPS was nerfed too, but they can still contribute a decent set of buffs/debuffs as well as regen, we cannot.</P> <P>We have now lost pretty much everything we gained from LU13.</P> <P>The level cap will be 70 for some time to come (no new levels slated for  the November expansion), so raiding will become a bigger part of the game for many.</P> <P>Time to re-roll, guys?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Re-roll?  Its time to stop paying SOE for their ignorance.  Its time to /cancel.  If they wont listen to that they wont listen to nothing.

[Belizarius]

<P>Rationally, you're right.  Except there's so few of us less that they will hardly notice anyway.</P> <P>Besides which, I'm addicted.  TV sucks, there's nothing else around that appeals to me as a game right now, and I have lots of friends and a great guild in-game.</P> <P>It's really not such a bad game if you stick to one of Tank, Healer or DPS.</P><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:04 PM</span>

[Aedos]

<DIV>Played illusionist since day one but retired him recently. I see no future for this class we give way too much dps AND utility for being able to do little cc which doesnt have much meaning in this game, especially not in raiding, and can be done by tons of other classes if needed badly. Was feeling like an idiot for always waiting for something to save us lu13, "enchanter review", next expansion pack, etc. I think KoS has showed the direction awaiting chanters well enough.</DIV>

[Sarkoris]

<P>I am in the same guild as the OP (/wave Lolth). We have a pretty decent raid force with at least 1 of just about every class available to raid on any given day.  What really upsets me is that a class (Enchanter) that was so vital in EQ1 on raids has been bereft of its main purpose (CC) in EQ 2 form (Illusionist/Coercer). I play one of those DPS mages (Necromancer) and although the playstyle is not quite the same as EQ1 the basics are the same. This was true of the Enchanter in EQ2 during T5 then it seems to have lost the plot to the point that Epic mobs have been made immune to Stifle/Mezz etc and even their power pools have been made so ridiculously large that power draining is a joke. And even if you could somehow drain the epic power most of their really damaging skills are innate now and require no power to use.</P> <P>What I would like to see is a return to the days of crowd control playing an important part of raids. Say a typical raid boss mob encounter these days is a boss mob, with say 2-3 epic bodyguards/ being true epics they are immune to most Enchanter specific spells.</P> <P>How about replace 1-2 of the true epic bodyguards with 5-6 non true epic bodyguards. They still pose the same threat as the 2-3 big guys but instead some have to be offtanked, and some can be mezzed. To me this requires more skill to implement and tactics/strategy to learn and implemtn than the automatic cant mezz anything so lets off tank the adds and kill them 1 at a time while the MT keeps the boss mob busy.</P> <P>Sorry to derail this thread but to me the problem should not with you guys trying to maximize your dps (though its commendable to try and maximise whatever role you can presently do), but rather on SOE to define a better role for you on raids gthat fits the style you chose the class for (utility and crowd control).</P> <P>You guys and gals have this Necros support to push for a return to your true calling and not being made into some hybrid.</P> <P>Sark.</P>

[Barobra]

Was parsing myself last night after the proc change as well. Definatley a difference. Procs were about 5% of my total damage now. And I have 4 of them.

[Pins]

I was still able to break 1000 DPS last night on some single encounters with the proc changes. My overall DPS didn't feel that badly hurt from where it was. Of course I went from only having 2 proc items, to a 3rd proc item(Fitzpitle's Misty Protector is awesome) that does 300-1000 damage on a 10% chance. But that could have improved my DPS enough to overcome the proc changes. Of course, I have now respeced to AGI(4-4-4-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/INT(4-4-4-5-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> from AGI(4-5-4-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/STA(4-4-8-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> to see how much DPS I can put out.Oh and crafting for a good proc belt == crap :

[Barobra]

<DIV>Where does the misty protector come from?</DIV>

[Flipmode]

claymore qstline...2nd to last reward I believe.

[auk]

I didn't get a lot of data last night since we were just questing in SoS so I just don't know. All relatively short fights, so not a real good data point, but here is what I saw anyway: I looked mostly at Synergism, which was really streaky. Some fights it did not proc at all, and the highest it accounted for the entire night was about 12% of my dps (master 1 synergism). Most fights it procced 1-2 times out of ~15-20 hostile spells cast. Thats without taking Prismatic Chaos out of the equation. The fact that that particular line doesn't proc at all anymore really hurts.<div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Using godking weap, the collection proc earring, and the bone clapsed girdle, and having a wizzie and troub in group.....my single target DPS dropped from a 1.25k average (1.4 high) to an 800 average (930 high).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And since our raids are usually alot more hage-heavy than they really should be, we noticed a HUGE decrease in DPS raid-wide...to the point where it hurt us. It was a bad nerf for everyone :/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think from now on ima stick myself in with some melee, haste seems to be alot better than synergism :/</DIV>

[Belizarius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarkoris wrote:<BR> <P>Sorry to derail this thread but to me the problem should not with you guys trying to maximize your dps (though its commendable to try and maximise whatever role you can presently do), but rather on SOE to define a better role for you on raids gthat fits the style you chose the class for (utility and crowd control).</P> <P>You guys and gals have this Necros support to push for a return to your true calling and not being made into some hybrid.</P> <P>Sark.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Most of us would agree with you Sark.  But we lobbied for this.  For months.  Instead, all we got was a bit more DPS, which has now been nerfed leaving us scratching our heads.</P> <P>I've played my Illusionist, hoping he would one day have a real role, since the day the game was released.  For a lot of that time, I was the only Enchanter in my guild (Aurora Australis on Najena, /wave Allure).  He's level 63 now, and frankly I think I will just level him up to 70 so I can still attend raids with my mates, then start levelling a Monk to replace him.  (Why Monk?  Only because my guild is critically short of Brawlers).</P> <P>Until my Monk is raid-worthy, I see my role on raids as</P> <P>power-regen (I guess I'll take Epiphany M2 as my TO)</P> <P>and a 2nd rate pet class.  I'll be making my personae Adept III minimum, or Master if I can find one, and trotting him out for raids, it seems to be the best use I have for those 3 conc slots, got to be better than buffing people.</P> <P>Edit:  I just thought of something to add to the bug list.</P> <P>"Bug - it is <EM><STRONG>still</STRONG> </EM>possible to choose Illusionist as a choice of class at character creation.  This is obviously not intended and should be removed."<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 PM</span>

[1ARACE]

<DIV>What makes you effecient in T7 raids?  I've read all the prior posts, even all the [Removed for Content] contests about DPS.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The chronomancer route is great for raids.  Synergism M2 is great for raids.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually leave hasting melee DPS to bards.  Usually run Synergism on 3-5 mages.  Flip the group buffs in and out if needed (for resists or more INT if no one else in group has group INT buff).  With chronomancing you lead off with Momentary Sentiment (which instantly puts you at fastest casting, assuming your AGI line topped out), and then start rotating Tribulation/Devour Hope and Brainburst to each of the mobs in the encounter. Toss some AE's to help shave HP on the encounter, toss out Prismatic Havoc for MT, send out Contruct of Reason, check everyones power, dump Mana Flow on someone, Devitalizing Stare/Savante if needed.  Rinse, repeat.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our main focus is not personal DPS, but rather debuffing and keeping others power up.  If you have the mages in your group, it's like a barrage of never ending artillery fire on target with you boosting stats, keeping power up and adding spell bonus damage...given your mages are responsible enough to maintain their aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, I walk away feeling I pulled my weight on T7 raids.  Extra debuffs to offensive skills and magic in the raid are always nice, and enhancing the capabilites of your fellow mages are rewarding as well.  For granted there is not much in the CC dept for us, except a few encounters that if you didn't have it, would be pretty darn hard.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to DPS play a more DPS oriented mage, Illusionist are a utility class...and it's your challenge to find where you can most efficiently use your utilities to maximize the benefit of others in group/raid.</DIV>

[Barobra]

The question is how much does sentiment really help if most mages cap their int without you?

[Kuragi]

It seems to me that part of the DPS issue is with the parsers.  Not that they are broken, but a good deal of the contribution to the overall damage of the group/raid isn't correctly attributed to you. Dynamism, for example.  Dumbfire pets (unless you use the name trick) damage isn't.  Haste isn't.  And then somebody posts their quick parse to chat and the illusionist looks bad in comparison.  Why do I say they aren't broken?  Because there's no way that they could correctly attribute the damage of Dynamism, the damage is logged as belonging to the target.  Of course, the aggro is logged that way, too, that's what's so great about it.  The proc nerfs made these less effective, but getting that data is very difficult.  Wouldn't it be nice if some change could be made to the log so that procs like this could be correctly attributed?  It would make it easier to sort things out.    <div></div>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuragi wrote:<BR>It seems to me that part of the DPS issue is with the parsers.  Not that they are broken, but a good deal of the contribution to the overall damage of the group/raid isn't correctly attributed to you. Dynamism, for example.  Dumbfire pets (unless you use the name trick) damage isn't.  Haste isn't.  And then somebody posts their quick parse to chat and the illusionist looks bad in comparison.  <BR><BR>Why do I say they aren't broken?  Because there's no way that they could correctly attribute the damage of Dynamism, the damage is logged as belonging to the target.  Of course, the aggro is logged that way, too, that's what's so great about it.  <BR><BR>The proc nerfs made these less effective, but getting that data is very difficult.  Wouldn't it be nice if some change could be made to the log so that procs like this could be correctly attributed?  It would make it easier to sort things out.  <BR>  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is true. Yet with ACT you can figure out how much total dmg you contributed with dynamism on multiple targets. And with proc changes it doesn't look to good.

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuragi wrote:<BR>It seems to me that part of the DPS issue is with the parsers.  Not that they are broken, but a good deal of the contribution to the overall damage of the group/raid isn't correctly attributed to you. Dynamism, for example.  Dumbfire pets (unless you use the name trick) damage isn't.  Haste isn't.  And then somebody posts their quick parse to chat and the illusionist looks bad in comparison.  <BR><BR>Why do I say they aren't broken?  Because there's no way that they could correctly attribute the damage of Dynamism, the damage is logged as belonging to the target.  Of course, the aggro is logged that way, too, that's what's so great about it.  <BR><BR>The proc nerfs made these less effective, but getting that data is very difficult.  Wouldn't it be nice if some change could be made to the log so that procs like this could be correctly attributed?  It would make it easier to sort things out.  <BR>  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Illusionists look bad on parses?!  What parses are you looking at?  Because i'm always up high enough that I look good, considering.

[Kuragi]

I'm just wondering, has anyone tried out using the Strength AA line in raids?  Pretty early on you get a melee strike that interrupts.  It doesn't say anything about not working on Epics, so maybe you can interrupt Epics?  It also seems to hit for pretty decent damage, and recycles pretty fast.  It might be a nice little boost to DPS too. And after the STR boost, maybe I could spend more than 10 minutes hunting before I go overweight. <div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuragi wrote:<BR>I'm just wondering, has anyone tried out using the Strength AA line in raids?  Pretty early on you get a melee strike that interrupts.  It doesn't say anything about not working on Epics, so maybe you can interrupt Epics?  It also seems to hit for pretty decent damage, and recycles pretty fast.  It might be a nice little boost to DPS too.<BR><BR>And after the STR boost, maybe I could spend more than 10 minutes hunting before I go overweight.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Most epic mobs are already interrupted to hell and beyond by other classes.  Not to mention that most spells that actually hurt have a 0s cast time.

[Nupr]

<DIV>The last ability in the strength line appears to have a 10s duration that counters a magical damage spell.  Been curious about it myself.  Probably is selective like spellshield though which is why I never bothered with it.</DIV>

[Somna]

<blockquote><hr>Nupren wrote:<div>The last ability in the strength line appears to have a 10s duration that counters a magical damage spell.  Been curious about it myself.  Probably is selective like spellshield though which is why I never bothered with it.</div><hr></blockquote> From when I used it, the magical damage spell has to hit -you- in order to get countered.  You will see a nice "Countered" message floating up when it works.  I am not sure if it can counter an AE, but I never really tried.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Nupren wrote:<DIV>The last ability in the strength line appears to have a 10s duration that counters a magical damage spell.  Been curious about it myself.  Probably is selective like spellshield though which is why I never bothered with it.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Yep, it's exactly like spellshield in the fact that ignores most abilities that you'd want to have countered. Which means, it's useless <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[auk]

It can be fun against mobs with dumbfire and swarm pets though... only reason I use it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>